The Happiness Letter (Joseph Smith's Proposition to Nancy Rigdon)
Original Air Date: 2022-11-10 • Duration: 2h 56m
This video features a discussion between host John Dehlin, Mike from "LDS Discussions," and "Nemo the Mormon" regarding Joseph Smith’s "Happiness Letter." The episode analyzes the historical context, content, and theological implications of a letter Joseph Smith wrote to 19-year-old Nancy Rigdon in 1842 as a proposal for plural marriage.
Here is a detailed summary of the video based on the provided transcript:
Historical Context and The Proposal
The "Happiness Letter" Analysis
The video analyzes the text of the letter Joseph Smith wrote to Nancy Rigdon after her rejection to persuade her to accept the arrangement.
4. The Apple AnalogyJoseph compares the situation to a parent whipping a child for stealing an apple versus giving the child the apple if they ask for it. He argues that if the child asks (obeys the commandment), "all the pleasures of the apple would have been secured" 19.
5. Spiritual Extortion and ThreatsThe letter alternates between promises of blessings and threats of eternal loss. It warns that "blessings offered but rejected are no longer blessings" and will be taken away 23.
6. The "Liberal" GodJoseph writes that God is "more liberal in his views... than we are ready to believe" 25.
Fallout and Conclusion
Condensed ~5 minute video overview of the full episode, AI-generated by NotebookLM.
Condensed podcast-style audio overview of the full episode, AI-generated by NotebookLM.
AI-generated slideshow powered by NotebookLM (multi-page PDF)
AI-generated infographic powered by NotebookLM (single-page PDF)
hello everyone and welcome to another edition of morning Stories podcast I'm your host John delin it's September 14th 2022 and we are here um we are here back for our weekly series titled LDS discussions where we are dealing with uh various Mormon truth claims we're going to deal with at least 40 to 50 Mormon truth claims we're kind of smack dab in the middle um we are in our uh in the sequence we are in the the polygamy section which is going to have probably at least five if not more uh individual episodes uh today the topic is Joseph Smith's happiness letter as it relates to uh the practice of polygamy uh just just to make sure as I mentioned in all of these LDS discussions episodes there is a website at ldsdiscussions.com where our dear friend Mike who is a convert to Mormonism who married into the church uh and then went through a faith crisis afterwards after learning a bunch of things that he was never taught as an adult investigator Mike has spent countless hours putting together this amazing website at ldsdiscussions.com uh examining Mormon truth claims and I highly recommend it today uh the web the app the essay that uh corresponds with this episode is ldsdiscussions.com happiness and um just for those who love this series specifically we want to remind you all that you can access it um through the Mormon stories podcast uh feed on the Mormon stories podcast YouTube channel but you can also access it individually these episodes separately either through the Apple podcast app wherever you get your podcasts and audio form or on Spotify there's an LDS discussions podcast Standalone where you can access it both in audio and video format and there's a YouTube playlist where you can just watch all of the LDS discussions episodes in sequence and I have to say that I've just been getting incredibly positive feedback about this series and now without any further Ado I'll bring on Mike and Nemo hey Mike thanks for joining us hey everybody good to be back and Nemo we're so glad this is an issue Nemo you feel strongly about you've actually done a Nemo the Mormon uh review of the happiness letter and so you've you've got some passion that you're going to be masking as as we try to be as objective as possible and just lay out the facts is that right absolutely right I'm gonna be this monkey like like this monkey and junkie like this monkey you know yeah we're gonna we're gonna keep it objective we're gonna keep it to the facts we're gonna be gracious um as best we can because we want we want viewers and listeners to be able to reach their own conclusions and our goal is just for someone wanting to learn the evidence like you Mike that you never learned as an investigator like you Nemo that you never learned as a lifelong Mormon we just want to educate people and then allow them to reach their own decisions having said that we're all going to bring passion that we're gonna try and and control and bridle as much as we can yeah it's an emotive issue yeah yeah this this one you know we've done what 20 something episodes and I'm gotten to a point where I can talk about the first Vision the priesthood restoration a lot of those issues with Biblical scholarship I don't really feel that when I'm talking about now because I'm far enough away from it I feel like I have um gotten enough time to kind of grasp all of that stuff to where I don't feel emotional but this one still does because this is um as I've mentioned in previous episodes polygamy was the thing that always bothered me as a member of the church um I'm still a member but as an active member of the church because I used to sit there and um I don't want to go too much into my personal story but my wife and I started dating when we were very young and I just remember when we were still young and you're around a lot of people you know you still have like a lot of that getting jealousy when you're with other groups and all that I remember thinking like in my head like how does polygamy make people happy for eternity if the wife is subject to watching her husband go around uh with different women all the time like that was the thought that never left my head as a convert and as a believing member and so when you finally start to dive into this stuff it's just really um difficult sometimes to um to be able to read this and to not have an emotional response so we're gonna do our best to keep it as tempered as we can um as I've mentioned in previous episodes we're not cherry picking the worst data we're not cherry picking the most uh salacious detail that we can to make Joseph Smith look bad this is just trying to find what we feel are the most important events and this one is in my opinion the most important document and um I would argue event with Joseph Smith and polygamy because it gives us a bird's eye view into a proposal that he made with a letter in his own words as to how he's justifying plugging me to these women and we have a lot of accounts for women that we've talked about when they talk about how Joseph Smith approached them but this is in his own words and is being dictated by a scribe um from his mouth so this is a direct source of Joseph Smith's just justification of polygamy and the ways that he's proposing to women and so for me this is one of the most important episodes we're going to do for this whole series and I I would say it's the most important polygamy episode we're going to do because I think a lot of people who might be listening or watching have seen some of the details of polygamy from CS letter or Fair Mormon or even the church's gospel topics essay but this one is one that has been rarely talked about um until Jonathan Streeter brought it through a presentation at Sunstone which we're going to touch on a lot and so I'm just going to give them a quick shout out now he's been mentioned multiple times Jonathan Streeter is one of those people that not only has a great YouTube channel but he does a fantastic job of keeping his material very level um not very over the top emotional he does a great job making it so that someone who's a Believer can watch it and not feel um constantly attacked so if you've never checked out thoughts on things and stuff do that and we're going to cover a lot of his work in this episode and then also some of our own thoughts tying into previous episodes as well well absolutely huge fan of Jonathan Streeter I'll put thoughts on things and stuff Link