Polygamy Apologetics, Spiritual Wifery, etc
Original Air Date: 2022-11-17
Here is a detailed summary of the video "Polygamy Apologetics: Calling it 'Spiritual Wifery' & more," based on the provided transcript.
Overview and Context
This video is the sixth and final installment of a series on polygamy within the "LDS Discussions" project, hosted by John Dehlin on the Mormon Stories Podcast 1. The discussion features Mike, the author of the LDS Discussions essays, and Alicia, a commentator known as "Faith Unraveled" on TikTok 1, 2. The episode focuses on analyzing the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints’ best apologetic arguments—primarily those found in the official Gospel Topics Essays—and reconciling them with the historical record and modern implications of the doctrine 3, 4.
The "New and Everlasting Covenant" and John Taylor’s 1886 Revelation
A central theme of the discussion is the definition of the "New and Everlasting Covenant." Modern apologists often argue that this term refers to celestial marriage broadly, rather than polygamy specifically, to distance the modern Church from the practice 5. However, the hosts present an 1886 revelation from the third prophet, John Taylor, which explicitly links the covenant to "the works of Abraham" (polygamy) 6.
"Spiritual Wifery" vs. Plural Marriage
The video analyzes the Church's attempt to distinguish Joseph Smith’s "plural marriage" from the "spiritual wifery" practiced by John C. Bennett 12.
Carefully Worded Denials and Honesty
The discussion highlights the Church’s admission that leaders used "carefully worded denials" regarding polygamy 18.
The "Reluctant Polygamist" and the Angel with a Sword
A common apologetic narrative is that Joseph Smith was a reluctant participant who only practiced polygamy because an angel with a drawn sword threatened to destroy him 22.
Dynastic Sealings and the Law of Sarah
The video addresses the argument that Joseph’s marriages—particularly to already married women (polyandry)—were for "dynastic sealings" to link families rather than for romance or sex 26.
Modern Implications and Conclusion
The series concludes by emphasizing that polygamy is not merely historical but remains current doctrine 31.
To summarize the central argument of the video using an analogy: The hosts suggest that the Church's defense of Joseph Smith is like a man caught cheating who claims he didn't lie because he used a different definition of "relationship," while simultaneously claiming an angel forced him to do it, and that his wife had a "choice" to agree or be destroyed.
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hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon stories podcast I am your host John delin it's November 10th 2022 and we are uh today in episode number 29 of our epic series uh with Mike from LDS discussions covering Mormon church truth claims in as neutral and as dispassionate of a tone and as an approach as we possibly can for those of you who uh who are new or just joining us in the middle of this series uh there's this amazing website called ldsdiscussions.com where you can find a bunch of really important valuable footnoted essays that uh provide you with the information you need to understand more mature truth claims we are uh in part six of a six-part series within the series on polygamy so we're in the final episode covering polygamy we'll be talking about uh giving you an overview of what you've missed just to kind of summarize but today we're doing part six which is called polygamy apologetics and conclusions and the essay for today's episode can be found at ldsdiscus.com polygamy Dash final before we actually um jump into the content for today I just want to remind everybody there's a lot of people who have asked uh you know of course LDS discussions episodes are integrated into the Mormon stories podcast feeds on both Spotify and apple podcast and on YouTube or wherever you uh consume your podcasts for Mormon stories but a lot of you have expressed the desire either for yourself or for loved ones to be able to uh watch or listen to all these episodes back to back without all the other Mormon stories episodes integrated in and so for that purpose please know we do have a Spotify dedicated podcast feed for LDS discussions that you can search uh in Spotify and you can listen to or view those episodes in Spotify because Spotify allows video now and then if you just want to view the YouTube videos in sequence you can also do that um through the LDS discussions playlist on the Mormon stories podcast YouTube channel and of course that Spotify uh uh playlist can also be found in apple podcast so that is uh that is what we're doing today and um we're excited to welcome back to our program Mike who's the author of the LDS discussions that says hey Mike hey everybody thanks for joining us it's good to be back finish up on polygamy are you done with polygamy or are you uh excited for to get one more crack at it which one is it I guess both I mean it's such an important topic so you want to make sure you cover it in a good way and this just doing these like six episodes with you makes me understand why um Lindsey Hansen Park has over a hundred because it really we're we're not getting into the weeds like you'll see with like year of polygamy and um it's just it's such a it's just a messy topic and it's really important to understand the history behind it um especially today against the way it's framed and the way we were all taught that polygamy was so I'm not necessarily I mean I'm I think we'll be I think everybody listening to these episodes will probably be good to get a break from and after this episode but at the same time I feel like it's important um to to give it the the six episode treatment to make sure that we cover as much ground as we can and to make sure we're giving Fair coverage to what the church says as well absolutely and I've been getting amazing feedback on this entire series and the the mini series of polygamy and on that note we are so thrilled to have back uh an LDS discussions Superstar Alicia hey Alicia I'm so excited to be here I really appreciate being able to come on and give my commentary I'm really just still such a Learner in this department um but I love this topic it continues to fascinate me polygamy is one of those things that I feel like has um my lens has changed since I've gotten older I've I'm a lifelong member Seventh Generation Mormon as I've mentioned before and I don't know if it's just parenting having young adults and teenagers of my own I don't know my lens for um the history of Mormon polygamy has really changed and so I'm I just it can't continues to fascinate me even after deconstructing my faith and I'm just so impressed with the work that Mike has done here so anyway thank you for having me I'm excited to take part in the conversation today learn a little more yeah and it's our pleasure and and the from the comments Alicia people are loving your feedback so we're really hoping to get you back further episodes of Mormon stories and and for LDS discussions as well I appreciate that I adore this community I just have such a passion for connecting with this community I just love it so much so thanks John and I think it's worth mentioning Alicia that you are a tick talker and your Tick Tock channel can be found at Faith unraveled on Tick Tock is that right yeah absolutely I love to talk about deconstructing Mormonism so yeah all right so make sure and check out Alicia okay so uh so Mike we are going to begin by recapping our first five episodes on polygamy for those who either could benefit from a summary or who are joining us kind of mid-stream and didn't get the benefit of the first five so why don't you take that away yeah and so just a really quick recap to talk about what we had done in the first five episodes because it's going to all tie back into today um since this is going to be somewhat of a summary in looking at the church's apologetic so we started by looking at the timeline of polygamy and how that impacts the production of Doctrine and Covenants 132 because it doesn't come until 1843 which is gonna really the the Revelation is not recorded until long after Joseph is already practicing polygamy for years we look at what the claimed 1831 revelation of polygmy actually talks about um and why it has nothing to do um with what we have today is DNC 132 two and that's going to play a role as we look at the Apologetics because the church needs to push it back to 1831 and as we talked about the Revelation was about taking wives and concubines of the Native Americans in order to make their children and I'm using this as a quote white and delightsome um Joseph Smith we talked about how he produced DNC 132 in one sitting Hiram had requested that Joseph used his peeps sheer stone or the urban Thundermans the church likes to call it today um and Joseph did not use it and just rolled off the entire 3000 plus word revelation in one sitting which has a lot of implications for his ability to create scripture as we've talked about in the production of the Book of Mormon um we talked about the wording of Doctrine and Covenants 132 the implication it has for believing members today because this is still Doctrine um the implications for mixed Faith marriages and how Joseph Smith broke almost all of the specific rules that were set forth in the um revelation of dnc-132 uh we spent two episodes looking at the some of the polygamous and polyandris proposals that Joseph Smith made to his followers um the patterns that we saw within them and then our last episode kind of covered um what I find to be one of the most important documents on polygamy that there is which is Joseph Smith's um happiness letter to Nancy Rigdon and how that ties into DNC 132 I love it and if I can just recap and this is as dispassionately as I can if I can recap the most important elements of polygamy and some of this is going to be repetition um but it's it's basically that that Joseph Smith's first polygamous relationship was with Fannie Alger and even Oliver cowdery himself called it an affair um Emma considered it considered it an affair and that's how it begins and and that happened before the ceiling power and before DNC 132 were you know they were just twinkles in Joseph's eye at that point so that's deeply problematic the fact that that Joseph Smith had 22 wives uh before he ever actually got sealed to Emma before DNC 132 was ever received that's deeply problematic he was lying about it um publicly and he was marrying other men's wives which is polyandry he was marrying 14 15 16 year old girls sister parents mother daughter Paris um there's just there's just and it was it was the undoing of the church because when William law a first counselor in the in the first presidency or a counselor in the first presidency found out about it he published a newspaper calling Joseph Smith on it and that led to Joseph asking for the commanding that the printing press be destroyed which is what led Joseph to be incarcerated in in Carthage Jail so you know these are all just some of the problems along with I think just what we covered about his patterns for propositioning young girls which included coercion threats promises and pressure um and you know threatening that angels will kill him in in in ways that in any other context as you like to say Mike would be considered uh very highly manipulative especially when you consider the power differentials between Joseph and all these 13 14 I'm sorry 14 15 16 Euro girls foster children you know that were entrusted to his care Alicia any other any other kind of points that stick out for you from the past few episodes that we haven't highlighted well for today's episode I I kind of spent the week reviewing some of the apologetic points and I really appreciated a position that Laura Hales took she said um I don't want someone to tell me what to think about polygamy I want to come to my own conclusions and I think that's such a beautiful and fair stance to take um obviously the three of us have come to our own conclusions we're all deconstructed Mormons um and uh but I do think that that's a really fair position people are going to come to different conclusions I think what's important here is the information that we know um we have some things that we know for sure some things that are still um sort of theoretical and then you also have your subjective lens through which you're viewing things and as I mentioned before that has changed for me as I've gotten older I think our life experience really informs our view of these um of these stories and this information so anyway I think that would be just maybe a nice position to take for today's episode just everyone is entitled to draw their own conclusion I think that's the same perspective yeah absolutely okay Mike Where Do We Go From Here do we go to the next slide yeah so now we're just going to kind of talk really quickly about what we're going to cover today um because this one you know we've covered a lot of the main points of polygamy in the first five episodes and we've covered some of the apologetic arguments as we've gone through it uh but now I think it's important to go through and look at the church's best Arguments for um what Joseph Smith was doing with with Mormon polygamy um to see how it lines up to what we've covered and what the historical record says um and and just because of that we're gonna have a little bit of overlap and so when we cover something we've covered in a previous episode we'll just note that we've already talked about it in more depth there so we'll cover it quickly here but let you know where you can look if you're if you haven't watched those previous episodes um and we'll focus mostly on the church's gospel topics essay on um polygamy and Kirtland and Nauvoo because those are what the church considers to be the best arguments um to defend what Joseph Smith was doing with polygamy and I think that that is for us the best place to start which is straight from an official release from the church search and then we'll we'll kind of finish by looking at the modern day implications of Mormon polygamy because as we've been saying throughout these episodes this is still Doctrine and so it's really important to to understand that you know when the church kind of says you know someone will say oh I'm so glad I didn't have to live through polygamy um I always kind of laugh in inside because it's like well you don't for right now but you're going to for eternity so maybe you'll avoid it for say 80 years but then you're gonna you know in theory under church doctrine be living in it you know for millions of years so um all of these things are really important to kind of wrapping up this topic and uh the first thing I want to do before we get into the Apologetics is to look at John Taylor's 1886 Revelation on plugging me because this is one I didn't know about for a long time okay so yeah let's talk about that that's important and I yeah this one's important for I think a lot a lot of reasons especially because it gives us some insight into how profits work within the church but um this is something where this is a revelation that John Taylor recorded uh from God because he was asking God about polygamy because remember at this time John Taylor is effectively on the run from the law and the government is threatening the church over polygamy and so John Taylor's trying to figure out what to do because of course he's a very big you know uh supporter of Mormon polygamy um but at the same time he realizes you know that he is also in a horrible situation and so um this is John Taylor asking God if they could end polygamy uh which at the time was synonymous with the new and Everlasting Covenant because in the early church the new and Everlasting Covenant was polygamy and so this Revelation is really important because God in the voice of God answers that question okay and so if we go to the next verse we'll read the actual text of the Revelation I just want to show that the image because that is um I believe the the story is that I think there's was written down and given to seven different people um and so they all had copies of this Revelation and this is obviously very important to um polygamous offshoots today um but as we'll talk about this is not something that is necessarily um controversial as far as being John Taylor's Revelation I think most even most apologists will agree that this this is a legitimate document all right so yeah the the third Prophet or president of the Mormon Church in 1886 received a revelation on polygamy and we're going to now hear what it says let's do it yep so this is this is revelation that John Taylor uh claims is directly from God and it says my son John you have asked me concerning the new and Everlasting Covenant how far it is bonding binding upon my people thus saith the Lord all commandments that I give must be obeyed by those calling themselves by my name unless they are revoked by me or by my authority and how can I revoke an Everlasting Covenant for I the Lord am Everlasting in my Everlasting covenants cannot be abrogated nor done away with but they stand forever have I not given my word in great plainness on the subject you have not great numbers of my people or sorry Yet have not great numbers of my people have been negligent in the observance of my law and the keeping of my Commandments and yet have I born with them these many years and this because of their weakness because of the perilous times and furthermore it is more pleasing to me that men should use their free agency in regard to these matters nevertheless I the Lord do not change in my word and my covenants and my law do not and as I have here 2 4 said by my servant Joseph all those who would enter into my glory must and shall obey my law and and have I not commanded men that if they were Abraham's seed and would enter into my glory they must do the works of Abraham I have not revoked this law nor will I for it is Everlasting and those who will enter into my glory must obey the conditions thereof even so amen so Alicia I'm just curious if you're willing to share come put in your Orthodox Mormon lens on what's interesting to you about about reading hearing or reading that text of John Taylor's revelation well I think if you are an orthodox member of the church and you believe that John Taylor was a prophet of God I really do think this Revelation regarding polygamy introduces a complex challenge because in this revelation God seems so Resolute and not doing away with polygamy and keep in mind John Taylor is a shared Prophet with even the flds today and I believe most of the modern polygamous Mormon groups um and this is something that they still point to so and I just want to capture the gravity of this statement knowing that God would in fact change his mind a few years later so so the words how can I revoke an Everlasting Covenant for I the Lord am Everlasting and my Everlasting covenants cannot be abrogated nor done away with but they stand forever so the records of John Taylor they are still used today by flds in their defense of polygamy today and I think it's also worth noting that they they view the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the great apostates because we moved away from this principle so anyway I think to answer your question I think that for orthodox members of this church um it presents a a complex challenge [Laughter] yeah they're they're not not to pick on Joseph Smith but like there were certain things that Joseph was really clear about let's just pick that you know Independence Missouri was going to be the Gathering point in in preparation for the coming of Jesus that's what everyone was working for and in another example is DNC 132 the new and Everlasting Covenant it's kind of amazing how much of a stake Joseph Smith put in the ground only to have the church kind of turn away from from what I think what were key doctrines I mean the whole Gathering and the New Jerusalem and stuff that's in one of the Articles of Faith right I mean it's in the Articles of Faith because it's like Central to Mormonism and and that just shows how short our memories can be or how flexible religions can be because something can be a clear stake in the ground essential Central to the church's Doctrine and then all of a sudden fast forward 10 20 or 30 years and nobody even remembers it or thinks about it anymore I think we also I think we can also tend to overlook the fact that we don't I I don't think a lot of members realize how many members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints uh move into a space of fundamentalism because of this Doctrine because they are convinced that this is what we were supposed to be doing and um that was the case with my grandfather and so deconstructing this stuff has really given me personally a new lens for those who have moved into a position of fundamentalism now I personally this is what sort of um propelled my deconstruction because I viewed it something more like along the lines of the Branch Davidians or another religion a religious organization of that nature but for some who are really devout Mormons they dig into this stuff and there is just so much compelling evidence that polygamy was was intended as something uh that was to be continued um during this lifetime and the next so I I think it's really important to look at it just doesn't make a lot of sense that Joseph would do something so severe literally give his life for it I think there's probably no credible faithful Mormon church historian who wouldn't agree that in the end he gave his life for polygamy that the Saints endured so much adversity as a result of it and there was so much persecution why in the world would it be done if it was just meant to be uh ended and and our backs turned from it it just doesn't make any sense to me yeah absolutely and we talked about this in one of our previous episodes but you know one of the things about uh like the Mormon version of God is that the Mormon version of God is really powerless when the Situation's around the church are out of their control and in this case you see that John Taylor at this point feels like he's got enough control over the church where he can have the voice of God confirm what John Taylor wanted which is to continue polygamy because that's what John Taylor was a big proponent of um then all of a sudden as we're going to see just in what four years after this this uh Revelation all of a sudden the church is going to stop polygamy because they are powerless to stop it and the Mormon version of God is powerless to change the government's mind or to protect them in any uh real way and to me it just shows more about how all the prophets of the church are going to get Revelations that confirm what they want and we've detailed this before with Joseph Smith and we'll detail it more we've got three episodes on Revelation coming up um but at the same time the actual power that comes from those Revelations is always absent and so um it just shows Once you lose control of the situation all of a sudden the revelations don't work anymore Mike I just realized that I may not we may not have covered one really essential part about polygamy and I don't think I saw it in the slides for today do we have slides on post Manifesto polygamy in today's episode no so go ahead no I was to say for the purpose of the overview I kind of tried to keep it contained to Joseph Smith um and this is one of those areas where I've had I don't know enough about post uh Manifesto polygamy to really do a whole lot with it outside of just some of the overarching you know main themes so I didn't put one in there I know that's something people do want to see more of if it's okay I'm just gonna just because I if our listeners or viewers are expecting to kind of get a really good overview let me just talk about post Manifesto plug me really really quick yeah um so yeah so so basically as I understand it Joseph Smith gave all all his all the members of the church an impression that Jesus was going to be coming by around 1890. whatever there's been some some suggestions or some Revelations that basically said that if Joseph lived to a certain age by that point Jesus would have come and so there was kind of this expectation within Mormonism you know it's called The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for a reason that's another one of the doctrines that has kind of been abandoned is this idea that Jesus is coming any day now um which couples with the um the Independence Missouri and the New Jerusalem kind of teaching but but if you look at 19th century Mormonism between 1830 and 1890 they're just waiting for Jesus