in the show notes uh it's it's super important and also we'll put a link to Nemo's Nemo's summary you Nemo you're able to do the happiness that are in like five minutes isn't that right yeah yeah I can cover this in five minutes and even Street or even Streeter said that was brilliant so all right without any further ado let's jump to what is Joseph Smith's happiness letter yeah and so the opening line of the letter it says happiness is the object and design of our existence and it's a line that's been cited by church leaders by Educators and by profits over the last 150 years and by itself it's a truly uplifting idea from Joseph Smith and what most people do not know is that this quote comes from a letter that Joseph Smith wrote in 1842 to then 19 year old Nancy Rigdon and so by April of 1842 Joseph Smith was already married to about 10 women and would marry about 13 more in 1842 alone Joseph Smith made proposals to many women that year and one of those women was 19 year old Nancy Rigdon who was the daughter of Sydney Rigdon who was kind of like the number two in the church um and keep in mind this is after Oliver cowdery is is excommunicated so Sydney is really um one of Joseph's top men um him and John C Bennett got very you know John C Bennett did get very close to him at this time but Sydney Reagan was there the whole time and the one thing we will note right away is we can't know if exact certainty would happen during this proposal uh because obviously we weren't there but we do know that Nancy Rigdon rejected Joseph's original overtures and proposal um this is confirmed both by her brother which is a late recollection but he does confirm it and then also by the fact that we have this letter um and the more contemporaneous accounts from John C Bennett um who got the letter and released it um so we know that Joseph Smith uh dictates an authors a letter to Nancy Rigdon to explain why this proposal is from God and why this is um the right choice for her to marry Joseph Smith and so as I mentioned earlier just a huge huge huge um shout out to Jonathan Streeter I'm Christopher C Smith was also on the podcast both of them uh did a podcast with Bill real on the happiness letter and I would absolutely recommend anyone when you're done with this one to listen to theirs because they're going to go over a lot more historical detail about things surrounding the letter they're going to give you different perspectives on the letter and it was really one of those you know there's a handful of podcasts that I listened to and I just thought wow this completely just blew me away and this one absolutely is one of them so just a huge shout out to him for bringing this to at least to my attention because I had never heard of this and I I know for a fact about it um that most members do not because I've asked people that I've had conversations with about them they're like I have no idea what you're talking about so this is a really important one okay so Nancy Rigdon is to set the stage Nancy ridden is 19 years old she's the daughter of Sydney Rigdon Joseph's already married 10 women I think we'll you know just to reiterate the main reason Oliver Calgary was excommunicated is because as we mentioned in past episodes he he found out about Joseph Smith having sex with Fannie Alger likely in the barn called it an adult filthy now nasty dirty adulterous Affair and that's why Joseph excommunicated him um and so you know that's why people I'd see new rig did and John C Bennett Ascend because they had to fill the vacuum created by Oliver caldery who called Joseph out on sexual impropriety right yeah I mean I think um I think there's other reasons that are claimed but obviously him uh believing Joseph had an affair with Fanny Alger I think was obviously a massive or at least a significant reason why they had a falling away because as you talk about our priesthood restoration episode Oliver cowdery gets elevated to second in the church in 1835 after he is the first one to introduce the story of the Angelic restoration of the priests in 1834 um so to to have a revelation that they kind of back date to say that Oliver is supposed to be the number two in the church and then a few years after that he's excommunicated it tells you that Oliver made serious charges against Joseph that could not basically be allowed to stay um so Oliver's excommunicated and as you said said that allows Sydney Rigdon to kind of reclaim his number two spot and then when John C Bennett shows up he you know him and Joseph Smith become close very quickly and that allows him both inside information and also creates a lot of headaches for Joseph Smith later on both with polygamy and just as the church as a whole okay um all right let's go to the next slide and so this is where the story kind of to give background and what leads up to this letter so around April 9th 1842 um Joseph Smith proposes to Nancy Rigdon this proposal was actually set up by Nancy Miranda Hyde and um some records go by Miranda Nancy but just for the sake of this we're going to go with Nancy Marinda Hyde who was living in the printing office that the church had taken over and she was actually sealed to Joseph Smith in either April of 1842 or may of 1843. um Joseph Smith's own journal says April of 1842 and that to me seems to line up a little better with the story um what's interesting about this is that Joseph Smith is going to give this Revelation to Nancy Miranda Hyde in December of 1841 which is right after he sends or I should say it's after he sends her husband Orson Hyde on a mission and so the Revelation says the following verily thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph that in as much as you have called upon me to know my will concerning my handmaid Nancy Miranda Hyde the told it is my will that she should have a better place prepared for than that which she now lives in order that her life may be spared unto her therefore go and sand my servant Ebenezer Robinson into my handmaid his wife let them open their doors and take her and her children into their house and take care of them faithfully and kindly unto my servant Orson hide returns from his mission or until some other provision can be made for her welfare and safety let them to these things and spare not and I the Lord will bless them and heal them if they do not do it grudgingly saith the Lord God and she shall be a blessing unto them and let my handmaid Nancy Miranda hide hearken to the counsel of my servant Joseph in all things whatsoever he shall teach unto her and it shall be a blessing upon her and upon her children after her unto her justification saith the Lord so Nemo I'm going to ask you can you restate what that letter is is saying in your words just if you've asked me about Miranda about Nancy Miranda Hyde and I want to tell you while the husband's away in the Middle East preparing the work of the Gospel out there I need you to look after her she's gonna go live with some other people she needs a better place to live and she is to listen to you and hearken them to whatever you say and I think that might become important okay yeah yeah all right that seems to be in in his it is kind of it is clear away as I can put it that is what God is saying to to Joseph in that Revelation yeah yes and I think the next slide puts a fine point on it is that right Mike yeah okay so let's go to the next slide so as I mentioned Joseph Smith is going to give this Revelation um to Nancy Miranda after sending Orson on a mission so um Orson High descent on a mission to Jerusalem in April of 1841 and in December of 1841 uh Joseph Smith is going to give Nancy the Revelation which states that she needs to hearken to the Council of my servant Joseph in all things whatsoever he shall teach unto her and it shall be a blessing upon her and upon her children after her unto her justification saith the Lord and so we talked about this her role in the Nancy written proposal is going to become important to the story but she's also going to become one of Joseph Smith's polyandra's wives and this