to come much like the Jehovah's Witnesses were and they were even kind of lots of speculation as to what dates um once the federal government really started pressing down on uh church leaders once they moved to Utah to try and Stamp Out polygamy I think uh Wilford um you know Brigham Young obviously wasn't going to let go of polygamy he had like 50 whatever wives um uh John and so Joe Smith oh yeah and then once Brigham Young dies and they'd sort of passed the point where Jesus was supposed to come and then John Taylor comes as well he's getting this Revelation the polygamy is new and everlasting but then by the time Wilford Woodruff comes and it's around 1890 they're just like yeah I don't think Jesus is coming and if we don't get rid of this polygamy or at least create the impression that we got rid of polygamy then it's gonna it's gonna mean the end of the church as as we know it and so Wilford Woodruff has to thread this needle of and plus I think the Utah territories wanted statehood you know and so Wilford Woodruff had to thread this needle of how do we communicate to the U.S federal government that we've stopped polygamy so that they can stop putting us in jail and let us become a legitimate state but then what do we do with all these Revelations and assurances that polygamy is Everlasting and so he kind of did two things he issued a Manifesto in 1890 saying okay hey hey World hey Mormons everyone we're giving up polygamy and that's what's known as the first Manifesto as I understand it right but then what he also did is behind the scenes you know they like send a bunch of Mormons to Canada send a bunch of Mormons to Mexico and what they did is behind the scenes they're like hey hey Quorum of the 12 in first presidency let's keep practicing polygamy let's just do it in Mexico do it in in Canada and then you know we'll do it sometimes here in the United States but we'll just keep it really secret and so what we have is the church literally deceiving the world and members of the first presidency and or Quorum of The Twelve continuing to sanction plural marriage all the way up until like the the you know 1905-ish time frame so for 15 years the church was deceiving the world about its continued practice of polygamy and and the government figured that out and eventually they were they were you know the Smoot hearings as I understand it were were the the U.S Senate putting Mormons on trial saying that you're still practicing polygamy and that you're lying to everybody about it and then finally um the the Mormon church had to issue a second Manifesto which was basically saying okay now for real for real we're going to start um stop polygamy and at that point they actually had to excommunicate as I understand it X communicates certain Apostles that wouldn't go along with the cessation of polygamy because they they believed rightly so that past Mormon prophets had taught that this was a new and Everlasting Covenant that's what it was called in DNC 132 and so even Mormon apostles had to be excommunicated for their unwillingness to let polygamy go and that's a really important part of Mormon polygamous history um not to throw shade on the church but just to share objectively that the Mormon Church deceived the world for another 15 years after it promised to stop polygamy and most members don't know that there was a second Manifesto which was required to really stop it and um and I think Michael Quinn was actually excommunicated in part not just for early you know you know his folk magic research but also because he chronicled a list of all the post-manifesto polygamous marriages that he could find and included you know the instances where Apostles sanctioned the post Manifesto polygamy so Mike tell me if if that came close to getting it right based on your understanding if there's anything you want to correct no I mean I think that's good I think to me the the biggest tell in all of that is the fact that the leaders of the church the prophets of the church fully believe that DNC 132 was the Everlasting law and that's why they fought so hard to hide it from the government that's why they after the first you know they call it now what official declaration one right and so they release it and like you said we'll we'll actually that part is in one of the slides Wilford Woodruff is going to take another wife so the prophet of the church is going to make this official declaration saying we're done with polygamy then he's going to take another wife and so it tells you that these leaders of the church fully believe that polygamy is Doctrine for eternity and it really to me shows that when they lost control of the situation they tried to do what is usually referred to as like lying for the Lord see light of the government try to get them off your back so you can do it quietly um but at the same time the idea that that God ended polygamy as the church likes to say today is absolutely completely rejected by the actions of the people who are giving these declarations the people who gave these declarations knew full well that this this was the new and Everlasting Covenant that could not end and so that's part of what we're going to do with this apologetic is to look at kind of the almost like the the public relations word game that the church often does um when they have to make changes so that members don't realize that these huge parts of their Doctrine have been changed and they don't understand because they weren't taught it because now we've we're teaching a whole different version of whether it's you know racism or sexism or you know why people's uh skin got turned dark uh for the Native Americans all of those things are what makes up the scriptures of the church and the doctrine of the church and yet today like you said they'll kind of tell you like oh no polygamy is done it's like no no it's not done at all and the current prophet of the church certainly doesn't believe that's true so why should you Alicia anything you want to add about post Manifesto polygamy I think it's dead curious to hear what Mike has dug up on that I was raised being taught that our ancestors or people were sent to like Arizona and Colonial Juarez in Mexico um because they're they had to keep the families intact but it was against the law so they had to keep the laws of the land so they were you know setting up these colonies outside of the U.S um but I think it would be a great episode I think a lot of the listeners could probably probably have some ancestral connections to those groups so I think it would definitely be worth looking into all right hold on yeah looks like we're doing the seventh polygamy episode we may have to do one down the road I know um you know um I'll give a quick shout out to the Sunstone History Podcast which Lindsey Hansen parked us with Brian Buchanan and they've been doing they did a lot with um they're they're into the Utah period now and I know they're going to be doing a lot with that too so um obviously Lindsay knows way more about that than I do um but it's it's running it's Brian's brilliant as well their podcast is great and um for someone like me who just loves like listening just straight history stuff it's great and not only is it a great podcast but they do do it with a tone that is kind of like not making fun of anything but it's more kind of not humorous but a light tone but covering a lot of stuff that is obviously not necessarily uh you know easy to digest so um I love what they're doing and so I'll try to learn from them so we could do a a podcast down the road on them because I know it's an important element of polygamy um and this might sound kind of weird but for me when I was doing the overview it was more like once you realize this stuff isn't from God then what happens after isn't necessarily like showing the church isn't true as much as it's just not it's showing areas where the church hasn't been good um which is something we need to cover I just didn't do it in this overview oh that's great all right well let's go ahead and jump to the next slide which is the new and Everlasting Covenant is polygamy yeah and so this is one of those things I hear all the time even in 2022 where you mentioned how the new and Everlasting Covenant is polygamy and people say no no no new and Everlasting Covenant is Celestial marriage polygamy is polygamy or I guess they would say plural marriage is plural marriage and this is where this Revelation to me is so excuse me so important because can I can I tease this out a little bit yeah of course I understand it when anybody does a cold reading of DNC 132 the polygamy Revelation it's horrific um but I as I understand it Church apologists try and tease out polygamy from the new new and Everlasting Covenant as a way to justify the cessation of polygamy because because if if you if you read dc-132 and you think of polygamy as being the same as the new and Everlasting Covenant then there's then it's codified in scripture canonized scripture that polygamy should have never ended so the the apologetic need is to tease out the two and say oh no no when when DNC 132 talks about the new and Everlasting Covenant that's some broader thing about ceilings and eternal families or even dynastic ceilings I don't know if they get into that but that's separate from like what they talk about later in the chapter or in the section which is all that weird polygamy stuff that we've abandoned is that is that why we're talking about this Mike yeah I mean that's the thing we talked about in the DNC 132 episodes what they'll say is well the Revelation is kind of like two Revelations one is on Celestial marriage and the second half sound polygamy but when you read the text of DM c132 that's not at all what is happening it's just that dnc-132 starts out and says here's a new one Everlasting Covenant here's a bunch of really nice uplifting stuff and then boom here's the hard stuff and so um to your point if if you had said when I mean when Joseph Smith was profit this was all secret so you wouldn't really say that out loud but when Brigham Young was prophet if you had said hey Brigham um the new and Everlasting Covenant is Celestial marriage and polygamy is not so when you tell me I can't get into um the Celestial Kingdom without polygamy you're full of crap you'd be chased out by the day Nights by by Nightfall like this is not how any of the early members believed it because the early prophets the ones who wrote it Joseph Smith and the ones who were around him absolutely knew the new and Everlasting Covenant is polygamy and so to what you're saying and what to Alicia said um the reason that offshoots view the the the brighamite Churchill you know Church of Jesus Christ the Latter-Day Saints his apostates is because by a cold reading by reading DNC 132 by looking at John Taylor's Revelation they're right the this is a church that is fall on away from their own Doctrine if you want to believe DNC 132 came from God and so you have that area now where the church is going how do we get ourselves out of this bind where we have this new and Everlasting Covenant of polygamy but we've also rescinded it because of pressures from the government to make sure that members don't realize that we've completely Fallen away from our own Revelations and so that's where we are today basically okay anything else do we do we cover the slide or um no no this one yeah this way still need to cover this so this is why it's just yeah this is so important because when people say that the new and Everlasting Covenant is Celestial marriage and not polygamy listen to what John Taylor is saying for this is obviously John Taylor claiming God said it and have I not commanded men that if they were Abraham's seed and would enter into my glory they must do the works of Abraham I have not revoked this law nor will I for it as Everlasting and those who will enter into my glory must obey the conditions thereof even so amen and so what John Taylor is saying through God is that the works of Abraham which we all know means polygamy is the new and Everlasting Covenant it this Revelation ties the words new and Everlasting Covenant to works of Abraham so basically what it's saying is another lasting Covenant is polygamy through Abraham and so anyone who tries to say that that the new and Everlasting Covenant is Celestial marriage has to deal with the fact that DNC 132 and this Revelation from John Taylor and all the teachings of all the early prophets are saying the exact opposite and so um this is something that is so important because DNC 132 is the Everlasting Doctrine polygamy is Everlasting is eternal and so we're going to talk about that through this episode but every woman in the church who's listening to this has to realize that when you get to the next you know when we die this is your eternity and you will have no say in the matter as we talked about with DNC 132. or Lisa Alicia anything you want to add [Laughter] it was originally intended absolutely to Encompass the principle of plural marriage um and this is really important because in DNC 131 it states that in order to enter the highest um a man must enter into this priesthood meaning the new and Everlasting Covenant and if he does not he cannot obtain it so we have to know what that phrase means now the church has defined that phrase publicly to mean the patriarchal order of marriage or currently um the fullness of the Gospel so there's a lot of ambiguity there but I think there is a lot of evidence indicating in church history both by prophetic statements and we see even in William Clayton's Journal where he talks about even specific number of wives that were told to him by Joseph Smith that he would need to enter the highest degree of Glory um I think I think there's a lot to be said for that I also just wanted to mention real quick um that um in the flds book of script scripture Jesus Christ's message to All Nations I did in fact buy this book because I was very curious initially I thought it was Warren Jeff's book of just his own Revelations and what I discovered after after purchasing it and reading through it um and what I think is worth mentioning today is that this is actually a compilation of Revelation statements prophecies from current and past flds prophets including those shared by the LDS church Joseph Smith Brigham Young John Taylor a big focus of This Book of prophecies is the Commandment on plural marriage and their defense is that this this is God's will um included in this book are journal entries from William Clayton some of the statements from sworn affidavits of you know Joseph Smith's wives various parts of Journal of discourses all also LDS sources and anyway I found it to be compelling and from what I can see plural marriage was absolutely to be included under that umbrella entitled new and Everlasting Covenant this is one of the things thank you Alicia this is one of the things I learned early on for those who are Mormon stories fans there's a Mormon stories trivia the very first video recorded interview I ever did on Mormon stories was with a woman named Ann Wilde and Ann Wilde with an e she was raised traditional Orthodox Mormon and at some point after she had been married in the temple to her first husband she started studying the Journal of discourses and early Mormon documents and she discovered you know all these sorts of teachings and and it led her to believe that the Mormon church was an apostasy the current Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was an apostasy because they were literally living counter to the prophecies received by the first three prophets and to the scriptures and this led her to divorce her husband and marry a polygamist man because she wanted to follow the prophets and she wanted to be part of the new and Everlasting Covenant that would get her into the social Kingdom and she knew that she had to be a part of polygamy to do it so we're going to include Ann Wiles Mormon stories podcast episode in our uh in the show notes you know because that's what what the that's one of the things that feeds modern Mormon fundamentalism is that believing Orthodox Mormons simply read the documents and read the Prophecies of early Mormon prophets and they basically force you to become a polygamist if you believe in the words that they actually taught absolutely the typically what my grandfather too and I always believed that he had been LED astray and I mean I guess while I still do sort of believe that because I don't I don't believe in the church anymore um but he was living this doctor in the way that it was absolutely written and I cannot tell you how many people have come to me personally just as a ex-mormon content creator I guess you could say um that have said oh my grandfather lived polygamy secretly while still going to church um people even today living this law and attending the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints so not only do we have people you know leaving the church and going to live formally in fundamentalism there are also people who are trying to make it work inside the church believing that um we just you know that the church just isn't quite on the right track because they're not living this principle yeah they become fundamentalists there's a lot of them I don't think we realize how many of them there are in the church oh yeah oh they are attending yeah and wild went on to raise her children in traditional LDS Wards in Sandy Utah and everybody just thought she was a divorcee but really her husband Ogden Kraut would come visit her like every third weekend and and the bishop and the members of the ward just had no idea he'd go in the back it's really fascinating yeah all right Mike no and the one thing I'll say too is you know we mentioned that that line about from John Taylor's Revelation where he talks about the works of Abraham but then you also have to look at the other line which says have I not given my word in great plainness on the subject you get have not great number of my people been negligent in the observance of my law so right there God is saying if you want to make the argument that this is all about Celestial marriage why in the world is God then telling John Taylor that a bunch of the people in the church are in negligent to the law because that's not you know this is the thing you cannot separate the new lasting Covenant is polygamy by the words of God and so when you have people uh like Ann Wilde who say the church is is an apostasy I mean she's not wrong now this is all made up um from a historical standpoint as we've talked about there are so many inaccuracies in DNC 132 that you know right off the bat this is not you know from God because God would be a horrible um uh person with his own scriptures if that were the case as we'll talk about in this episode but but they're right like the church is in apostasy if we want to believe this is from God like it's really that kind of like irreconcilable problem that comes from the church now trying to say oh no no it's over um because because it's clearly not and Mike it wouldn't wouldn't it be part of the church's historical apologetic that that to question the authenticity of the John Taylor letter letter and say that it wasn't really authentic but modern faithful reputable historians would would challenge that apologetic now is that right yeah and I think um I don't know if I have it in here in my overview yeah in the next slide it talks about Fair Mormon concedes that this is the legitimate thing the only but historically they they might have challenged it uh they might have I mean I don't know if they would have challenged it like you know 100 years ago or whatever but um the funny thing about it is just that what they'll say now is oh it's a legitimate Revelation but it was never canonized so we don't have to worry about it it's like no you still have to worry about it because it's still the written down voice of God this idea that it doesn't matter because of some legalistic um technicality I think is nonsense and you know if it were the other way around and polygamy was still legal this would be a framed uh document every Ward uh in every church building and be on one of the walls you know basically saying yeah this is new and everlasting you better believe it and that's why uh you know brother uh brother Joe has got six wives in his pews uh because this is what God wants so um yeah like yeah they can you can argue it all you want but most people would concede this as a legitimate document okay all right well let's let's learn how God changes his mind four years after saying polygamy is Everlasting yeah and so as you kind of highlighted the church is going to produce the first Manifesto four years later through uh Prophet Wilford Woodruff which is going to seek to end polygamy for time not eternity um and this is funny because just two years earlier in 1988 Prophet Woodruff stated that we are not going to stop the practice of plural marriage until the coming of the son of man it's like oops uh and and then this is another thing you mentioned earlier Joseph Smith was teaching people that uh God would come back if he'd lived about 84 years old um we have well we're gonna go into this in the revelations episode but there's patriarchal blessings all over the place where they talk about you're going to live long enough to see the you know the coming of the son of man obviously those Revelations all fail um and as I mentioned earlier uh we'll Woodruff is going to take another polygamous wife seven years after he issues a Manifesto along with other Apostles that are taking polygamous wives which shows how unserious the church was about ending polygamy um and I mentioned but that's another story and that's like what you said that might be another episode we have to do on the road um and so you know as I mentioned even fair Mormon concedes it appears to be in his handwriting and it is probably genuine um this Revelation is damning not just because God told Prophet Taylor to continue polygamy but that it explicitly ties polygamy to the new and Everlasting Covenant and you know just just to really think about this if you want to believe that God would change his mind just four years after stating to profit Taylor that I have not revoked this law nor will I for it as Everlasting and those who will enter into my glory must obey the conditions thereof and then also two years after you know Prophet Woodruff says plural marriage would not end until Jesus returns obviously I can't stop you from from wanting to to believe God would do that but you just have to answer why in unchanging unmovable God decide to change his mind just four year years after giving a very very clear Revelation and this is the exact same thing we saw when God gave a revelation to um you know president Monson about the November 15 policy of exclusion where uh Russell Nelson said it was you know he talked about how they all saw Revelation come down upon the twelve uh and then four years later three and a half years later God's gonna have to reverse that Revelation by another Revelation because of the fact that that policy blew up in the church's face with regards to to a PR standpoint so these are problems that come through the church because of the fact that these are not real Revelations and when you call something Revelation you have to remove it you end up with a massive problem because now you have to explain why God is changing his mind when the the real answer is that there are men who are trying to speak for him and they don't speak for him um and so this is just a big problem to show that we're also on one hand we're told God is unmovable he's unchanging he's everything from the beginning of time till the end on the other hand oops for years later he's changing Revelations those are not good positions for the church to be in and it's happening it's not a one-time thing as we talked about it happened just a few years ago I really like someone at some point made the point that Mormons have the view that the church that God never changes and that the church never changes I think it's Sean Larson who's made the point that you really can't find a single core Mormon doctrine that hasn't fundamentally changed from the beginning until now and the the weird thing is somehow the church has been able to change in a way to where the members uh have have not noticed how over time how significant the changes have been or or just not bothered by it yeah and there's um the book uh this is my Doctrine I think it's Charles Harrell he details that every single element of the church's doctrines have changed and and they're changing a way that most members today don't know it I mean I certainly as a convert had no idea about all the stuff that had happened because the church just pretends it didn't happen um but the historical record tells us that all of these things have changed and typically they change um because either social pressures uh demand it or because of the fact that it's just irreconcilable with what's happening in in at that particular time and so to make this claim as we hear all the time that God is never you know an unchanging undaunting you know it's like but but Getty does and so at that point then you have to say well is God ever is God a an unchanging God or is it just the people who claim to speak for him who don't uh who are doing it on their own and therefore cleaning up their own mistakes and it's really obvious once you take a step back and notice that literally every area of the church has had to change right we've detailed that I mean my goodness First Vision priesthood restoration a race in the priesthood all of these things have changed because the people who who created it in this case Joseph Smith made a lot of mistakes that have to be cleaned up later on in order to make this work so it's it's pretty obvious once you take a step back Alicia anything you want to add to this um if you want to add to this particular uh part of the conversation I was just going to ask do either of you recall this statement by one of the general authorities about dead profits and it was just to shift the emphasis on living profits and not to focused at Benson's 14 fundamentals of following the prophet that that the words of a living Prophet always Trump the words of a dead Prophet is that what you're saying yeah maybe that's it and I didn't realize as it was as old as Ezra Taft Benson I thought it was um more current but yeah it just to me sort of points to this like re you know rewriting of Mormon doctrine that like the emphasis should be on living prophets and what said today not what was said 100 years ago convenient right yeah it is I mean we talked about that with the race and the priesthood episode which is that the church will throw God under the bus before they will throw their current leadership under the bus because the current leadership needs members to believe they're in charge and you can't have that if you're willing to say that we have no idea what we're doing like for example with with race and the priesthood down Oaks gets up there and says I have no idea why God wanted this but he didn't it's like what you know so you're saying I have no idea why God was racist for 140 years but he was what are you going to do when in reality he could have been like yeah our earlier leaders of the Mormon Church our earliest prophets were actually kind of racist people that could not understand Revelation from God from their own racism and therefore we have to fix this mess but instead he's going to throw God under the bus because if he doesn't do that his own authority is undermined and that is the one area you cannot touch and and that's why you see that in these different areas because the living Prophet has to be maintained as infallible even though we're going to say in 20 years that they're fallible men making mistakes and this cycle continues every single time we get new leadership it's kind of brilliant though because by definition if God does it it's okay so you can throw pretty much anything on God and as long as it's God nobody can question it and so it's a really powerful form of deflection to keep the the Heat and the tension off of modern-day LDS church leaders yeah um obviously our our Christian friends hate it because I think in many ways it spoils post-mormons many post-mormons for belief in God in Jesus Because by the end they're so they find God Mormon God and Mormon Jesus so distasteful that they throw God and Jesus out all together um so anyway it probably backfires but I'm not sure how much the church cares if if ex-mormons stop believing in God or Jesus they probably want that they want ex-mormon to be Godless heathens um you know to discredit them either even further so anyway all right so let's go to um the first paragraph of the church's essay on polygamy yeah and this is something we got a little bit in the DNC 132 episode but the first paragraph of the essay says the Revelation on plural marriage was not written down until 1843 but its early verses suggest that part of it emerged from Joseph Smith's study of the Old Testament in 1831 people who knew Joseph well later stated he received the Revelation about that time the Revelation recorded in Doctrine and Covenants 132 states that Joseph prayed to know why God Justified Abraham Isaac Jacob Moses David and Solomon and having many wives the Lord responded that he had commanded them to enter into the practice and so the very first paragraph of their essay they're intentionally distorting the data there is no suggestion that this came from Joseph Smith translating the Bible in 1831 because if that were the case Joseph would have made changes in the Joseph Smith translation that would have reflected it like it's really nonsensical to say that that God gave him a revelation here yet didn't change the text of the Bible to actually command these people into polygamy um and so I find that kind of like funny but insulting because as we've talked about the 1831 Revelation that they're going to give a citation to from W.W Phelps has nothing to do with with Biblical stuff but about going to the Native American women taking them as wives and concubines so that their children that you have with them become and I quote white and delights them so they don't put that in the essay because it's incredibly racist and as we've talked about uh the Native Americans have nothing to do with the Book of Mormon people because DNA shows that they did not come from Jerusalem so right off the bat they're telling us this and as we've talked about over and over again the Bible does not have any instance where God is commanding Abraham and polygamy not Jacob you know not any of these people and so this is a very misleading paragraph right off the start that shows you that the church knows there's no real justification for it and so they throw the the same inaccurate Bible um reference that Joseph Smith gives in DNC 132 which anyone who opens up their Bible can see is wrong I love I love our our listening and viewing audience because they always send um thoughts and reactions that I didn't think of and one of our one of our commenters and I wish I could call out their name uh highlighted to me the the irony that the Book of Mormon claims that uh the the lamanites were given dark skin as a curse so that they would be viewed as repulsive or repugnant or ugly to their white counterparts and he said why why is it that the Book of Mormon says that and then Joseph Smith 1831 Revelation basically says hey hey Mormon missionaries that we're sending to the Frontiers hey if you decide you want to bring on a Native American Woman as a concubine you know God says that's okay doesn't that seem a little bit um contradictory Alicia what do you think about that oh gosh so guys I feel so new to new to territory this is something I didn't even remember I read the standard works every year I read the standard works for like 10 years in a row like the whole thing and I don't know why my brain did not compute that nowhere in the Old Testament was it saying sorry I'm kind of going back to the last conversation but never did it say you know I God command Abraham to practice polygamy like that was completely Joseph Smith's narrative he you know sort of he he wrote rewrote that narrative for us and told us that's what it is so it's immediately what we point to is active believing members to justify polygamy but it never actually said that so it's just so wild to me I'm still untangling it um I also saw that comment and I thought um that that was a really interesting again um this information is still a little overwhelming to me I haven't really processed all of it um but yeah definitely definitely compelling yeah all right Mike uh so what what's next I guess it's it's the spiritual wifery versus plural marriage problem is that next yeah so this is another one where the church's essay says nevertheless rumors spread a few men unscrupulously use these rumors to seduce women to join them in an unauthorized practice sometimes referred to as spiritual wifery when this was discovered the men were cut off from the church and we talked about this um both in the second overview on the polygamous proposals um and about with the happiness letter um the idea of spiritual wifery was happening at the same time Joseph Smith was ramping up polygamy and it was happening among those who were the closest to Joseph Smith and so you know they talk about John C Bennett a lot in the church they'll say oh that that John C Bennett was a horrible dude um but because John C Bennett had become extremely close to Joseph he was like his right hand man during this time and so they were having sex with these women under the idea of spiritual warfare which is you cannot be in trouble because um this is not you know this is more of a spiritual thing than it is like a law-based thing uh but the problem is we talk about this in the happiness letter episode Joseph Smith's own brother William Smith was doing it as well and so the church wants to make you think this is entirely different from plural marriage but they're really not that different if you view them as you would anyone else who's practicing some form of polygamy where they're saying hey we're going to marry each other you know um for eternity you can marry some other dude for time we could still have sex because we are technically married for eternity I mean this stuff is you know this idea that that they're pulling this out of thin air is nonsense and so um the church tries to make it sound like John C Bennett was all on his own I just find that very hard to believe I'm not I think John C Bennett's biggest crime was getting caught um but the fact is is we talked about the happiness letter William Smith is Joseph's brother and they don't mention that because if they do it all of a sudden it ties it closer and closer to Joseph and so family yeah yeah these are just word games it's like a word game to say spiritual wifery is awful plural marriage awesome yeah it's like you know what I mean it's just it's really bad and I know other people made that joke it's not I'm not the first one to say it but it's true it's like it's like if you're in a cartoon you know and you've got the bad guys like yeah spiritual you know spiritual warfare that's horrible and then he turns away from the camera and he's like the plural marriage is good you know it's like what do we do in here like this these are bad word games to try to say that by by using a different word you're privileging it to make one sound like completely scandalous and the others seem righteous when in reality as we talk about in our the previous three episodes Joseph Smith is using a lot of the same tactics a lot of the same promises that the other people were using the only difference is Joseph has the authority to get himself out of it whereas the other people uh made the crime of letting it get exposed which meant that the people Joseph was trying to hide it from are starting to find out it's almost like the church needed a trash can Joseph and then later church leaders needed a trash can to throw all the as much ugliness and and as much polygamy ugliness as they could into a trash can and so they created the spirit and by the way the only reason why John C Bennett fell out of favor is because he started doing things Joseph didn't like or started challenging Joseph Smith's Authority but that conveniently gave Joseph Smith and the church this kind of spiritual wifery John C Bennett trash can that they could throw all of the polygamy ugliness into you know if it happened to be inconvenient Alicia anything you want to add to this discussion about spiritual wifery well I just I just have this imagery of like Joseph Smith setting this up and setting up all these like now seemingly arbitrary rules to it and it just seems like it just slipped through his fingers and it just turned into this huge mess we've got Joseph Smith saying you know it has to be done this exact way and if it's not done this way and I have to be the authority and I have to make the assignments we've got Emma saying no it never actually should you know it's just it's just entirely this huge mess and people are using it to go out and be philanders and I don't know it just seems like a gigantic mess and I also you use the example of a cartoon I was I was picturing kind of like someone on the playground like setting up rules for this game and it was like no it's getting out of hand it's slipping through your fingers people are doing it in all these ways that you weren't anticipating and it just kind of gets out of control so anyway it's just it's another one of those like is it a psychological horror is it a comedy like no it's true I mean it's just it's all word games because Joseph has to maintain what he's doing is okay well then finding a way to demonize what the other people are doing because of the fact that it's now this secretive thing that's starting to get out and so all of a sudden it's like oh wait a second guys guys didn't you don't you realize this is spiritual warfare that's why that's bad but guys what we're doing behind the doors over here that I'm keeping from Emma because it's so righteous that I can't tell my own wife that's plural marriage that's okay and I know I sound facetious but I'm just saying like when you take a step back and you look at the way these two terms are used as if they're completely different they're just not and it's like you know again it's like uh you know I'm trying to think of different movies like Austin Powers they have doctor evil and he sees Austin power he's like we're not different you and I that's what spiritual warfare would say to plural marriage it's just like we're not different we're the same thing with just different names and and it's it's almost comical the way that people cling to these definitions is if it changes the history behind them the other the other thing that the church doesn't mention enough is that John C Bennett was in the first presidency so it would be like Henry B eyring or or you know down H Oaks is caught in some massive Financial Scandal and Russell and Nelson was doing the same types of things but you know it's like oh it shouldn't matter because what because Oaks are iring we're doing it like the church tends to downplay the fact that John C Bennett was in the first presidency and that is significant because it's it's one of the top two or three leaders in the entire church so it that's a problem and it's also a problem that the church just kind of conveniently fails to mention John C Bennett's position whenever it tends to discredit him I think well no and I when I I did the Saints chapter by chapter thing I was one of the first things I did on the website and so I was a convert didn't learn much about John C Bennett outside the fact that he was viewed as like a scoundrel and so I'm reading the Saints book and I'm like John C Bennett was was that close to Joseph oh John C Bennett was elevated to these positions you don't realize John C Bennett was like the guy the second hand person for Joseph kind of running the show and so to your point yeah it would be like today you know if download H Oaks is running the scam and then Russell Nelson's like dude I have no idea what he's doing and then all of a sudden you realize he's doing his own thing or just kind of changing the terminology it it really is kind of laughable and yes John C Bennett and William Smith were telling these women things that are horrible but as we talked about in the overviews on polygamy uh Proposal with Joseph Smith he was telling women things that were horrible too I mean what is the difference between um we'll we'll read we'll have Alicia read two of these accounts from from some of the women but then you've got to say what's there between that and the Joseph Smith telling Lucy Walker you have 24 hours to decide or the gates to exaltation will be closed against you I mean there's I just don't understand sometimes why we work so I mean I do understand why we're working so hard to privilege Joseph and we're willing to throw everyone else under the bus in order to maintain the plausibility that what Joseph was doing was righteous and from God when we know in our heads if we heard it from any other leader we'd be like this is horrific yeah yeah okay so let's get to the accounts of spiritual wifery from the women involved yeah so we read two of them in the um happiness letter episode so the we're gonna have the first one we read from there and then a third one which I did not include in that episode so um Alicia do you want to read these since they are the testimonies of some of the women who were involved William Smith I've been to my house on the 27th of last month being the day I was married and proposed unlawful connections that I refused and told him that it was contrary to the teachings of Joseph Smith on the stand he answered that Joseph was obliged to teach to the contrary on on the stand to keep down Prejudice and keep peace at home first W Smith insisted very much that I should not marry that I should not marry and proposed to supply me with food Etc if I should remain unmarried and Grant his requests and that's from Catherine Fuller's testimony you want me to go on to the next one yeah I want to read the other one too okay um so this is a third account from Margaret J nyman during the evening's interview he as I have since learned with Wicked lies proposed that I should yield to his desires and indulge in sexual intercourse with him stating that such intercourse might be freely indulged in and was no sin that any respectable female might indulge in sexual intercourse and there was no sin in it providing the person so indulging keep the same to herself for there could be no sin where there was no accuser and nice and most contestantly with Wicked lies persuaded me to yield by using the name of Joseph Smith and as I have since learned totally false and unauthorized and in consequence of those arguments I was influenced to yield to my Seducer Chauncey Higby okay so Mike if it's okay can I provide my analysis of those two yeah please do so so it's basically William Smith acknowledging that Joseph Smith lied about polygamy because he wanted to keep peace with Emma and he he didn't want the Saints being persecuted so that suggests uh an intentional conspiracy between Joseph Smith and William Smith is that what what is that at least the main thing we're supposed to glean from that first from that first quote Mike well I would say that the first quote he's telling this woman because she's saying dude what are you talking about we're not doing like this kind of extramarital sex and he's like yeah we are just Joseph can't talk about publicly we know that's true because Joseph Smith was doing it and he couldn't talk about it publicly so we know that part is confirmed and so to me that that part is saying here's William Smith who knows what Joseph Smith is doing he's telling the women this is what Joseph is doing and um so on this testimony this testimony is working to keep what Joseph Smith is doing Secret still but now in 2022 or really honestly just a few years later they knew that's what Joseph Smith was actually doing so we know William Smith is at least telling the truth he's not making us up out of whole cloth and so to me I don't know if it's necessarily a conspiracy as much as the fact that these women have no idea what Joseph Smith is doing because they're not in the Inner Circle of polygamy and Blaine Smith is trying to pull them in uh obviously in ways that Joseph might not have wanted him to but they're doing it with the teachings of Joseph Smith that we now know were actually being done at the time why why do you why do you resist the idea conspiracy to deceive if this has William Smith saying that Joseph why Joseph Smith his brother was lying to people why why are you saying that why are you resisting the term conspiracy I guess it's just because I I think it's um I mean it's a conspiracy to deceive in the sense of he has an inner circle that knows about this and they're all being sworn to secrecy yeah and so in that regard yeah it is I guess to me it's not like um I guess maybe I I'm resisting it just because I don't know that there was ever a meeting where Joseph said to William Smith hey we got to keep on the down low and we do this you know we just don't know that but we do know to your point that there was an effort and that would be technically a conspiracy among Joseph and all these people in it to not tell anyone about it that's we talk about time with masonry that's the whole point yeah it's to keep a secret so yeah Circle there's an inner circle yeah what's this closest confidants that are in the know and that we're allowed to practice and then there's an Outer Circle that are not in the know and that aren't allowed to practice Yeah so I mean you could use that phrase I guess for me I was just thinking like the fact is to me though it's more important that this testimony is actually confirmed by what we know that Joseph really was keeping the secret because of the fact that he couldn't talk about in public and so we hear these at the time they make it sound like this proves William's lying because Joseph wasn't teaching us like oh no this person's William was telling the truth because Joseph absolutely was doing these things yeah the second paragraph uh in Alicia I think you and I were both reacting tell me if this is what you were thinking Alicia it just sounded a lot like the the exact verbiage from the happiness letter and we're we're seeing that reappear in in in the account of of another person or is that what you were laughing at Alicia oh that's lying about there is no sin if there is no accuser yeah I mean so yeah these um these statements by Catherine Fuller and Margaret nyman are extremely telling um hey Mike where could people find these I guess LDS discussions we'll have the reference yeah we've got the references to them I think they're from journals um yeah it's worth it's worth reading through again I think this is really telling but yeah just to answer your question John the part that really stood out to me is that if there's no accuser there's no sin sounds like some solid moral compass there and it's coming right from Joseph and that comes right from Joseph Smith's mouth so let's go to the next slide just because you talk about how ridiculous it is but we got to remember these are Joseph Smith's own words so this is what Joseph Smith taught in November of 1841. I charge the Saints not to follow the example of the adversary and accusing the Brethren and said if you do not accuse each other God will not accuse you if you have no accuser you will enter Heaven and if you follow the revelations and instructions which God gives you through me I will take you into heaven as my backload if you will not accuse me I will not accuse you I will if you will throw a cloak of Charity over my sins I will over yours for charity covereth a multitude of sins what many people call sin is not sin I do many things to break down Superstition and I will break it down so this is literally that last testimony comes directly from Joseph Smith's teachings and so this idea that you know these people are lying and this is the case with uh Chauncey Higgins Chauncey Higgins is telling this woman exactly what the prophet of God is teaching with regard to no sin of no accuser and we have you know to use the cliche we have the receipts we have the journal entry where Joseph Smith says this is what I taught the Saints and now all of a sudden when the saints actually do go through with his teachings he's like oh no you can't do that I didn't mean that it's like no you did because you said it and you were practicing it and you're teaching in the happiness letter so that's what John said it's in the happiness letter it's in this 1841 sermon and then all of a sudden the only crime that these men commit is that they get caught and these women speak out because they're like why in the world am I having sex with this dude um because he said God says it's okay if I don't if I don't accuse him of it it's like well it's because that's what Joseph Smith is teaching as well and was that reference to the history of the church it says history there it's history in the church yeah so so church members would find that quote incredible because it's in church publication yeah that's 100 credible there's nothing there that is is controversial