is going to be almost certainly without the knowledge of her husband Orson Hyde because as we mentioned in Joseph's Journal they are married together in April of 1842 um and Orson height is still gone and this is going to be tying perfectly to um to the Nancy um a Rigdon proposal and so um what I would point out and what Nemo just said is that Joseph Smith um is using the voice of God whether you believe it's a revelation or Joseph Smith but through the voice of God he's saying to Nancy that he that she needs to basically listen to Joseph Smith in any possible thing that he tells her and this is happening at the same time that Joseph Smith is literally taking control of Nancy's um Nancy Miranda Heights living situation so he's putting in a better place to live while at the same time telling her that she needs to to basically accept anything that Joseph Smith teaches her and of course Nancy Miranda Hyde took this Revelation seriously because not only is she going to agree to become a polyandrous wife of Joseph Smith but she becomes a willing recruiter to help Joseph Smith obtain more wives and this is another thing that I think a lot of people don't understand because they'll say well Joseph Smith did marry some women that he didn't have sex with or he married some women that were a little older but what they don't understand is that there are a handful um I think there's at least three um maybe more of these older women or these women he doesn't have sex with that he uses to recruit other wives and I think one of the terms that was used was mothers in Zion I believe was a term for that and so in this case there are rumors that Joseph Smith has a sexual relation with Nancy Marina Hyde but more you know more tangibly we can see um that Nancy is going to be used as basically a go go between for Joseph and potential um polygamous wives which serves Joseph Smith's purpose really well because then if the wives recoil gives Joseph a little bit of plausible deniability to say well you know they were kind of just talking to them and just asking questions as opposed to um Joseph being in the room doing it and I think that's a really important note and if if I'm thinking about some I don't want to say let's say documentaries from either high demand religions or if you want to say cult uh not to call Mormonism a cult but there is this pattern whether it's Keith rainieri with Nexium or um David korash of the Waco Branch Davidian the Waco stuff or Warren Jeffs or whatever number one the leader having multiple women seems to be just this endless pattern but also using the women to recruit other women that's absolutely for example what what Keith Renee did with Nexium so this is kind of this is kind of following that pattern yeah and the other thing I would I would say is um we we often reflect heavily on the effect that polygamy has on women and they are ultimately the victims in this but you also have the effect this will have on awesome hide Orson Hyde is thousands of miles away from home he has gone there on his sincere belief that he is doing what God wants and what God has commanded him to do through his servant Joseph Smith yep that's that's his headspace he gives a beautiful dedicatory prayer while he's out there he dedicates the land to the work of the building and put the gospel and while that's happening that trust that he has placed in Joseph is certainly not being upheld if not betrayed when Joseph is essentially secretly marrying his wife while he's away and that is heartbreaking to me and is one of the maybe less talked about effects of polygamy is that these men have their wives stolen away from them yeah and I think if I remember correct I'd have to look it up I think um Nancy Miranda Hyde might get a divorce from Joseph and resale to Orson later on I'm not positive on that but um with polyandry we talked about it in a previous episode the fact is if Joseph Smith takes a wife who is married to a a member of the church um Joseph then in theory is sealed to both her and her kids and kind of takes the family of of the other man and that is not to say that polygamy is more difficult for men but just to say that there are implications um that are really horrific within polyandry as well and polygamy too um that are kind of not talked about as much like you said and the fact that he sends you know almost certainly would give Orson High to Revelation to go to to um to Jerusalem and so he gives Orson high this Revelation you know go and preach the gospel and you'll be blessed and then while he's gone he's telling his wife uh basically that you know God is telling her to marry Joseph Smith because they're going to get married while he's gone on it's just it and then we look at the the Warren Jeffs uh and other characters like that and you know particularly in one of the most recent documentaries that's been done about uh kind of the flds community you look at what effect it has on young men because there's the jealousy of those older men who are accruing wives uh and that especially is important because we have to take it out of this often held apologist narrative or context or certainly what a lot of people grow up believing is that polygamy only existed because there was a dearth of men there wasn't enough men around yeah and that's just not the case because Joseph was taking wives of men that were already married yeah so it wasn't these women needed someone uh that's not that's not the case but that's what a lot of people grow in the church often believe about polygamy yeah and and you know the the thing we talked about in one of our earlier episodes on polygamy is the fact that Joseph Smith introduces this law of adoption which is where you conceal men to other men as like adopted stepchilder adopted Sons or whatever and so Joseph Smith in this case could have sealed himself to Orson Hyde and had Orson hide as like a adoptive son or whatever the case might be which would then seal himself to Nancy Miranda Hyde without actually needing to take her as a polyandrous wife which would then leave Orson Hyde really out in the cold um just as any other man who would be in that situation would be and so the fact is yeah he and we're gonna get we'll we'll talk about the law of adoption with Nancy Rickman as well because that that is something when apologists say that Joseph Smith needed to do this for a dynastic ceiling or to create this eternal bond that kills the law of adoption kills that apologetic right off the bat because he could have done that with Nancy Rigdon and adopted her as a daughter and avoided all of this and yet he chooses the other path and we'll get into this so what that does is essentially that puts you in the position and you say okay well Joseph had this alternative and he may have had a reason not to use this alternative but then the question becomes why and that's what the apologists need to answer they need to ask a question of why didn't he use this established and available option yep instead of just taking them as straight up wives yeah exactly because if you want to argue that this isn't I'm not saying it's 100 about sex but if you want to argue that polygamy wasn't about sex then you have to ask why didn't Joseph Smith use the law of adoption which was readily available and used um to seal himself to these families which would have accomplished the exact same thing without the need for sex without the need for blowing up the potential of other people's families um through polyandry and that to me tells you that whether or not sex was the primary motivation it's a motivation it's an important motivation um and I think that's something um that apologists want to try to escape by because of the fact that it basically really shakes a lot of people when they find out these details especially about things like this but um we also have to be aware of the fact that it's a motivating factor because Joseph Smith is making a deliverer's choice to make it a motivating factor and also I possibly control because yeah look at Joseph inserting himself into the