that's from Joseph Smith's um obviously he dictated it but that's from his his own words okay so now we get to some of the classic uh apologetic Arguments for polygamy um and and the first one we're going to highlight are the the carefully worded denials has been apologetic is that right Mike yeah and so this is one of the the things that was to me was troubling about the the essay of the first time I read it and because you have all of these instances where Joseph is so dishonest not just Emma Smith but to the church as a whole most of the people in the church as we just talked about they didn't know so there was this kind of like Inner Circle and then everyone outside of it was being told this wasn't happening and so the essay continues and says the rumors prompted members and leaders to issue carefully worded denials that denounce spiritual wifery and polygamy but were silent about what Joseph Smith and others saw as divinely mandated Celestial plural marriage the statements emphasize that the church practice no marital law other than monogamy while implicitly leaving open the possibility that individuals under direction of God's living Prophet might do so and this paragraph reads like it was written by a lawyer who's trying to stretch the truth as poss as much as they possibly can while not technically lying and the footnote from the essay explains these denials in this way in the denials polygamy was understood to me in the marriage of one man to more than one woman but without Church sanction effectively they are differentiating between polygamy and plural marriage as verbal semantics that Joseph used to lie it's kind of like you know the whole Bill Clinton thing like you know I didn't have sex with that lady because he didn't believe oral sex was sex or it depends on what the definition of is is and so their church here is playing very fast and loose with these words to try to find any possible way to avoid saying Joseph Smith was lying to the members of the church which he was doing yeah he was definitely lying to Emma and he was lying to members of the church and he was lying to the general public yeah you know Alicia you want to add to that no I just I think it's notable that a lot of the people writing these gospel topics essays have a legal background is that correct oh yeah yeah for the past several I think decades the church has hired lawyers to be their official Church historians they tried bringing on a real historian Leonard Arrington to head the church history Department from 1972 to 1982 and he told so much truthful history even though he was faithful that they fired him canceled the department and then once they once they created a church history Department again they made sure from the from then on to never put actual historians as the head of the church history department but to always put attorneys and I think that yeah yeah and if you look at the way that these um that these as uh gospel gospel topics essays are written like it's very carefully crafted you can see the wording on some of these I've got a couple examples coming up here in the next slides but the wording is is is crafted I mean it's been very explicitly um crafted for a certain narrative yeah yeah let's let's look at some examples yep and so um in one example of Joseph's public carefully worded analysis he said the following I had not been married scarcely five minutes and made a proclamation of the Gospel before it was reported that I had seven wives I mean to live and proclaim the truth as long as I can a man asked me whether the Commandment was given that a man may have seven wives and now the new Prophet is charged me with adultery I never had any fuss with these men until that female Relief Society brought out the paper against adulterers and adulteresses I'm innocent of all these charges and you can bear witness of my innocence for you you know me yourselves what a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery and having seven wives when I can only find one I am the same man and as innocent as I was 14 years ago and I can prove them all perjurers and when he made the statement he already has 20 wives and so you know Joseph's mockingly joking about whether the Commandment was given that a man may have seven wives he's got dozens at this point and I would also argue that when you say you're as innocent as you were 14 years ago um 14 years ago would be coming off of you know the treasure digging so he wasn't very innocent at that point either um but obviously I don't think that's what Joseph meant when he said it I mean that that one slide is like a nuclear bomb instead of a Smoking Gun because it's just it's Joseph Smith marrying dozens of people again people other men's wives mother-daughter pair sister pairs teenage girls and just completely blatantly lying about it not just to the to the membership worldwide but to the actual members of the church for me that's that's a nuclear bomb not a smoking gun to his credibility Alicia am I overstating that for you no and also I was just gonna say this way that the church is disowning this um idea of spiritual life free it kind of also reminds me of the way that the church now views AUB flds the other polygamist Traditions it's like we don't have anything to do with that that is absolutely nothing to do with us you know I guess I'm kind of going back a little bit but um but no I don't think that's an overstatement John yeah it's pretty serious all right Mike the so there's a second quote you want to read yeah so uh the next one uh if you go one next slide oh did you finish oh no I was just gonna say you know he he mockingly jokes about whether the command commandment was given that a man may have seven wives DNC actually says you can have 10 versions I just find it funny that he's mocking that as he claims to have this Revelation that specifically says 10 versions it's almost like I you know it's just like you you can't make it up and and yet here it is we have the documentation and and to call it a carefully deny carefully words now imagine going to your bishop and they said hey uh are you obeying the word of wisdom and you're like well I haven't drank any wine and then they find out later that you were doing cocaine and drinking beer all day and you're like hey I implicitly left open the opportunity that you know I mean it's just like this is stupid to to try to tell members you're implicitly leaving the option open that leaves the entire universe open it's like I could say right now you know I'm sitting on a chair implicitly leaving anything open because because I'm not saying anything else it's just so stupid good um to say that when we have these documents that show he's already lying like why not just say Joseph Smith uh I mean they could say Joseph Smith made statements that were not technically true in order to protect the church but instead they try to use this word game and if I remember right in in the polygamy essay they actually do acknowledge that so they use word like Joseph wasn't always forthright with Emma about his practice of polygamy so they do try and acknowledge they do kind of a head nod to Joseph's deception at least with Emma isn't that right well they use weasel words right so they'll say um it is they say something like it is it is likely that Emma did not know of all the marriages and we know that's like there is no likely about it he had a sham marriage with the Partridge sisters because Emma picked those two girls for him and he was already married to him so like what in the world are we doing saying she likely didn't know it just say Emma did not know of some of the marriages or either just say Emma did not know of at least some of the marriages something like that because we know that it's a historical record and yet they're they're writing these essays to the members in a way that would not even pass their own definition of honesty which is that if you leave out partial truths you are being dishonest that's there from their own manual and yet here they're doing it and they're doing it in the most Brazen and dishonest way possible and it just it blows my mind to call this a carefully worded denial or to say Emma likely didn't know we we know those are both inaccurate statements and and the church is putting those out what in 2014 it's just crazy so it's one thing for Joseph's Smith who have been dishonest but it's another thing for the church in modern day to continue yeah and I I think one of our commenters once made the point that they learned from the Mormon church that lying was using any words to create a false impression in the mind of somebody else right yeah yeah I mean it's just I mean that's just that's just the thing that is is so crazy about this you know thinking about just my time as a primary teacher and how much emphasis we made on like honesty I mean there were times that I I have one explicit time in my journal that I left Target got home realized we didn't pay for a game that I think was 299 this back when my kids were really little and I gathered the kids around I told I showed them my receipt I showed them what happened we have such a scrupulosity for honesty in the church I don't know if I'm using that phrase that term correctly but like we really really make an emphasis on honest and then you and that's for the general membership but then when you start digging into this stuff and you see what an incredibly dishonest curated presentation of this history that the church is formalizing it it's it's the gospel topics essay this is our message to the world of what we believe on this topic and it is so blatantly dishonest when you compare it to what's actually in the history there's so many levels of these essays that are just blatantly dishonest and I don't know if you guys have covered the um do Mormons believe they can become God's essays um but this stuff is just dishonest there's such a there's uh just such a discrepancy there okay yeah so I'm going to read real quick before we go to the next slide this is from the church's website it's from their gospel principles manual it's a chapter called honesty this is what the church says there are there are many forms there are many other forms of lying when we speak untruths we are guilty of lying we can also intentionally deceive others by a gesture or a look by silence or by telling only part of the truth whenever we lead people in any way to believe something that is not true we are not being honest so I mean by their own definition they are being dishonest here and and like it's just so funny how the word games here and they try they think by doing these word games to get you out of it but in reality once a member finds out they're a lot more offended by the fact that you were lying to him than if you had just said Emma didn't know about the marriages and all of a sudden you're like why what else you hiding because that it's just the same it's like the same thing as not telling your spouse like uh like if I I say I go to dinner and I cheat on my wife I go to dinner in a hotel and I cheat on my wife and then she goes what would you do tonight honey I'm like oh I went to dinner I had a great steak you know it was a good night and then like a week later she's like hey I found out you were cheating on me and I'm like uh no I said I had a stake implicitly leaving open the possibility that I had sex with another woman it's like this is the kind of crap you get when you start to use these weasel words um and like I keep saying implicitly leaving Hope because that's what the church does um and and I hope no one finds thinks I'm making fun of I'm just saying like they're they're they're doing this to to hide the worst elements of the church because they don't want members to know what really happened and that by their own definition as being dishonest yeah and you can't weasel out of this by calling it anti-mormon Doctrine or animal literature you can't all right well let's learn how Joseph Smith did we do this slide just go back one more go back one more because this is another one that's interesting so uh the church is going to alter their own history here to erase Joseph Smith being dishonest about polygamy so um in October of 1843 uh Joseph is going to have dictated uh by uh Willard Richards who's described an even more pointed denial of polygamy so he says um Joseph gave instruction to try those who were preaching uh teaching or the doctrine of plurality of wives of this law Joseph forbids it and the practice thereof no man shall have but one wife that is in the church's history from 1843 I don't know if Lily Richards didn't know about polygamy at this point but that's what Joseph dictates or what William Richards dictates this as to what Joseph was teaching that day so this line is very clear Joseph forbids it and the practice thereof no man shall have not one wife so now in the history of the church they're going to change this and it's going to say um evening at home and walked up and down the streets with my scribe gave instructions to try those persons who are preaching teaching or practicing the doctrine of plurality of lives for according to the law I hold the keys of this power in the last days for there is never but one on earth at a time on whom the power and its keys are conferred and I have constantly said no man shall have but one wife at a time unless the Lord directs otherwise okay wait so who would have made that change do we know who would have edited the history of the church and how they would have changed it I don't know I know I think BH Roberts uh was one of the ones that did it but I can't remember there was someone who who wrote the history of the church and then changed it from like third you know like kind of into Joseph's own words um and I'm not entirely sure who actually did it but obviously there was an effort here to to try to retrofit what Joseph Smith was doing versus what he was saying and I just it's just outright fraud you can't it is you can't just like rewrite I mean we we covered this in the restoration of the priesthood uh episodes but you can't just rewrite Joseph's own own journal or his Revelations after he's dead totally changed the meaning that's that's completely deceptive yeah and so I'm trying to look it up because I remember we dealt with this in an earlier episode because people say well Joseph didn't actually write it and so they kind of put it into kind of almost a first person language they said well if that's the case um then you know why is it but it's because they took it and they wanted to write it as if Joseph did it so that it reads easier um but at the same time um it's not you know when you're changing the substance of of the text and obviously you're doing it to intentionally deceive members which as we talked about violates their own definition of honesty Alicia any comment on on this well yeah I just keep thinking about all the ex-mormons that I've connected with over the last three years it seems just like an overwhelming majority of people that have deconstructed their Mormon theology have made a decision to step away from the church have done so with integrity and honesty in mind um and we very often talk about like after you deconstruct your faith you have to make a new you know you kind of have to redefine what your values are or at least identify what your values are now and for most people truth honesty Integrity those are at the top of the list so how does someone that values truth values honesty Integrity um how do those people now accept an organization that is so willing to bend the narrative curate The Narrative or as you say Mike retrofit um yeah it's it's it's definitely a problem I would say it's the biggest problem the church has right now yeah because it's easy it's easy for anyone to find these changes now and so you can't like you said you can't call anti-mormon because we could show that the church is changing their own material to to hide problematic stuff and and um we talked about that with the first Vision the priesthood restoration these are not me just saying Joseph Smith changed the story it's we have all these documented accounts we have all these journal entries that are showing Joseph Smith is changing this and here's why he might be changing it and in this case we could show that the church is actively doing it and so to call us anti-mormon for pointing that out is ridiculous because it's their own doing and changing these stories um that is why we're able to talk about how they're being dishonest with the material all right let's go to uh let's did you have a quote you wanted to read no no this is good because um these next two we'll go through pretty quickly this is just um we talked about this in the second episode on Joseph's proposals and so this is a statement that is published in the church newspaper and it's signed by Emma Smith and this is actually what Joseph is referring to in that quote about the Relief Society of publication and so they released a statement and it says we the undersigned members of the ladies Relief Society and married females do certify and declare that we know of no system of marriage Beyond uh being practiced in the Church of Jesus Christ Latter-Day Saints um save the one contained in the book of book of Doctrine and Covenants 15 and we give this certificate to the public to show that J.C Bennett's secret life system is a disclosure of his own make and it's signed by Emma Smith who obviously at this point doesn't know about a lot of the marriages but it's also signed by Elizabeth Ann Whitney her daughter is already married to Joseph Smith uh Sarah Cleveland who is married to Joseph Smith Eliza Arsenal married to Joseph Smith and so they're putting this this public statement out and Emma Smith obviously is the victim here and the three three of her closest people in Relief Society are either married to him or have a daughter married to him and so they're they're intentionally putting out this kind of weasel worded statement to say you know Joseph we don't know anything about which uh John C Bennett is doing except for the fact that they're violating what is in the uh the Doctrine and Covenants at the time actively and they're signing a statement while doing it okay all right super Shady yeah and so the next slide is just basically the men also signed the same basic statement to surviving polygamy and so you had John Taylor Wilford Woodruff uh Neil K Whitney um and it's basically going to use almost The Identical statement it's just to show the church is actively saying they're not doing it while they're doing it so you know again to go back to the church's essay they're implicitly you know they're denying polygamy or implicitly leaving open the possibility that they're absolutely doing polygamy it's just it's so dishonest should we read this up should we read this quote uh yeah but we definitely can you want me to read it sure in so much as this Church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication and this is already sounding like DNC 101 right well I think I think that is the in one I think they put the DNC 101 statement in in the printed thing so this is the DNC 101 at first so basically they're they're yeah so in as much as this Church of Christ has been a reproach to the crime of fornication and polygamy we declare that we believe that one man should have one wife and one woman but one husband except in the case of death when either is at Liberty to marry again uh we have given the above rule of marriage as the only one practiced in this church to show that Dr John C Bennett's quote secret life system close quote is a matter of his own manufacture oh my gosh and further to disabuse the public ear and show that uh the said Bennett in his misanthropic friend origin Bachelor are perpetrating a foul and Infamous slander upon an innocent people and we need but be known to be hated and despise in support of this position we present the following certificates we the undersigned members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and residents of the city of Nauvoo persons of families do hereby certify and declare that we know of no other rule or system of marriage than the one published from the book of Doctrine and Covenants and we give this certificate to show that Dr John C Bennett's secret life system is a creature of his own make as we know of No Such Society in this place nor never did and it's signed 12 men including Newell Whitney John Taylor Wilford Woodruff um and uh Sarah Cleveland and Eliza R snow and I'm guessing you include all them because they were actively participating in polygamy by 1842 which is when this was signed is that right Mike yeah I'm not positive actually if new Okay Whitney John Taylor Wilford Woodruff or in polygamous marriages at that point or not um I mentioned the women there just because those two State the relief society and the men it's published next to each other in the paper because they're trying to get you know they're trying to circle the wagons here to try to get uh these rumors about what Joseph Smith is doing out of the out of the air and so but it's not like it sounds like the polygamy Genie was starting to get out of the bottle by 1842 Joseph wanted to get the genie back in the bottle and so he basically says hey all this polygamy you're hearing about that's John C Bennett's evilness yep and and this this denial that Joseph Smith would have approved of and allowed is just uh I it's just again it's another nuclear bomb to credibility Yeah well yeah because you got you got Sarah Sarah um Whitney is married to Joseph so Elizabeth and Whitney signs the Relief Society State Manuel K Whitney signs the the men's statements you have all these people here who know full well that they're signing on to something that's just completely not true and yet the church now is going to say well that's a carefully word of denial it's like no no no it's not it is absolutely trying to deceive the membership by trying to use technical language and as I said earlier try doing that in your temple recommend interview and see how well it goes over because I guarantee you um that they're not going to be okay with you laughing and going oh I'm sorry it was just a carefully word denial they'd be like no you're lying because you are lying it's just this is supposed to be the one true church of god The Only Living Church on on Earth and yet they're doing these kinds of legalistic word games because they're too embarrassed about their history because they know that if members know the true history they're going to have a lot of different views about The credibility of the church I mean it's as simple as that one of the things I like to always remind people these days is just to tell BYU students who are living under the honor code and and or or prospective missionaries and or young couples that are going through their Temple recommended interviews in in preparation for going through the temple you don't need to be any more honest than Joseph Smith was right because there's you know a kid can be told he can't serve a mission just for masturbating a kid can be sent home from his mission for for masturbating a young couple can send out announcements for the date of their wedding and then if a bishop finds out that they went a little bit too far maybe went to second or third base they can have their entire Wedding Date changed which is a signal to everyone that they've they've engaged in in improper sexual activity uh and then BYU students can literally if they have sex or even engage in heavy petting by the church's definition they can be kicked out of their of their um you know University experience at Great expense both in time and money and those Stakes are so high for things as as ubiquitous as masturbation let alone petting or minor minor sexual activities that that that I just want to remind all of them any believing Mormon within the earshot of me you do not have to be any more honest than Joseph Smith himself was Alicia you're smiling yeah off of the active believing young members of the church today that was beautiful I agree all right we have Alicia's approval so I think we're good can we see a thumbs up can we see a thumbs up there Alicia we got the Alicia thumbs up all right support this statement all right so Mike uh now we're on to the next apologetic from the church which is that God wasn't clear enough with his instructions to Joseph that Joseph was just trying to figure it out and yeah you know we all see through a glass Darkly and God didn't want to be too explicit and so you know that's the defense do you want to go and lay it out yeah and so we talked about this in the episode we looked at DNC 132 the wording of it but the essay that the church put out says although the