marital relationships of members of his congregation which gives him an incredible amount of control over the men in his congregation yes because he's like well I'm married I'm CO2 wife so you better kind of stay with the program um and also then they're all sharing in if it was just some kooky Mormon um some kooky Mormon belief about Joseph was gathering all these families around him there wouldn't have been the objection exactly from a lot of the people at the time yeah whereas it was very much something that needed to be kept secret because a lot of people objected to this idea of polygamous marriages of plural marriages and so you're Gathering people into this shared secret that could destroy them just as much as it could destroy Joseph yep that's and that was one of the things I think we talked about our first plug me episode which is sorry Joseph no no no it's not that it's just Joseph Smith with polygamy a lot of times we'll play bring these men in and talk to him about it and then once they accept it it's almost like they have mutually assured destruction if anyone talks about it or if anyone accuses each other and um and I think that plays a role in in the fact that I think Lindsey Hansen Park talked about this on some of her podcast as well which is that Joseph Smith often would bring people under the circle because once they're in that Circle they're complicit and once they're complicit Joseph does hold power over them because there is that there is that he can basically take them down um and then like as you said you're also holding this power because you are now approving their marriages you're approving their Eternal um belief that they're gonna be with their family and so Joseph Smith does hold a lot of power once he is the person at the top of all of these marriages which He makes himself because he has to approve of all of them so this is a big you know there's sex there's power um some people argue there's money in some of them but I mean there's no way to get around it because he could avoid all of that by using the law of adoption if he wanted to and he always chose not I mean shouldn't say always he chose not to with these women okay so back to the slide Nancy Miranda hide who Joseph has sent her husband on to be out of the country she becomes the the means by which Nancy Rigdon becomes recruited or the attempt at recruitment comes through yes it can you do me one favor John can you go back a slide real quick yeah okay so I just want to point this out because this is something that came that I kind of thought of when I was doing these slides if you read the last the very last part it says and let my handmade Nancy Miranda hide hearken to the council my servant Joseph and all things whatsoever he shall teach under her um the language there is very similar to DNC 132 which I realize you know if you believe they're from God of course you do a similar language I do find it um just noteworthy though that Joseph is using very similar language about the and let my handmade stuff you know do and it's just a small note we can go you know go forward I just know it's interesting for me the question that this sort of invokes in my head is why are some why are some Revelations included in the Doctrine and Covenants and others left out uh this one's not in there if this is clearly it's clearly the Lord saying something to Nancy and and that's that matches the the format of pretty much every DNC verse that I'm aware of if it's the Lord telling Nancy what she should do why in the heck wouldn't that be included there's so many mundane sections of the Doctrine and Covenants where God's like go try and sell the copyright to the Book of Mormon or Martin Harris give me all your money or you know like Oliver you can't translate this or that without the power of God why wouldn't this be included that seems a little bit sketchy to me yeah it's it's definitely interesting because obviously as we've talked about throughout these these episodes there are deliberate choices being made as to what the church is willing to present I don't know if this is because they don't want to advertise that Joseph was engaging in polyandry at this point I don't know but that's a possibility it's definitely definitely a deliberate Choice yeah so just just to add some fats and figures to that feed real quick John um because that was December 1841 correct yes so in July 1841 DNC 126 is revealed and that is Brigham Young being commended for his labors and is relieved of Future travel abroad then the next Revelation in chronological order that is recorded in Doctrine covenants doesn't come until September 1842 over a year later there's there's no there's no DNC added until a real later and that's 127 which is Joseph Smith um giving directions on baptism for the Dead interesting and what do you make of that Nemo I I just I funny and I I'm not sure what I make of it just yet um because I just thought of it on the fly but there's there's it's very interesting that there's over a year of Joseph's been getting Revelations clearly we can see evidence here he's been getting them but not recording them yeah okay maybe this is a a time in his life when he's amassing he's trying to consolidate and so just a lot of his Revelation is very interpersonal and it's yeah a lot of those interpersonal Revelations maybe aren't being included uh no put it in the comments what you think people okay because I think that's a that's an interesting yeah I mean it's you know we talk about secrecy with when we talked about we did our episode on the Masons in the temple and with polygamy a lot of this about secrecy and so it could just be that this is one of those areas where the church just didn't want to put it out publicly whereas we obviously know it's recorded because we have the the record of the Revelation but again it's a deliberate choice and they chose like you said to leave a little bit of a black hole of Revelation in that time frame when he's ramping up polygamy okay yeah all right let's go to Joseph clears out the printing office for private meetings yeah and so as we talked about in the last Revelation Nancy Miranda Hyde is ordered to live with Ebenezer Robinson and his wife because he controls the printing office and of course Ebenezer takes her in because it's a revelation from God so of course he's going to take her in and her kids to live with them um but just a month and a half later uh Joseph then gets another Revelation that the church is to take control of the printing office which they do and they purchase it from Ebenezer Robinson for six thousand dollars on February 4th 1842 so just a week later after Joseph claims this Revelation Ebenezer Robinson sells because he realizes you know at this point if he refuses he's going against what he believes is the word of God on the day that the deed was transferred and you got to keep in mind this is February 4th um in in the dead of winter in navo Illinois uh Willard Richards uh who would then live in the printing office with Nancy Hyde which was very scandalous at the time told Ebenezer Robinson you must get out tonight or I will put you in the street so imagine that this guy is living in this printing office he brings in Nancy Miranda Hyde at the request of Joseph you know through God um and then another Revelation comes a month later just upending this guy's life and saying we're basically taking the we're going to buy the printing office and then the day it's sold he's told get out or I'll put you in the street in the middle of the winter and the reason this is important is because this is right as everything's ramping over the polygamy and now Joseph Smith has a place where he can conduct meetings um polygamous proposals any of that which is in secret away from his wife Emma it's in a printing office which gives great cover it's not like you just go into some random person's house or some empty abandoned building and you know just a few months later Joseph is going to instruct Nancy Miranda Hyde to request Nancy Rigdon to go to this printing office to speak to Joseph A following a funeral that her father Sydney Rigdon was speaking at on the subject of happiness and so all of these things are leading up to this letter and it's showing how Joseph Smith is creating different ways to create secret meetings with these potential wives away from Emma and also you know I think in a lot of ways it's the cruelty of what he used um what he did to Ebenezer Robinson and if you believe that Joseph Smith was um an author of his Revelations then it's incredibly cruel because he's putting him out on the street in the middle of winter because he wants a place where he can conduct meetings and if you believe it is from God it's still pretty cruel because it gave him no chance to find a warm place um to to live after selling the printing office that he had been you know living in yeah Joseph gets a revelation from God saying oh I need to put Nancy in better housing and in better condition is the will of God that she'd be in a better circumstance yeah why is it not the will of God that this guy doesn't get moved to a nicer house right gets kicked out yeah sorry I just want to put it like that you know no it's and that's the thing one of the things and we might need to do an episode on this because I had typed up on the website one of the first things I did was I you know a lot of these Revelations are awfully convenient and um it's one of the things especially when you we'll do we've got a bunch of episodes on Revelation down the road but this is an area where you go how in the world is Joseph getting these very specific revelations in one area and obviously both Joseph and the church cannot do it on others and as you said it all of these seem to point to benefiting Joseph's Immediate needs and not the needs of the other people who are basically you know in the way of those needs and and Ebenezer Robinson obviously wasn't going to fight Joseph Smith he would have lost if he had tried um but yeah it's just it's it's awful convenient I guess that would be just the way I'd put it got it I mean to me I almost am wondering whether he's setting Nancy Marinda Hyde up to be a kept woman so to speak like well yeah there's so there's rumors um that Willard Richards and Nancy Miranda Hyde were having sexual relations there's a there's a lot of rumors of that and um I believe John C Bennett said that um Willard Richards was hiding in the printing offices of like a pun you know hiding with Nancy ran to hide so there's a lot of rumors that that Willard Richards because his wife was in Boston I think in Massachusetts I think she stayed behind so this was awful convenient for Willard Richards as well um which again it just blurs the lines even more because Joseph is going to be sealed to her uh in April of 1842 um but it does appear there are multiple accounts that she was having um a relationship with Willard Richards which would make sense because they're living alone in a printing office Willard Richards boarded the windows up so no one could see in um he shot a gun off in the in the middle of the street one of the accounts said is a way to give cover that maybe they had to board the windows because they were under threat of of mobs or theft um but all of these things all of these accounts are contemporaneous um whether or not you think that they're I think John C Bennett has a lot of them so some people want to dismiss them but we do know that this happened um that they were living together it which was very scandalous and was set up directly by Joseph Smith so so of course rumors fly it's like it was scandalous exactly okay so uh so Willard Richards is out on his ear Nancy Miranda Hyde is set up and Joseph's now got a place and uh Ebenezer Robinsons sorry sorry Ebenezer Robinson's out on azir thank you Nemo and Joseph's got a place to make proposals or conduct whatever transactions he wants to conduct all right now this is um from 1845 this is from Orson Heights so this is after the fact but this quote is important because it confirms that Joseph Smith did have a secret meeting with Nancy Rigdon and so he says during my absence to Palestine the conduct of his daughter Nancy became so notorious in the city according to Common rumor she was regarded generally little if any better than a public prostitute Joseph Smith knowing the conduct she was guilty of felt anxious to reprove and reclaim her if possible he accordingly requested my wife to invite her down to her house he wished to speak with her and show her the impropriety of being gallanted uh shoot by so many different men many of whom were comparatively strange strangers to her Nancy I presume considered her dignity highly insulted at the plain and Sharpie proofs she received from the servant of God she ran home and told her father that Mr Smith wanted her for a spiritual wife and that he employed my wife to assist in obtaining her um we don't have to go into how horrific orson's quote is it's just important to note that we have a negative Source who doesn't like Nancy Regner who even who still has to admit that Joseph used his wife to get a secret meeting with her and um there is absolutely no contemporaneous record of Nancy having any kind of of rumors about you know shacking up with a bunch of dudes um this is typically what happens in early Mormonism when you um talk about what some of the leaders are doing they literally will turn that same thing back around and he on you and so Nancy Rigdon let out that Joseph Smith wanted her for a polygamous wife she rejected him and because of that then they threw basically sexual charges back at her and we'll get into this at the end because this is part of the The Fallout from it but this is a pattern um within Joseph Smith especially where as soon as you turn on him he will throw everything he has at you and um we'll get to that later but I just want to use this quote to show that we have a negative Source who doesn't like Nancy Rigdon confirming that this meeting took place and it's important to point that out about the negative source that essentially it happened and whatever reason Orson Hyde is giving for it having happened whatever reason he was told by Joseph because he arrived back in after the fact or by his wife he arrived back in after the fact it doesn't matter why they told him that it happened they told him that it happened that media did take place yes and and I'll point out um if if Joseph Smith really believed that Nancy rignton was such a that she was out um I believe I believe the phrase Orson used at one point was that if he had asked her to be a carnal carnal wife she would over some but um you know they called her a in the newspapers they called her everywhere um if you really believe that would he need to have a secret meeting wouldn't he couldn't he call her in when Emma's there to talk to her I mean it's just a publicly rebuke her yeah it just shows how nonsensical it is to go through us all of this work to have a secret meeting with someone who apparently was so notoriously shacking up with everyone in the town like it's so ridiculous he's opening himself up to rumors that he is sleeping with the public prostitute as it was Yeah by having a secret meeting with her whereas if he reproved her publicly and out in the open I mean I guess you could I guess you could argue that he's being like Jesus and like you know how Jesus talked to everybody including the prostitute or whatever you could argue that he's being christ-like I mean yeah but Jesus knelt down with him in the street often he didn't go to impressed with them yeah she just didn't sense so Jesus didn't send someone out in the middle of the night in the cold so they could bring the prostitute in in the quiet of day when no one could see them that we know of that we know of right I'm just being I'm being a little silly no I I know it's just this stuff this is where it just makes me just makes my voice it is important to say that John and to to try this and you know that Joseph could have had motives other than the ones that we are possibly um describing to him absolutely