Lord commanded the adoption and later the cessation of plural marriage in the latter days he did not give exact instructions on how to obey the Commandment uh at first again I want to say polygamy and plural marriage is not over and so it's still the doctrine of the church so they keep saying things like the cessation of plural marriage they did not end it they ended it four times it is still absolutely considered to be what we are all going to live through in the eternities um because the nc-132 is still Doctrine um and so we need to look no further than Russell M Nelson and uh Dallin H jokes downhill jokes will be the next Prophet both of them are sealed to multiple women and under church doctrine they will be sealed to them for eternity and will be able to have sex with both of them to create enough Spirit children you know to populate their worlds as gods and I would I would just note that if you truly believe that polygamy is over do you find it to be a coincidence that Russell M Nelson and Dallin H Oaks both chose second wives who were not previously sealed meaning that they're going to be with them for eternity do you see like I think that to me is a big tell that they absolutely believe these women are going to be theirs forever with their first wives so all right yes I just throw that out there because I hate when the essay keeps saying it's the cessation it's not over so we don't need to harp on that but um I do I always want to point that out because they use these little words to kind of indicate that it's over and it's not over um oh I just to me the history of polygamy obviously it's such a massive problem um it remains a sacred Doctrine it's canonized in the Doctrine and Covenants yet if you live it in this life you'll be excommunicated um and it's honestly just such a surprise to me honestly that the church hasn't repudiated this as Doctrine at this point um written it off as a mistake but instead uses just these very vague and dishonest ways of talking around it I don't know yeah no that's it okay all right let's go let's go to examples of we I mean we know we know in the Doctrine and Covenants it's so one of the reasons the Doctrine and Covenants is such a tedious read is because God can be so so um prescriptive and pedantic and tedious about the most minor things so that's what I'm guessing we're going to be covering here is that right Mike yeah no and that's just it so remember we talked about this uh in our first step Look At Me episode I mentioned earlier you know Joseph Smith is going to to to dictate the entire Revelation in one sitting it's over 3000 words and so it's an orally dictated text and that's why you have a lot of these rambling sentences um and why God seems to sometimes lose his train of thought because um the person who claims to speak for God is doing this all orally and tends to make a lot of mistakes but um these are all areas of DNC 132 where we are getting very specific rules so verse 8 says behold mine house is a house of order saith the Lord God and not a house of confusion that seems to contradict the essay uh verse 15. marriage is not performed in the new and Everlasting Covenant and in death making all marriages on Earth null and void except the ones performed by Joseph Smith and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints um verse 41 if a woman enters into the a new and Everlasting Covenant and then be with another man she has committed adultery and will be destroyed as I mentioned that's going to not be good for all of the polyandris wives who Joseph just basically ticketed for Destruction verse 44 if a woman is faithful but but the husband breaks The Vow then the woman will be given to another who is pure and only Joseph holds the power to do it that sucks for mixed Faith marriages because uh when you pass the woman then it's going to be given to another husband for eternity and the husband obviously will be kicked to a lower level verse 51 Emma Smith is not allowed to partake of the offer which Joseph Smith made to her which was either to take additional husband for herself or to offer divorce DNC 132 rescinds the offer with the claim that it was an abrahamic test which is funny because um polygamy is talkative as an abrahamic test except they went through with that fully and then if you go I think the next one we've got some more um just to go through him quickly uh verse 54 Emma Smith shall abide and cleave to Joseph Smith but if she does not accept Joseph's polygamy she you'll be in a quote destroyed verse 57 Joseph Smith should not put any property out of his hands for Satan seeketh to destroy again that's ironic because Joseph puts a lot of property out of his hands that very same day later to Emma verse 61 and 62 it says men are only allowed to marry virgins yet Joseph Smith married 11 women who are already married to other men then it says men must gain the consent of their first wife although dnc-132 then gives a loophole four verses later that makes the wife at fault if she does not give consent and then verse 63 the Commandment is to take virgins to replenish and multiply the Earth but if those versions be with another man they'll be destroyed again it makes clear that the women are to be given to men which is a theme that is woven throughout basically Mormonism and of course this text and so these are all very specific rules that are coming in DNC 132 and ironically Joseph Smith breaks pretty much every one of them and so to say that it wasn't a specific or clear Revelation I think is very um the church doesn't want people to read this I think like you said do a cold reading of it so they're trying to tell you like oh it wasn't clear it's like no no it's actually clear and it's horrific but it's clear yeah um Alicia any responses to the specificity word um I just Church to write this gospel topics essay when they are literally referring to something that is in scripture like all you have to do is read Doctrine in covenants 132 to 2 to see that it actually was very specific and it says there in the essay um just to reiterate he did not give exact instructions on how to obey the commandment and I'm just gonna say that that to me is an outright lie and I think it's just incredibly Brazen of the church to write that when any member of the church can go read Doctrine and Covenant section 132 right now just open your scripture and you're gonna see how specific it is it's got the consequences of it it's got how it's supposed to be done who's in charge so it's crazy I had a friend I had a friend uh who's passed away who who used to say if you want to hide something from a Mormon put it in a book and I didn't totally get what he meant but I think it yeah I think he was basically saying Mormons don't tend to read stuff about their own church and and I think most Mormons have if they've never if they have read DNC 132 they haven't really processed it um because it's so problematic me on my my Tick Tock Channel I've gotten messages from friends and people that I've known over the years that have said hey do you have any sources for polygamy like where does it say that we that that was ever a thing and you know I I just point them to doctor do you want a faithful Source Doctrine and Covenant section 132 like it's right there yeah I've had the experience too they'll reply like I'll put some on Twitter like a quote like that's not part of plugging like it's verse whatever verse 42 and they're like uh that's not what it means I'm like you just said it wasn't there and all of a sudden you're like well he doesn't mean that it's just it's most people and again when I was a member I'm still a member when I was an active member they didn't talk about polygamy really at all but everyone small they would and they would just talk about those first few verses about you know ceilings they don't talk about anything else and so to John's Point unless you actually go in and read it and and you read it while you're like you're not just reading it because you want to get your 20 minutes of scripture study out of the way you're reading it because you really want to know it's you just gloss over it but this is so specific like to a to a fault like it's so specific that I'm almost surprised that Joseph Smith was willing to box himself in that much but I think that's what happens when you're told you need to riff off this this um Revelation in one sitting so that you could give it to Emma you're just trying to to put all these ideas together that Joseph's trying to use to justify what he's doing but the problem is by making all these different rules and having some of them contradict having Joseph already violating most of them um it leaves you uh in 2022 uh with a huge mess on your hands and that's why the church is trying to basically tell you yeah oh it wasn't clear so don't worry about it as opposed to them saying let's go through what the rules were um you know I think there's a reason for that and in the chapter summary of 132 is actually the language plural marriage it's either plurality or plural marriage it's there in the scriptures I mean it is I don't know what year my scriptures are but it is in the chapter summary oh yeah beginning there so yeah all right well let's go to the next slide which is the apologetic the church likes to use around polygamy that they use with all early Mormon polygamists which was that they would rather die when they were told about polygamy they would have rather died than practice it or and or an angel with the Flaming sword made them do it so Joseph Smith The Reluctant polygamist yeah and so we we've talked about this now a few times um but this is such a common apologetic and of course that's in the essay and it's really to imply that Joseph is the victim here it's not the girls who are the victim it's not anyone it's Joseph and so this is from the essay when God commands a difficult task he sometimes sends additional Messengers to encourage his people to obey consistent with this pattern Joseph told Associates that an angel appeared to him three times between 1834 and 1842 and commanded him to proceed with plural marriage when he hesitated to move forward during the third and final appearance the angel came with a drawn sword threatening Joseph with destruction unless he went forward and obeyed the Commandment fully and fully means sex I think we can all read between the lines on that one yeah okay so I think this particular Clause is interesting because of how it's worded so I'm thinking about whoever's writing this gospel topics essay they're trying to figure out how to Plate it in the best possible way so it starts off by saying that sometimes God has to send additional Messengers to encourage his people to obey but then instead of saying and in this case God sent an angel with a flaming sword it says consistent with this pattern Joseph told Associates that an angel appeared to him three times so they're leaving this space here for interpretation maybe they're not exactly claiming that the angel appeared to him they're suggesting it but they're also pointing out that this is what he said not exactly that it's unequivocally what happened so I thought that was interesting and it actually makes me wonder if the church is trying to carve out this space to eventually distance themselves from the doctrine I don't know speculation but am I really expecting oh go ahead my speculation there and and maybe I'm being too cynical is because if they say associates they don't have to give you the specifics us to the accounts of where he does this so otherwise they have to tell you that he had told it to sign a Huntington after she'd already married her husband um they'd have to tell you that he told it to marry Elizabeth Rollins Lightner who also said that Joseph basically told her I think when she was 11 or 12 that he'd marry her someday so I mean the angel with the John's sword story has a lot of really bad details I'm guessing part of it is just the fact that they want to get away from that as soon as they can but they also have to address it because of the fact that so many critics now point to it and say this is one of the tactics he was using and so I guess maybe I'm just thinking that they're just trying to find a way to word this as Loosely as they can because they don't want anyone to look further that's my take on it anyways okay I got a question for you Mike and maybe for you too John do you think the gospel topics essays have improved the church's situation or do you think that it's actually made it worse John would know better than me because I think I think it's a mixed bag because I think more people there are a lot of people that have contacted me and said that they were they were all in until they studied the gospel topics essay for a lesson and then they're like holy crap that happened that's not an anti-mormon lie we're admitting it um I was gonna say on the other hand in a lot of ways it helps them because now when someone says why didn't you ever tell us that Joseph Smith had 30 to 40 wives they say oh we totally did it was in that gospel topics essay so I think for them it gives them that kind of like line of plausible deniability when they don't kind of give the full story in their their manuals but at the same time I think it's caused a lot of people to have faith crisis or crises however you say it yeah was your was your question Alicia whether you know if if the church was hemorrhaging people before it released the gospel topics essays having felt deceived or misled about the church's uh you know dishonest representation of History are you asking whether or not the release of the Gospel topics essays accelerated or decelerated the the hemorrhaging is that your question exactly I think it's pretty clear it's accelerated uh the hemorrhaging that's my that's my anecdotal experience and does anyone have any details about why the gospel topics originated because someone pointed out to me that it may have been a legal situation that they've had to do it for legality yeah there's a um basically uh there there are a few Mormon stories episodes where we talk about this there was a book oh I'm what's his name the guy who did that Benson I'm spacing on my my good friend's name uh let's see Mormon stories gospel topics essays podcasts his name is I'm so embarrassed okay Matt Harris oh yeah no bring Mill Bringhurst um wrote an entire book on a sort of an analysis of the Gospel topics essays and in the very first chapter of the book they provide an overview of the history of how the gospel topics essays came to be and um I'd I'll I'll say it as humbly as I possibly can uh I'm I'm grateful to have been a part of the sort of like the the build up to the church's release of the Gospel topics I say is because part of that story includes um Swedish area Authority Hans Matson losing his faith creating a Mormon stories podcast support group in Sweden which led to a bunch of Swedish Saints losing their faith which led to what was called the the Swedish rescue where where Marlon Jensen and um the the the guy who succeeded him as church historian and I'm really bad with names this morning they went out to try and rescue the Swedish Saints from massive disaffection and uh and this led to a meeting between Hans Matson and Greg Prince and Marlon Jensen and my friend Travis Stratford in New York where we did an entire survey of over 3 000 uh ex-mormons or Mormons who had lost their faith to let Marlon Jensen know that the church was losing its best in PRI best and brightest primarily because um they were feeling betrayed by the church and then Marla Jensen used that entire study to convince the Brethren to uh to approve the gospel topics essays process now I'm not going to say that that was the only reason or even the main reason but we do know that that was a major contributing factor to the church ultimately releasing the gospel topics essays so I um I'll I'll share um in the in the show notes um a couple Mormon stories podcast episodes that that talk about this was that helpful Alicia yeah it is I apologize for the deviation but as we dig into this stuff I just think it's worth talking about the context around the gospel topics essays because a lot of people will say Well thank goodness the church has decided to be honest about this history and just a few people have clued me in like there's a little bit more to it so I'm putting this Matt Harris book on my um on my reading list I just found it on Amazon the LDS Gospel topic series a scholarly engagement so I'm ordering it awesome there was also um there was also an episode on a popular podcast called uh the called reply all and this was I don't know if it's still a super popular podcast but it certainly was at one time and in that episode they actually cover this topic as well and they they interviewed me for that episode so I'll include that episode as well sometimes critics of mine get really mad when I mention myself at all in these episodes but you made me Alicia you made me well I'm happy I'm happy to hear it I definitely am curious about that and I think it's relevant to the conversation too so sorry for the deviation no no it's a good question because it obviously has impacted people and it also to what you both have said like it impacts the way people respond to because I've had people go well they're not hiding and it's in the gospel topics essay and I know for a long time it still kind of is but for a long time it was like what three clicks deep that was the joke right so you never found it unless you knew where you needed to go and so it was kind of hidden out there um until somebody was having a faith crisis then they could go oh we've got this new resource for you and so it even the the history of the essays themselves is messy it's kind of a interesting situation in as we talked about in our episode on the proposals you know using the word um before her 15th birthday the historian last name is Snow White camera's first name now um you know even he said that was a mistake because they were trying so hard to privilege Joseph Smith that they oftentimes chose to I think uh water down to the point where even you know someone that was unaware of a lot of the details could go why are you saying before a 15th birthday we know that means 14. so um I think the essays have had a mixed bag of impact and probably for the church's sake in a lot of ways has led to more members leaving than staying but I could be wrong on that that's that's what I've heard that's been my anecdotal experience all right well let's go ahead and jump to the next slide which is uh both DNC 132 and the happiness letter make it clear who wanted the polygamy yeah and so um this is one of those things that we're trying you know the church wants so hard to make it sound like God kind of came to Joseph who wanted nothing to do with this and just forced them into it and so we've talked about this before but in dnc1 there 32 it says verily thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I the Lord Justified my servants blah blah is touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines so dnc-132 is saying Joseph is the one that went to God and said hey what about polygamy and then in the happiness letter which is another document we talked about in our last episode um Joseph Smith says if we seek first the kingdom of God all good things will be added so with Solomon first he asks wisdom and God gave it him and with it every desire of his heart even things which might be considered abominable to all who understand the order of Heaven only in part and so both of these letters and documents are saying that Joseph Smith is the one who is asking for it and this is what he desires and so to then paint josephus's reluctant polygamist I think is irreconcilable with what we have as far as dnc-132 and the happiness letter and I think this is why the church is working so hard to try to avoid giving us more of the the data and just kind of keeping it more on the surface level because to me those two statements right there are pretty damning as to why Joseph Smith was looking to do polygamy and and you know in probably reductionistic to say he was just you know horny and wanted to have lots of sex with people there was that certainly that was part of it and there was probably some other motivations as well including him trying to figure out why early prophets in the Old Testament were were engaging these sort of marriage practices but but I think it just if the church is going to be fully honest Joseph liked clearly liked sex and had a lot of power in Charisma had a lot of access to women and like many cult leaders and or leaders of high demand religions it's just what leaders of high demand religions do whether it's Warren Jeff's whether it's um you know Keith rainieri uh whether it's uh you know the Waco Guy what's his name um yeah pick your jib Jones pick your cult leader they're having sex with lots of women and it's just clear that that it would be just a miscarriage of honesty to act like that wasn't a prime driver in my opinion Alicia you're agreeing disagreeing yeah I agree yeah I agree it's hard to say when you those are hard words yeah yeah when this is your culture uh I love the Mormon people more than they're my people it I mean I consider myself one of them and so it's really hard to align what the church is today is such a beautiful group of people I mean there are complexities there there are there is harm there's it's a mixed bag right um but it's it's hard when that's your tradition to associate the word cult to it but really when you when I go back and I view this through my current 44 year old lens as a Seventh Generation woman that is exactly how it reads to me it reads as as a cult leader I'm sorry Mike I know you don't like us to use that term called on the show um but that's how it reads to me it's very consistent with all of those groups that you mentioned with the branch Divini the Branch Davidians I mean you go through those characteristics of um of early Cults and it looks very similar to um to the um to the early Mormon church yeah I'm going to read this quote we've read this in the happiness letter episode but this was from Jonathan streeter's presentation from Sunstone he says keep in mind that special Divine permission is nothing new self-proclaimed Prophet David koresh and the Branch Davidians claim special Divine permission to take child Brides for the purpose of producing the 24 Elders foretold in the Book of Revelations self-proclaimed Prophet Wayne bent of the Lord our Righteousness Church claimed special Divine permission for having sexual relations with children even his own daughter-in-law in order to avoid God's punishment to avoid God's punishment self-proclaimed Prophet Julia Shack now of the sect known as the work claimed special privilege to promise salvation in exchange for sexual intercourse with women and children including his own stepdaughter self-proclaimed Prophet Tony Alamo of Alamo Christian Ministries became a special biblical permission to Illegal illegally marry women multiple women and children self-proclaimed Prophet David Berg of the the children of God claim special Divine permission to normalize sexual relation with children prophets justifying their own predations as special Divine permission through the use of Pious language and religious sentiment is nothing new and it's true I mean like those these other prophets who the church everyone in Mormonism will be like oh those are predators uh they talk about how God was going to hurt them if they didn't do it um they talk about how these people had relations with their stepdaughters and remember that Joseph Smith took some of these girls and claimed them as adopted daughters and then married them so all of these things are still they're common threads and so you know as John said and as Alicia said these are themes you see in really bad uh high demand and cult leaders and yet Joseph Smith does and all of a sudden we're like oh ours is different and it's just it's not it's the same thing it's just a different different terminology we just happen to be a a religious organization I say we I'm not a member anymore but um that has really flourished and we've put so much emphasis on things like discipline and education and being well spoken and being kind and compassionate and of course I don't ignore that there are a lot of there's a paradox there too with our policies but in general um you know the the people of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are beautiful people and so it's hard to associate this culture with uh that of a cult but um you know when you go back into the beginning formative years of the church it was consistent with all of those other Cults that you mentioned