I mean we weren't there and so we weren't there at the meeting but unfortunately for Joseph we have the letter um which would tell you that absolutely this is not what happened and it just shows the the punishment in this time for speaking out against Joseph Smith was you know pretty strong very strong and like I said we've got we'll get into that a little bit at the end after the letter we'll talk about some of the Fallout from it but this is something that happens a lot in early Mormonism whereas if you speak out against what Joseph Smith is doing he will put everything he has against you because he would rather you know obviously you be be pulled down than him so um this is a case where I just wanted to confirm that it happened and so um one thing we want to get into here is that this proposal to Nancy Reagan is happening at a time when there are rumors flying around the area and um John C Bennett is this guy that if you read the Saints book if you're you know in church he has just talked about as like the worst human being um he is the guy that everyone Associates with spiritual wifery um but one of the things to point out is that John C Bennett was very close to Joseph Smith um when this all happens and they were you know hand in hand Joseph Smith kept promoting him throughout the church it was one of the things when I was reading the Saints book and doing the check by check I did not know that because as a convert I didn't go through Seminary and so I you know I don't even know if they talk about John C Bennett in seminary but this dude was yeah this dude was just pulled up through the ranks and Jose Smith knew what he was you know I think Joseph Smith knew what he was doing when he pulled him up and so the fact is um what John C Bennett was doing what he's being charged with as far as spiritual wifery is not much different than what Joseph Smith is accused of doing here with Nancy rignton with other women um and and the thing that's really that blew me away when I was listening to Jonathan streeter's podcast is John C Bennett was accused of spiritual wifory but Joseph Smith's own brother William Smith Apostle William Smith was also doing the same things and telling these women that he learned these teachings directly from Joseph Smith and the only reason that people don't know about William Smith is because when they're doing this trial uh Brigham Young is conducting this this Tri this church trial and Joseph Smith stands up and says brother Brigham I will not listen to the abuse of my family a minute longer I will Wade In Blood up to my knees before I will do it and as soon as he does that uh Brigham Young drops the charges against William Smith and the church after that kind of never mentions the fact that Apostle William Smith was telling his women that Joseph Smith endorsed and gave them the teachings on spiritual wifery and so that is such an important detail to understand all of the stuff is swirling around at the same time and it just shows that Joseph Smith um is willing to protect his family here in an apostle of the church who is literally telling his women uh what Joseph Smith was teaching them and um so John C Bennett is the one that takes the fall within church history as far as what's taught but this is really the Apostle William Smith's uh trial as well and this is where um terms become really important and labels become really important and that mutually assured destruction we talked about earlier becomes really important because what Joseph is able to do is he's able to label the exact same behavior he was enacting as something different so that he can carry on in acting it but yeah publicly shame and and denigrate someone for doing something it's very similar to what he was doing yeah and that person can't turn around and kick back at Joseph because well it's called something different he's not going to do that necessarily because anything he accuses Joseph of he's doing the same yeah I mean it's it's you know we've talked about this in previous episodes and I I should have gotten the video there's the the meme from the office where it's like they show two things and Pam says it's the same picture it's Joseph Smith is basically like spiritual wifery is of the devil plural marriage it's righteous you know and it's just like I'm being facetious but it's all about this is like marketing 101 this is marketing 101 as you're labeling one thing bad and labeling the exact same thing with maybe some minor tweaks as being completely different it's not and especially because what they say about Joseph Smith and polygamy is what a lot of apologists say is a lot of these ceilings were only spiritual they weren't sexual wives they weren't physical wives yeah it was just spiritual yeah not spiritual wifery I'll just yeah I'll just if it's okay I'll just add my my meager knowledge of John C Bennett is that when Joseph Smith comes to Nauvoo he needs someone to go to the navu legislature and get the navu charter approved so that the city of Nauvoo can operate and that's when the relationship with John C Bennett is forged John C Bennett successfully gets the charter of Nauvoo approved by the Illinois State Legislature and as a reward for that as I understand it at least at one point John C Bennett was viewed as co-president of the church and or in the first presidency so what what people need to really understand is even though they've never heard of John C Bennett and there's reasons why they've never heard of him because he was so scandalous and he ends up betraying Joseph Smith and turning on him um is that he was as high as as Henry B eyring or Dallin H Oakes is right now in the church hierarchy at the time and so if then it's discovered that John C Bennett again along with with Joseph's own brother William are practicing quote unauthorized polygamy or spiritual wifery yet they're as close to Joseph as possible what that makes it look like is number one is that is that Joseph was privately sanctioning the same thing he was doing but that they got caught and so Joseph needed to kind of fix that Scandal and so like you said Mike he creates uh arbitrary distinction between what the unauthor unauthorized people are doing which is spiritual wifery bad but what Joseph is doing is um you know the new Everlasting government or Eternal Marriage and that's good but if it's the people closest to Joseph including co-presidents or first presidency members it's really um it's really it's really questionable the only other thing I'll say is my understanding is the other way that John C Bennett is often mentioned is and you'll probably cover this and if you don't uh it will cover it if you do we'll cover it really briefly is the John C Bennett is mentioned as one person who possibly conducted abortions in Nauvoo that's not something that historians even secular uh historians jump to and say yes for sure that happened but it's one of those perennial questions that all often comes up is wait a minute is it true that abortions were conducted in Nauvoo and that John C Bennett was the guy doing it so that's that's what I know about John C Bennett do you guys agree or disagree with that I I agree I think the distinction ultimately comes down to that the greatest of Monty Python quotes we're not the Judean People's Front with the people's front of Judea yeah they are the same thing they just have a slightly different name yep that's perfect and I would argue um I don't talk about John C Bennett with abortion I there's no evidence for it so it's it's speculative and there are always going to be when you're speculating there's always going to be ways to find those parallels that could be but for me there's nothing that's solid enough to go on so I don't cover that at all because I don't think there's I just don't think there's anything to go on and for me if there's not evidence um it's just not worth um yeah waiting into so I know I know the rumors are there I see it mentioned a lot I just for me I've never found anything that says oh yeah that's something you could could really pull as a source that gives you an indication I just don't see it so yeah um so yeah I don't cover that's why I mentioned it carefully not as something that did happen just something where there's always questions as to whether it happened okay let's go on to John C Bennett um and what leads to the happiness letter can you do me a favor John go two slides ahead oh okay I screwed up a bit so um go one more okay okay that's perfect all right this is gonna piggyback off our last slide and so these are two different women who are in this trial of the men who are teaching spiritual y free and this is what they testify of I just think this is really important and this is um Joseph Smith this is of Catherine Fuller talking about um Joseph Smith's brother William Apostle William Smith who is telling her she should not get married so that they continue they can continue having sexual relations and so she says William Smith has also been to my house on the 27th of last month being the day I was married and proposed unlocked awful connect connection I don't know how to say that but unlawful sexual relations uh but I refused and told him that it was contrary to the teaching of Joseph on the stand he answered that Joseph was obliged to teach to the contrary on the stand to keep down Prejudice and keep peace at home first William Smith insisted very much that I should not marry and propose to supply me with food and um I'm assuming food and other rations if I should remain unmarried and Grant his requests which were sexual and then we also have Sarah Miller who's going to testify that she was told that these teachings originated with Joseph Smith as well um some two or three weeks since in consequence of Brother Joseph Smith's teaching to the singers I began to be alarmed concerning myself and concerning teachings which I'd received from Chauncey Higby in question about his teaching for I was pretty well persuaded from Joseph's public teachings that Chauncey had been telling falsehood but Chauncey said that Joseph Smith now taught as he did through necessity on account of the prejudices of the people in his own family particularly as they had not become full Believers in the doctrine and I just want to point out this actually lines up really well with the fact that Joseph is doing all of this behind Emma's back and doing it in secret because of the fact that you know they don't you know Emma's not a big fan of Joseph having sex with other women I can't imagine why um and so these quotes are telling us that Joseph Smith is teaching these these other men about this idea of um you know concubines polygamous marriages however you want to phrase it and these men might be running a little bit ahead of things without Joseph's permission but the fact is these are not ideas that these men are just creating these are ideas that Joseph Smith is at least telling them in some form and it's his brother an apostle I mean to put it into um you know today's thing I mean imagine you know Apostle you know if going out and doing this I mean that's how high level this is and this is not coming from nothing this is coming from Joseph Smith and these women are testifying in a trial where they're you know the victims um they're explaining this in a way that actually lines up historically with how Joseph Smith is teaching this and I just think that's really important and um this is all swirling around as the happiness letter comes and um it's yeah this is hard for me it's just this stuff makes me mad but it is it's the same thing it's just yeah yeah so basically Joseph I mean and this all makes sense for what we know about everything that you know Joseph is 22 wives in before he ever really tells Emma that the Revelation the DNC 132 comes like three to 13 years into the practice of polygamy depending on when you start the clock is it the Poetry says he remarried one time I found out yeah yeah and then yep that Joseph remarries people in front of Emma because he married him before but he thought she'd get too mad so he remarries the sisters and also and also that Joseph lied to the pub you know to the church membership and even to many of his closest followers for many many years it's just so like the idea that that it would be a mess and that William and John C Bennett and there would be confusion about what spiritual wifey and what's not that all seems to track with the narrative I would have expected it to be no other way yeah totally confusing and yeah and yeah yeah absolutely and it's just yeah yeah okay is this the next slide that John C Bennett back to John C Bennett now yeah that's perfect yeah sorry I I had an excellent so um this is from um John Bennett's account of what is going to happen that is going to lead to the letter being written and so this is about Nancy meeting with Joseph Smith and so he says Nancy went down uh Joe was there and took her into a private room locked the door and commenced by telling her that he had long loved her and had asked the Lord for her and that it was his holy will that he should have her he told her that it would not prevent her from marrying any other person that he had the blessings of Jacob granted to him and that all was right he desired to kiss her and wished her to kiss him but Joe couldn't come in she said she would alarm the neighbors if he did not open the door and let her out he did so and requested Mrs Hyde to explain matters to her Joe swore her to a Eternal secrecy Mrs Hyde told her that these things look strange to her at first but she would become more reconciled a mature reflection Miss Rigdon replied I never shall Joe agreed to write her and did so in a few days through Dr Richards that letter is now safe in the hands of her friends I have seen it so was her father and various other persons on Tuesday last Joe came up to Mr rigdon's accompanied by his high priest George Miller of sable sister notoriety for a witness and by boisterous words and violent gestures tried to deny the attempted seduction and alarmed the girl but she told him he was a cursive liar and that he could not and that he could not face her to it Joe then made a full acknowledgment of the whole Affair all the family and many other persons were present the holy George observed you must not hard on the lines that the Lord's anointed the Lord will not suffer his anointed to fall and um we'll just point out that John C Bennett is obviously at this point not a fan of Joseph Smith so I'm sure there are exaggerations here as you might expect but the fact is a lot of this does line up with what is happening with the letter being written um it also lines up with the Martha Brotherton where they put her in a room lock the door and tried uh to get uh bring him to kiss her uh because he wanted her for a polygamous bride and she refused um there are a lot of things here that have connections to other things that are going on so it's not to say that everything in this letter is probably perfect it's just to say it confirms the account it kind of mirrors some of the other proposals that we have some of the ways that Joseph used those other polygamist Brides to recruit the other ones and when they didn't want to do it he used those other wives to kind of convince them to do it it's just got a lot of connections a lot of threads and so to say what we can what we can safely pull from it is that Joseph did in fact meet with her in a secret form of meeting um yeah and that it was to do with her becoming a polygamous bride to Joseph Smith I think the details of how he made that approach like he said could very well be um altered or exaggerated but yes yeah definitely approach itself for me just reading this uh this comes across as as very disturbing because we I think in today's sensibilities but I think in 18 1840 sensibilities too it's it portrays Joe as kind of well he's married he's coming on to a young woman uh you know she's she's declining his advances but he's almost like pushing himself on her she's not liking it but then he's running as we mentioned earlier to to Mrs Hyde and he's getting