for sure in my opinion yeah well let's go on to the next apologetic that the church oh by the way one thing I was going to mention just to close out the discussion of the Gospel topics essays I think we know what we know is that um the church would pick an expert in in various topics to have them write the first draft and my understanding is that Brian Hales is kind of the go-to expert on Mormon polygamy he's actually not a historian technically I believe he's an anesthesiologist but he has become the church's go-to apologist on polygamy and it's my understanding that Brian Hales wrote the first drafts of the church's polygamy polygamy essays have you heard that uh Alicia um uh no I hadn't heard that he wrote the Gospel topics essays but I guess that's not a surprise and and I do appreciate his work so much and also his late wife Laura um yeah I mean I've leaned a lot on their on their studies they've done a lot of work yeah so yeah I mean and that's the thing I think um I think Brian Hales has cited eight times in there he's excited more than anyone else so it would make sense and honestly it would make sense for him to do it because he probably has the most grasp on polygamy in the church from someone who is a faithful member I mean obviously you could go to like Lindsey Hansen Park but I don't think the church wants to know what she thinks about polygamy and certainly is not going to put out to members so um I I have no doubt that they went to people that they knew had some level of expertise in a certain field and said can you write the draft and then of course I think the race and the priesthood won they said the first draft was like 50 pages and obviously got whittled down to what is probably like five pages so I am sure Brian Hales had a first draft that probably Alters or differ differs greatly from this but yeah I mean it certainly seems to be uh heavily reliant on his material but his material is um is very robust he's done a great job of not just collecting the documents but they're all up on his website so it that in that regard I mean obviously I disagree with with some of the Apologetics spin he has and I know he would disagree with some of my spin but I do appreciate that he's been pretty transparent with with a lot of the documentation which I I definitely appreciate from from the work he's done and from Laura obviously um who passed away so I think they've been uh a blessing to to the church's records um in transparency even from someone who doesn't agree with their their ultimate kind of outcomes on Joseph Smith as a person right all right let's go to the angel with the drawn sword story which continues The Reluctant colleague Joseph is The Reluctant polygament right there yeah and so this is just more to know you know the essay is trying to kind of paint Joseph is this victim who refused to enter into polygamy until his life was threatened and you know it just to me kind of shows that um we know where Joseph used the story and so you're trying to give him the rosiest lens to look through and you know zyna Huntington refused his proposal she married someone she loved and he still uh he wouldn't do the marriage he refused to do the marriage with through their marriage uh their wedding day into to a tailspin John C Bennett had to jump in and do the ceremony then he goes and says you know oh I tried to try to put it off but the angel won't let me um we have the documentation on how I used it on Almera Woodward uh Elizabeth Rollins Lightner she was also already married to her husband Adam who you know we have to believe was a marriage more out of love than than religious necessity um and so what the essay doesn't tell you is that Joseph used his story multiple times on women who initially rejected his claims which again lets us know that Joseph was already obeying the Commandment fully by the time he was using this story in additional women so this idea that the angel is going to come down and say you're not obeying the kamehameh fully maybe the first time but he's telling it to multiple women who reject him and so that tells you he realizes this is an effective tactic and so he keeps using it because is once you do it the first time you already commit you're already obeying the Commandment fully so why would you need to do it multiple times and so um it's just to me it shows this idea that he's a reluctant polygamist it just doesn't line up with the fact that he had almost 40 wives we know he had sex with at least 11 of them it just doesn't paint the picture of someone who's trying to do the bare minimum just to get by this this shows someone who is his um kind of crafting his techniques and uh finding the ways at work and finding the ways that don't work as he proposes to more and more women and I think that we've shown that in all the previous episodes it just doesn't line up with this idea that Joseph Smith really didn't want to do it and was forced into it because it we could show from DNC 132 it was him asking for it and we could show from the proposals that he's using these same lines on different women which would make no sense if the whole point was he had to do it fully with with one person it just doesn't make sense yeah the happiness letter itself is is about happiness and so that doesn't that imply that that that polygamy and sex would make Joseph happy along with you know with yeah uh with Nancy Rigdon right yeah and and also obviously tries to imply that it would make Nancy Richton happy which obviously Nancy Rigdon knew was not going to make her happy and I'm sure a lot the fact that these women all rejected him tells you that uh in their minds having sex with Joseph Smith was not what they uh envisioned as being happy some of them some of them well so yeah some of them we don't know yeah we don't know did you want to add I was just gonna say I don't know how I never connected the dots there that right at the beginning of DNC you can see that he inquired of the Lord about this and so the way that I think that is he basically asked for this but then it's just so interesting how God is now so serious about enforcing something that Joseph Smith asked for so I know there's this premise of like well you're not um expected to obey a commandment until it's been revealed to you right that's why we can't hold ourselves against other people who don't have the higher law but it just seems so bizarre now to think about this that like Joseph Smith asked for this and then God is so serious about him now keeping the Commandment that he's going to send an angel with a flaming sword if he does not he's going to destroy him now if he doesn't yeah that's a really good point he just hates God in just this bizarre way yeah it's like on the one hand Joseph's like hey God what about this and God's like oh you're asking okay well here's here's you know here's my answer and then just he's gonna turn around and say you're all toast if you don't do it yeah yeah I I go to my dad and I say Dad I'm really hungry can you give me five bucks on go to McDonald's and my dad's like yeah yeah okay you don't go to McDonald's I'm in this place yeah and then like three hours later he's like he's like hey that five dollars is still on the counter didn't you go to McDonald's like no you know what actually I just wanted to know if you'd give it to me I'm not really hungry and he's like dude you're gonna go to McDonald's and you're gonna spend that five dollars and you're gonna eat that lunch fully and if you don't I am going to freaking kill you it's so inconsistently bad that's why like people and again like when you I've told this to a few people that are not in the church that never part of the church they laugh at this stuff because they're like this is so transparently made up and it's because it nothing like like Alicia says once you start connecting the dash like wait what it makes no sense it just it it it really makes you shut off your critical thinking to even give this plausibility because it's so cartoonishly bad um and yet the church is going to try to spin this in the essay as if it makes total sense when even in the essay they're not giving the details because they know it doesn't make sense yeah we're we're we're we're we're all a little bit ranty today but we're trying to get all our Insight in before we end yeah yeah he does that yeah so great this is a great segue to the slide on the priorities of God of the god of Mormonism yeah and so you know basically what God sends an angel down to threaten his Prophet for is not having enough polygamous wives and have or not having sex with enough polygamous wives after the prophet asked God why he can't have them um and then you kind of look at that and you go okay well if he's sending an angel down for that what is he not sending an angel Downs for and so God never sent angel down to tell the prophets that banning people with black skin from the temple and exaltation was bad never set an angel down uh because Brigham Young created Utah as a slave state when he had a choice not to um he never sent angel down to Joseph to tell him that he was getting the book Abraham translation completely wrong just before the Rosetta Stone would be cracked he'd be basically exposed to the fraud um for putting biblical errors directly into the Book of Mormon uh they never sent the angel down uh in November 2015 to tell him not to create a policy of exclusion that they that God was going to have to reverse three and a half years later and you might read that and say I'm being facetious but the problem is you have to reconcile why God would send in Angel down to threaten Joseph Smith to have sex with polygamous wives or else be killed while being completely silent on some of these horrific things that happened in the church that we're now supposed to say you know that this is we just can't understand the ways of God because this is something that tells you that these visions that Joseph Smith have tend to always back up what he wants to do And yet when it's the other way God is absent from it and that's a very big red flag to me yeah absolutely um Alicia did you want to say anything about that slide I just want I really appreciate Mike bringing this to the surface I saw a tick tock that he had made about this and I think it's such a good important point to think about like when you think about this God that you love and you worship and what his priorities in life might be and you think about all the things that were going on during that time um with just all sorts of issues racism and like he has a living Prophet on the earth he can command him to do anything and this is what he's going to command him to do I just think you know it's it's really nuts and I think it was you Mike that had also uh brought to my attention that there were like illnesses going on like people were dying of malaria if they had given him the Revelation to like boil the water like there's a lot of useful Revelations that could have happened as it explicitly that apparently the polygamy Revelations happened um and yet nothing so yeah yeah I mean it's the thing it's like they have this cholera outbreak which over a dozen members of the church die and God doesn't come down or send an angel down to say Joseph if you boil the water a lot of my my you know my children are going to live instead silence and these people die um you know and we have all of these instances in in church history where God is powerless to help and then all of a sudden God comes down to fulfill what Joseph Smith already wants to do which is to in this case get women to marry him and it's just it's it's a really big red flag and it's the same thing that you see today with Russell M Nelson you know he tries to get the church to stop using the name Mormon and he's rebuffed by Hinckley and Monson he finally lives old enough he gets because Prophet first thing he does oh God God just told me him he I forgot the word he is inspired me to tell you that he's really upset with you guys for using Mormon and it's like well that's awful convenient that right after you live long enough to become Prophet God's telling you the thing that you've been trying to get done for 30 years it's a really big red flag and it's something that you don't it's not just Mormon prophets it's any religious leader is getting Revelation that backs up what they want and yet the things that could gen that could genuinely tell us things we don't know or help people uh with future events God is just completely absent on it and that's a big red flag right I would have loved to see you know Mormon God tell early church leaders things like you know in addition to you know the racism you know in the Book of Mormon and the curse of Cain stuff that they had you know don't teach the curse of cane doctrine that would have been a good one uh how about you know be honest in your history so that a hundred years later you don't have massive disaffection uh from the church for for having people feel like they've been lied to that would have been a good thing for Mormon God or Mormon Jesus to tell church leaders and then another one would have been any sort of Revelation on the LGBT same-sex marriage stuff because interestingly uh and suspiciously The Book of Mormon Doctrine and Covenants pearl of great price they're all silent on lgbtq issues completely and if and if God can see the future and if he's speaking with his Prophet series of revelators how awesome would it have been to give clarification really early on when it could have been codified those are a couple things that I would I would probably add to the list yeah um will you say something Alicia absolutely no I just yeah it's just ring yeah absolutely all right let's go to uh let's go to the apologetic that Joseph thought he could trick god with polyandry yeah and so we we talked about in the early episodes that Joseph Smith married a lot of women early on they were already married to other men and we talked about from from our perspective it seems like maybe he did that because if there was a unwanted pregnancy it'll be easily explained away but um either way he married I believe in his first like 14 marriages like 11 where Polly Andrews or something around there and so the essay says these polyandra ceilings may also be explained by Joseph's reluctance to enter plural marriage because of the sorrow it would bring to his wife Emma he may have believed that ceilings to married women could comply with the Lord's commandment without requiring him to have normal marriage relationships this could explain why according to Lorenzo Snow the angel reprimanded Joseph for having demurred on plural marriage even after he'd entered into the practice after this rebuke according to this interpretation Joseph returned primarily to ceilings with single women and again this is making Joseph like this reluctant victim's awesome dude who was trying so much to to keep Emma from this but you know it makes us forget that at the beginning of the same essay they're telling us that Joseph got the Revelation in 1831 and that Revelation tells you it's to you know to create Worlds Without End you know more seed and all that so you can't have it both ways this idea that Joseph thought he could trick god um in the 1840s when we're also told he got the Revelation in 1831 it's just it's insulting the intelligence of anyone reading this essay if you're paying attention to the details all right let's jump to the next apologetic which is trying to distinguish between marriage for time and marriage for eternity that's a very common Brian Hales apologetic right yeah and there are um documents uh from the early church kind of histories where they're trying to detail these marriages and they'll have like I think it's I think it's a t and an e and so everyone assumes that means time uh or eternity and um usually you know time I think would mean Time and Eternity but uh the church is trying really hard to use this as some sort of a dividing uh Force to explain Joseph's marriages by saying that if it's a Time marriage for time it means you can have sex now if it's for eternity it means you'll have sex later although they don't say that so what they say is during the era in which plural marriage was practiced Latter-Day Saints distinguish between ceilings for Time and Eternity and ceilings for eternity only ceilings for Time and Eternity included commitments and relationships during this life generally including the possibility of sexual relations eternity only ceilings indicate the relationships in the next life alone and to me I don't even understand why this why the church feels like this distinction is important or useful because to me it actually makes polygamy worse because if you're in an eternity only relationship uh marriage with Joseph Smith it means that when you die your husband is going to be separated from you forever your kids are now going to be Joseph Smith's kids and now the life you spent with your loving husband you're going to be married eternally to have sex with Joseph Smith and you're you know it's just like to me it's even grosser uh to basically say that Joseph's almost like bookmarked you for the eternities I just don't understand um why they're trying to do this because we know he had sex with women for time so why then say well some of them weren't for time they're just so he's just planning having sex with him for attorney it's like I just don't get it to me my sense is you know one of the bad apologetics for polygamy has always been and I'm surprised we haven't covered it yet that you know there were there were way too many women on the frontier and not enough men and the women needed so a man to take care of them and and and so polygamy was instituted so that all these Surplus women on the frontier could still get married and have someone to take care of them and still marry a righteous husband that could take them to the social Kingdom now of course census data and other data shows us that there are actually more women on the frontier sorry more men on the frontier than women and so that has debunked it but but for me this kind of sex now versus eternity marriage for time versus marriage for eternity kind of thing um is an attempt to muddy the waters to say you know what you know Joseph Smith it really wasn't about sex because there's these older women that got sealed to Joseph and it was very clear that he didn't have sex with these older women um you know they were just older women that needed to be sealed to somebody and so they got sealed to Joseph but it was just for eternity only and there was no sex which then allows them to kind of cast a shadow over the rest of the polygamy that kind of tries to paint a question mark as to whether or not Joseph had sex with that any of his plural wise maybe maybe Joseph was the one Mormon polygamist prophet and one Mormon polygamist of all of them that just never had sex with any of his plural wives and again I don't know why why it would be okay for all the other Mormon men to have sex without restraint with all their wives but we got to keep Joseph pure so this teaching of marriage for eternity ceilings for eternity polygamous ceilings for eternity is an attempt to keep Joseph sexless with his plural wives That's My take Alicia what do you think that's funny John I had actually made the same note because I feel like this bumps up against that very common apologetic position which I think is formalized um by the church this idea that we need to have a space for all of the women in heaven so there's this idea that we would have to have plural marriage because there's going to be apparently so many more righteous women than there are men but in reality it's just crowding out men who are living righteously when you look at the cases of Helen and Horace Whitney Zina Huntington and Henry Jacobs both of whom knew even though they were living the gospel you know Henry who's going after one One mission after another for the church Faithfully knowing that his wife is going to be sealed to Joseph and it kind of makes me wonder about you know that common phrase used in the church whenever you find something problematic with like a divorce or abuse or anything like that heavenly father will work it out we just have to be faithful that heavenly father will work it out but it's just completely it completely conflicts about this apologetic position of you know that we're taking we're taking wives away in this in many instances from righteous men so it just doesn't yeah just another case where it doesn't add up yep okay all right so we're not loving that apologetic no and the only other thing the only thing I would know is we we talked about this in a previous episode because you'll hear people say well Joseph Smith married some older women so of course it wasn't all about sex and I would go well yeah I don't think it was all about sex anyways but as we talked about some of those older women were being used to recruit the younger women and so this idea that they were you know kind of this innocent marriage it's like no no they were still actively involved in polygamy they might not have been having sex with them but they were bringing younger girls in who were having sex I to me that argument Falls flat the moment you understand that some of those older women were still actively engaging in bringing other women into the practice and I think that is something you will not see the church say when they talk about older women and wives and widows and stuff like that yeah okay the this next apologetic that we're going to get to um is it has to do with the law of adoption and dynastic ceilings and it's another one of those core Mormon doctrines that appeared early that's just somehow conspicuously disappeared since then but it's this little known fact that men in in Joseph Smith's day once the power of the ceiling got going it wasn't just polygamous marriages that included sealing oddly you know men could be sealed to men and in some ways families could be sealed to families and there's this idea of the law of adoption um which was that basically Joseph's goal was that everyone was sealed to everyone in the afterlife that's what's meant by the law of adoption or the law of ceilings and now you're going to be talking about how those teachings have been used to try and put a cloak over polygamy to say it also wasn't about sex is that right yeah I mean it's just what they're trying yeah they're trying to make this sound like Joseph Smith was just trying to set up this this eternal Dynasty and so um this is still when they're talking about the polyandrous marriages the essay says there are several possible explanations for this practice these ceilings may have provided a way to create an eternal Bond or link between Joseph's family and other families within the church these ties extended both vertically from parent to child and horizontally from one family to another today such Eternal bonds are achieved through the temple marriages of individuals who are also sealed to their own birth families in this way linking families together Joseph Smith ceilings to women already married may have been an early version of linking one family to another and just as we talk about the law of adoption was there where you could seal yourself to another man as like an adopted son or in theory could you'll see yourself to a woman as an adopted daughter so Joseph Smith could have made this happen without the need for marrying already married women and taking their children and the woman you know herself for eternity they had the tools to do this and Joseph Smith again makes a deliberate choice is to marry them instead of using uh like you said the law of adoption which was available to him so I think this idea of dynastic stealings really goes out the window when you realize Joseph Smith could have made this much easier and still chose to go the path of marriages with sexual relations with it you know at least a dozen of the wives it's pretty clear to me that reminds me of another another apologetic that you often hear is there's a lot of men over time who have had sex with a lot of women you know stop accusing Joseph of being sexually minded because if he just would have wanted to have sex he could have just had sex with a lot of women and hid it and lied about it he wouldn't have needed to create this elaborate theological uh structure to justify something that he just could have done um as a man in power uh do you do you cover that Mike or Alicia do you have a reaction to that no uh I don't cover it but I would just again say that if that were really the case um you know he's creating an entire system to basically justify what he's doing and so I I agree with people who say if he really just want to have sex he would have done it we saw that with Fanny Alger he did do that um at the same time um I don't think it I guess to put a different way look at all of the effort some people go through to cheat on their wives or to cheat on their taxes or to I mean people go through a lot of work so that they can try to make sure no one else knows what's happening and so if Joseph Smith was just going around to women and having sex with them when the word of that got out and it would have he would have been screwed but by doing it this way by creating this system underneath it it gives him not only the right to do it but you know the god approved justification to it which he wouldn't had and so I I get what you're saying because I hear that sometimes and I don't believe it was just about sex I think there's a power element I think there's a complicity uh argument that comes from it but at the same time I I just I think that they're missing a lot of the details they're trying to make it too simple and I think the history tells us that Joseph is going through a lot of work here uh when he could have made it more simple if it really was just about creating these Eternal dynasties okay okay so uh that does that cover the dynastic ceilings do we go to the law of Sarah I I mean to me at the end of the day all I have to say is Joseph had the law of adoption he chose not to use it and and to me that's the end of the the apologetic I I know that might be too simplistic for people but if you have a tool that can avoid needing to marry have sex with these women by just doing the law of adoption and you don't use it then then claiming Joseph's just trying to create dynastic uh links to me just Falls flat um but you know if you have if you have if either of you have any more um notes on that feel free but to me I think it's a pretty cut and dry one yeah that makes sense all right let's jump to the next one which is the law of Sarah and Joseph Smith's oops moment yeah and so we talked about this in the DNC 132 episode but again remember this is an orally dictated text so Joseph Smith is riffing this 3000 plus word revelation off the top of his head uh Hiram wants him to use a stone he says no he says that basically he knows it by heart and so this is from the essay about the law of Sarah it says the Revelation on marriage required that a wife gave give her consent before the husband could enter into plural marriage nevertheless toward the end of the Revelation the Lord said if the first wife received not this law the command to practice plural marriage the husband would be exempt from the law of Sarah presumably the requirement that the husband gained the consent of the first wife before marrying additional women after Emma a post-plural marriage Joseph Joseph was placed in an agonizing dilemma Foster forced to choose between the will of God and the will of his beloved Emma he may have thought Emma's rejection of plural marriage Exempted him from the law of Sarah her decision to receive not this law permitted him to marry additional wives without her consent this set this paragraph in the church is absolute crap and they're making it sound like the law of Sarah was revoked near the end of the Revelation this is these are four verses apart Joseph Smith creates this law of Sarah and I would bet any amount of money realizes that he's giving Emma the ultimate veto power over his polygamist marriages and so four verses later he takes it away and this Revelation is written in 1843 after Joseph Smith had married over two dozen women without asking his beloved Emma for permission first so this idea that Joseph Smith felt like um her rejection of plural marriage Exempted from the Lost era is interesting because he's doing all of this before he even records a revelation or before he even asks her the first time so he's violating the rule before he even gives Emma a chance to accept it I just and and these are things you can show through all sorts of documentation so for the church to make it sound like Joseph Smith is playing by the rules here is just nonsensical and and again this is where the church is trying to keep members from understanding all the details because if you do you realize that what he's doing here with the law of Sarah era is pretty ridiculous given the fact that four verses later he's going to remove it right Alicia something you want to I was just gonna say I think the basic breakdown for this is ask present present present the law to your wife if she gives consent marry the plural wife if she doesn't give consent marry the plural wife anyway yeah because we we talked about this in in the DNC 132 episode and I I was I was half joking but it's like you go to your wife you're like hey baby um so Eleanor down the street uh I kind of want to marry her and I'm asking you for permission um and I hope you give it to me because I would really like to marry her and I'll spend some nights with her but I'll spend some nights here too um but here's the thing baby uh if you don't if you don't allow me to marry her I'm gonna do it anyways and you're gonna get to watch me go down the street and have sex with her oh and by the way if you do accept it you're gonna be blessed you're gonna be blessed and I will be blessed too uh and if you don't do it I'm gonna go do it anyways and I'll be blessed still but you're gonna be destroyed but but I love you it's just like it's so it's so bad it's just like on the on the very surface of it if you read it it is so horrible and I I kind of to say this sometimes like this is one of those areas where I'm like if this is from God then the god of Mormonism is not worthy of my worship because the god of Mormonism is kind of a jerk and so um I know that might sound offensive people but like is that really what you want in a God someone who's going to tell a woman a wife that you have to accept watching your husband or you know at least knowing that your husband's off having sex with other women or you'll be destroyed it's just it's so it's the fact that it's so contradictory four verses apart tells you that Joseph Smith is orally dictating this realizes what he did and then has to fix it we see that in the Book of Mormon where he's fixing little mistakes he makes this is no different except for the fact that he realizes he's giving Emma too much power and so he has to pull it back before she has a chance to use it I agree so much so frustrating all right well let's go to I think an apologetic that's still very you know some of these apologetics maybe have fallen a bit out of favor at least in the church's modern attempts to justify polygamy like in 2022 but the next one is still very much in favor it's basically the argument that we have accounts of many of Joseph Smith's plural wives um either saying they had incredible spiritual experiences uh bearing their testimony to the truthful polygamy or them just bearing their testimony that that they knew polygamy was true and that somehow that's uh that's a that's a reasonable defense yeah and this is just this is a Formula that they use in a lot of their essays especially this one which is to say you are initially going to be disgusted at reading about polygamy and what Joseph Smith was doing you're going to struggle internally over the details you're reading and then you're going to follow um having these doubts resolved through spiritual experience and so this is a theme that the church uses in the essay not just for the women they talk about but also they're kind of telling you how you're going to need to go down this path as well and so the essay says nevertheless for many women and men initial revulsion in English was followed by struggle resolution and ultimately light and peace sacred experiences enabled the Saints to move forward in faith and you know within the essay the church cites that Joseph Smith polygamous and polyandus Brides would initially recoil the idea but then would have a spiritual experience and we talked about that in the proposals episodes where Joseph Smith is kind of telling like here's what you need to do we need you to fast we need you to to pray um and we all talk about how when you fast and when you have no sleep you start to have these experience says and um I just want to be clear we cannot we have to honor the lived experiences of these women because we can't speak for what they experience I can't tell you what Lucy Walker's experience actually was I could just tell you that she talked about how she had at least two sleepless nights before she felt the room light up after she'd been fasting and scared to death about what she needed to do and that's what gave her the internal permission to marry Joseph Smith and so um we can't say what their experience is was because we weren't there but we can say these are the same things that are going to be used by every other high demand religion any other cult leader to justify what they're doing it's no different unless you're engaging in special privilege special pleading right yeah yep yeah you listen again there's a Mormon stories video that I've republished of just people of all different faiths Islam Judaism the flds church all bearing their testimony using almost identical language and there's just an Episcopal epistemology problem you've got like I was really taken back when I saw the keep sweet documentary I don't remember if it was on Hulu or on Netflix but check it out and you've basically got you know when when the when the state uh police were were basically incarcerating Warren Jeffs and putting all these flds people in prison you've got these polygamous wives of Warren Jeffs that are all like sobbing on TV talking about how they know Warren Jeffs is a prophet and how they they know that their lifestyle is true and how do you you know if you're gonna you know you just have to understand that when your whole life is rooted in the church when you have when when women aren't even allowed to vote when women aren't allowed to own property when they have no family or connections outside of the Mormon community that they've given their lives to basically the the power differential and the social pressure and basically the social conditioning is so powerful that what else would you expect for for Joseph Smith's wives to for many of them to Bear testimony that it was of God uh you would almost expect uh nothing less Alicia you want to add anything yeah this really from what I've observed is the most common apologetic stance from active members of the church like how can you dismiss their testimonies and I I mean I think that's a valid point we can't dismiss that Helen Mark himble had a testimony of polygamy you know that we can read her testimony toward the end of her life and I think it was Lucy Walker too you but I think we also have to we have to qualify with this with the fact that they did have a very limited world view that their survival within their tribe was relying on this um this bias and when you look at the prophet the way that he approaches her too when she when she's a young girl when he approaches her about polygamy he starts off by saying do you believe that I'm a prophet and then he tells her what to anticipate will happen to her in the next 24 hours that she's going to you know he says something like I know that you will gain a testimony of this I know that you will receive light and knowledge and so she has this experience in her room of you know this light and this whole you know profound spiritual experience and I don't mean to belittle that or dismiss it but I think that the idea that there was some confirmation bias going on here is probably a you know a real probability um so I just think that there are a lot of factors that we have to take in mind for this and I love that you pointed that out too John because I think the flds is the closest parallel that we have to the early Mormon church and to see the way that Warren Jeffs functioned with his people during that time that he was gonna you know getting them to go to Zion um getting them to send in some cases their children to Zion without them um to be groomed as young wives as young as seven eight nine years old in some cases that's how he presented it he said do you believe that I'm a prophet because if he can get them thinking in those terms remember I speak for God and I know you will have a testimony of this if you pray for it um the the likelihood is that that's what they're going to come to especially with the limited worldview that they have at that time yeah yeah and and you just look at the followers of bhagwan sriraj Nish of of Keith rainieri of David koresh it doesn't matter pick it's consistent they always have women who will say that that they that their sexual relationships with the Divine leader it was inspired by God so what what makes why do we give like you say um why do we give extra credibility or validity to Joseph Smith's wives if we do that then do we have an epistemological problem when we've got a we've got to say that the other wives of the other cult leaders were inspired too we've I think we've made the point yeah all right so so uh why you have a whole slide on this did we already cover it we pretty much did yeah the only thing I would just mention is just you know um kind of Alicia said which is that these these girls are being told kind of how to do this you know you got to pray and you're being told from the time you're born that if you have these bad feelings it's the adversary trying to deceive you and so that's why he's asking him do you believe him a prophet because all of a sudden they have these bad feelings like that's the devil trying to keep you from from doing this and so um so what you said if we are going to then say from the church's standpoint that because they have spiritual experiences we cannot question them then we have to accept those same testimonies from Mormon offshoots which you just said um which leads us to the next slide which has um some audio from a girl um a teenage girl who is in the middle of a uh polygamist marriage in a modern day Mormon offshoot all right let's go ahead and play it searching for I'm gonna turn it up this work and of this church and and just tonight I got my witness and it's burning within my soul of how important this work is and how true it is I know it is and it's hard to believe that just a year ago I was in high school and now I'm in a plural marriage and struggling but I know without a shadow of a doubt but this is the Lord's work and I finally found it I say this in the name of Jesus Christ holy moly that's way more effective than I think any of our explanations were that really that really drives the point home and that's a modern what flds young woman it is I forgot which sect it is but it's it's one of the offshoots and um I can't read it because it's small but on the website we have it on there but yeah it's one of the offshoots it's modern times it's you know obviously because I have it on audio recording and yeah I mean that's that's what today's Mormon Church the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that would be your fast and testimony meeting if the government didn't force them to stop polygamy I mean like I don't know how else to say it like this is what the doctrine says should be happening today um within the Mormon church and so we have these other people living it and we look at them we're like oh my goodness they're horrible when in reality they're just doing what Joseph Smith created this is nothing this shouldn't this shouldn't shock you outside the fact that we're trying to privilege Joseph Smith and and other the other you know to other them and just doesn't work yeah wow well how was that how was how is hearing that for you Alicia sorry just okay go ahead oh that's okay uh yeah this one makes me feel a little emotional it was it was pretty stunning to me actually to come across this vid the video that you mentioned John toward the beginning of my faith deconstruction it was people from a lot of different faiths bearing their testimony um it was the first moment I think that I it really occurred to me that the intensity and sincerity of my own testimony was not unique that this kind of emotion and conviction of Faith could be found in all kinds of religions and today to this day um you know it almost feels like something special was taken from me when I saw that and that probably sounds so strange but it was something that I thought was uniquely shared amongst people of my own faith and um now you know looking at this video the video that we just watched or the that other one with the compilation it just makes me realize that this is a very Universal experience to sense a deep penetrating truth within your own religious tradition yeah absolutely all right well said Alicia so so Mike the next slide is Joseph Smith once again changes God's words I think this is an important one because we talked about this with the first Vision with the priesthood restoration with the Book of Mormon and how Joseph Smith will change God's words his revelations in order to uh basically retrofit his current Theology and his current needs into it and so we've talked about this before and but the Book of Mormon says behold David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines which thing was abominable before me saith the Lord but then you've got DNC 132 where God's telling Joseph Smith David also received many wives and concubines and also Solomon and Moses my servants as also many others of my servants from the beginning of creation until this time and in nothing did they sin saving those things which they received not of me and then the happiness letter which is also Joseph Smith's uh writings to Nancy Rigdon he says if we seek first the kingdom of God all good things will be added so is Solomon first he asked wisdom and God gave it him and with it every desire of his heart even things which might be considered abominable to all who understand the order of Heaven only in part but which in reality we're right because God gave and sanctioned by a special Revelation and so so here we've got Joseph Smith contradicting The Book of Mormon in the Doctrine and Covenants because the Book of Mormon says that God found it abominable and in DNC 132 he's like no no I Justified it and then nothing did they sin but then in the happiness letter Joseph takes God and just throws him under the bus and runs them over about 10 times because again I want to be perfectly clear here the Book of Mormon says David and Solomon's wives and concubines which thing was abominable before me saith the Lord happiness letter says even things which might be considered abominable to all who understand the order of Heaven only in part so in the happiness letter he's saying anyone who thinks polygamy is abominable knows Heaven Knows the order of Heaven only in part and the Book of Mormon says that God calls it bombable so I know like I just want to drive that home in the happiness letter Joseph Smith is saying God knows the order of Heaven only in part because God called um having many wives and concubines abominable and this is Joseph Smith creating more problems by changing the words of God in order to justify his current needs and theology yeah that's yeah that's pretty telling Alicia anything you want to add I just there's such a big big difference between what's in Doctrine and Covenants I mean I know this is all we can just all draw our own conclusions here but I just think it's so weird and suspicious that it's such a different presentation in the Book of Mormon than it is in Doctrine and Covenants yeah is that just because Joseph Smith is trying to work his agenda like I really have no stance here on this it just seems so like suspicious yeah for me this is why this this entire LDS discussion series is so important because we talk about in some of the early episodes how much the the church doctrine and theology changes over time and we we talk about how so many of the distinctive Mormon doctrines that show up in in the Nauvoo time period or even in the late Kirtland period we're never in the Book of Mormon and so you know if the Book of Mormon was an independent text of what God wanted his you know church members in the latter days to draw from and it's God's one chance to get pure scripture because we were all taught as Mormons that the Bible is corrupted by the great abominable Catholic church and others so God's got one chance to get the fullness of the Gospel Into the Book of Mormon which we're all taught as the most correct book and then he leaves out you know Melchizedek priesthood Temple ceilings uh Eternal Marriage Three Degrees Of Glory um you know the word of wisdom you're drinking wine you know in in the Book of Mormon for the sacrament even uh baptisms for the dead just just all of these distinctive Mormon doctrines somehow aren't in the Book of Mormon and instead The Book of Mormon just almost perfectly reflects not only the arguments that were going on in the late 1820s um that Joseph Smith was exposed to but it also reflects Joseph's exact theology when when the book was published that's one of the biggest tells of all it's that it's that Joseph Smith is you know if you're if you're Terrell Givens or Richard Bushman you're saying that he's he's innovating as he goes or that God's teaching line upon line if you're taking a more secular or skeptical view it just looks like Joseph Smith's making it up as he goes along and and the scriptures literally reflect snapshots of Joseph's evolving theology over time does that Alicia I don't know if that makes sense yeah I mean the line upon line concept works when it's like building foundationally one piece on top of another but it 'd be problematic when you have actual changes in even like the presentation of the godhead when you have like actual like literal literal discrepancies like we see um from The Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants regarding plural marriage like these are this is not line upon line this is something entirely different and that's ultimately what it leads me to believe that the whole thing was just kind of curated and pieced together and there were holes at the end of it yeah that's why I love the 116 Pages episode because we talk about the fact that the Book of Mormon you know Joseph Smith loses the first 116 pages and somehow in the Book of Mormon it's written into the Book of Mormon that God knew Joseph was going to lose it so they create the second place set of plates right so God is so good at knowing what's going to happen he creates a second set of plates but God doesn't put in the Book of Mormon any of these uniquely Mormon things that happen in Naboo and you're like how does he know about the Lost 116 pages but doesn't know about any of these other things that are going to happen in the next 10 years and it's because Joseph hadn't thought of him yet the Lost 116 Pages was happening in real time so it's easy for Joseph to write it in there and it just shows how Joseph's mind works to create this Theology and then use the scriptures to be a vehicle for it but unfortunately when he changes theology then he has to change the scriptures and that's when he runs into these problems because his fingerprints now are all over these scriptures and these Revelations and you can't even when you change them we still have the records of those changes and all of a sudden once you see him you're like oh crap yeah he's he's making it up because this does not line up with any historical outline from either the Bible or from Joseph Smith's own life and once you show he can he's making it up then all of a sudden you you could see the patterns throughout all these other things as well all right well let's go to uh talking about the footnotes in the polygamy gospel topics essays right yeah and so this is one of those things that you know when you talk about apologetics you talk about the church's essays is you know I always joke it's like follow the footnotes and I in my head I think of it as the follow the prophet song but um there are three footnotes I want to look at real quick just to to show how they are making these citations so that members think that these are scholarly works that are being cited but if you actually look at the footnotes they're either completely contradicting what they're saying or they're kind of you could see they're being a little deceptive so we talked about the carefully worded denials earlier and so this is footnote number 22 and it says in the denials polygamy was understood to me in the marriage of one man to more than one woman but without Church sanction and so we talked about this earlier but this is showing that Joseph Smith is using these verbal semantics but their citation is literally just telling you that they're thinking polygamy is different and I think that the fact that they couldn't give you a better citation shows that um you know he was lying and I think that we've made that clear earlier in the episode um then footnote 45 this is where they talk about um it says plural marriage did result in in an increased number of children born to believing parents so if you look at footnote 45 um it is a very untrue and apparently intentionally misleading statement because 45 contains no information but reroutes you to footnote 6 in their Utah polygamy episode or essay which informs us that Studies have shown that monogamous women bore more children per wife than to polygamous wives except the first so their statement is plural marriage should result in increased number of children born to believing parents the footnote eventually tells you that studies show that monogamous women bore more children per wife than polygamous so you know I think the church would say well if you have 50 wives and they they average a half a child you're going to get more than one wife that averages 12 children but at the same time that is contradicting I think what they're saying in a very real way at least to me it does and do you have a do you have uh that that final passage to read there from the slide yeah yeah there's there's one more just real quick that this is the third footnote from the Kirtland and navu essay which I found to be a little bit misleading and so it says um actually very misleading it says in biblical times um oh crap I lost it in biblical times the Lord commanded some of his people to practice plural marriage the marriage of one man and more than one woman and the footnote to this is going to give you three different sources one is DNC 132 which is not from the Bible uh Jacob 2 verse 30 which is obviously not in the Bible although the church would argue it's Biblical times and um Genesis 16. and what's funny is if you look at those actual out don't count DNC 132 because that's written after the fact if you look at Jacob or Genesis in neither of those is God commanding anyone in polygamy and so they're making this declaration that God commands people into polygamy they give you citations and those citations do not say that whatsoever and it just shows that they're starting this essay on a footing that is just not accurate and yet that's their entire justification it blows my mind uh Alicia you're you're shaking your head my unmuted um yeah no I agree I just yeah I don't really have anything to add here yeah yeah okay well that's important Mike footnotes footnotes are always important so let's uh let's go to the reality that you know I I think um you know one of the one of the one really significant moment in my faith Journey was when Larry King appears sorry when when Gord B Hinckley appears on Larry King live and Larry King live asks Gordon B Hinckley about polygamy and Gordon B Hinckley basically I I'm probably mixing it up but I remember him saying like this is a flick of History it's no you know it's no longer Doctrine whatever words he used he really really wanted the world to just think that polygamy has nothing to do with with the current Church Jesus Christ celebrity saints that it's no longer a Doctrine and that we no longer practice it and uh and that that has also been a tactic that the church uses to basically say that's polygamy that's those weirdos down in Colorado City that's not something we're we're doing and what what's your response to that Mike yeah it's just you know as we start to wrap this up you know at the end of the day polygamy is the new and Everlasting Covenant that the Mormon Church absolutely believes will be practicing the eternity and as I mentioned earlier Russell Nelson and Dallin Oaks are both Eternal polygamous on this day and they both chose to marry a second wife that was not previously married and so to me that's a big tell that they believe that by marrying someone who wasn't sealed to another man they now have two wives for eternity and and I guess you could say it's a coincidence but to me I think that's a really important detail and so the church uses these word games to say that polygamy is over but CNC 132 is a canonized Revelation and the church's own essay considers the manifestos to remove polygamy inspired statements and so they say church leaders and members experiences these experience these challenges as they heeded the command to practice plural marriage and again later as they work to discontinue it after church president Wilford Woodruff it's issued an inspired statement known as the manifesto in 1890 which led to the end of plural marriage in the church and so plural marriage in the church is still going to be the doctrine for the eternities and the fact is DNC 132 is a canonized Revelation that they have not changed and even in their own words they do not consider the manifestos to be Revelations but inspired statements that are basically just making a change for time and so every woman that's watching this this is what you have to look forward to whether you like it or not and if you come to terms with it and you're okay with it that's fine but this is still Doctrine this has not gone away no matter what words the use the church wants to use to try to say that it's over yeah you know a lot of people um I don't know I feel like there's this kind of way to discredit ex-mormons who deconstructed because of polygamy like oh well they didn't know about polygamy I've always known about polygamy you know but I think I think for me personally I always knew about polygamy being in my Doctrine but it wasn't until I really took a closer look at how absurdly it is written and to look at all the details that we you know covered today and really I didn't start doing that until my deconstruction and that really just solidified to me that like this is this is contrived this isn't I I don't believe anymore that this was inspired by God so um I don't know I so I think there is this like kind of in between space too that we like believe that it's gonna happen I knew that at some point in my exalted State I would have to accept this and that and that being in an exalted state that I would be fine with it because this is Heavenly father's will you know but it wasn't until I really started to deconstruct it that I you know and looked at the details of this and how it's written really read DNC 132 you don't have to deviate from the scripture to really see the absurdity of it and um to make these comparisons and to see the discrepancies and to see the conflicts and to see how God is just kind of all over the place on this um that's that's where I'm at and I think and I think I probably speak for a lot of other people that have deconstructed that maybe they it's not that they didn't know about polygamy is that they just hadn't looked closely at it yeah absolutely um yeah um and and Mike let's go ahead and jump to I I have a final thing I want to say as well on this but let's go and jump to the next slide and then I'll make the point yeah yeah um you know and honestly the next slide we don't even really have to do it's just the kind of what Alicia was saying we often hear members say I'm so glad I have to live through polygamy and yet you do for eternity and then you also have the leader saying that phrase it'll all work out in the end you know but the people that it will work out for are the men who are telling you not to worry about it it's funny when the member the leaders of the church are telling these women who are worried about polygamy that it'll all work out in the end but the truth is but under their own Doctrine it's going to work out for those men because they're the ones that get to make the decisions uh which women they take in and which women they don't and you know you often hear I've heard I don't know if either of you've heard this but you'll hear women say oh I know that polygamy will be practicing the eternities but I've told my husband if he ever does it I'm gonna leave and I'm thinking to myself like you're gonna do what because you're either going to accept it or be destroyed like you don't get the option to just walk away and be fine so I I just I think that a lot of times we kind of ignore the elephants in the room because it would create a lot of you know pain cognitive dissonance whatever you want to call it to have to think about like do I really want to be in a church and worship a god that is going to have me set up for the eternities to either have to accept my husband having sex with other women for eternity or I get destroyed if you know if I don't go along with it I just I feel like to your point it's like people know about polygamy but they just don't want to know the details because once you know the details it forces you to have to make a decision about what you think about the legitimacy and The credibility of the people making those Revelations yeah absolutely yeah not to mention that are we not going to have agency in the Celestial Kingdom so like for those women who are like well I don't know I don't think I want to do that apparently there isn't a agency in the Celestial Kingdom because you're not going to have that ability to make that choice well I mean there's agency it's just your agency it's either choose to accept it or choose to be destroyed I mean that's and that's what we talk about with DNC 132 it's like yeah you have a choice and that's why from the husband's perspective like I said earlier and I know it sounds facetious but it's like hey baby I want to marry this girl and you could choose not to do it but I'm going to do it anyways and you're going to be the transgressor by God's words it's just that's why it gets so like cartoonishly bad because it doesn't make sense and it also it reads like it's written by someone who's trying to um create these loopholes because it just it just makes no sense to say to someone you can accept this and be blessed or you can reject it and I get to do it anyways and be blessed but you're going to be destroyed because now by God's own words the word they use is you become the transgressor it's like what so I yeah I just there's free agency but the free agency is always the same thing it's you have the free agency to choose to obey or else you're going to be punished so you know it's just it's silly it really is like sometimes you read it you're like this is nonsensical like it doesn't make sense and then when you try to make sense of it it's worse because then it turns God into a confused changing God to just like a bro at the bar who's trying to to find ways to score with chicks and I don't mean to sound facetious but read DNC 132 and tell me how that makes sense with a God that loves families that doesn't want us you know it just it doesn't work it is nonsensical but I prefer the term cartoonishly bad yeah yeah that's literally my favorite term from this entire Series yeah except that it that it has real impact on lives today and I'm gonna I'm gonna mention again a resource that I've mentioned many times during this series it's Carolyn Pearson's book The Ghost of Eternal polygamy I also have a podcast where I interviewed her about her book we'll include those in the show notes but she talks about how the this doctrine of Eternal polygamy continues to have very serious and deleterious uh effects on Mormon women and men to this day in 2022. um so it's cartoonish but it's cartoonish in kind of a horrific way yeah no I I do appreciate you pointing that out and and I want to be sensitive to you know I sometimes feel like because this is my family Legacy so to speak yeah yeah like have a little more room to kind of be light-hearted about it but um if I really were to get serious I think I would get very emotional about it because I come from a long light of First Wives and um there was a very interesting uh dissertation um that I think is still being worked on about the possibility of generational trauma coming from First Wives and um there are all sorts of implications there of having this trauma of knowing that you may not be in first place um at some point here so this is this is very painful to talk about so I do appreciate the levity but I I really appreciate you John for pointing out the seriousness this and we all three understand the seriousness of um and the implications even today and I know um the idea of generational trauma is I don't know if it's like a really credible science but I personally think that there is something to it I think personally I come from a line where there is generational trauma from um from being a first wife it's it is a very painful situation and I take deep offense to the laughter um in Congress you know when when uh general authorities um kind of joke about it and how funny that might be and um even one of the researchers that I was listening to that we've mentioned during this podcast had made a joke about well she's not my first wife or I wasn't looking for I don't remember what it was but I um I feel the pain of that sentiment and um and uh yeah it's painful so I appreciate you pointing that out John and I just want to convey to our audience that I do have a deep compassion and um and it Grieves me that this is something that we you know have to deal with as as as a people and to be clear Alicia I was not calling you out at all and I think it's number one I know that this is personal to you because of your own life and story so you have every right to both laugh and cry you you all of your emotions Alicia are valid I wasn't calling you out yeah sometimes you Gotta Laugh or you won't cry but this is the the way you know the Mormon church God you know wants to have it both ways the Mormon church God says he's he's has a house of order and he's not a god of confusion but the way that he rolls out his teachings in his Doctrine looks more like the Keystone Cops than it does uh a house of order and of course that's a that's a reference that dates me but it's just silliness and craziness and so please check out Carolyn Pearson's book and podcast the only other thing I was going to say just to give this context is if you want to understand what the Mormon church has to do and why they're treating it this way it's because you know what what the church values most is is its prophetic Authority because if it's church if it's leaders aren't speaking to God then then then the church has no power over its members and that's its that's it's that's its primary source of power in 2022. and so it's in this Catch-22 of it's got this embarrassing history these these embarrassing scriptures these embarrassing uh behaviors from past prophetsters and revelators that it needs to shed but as soon as it sheds them explicitly by denouncing them or by uh explicitly taking things out of the scriptures then immediately it's going to cause the members to say wait a minute if they got it wrong then if Joseph got it wrong if Brigham got it wrong if the scriptures can be wrong then what are you getting wrong now Mormon church leaders and so the church has to do this really awkward kabuki dance of of slowly no longer talking about or emphasizing past scriptures or doctrine redirecting members to to to new or evolve teachings without ever having any accountability or without ever sort of explicitly addressing the historical or the scriptural problems and it's all because they want to maintain their power and their prophetic Authority and to explicitly address these issues in an honest way would literally be to undermine their own prophetic Authority and that's why they do it yeah yep 100 percent okay so did you did you already cover this slide this is what every woman in the church has to look forward to you did yeah yeah and we can end with the conclusions on Joseph Smith and Mormon polygamy yeah and honestly we've pretty much done on the conclusion already it's just we've done six episodes now and I hope it's clear why polygamy is such an important issue to understand um and what it tells us about Joseph Smith and his ability not just to create scripture but to use this authority to get members to do what he wants what his desires are and I've mentioned this before but polygamy is is a topic for me that's difficult and that's why you might hear me get a little angry in these episodes compared to the early ones and and to your point earlier about calling you know I didn't want uh Alicia to feel to feel like she was being called out because honestly it should be me because I was being more facetious about it because when you read this stuff it has implications that are really bad and it also has a lot of contradictions and problems which tell you that it's not true but it does still impact people and so for someone like I'm in a mixed Faith marriage there are implications there as I mentioned earlier whereas in DNC 132 says basically your wife's can be taken and given to another dude for eternity and that's weird to me um and there are a lot of marriages today where uh the the spouses depending on which which one is believing which one isn't they have no idea what their attorney is going to be like because if you believe this to be from God this has real world implications and um we also have all of the problems that you guys um both just alluded to where you know I've heard people talk about this too where they say well um if we get to the eternities and my husband dies first and he takes another wife before I get there and the other wife is better at sex or better at cooking or is funnier than all of a sudden he's going to want to spend more time with her and that's why you have um you know I always look at it as Joseph Smith created like the ultimate Trophy Wife system where he could basically take younger women um that he liked and pray and we hear this um from church um historians before they actually say it was usually the second wife that was treated the best because that was the one they picked because they wanted to be with them uh they wanted to show them off around town and so there is the competition that's created and so when God says through Joseph Smith that he's done all of the calculations and this is going to give you the most happiness um the the evidence of that has shown that is not true the essay admits that people had a horrible time with it and so it just shows that God can uh if you believe this was from God does not deliver on the promises he makes this is not what made people happy the fact that it had to be taken away four years after he said it was ever you know Everlasting it could not be revoked it just shows you that if you really want to believe this from God you have to answer all of these problems that come underneath it and as we talked about these have real world implications today um that I think everyone has to come to terms with if you want to still believe in the church even though you know what you're going to be subjected to more power to you um but I think the church does a real disservice to members by telling them that this is over because it is absolutely not over and that the actions of Russell Nelson and dominate jokes in like I said marrying two each having a second wife that is not previously sealed tells you they believe that this this is going to be Doctrine for eternity so if they believe it and if they're acting and preparing as if it does why in the world should you believe that it's over I guess that's right where I come down to it at the end Alicia yeah well I just want to say I really appreciate all the time that you put into this mic this has been a really great series it's been a great eye-opener for me just digging into it to prepare um and I think it's just so interesting how we view these situations you know you were talking about your particular lens of being in a mixed Faith marriage and how you probably you probably identify with certain characters in this story and I identify with certain characters of this story when I read Emma's story I see my grandmother when I read the stories of these young girls I I think of my young adult daughter um and you know it's just a whole mixture of emotions here it's painful it's um absurd you know it's angering and I think it's important as we dig into church history and we start to feel all these emotions that we just really validate ourselves in in every bit of it there's going to be anger there's going to be frustration there's going to be regret um and I think that we just have to really be gentle with ourselves and allow ourselves to move through these these stories um with with that Grace and just know that it's going to be um it's it's going to be multifaceted beautiful thank you Alicia um Mike there is one more slide do we want to cover that or it's up to you I mean we've kind of covered it it's more just to say you know I've talked about this before but just look at what Joseph Smith did in the six episodes we've covered and ask yourself would you believe this is from God if it was another religious leader because we've talked about how Joseph is using incorrect Bible references to justify this practice we've shown that the gospel topics essay uses these citations that don't even say what they're saying it says God never commands Abraham into polygamy um and then like we talked about in the episodes that we did on the proposals you know proposing the girls in vulnerable situations having them live in his household making Eternal promises if they do it Eternal threats if they don't what would you say if this is another religious leader and I think that's one of the the hardest things to do is to stop engaging in special pleading but for me when you look at these six episodes if you put any other name besides Warren or besides Joseph Smith every member of the church would say oh yeah this is this is like a Warren Justin kind of thing or this is a you know David Crush thing and it just shows that I think the more we learn about polygamy the more you start to see the patterns between what Joseph Smith did and what every other you know kind of scandalous religious leader did and and I think once you get to that point you can kind of know whether or not this is from God all right well Mike I want to thank you so much for this amazing series both broadly LDS discussions and specifically um you know this polygamy series and today's episode I just have so many people telling me how much this series is meaning to them so thank you Mike thank you and and the big star uh for this mini series is Alicia and thank you so much for taking so much time to do all of these you everybody has just loved your input loved your demeanor so thank you so much I'm so glad you stuck with us for all these episodes it I really do appreciate it I appreciate being part of it I realize you feel honored to be to be on this show explicitly this series so thank you both so much and at least I at least already played you the I Want You Back clip so you got to come back yeah all right sounds good I think I think everyone watching uh should send messages to Alicia to let her know that she should come on some uh more of these episodes so that um we can convince her to come back for some more later on because she's been such a great input and such a great voice and like I said I love the way she approaches it um and I just I couldn't think of anyone who could have done it better so thank you so much I appreciate that I appreciate that so much guys thank you and check out Alicia's Tick Tock Channel at Faith unraveled on tick tock I do love my Tick Tock Community we got a big Community there all right thanks guys and viewers and listeners again you can follow this uh series on Mormon stories podcast wherever you find it or you can go to the Spotify uh feed for the LDS discussion series and view or listen to the episode there you can watch all these videos in succession at the playlist the LDS discussions playlist on uh on Mormon stories podcast face uh YouTube channel and um yeah we really appreciate your feedback please share these episodes with anyone you want uh please spread the word uh we really appreciate if you're following us on YouTube please subscribe on YouTube or wherever we're trying to reach 100 000 subscribers on YouTube that would be a real Milestone and we need everyone subscribing to make that happen um and then we could never do any of this without your financial support so thanks to everyone who donates to Mormon stories in the open stories foundation and if you want to support programming like this and other programming you can go to mormonstories.org click on the Donate button and become a monthly donor all right everyone you guys take care we love you be kind to each other be good to each other and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon stories podcast take care everyone