her to say you know Nancy don't freak out Nancy Rigdon don't freak out this is okay you'll understand it he'll send you a letter this is this is kind of Highly Disturbing Behavior and I'll just say that it's so common for like Brian Hales and others to just start by saying John C Ben is not credible uh as you kind of alluded to Mike because he later apostatizes from the church but but but this is this is the Mind shift that I think is really important that I had to make in reality when somebody apostatizes from early Mormonism in my mind that often makes them more credible not less so the examples would be um you know David Whitmer kind of falling away from Mormonism well he was one of the first witness he was one of the three Witnesses of the Book of Mormon and he was the one that remembers no ironic or Melchizedek priesthood that makes him credible not less credible when the documentation supports his memory another example is William law he was in the first presidency and he's the one who published the novel Expositor which told the truth about polygamy and so even though he now is viewed as anti-mormon he's the one that told the truth and that means that he deserves to be respected more than the people who are complicit in the cover-ups and so even though John C Bennett may have been a scalawag in many ways I I have a bias of trusting apostates more not less and I know that's probably going to be a controversial opinion Nemo what do you think about that I think um and I'm not asking you to agree with me no I I think we personally I think you have to weigh up the merits of all the sources based on the context in which they're written and and other corroborating sources that may or may not kind of support them or disprove them I think what you're or what I'm hearing from what you're saying is certainly what I would agree with from what you're saying is that there is a certain level of moral fortitude particularly in an environment where someone like Joseph Smith is very powerful in a very unstable environment such as Frontier America to stand up to someone like that who is powerful over a community and say no and to tell the truth and so because of that I would be very inclined to give weight to what they say um because that takes there's a lot of personal risk in in doing that so they wouldn't do it lightly I think that's what that's certainly how I would look at it yeah yeah I mean like I said I you you wouldn't want to read something that John C Bennett wrote and go oh man I agree because I agree that Joseph Smith was doing bad things I agree with what he's saying but I do think what Nemo said is you take the statement and you say does it track with other things we do know if it does then you take those points and you say okay at least we can corroborate this and then maybe there are going to be some of the specific details that you can't know one way or the other and you don't have to focus on those because you don't need um you don't need to like have every one of those details line up you just need to be able to kind of use what you can to find the points that are backed up by other sources and then from there you can try to piece it back together and um no go ahead I was gonna say I think what said to me a lot is context matters context absolutely matters yeah every single little detail doesn't always yeah and I think people confuse context with a complete understanding of every minute detail yeah but actually context is broader than that context by definition is Broad and so if you're looking at something like this understanding that Joseph was making a a assertion that he would like her to be a polygamous wife is the context of the happiness letter the context isn't exactly how he did that because those details are what apologists can pull you into and exactly over to to then take you away from the main issue yeah I mean I would argue and we don't need to go into a tangent here but if you read the CES letter the first chapter has like the maps in there and it's got some of the plagiarism stuff and I would argue those parts are Parts I don't really agree with uh because I think that the way the sources are set up aren't really good and so if you listen to um for example Jim Bennett when he did his interview about his response to CSR Bill real and I think what Johnny mentions is too he will constantly go back to that first part to use that to say if he is going to get these parts wrong you can't trust them elsewhere but the problem is the rest of the Cs letter when you talk about the priesthood restoration the first Vision those things are very solid and so as you're saying Nemo apologists want to pull those little details that you get wrong to say everything's wrong but that's not how it works and so that's why for me I try not to focus as much on those tiny details because it's not that they're not important they're of course important but because we can't know them for sure it's not worth fighting in the fighting in the mud over those little details when you can look at all of these massive problems that are sitting there that we can show with evidence that we can show with accounts and so that's I guess why I don't necessarily worry about those as much it's not because they don't matter because of course they matter but it's because we can't know and we have enough that we do know to make a lot of educated guesses as to what happened overall without worrying about those uh little details yeah okay so the next slide is back to this idea of of rumors of spiritual wife or you're already so we can actually skip this one this was the one I added in an accident okay so this is one we talked about in our first episode on polygamy which is Joseph Smith is teaching at this time that if there's no accuser then there's no sin and this plays hugely into this so I'll read this again this is from November 7th 1841 which as you'll know is right before um everything happens with Nancy Miranda Hyde moving into the printing office and and obviously about what six months before five months before the proposal to Nancy Rigdon and Joseph says in a public sermon well he writes in his journal that he told the the the church this he says I charge the Saints not to follow the example of the adversary in accusing the Brethren and said if you do not accuse each other God will not accuse you if you have no accuser you will enter Heaven and if you follow the revelations and instructions which God gives you through me I will take you into heaven as my backload if you will not accuse me I will not accuse you if you will throw a clo cloak of Charity over my sin and I will over yours for charity covereth a multitude of sins what many people call sin is not sin I do many things to break down Superstition and I will break it down and so this shows you a couple things one it shows you that with John C Bennett and his brother William Smith were doing their error wasn't the fact that they were doing it their error was the fact that they got caught and accused publicly because once it got public then all of a sudden Joseph Smith's teaching goes out the window um and and this this teaching factor is not just into the happiness letter but into all of Joseph Smith's polygamous proposals because he's outright saying what you think is sin is not sin and if you don't accuse me of doing anything wrong I want to accuse you and we talk about mutually assured destruction this is another way of doing it which is to say if you don't accuse me I said I'm not going to accuse you but the uh flip side of that is if you do accuse me of it I'm coming after you as well and we see that with this we see that with other instances not just with polygamy but as we mentioned earlier with all the you know Oliver cowdery and Martin Harris and they all those people that got run out of the church Joseph Smith Never really speaks well of them again and I think this is a very important teaching for this letter because it really factors into Joseph Smith's thought process which is that you can get away with you can do whatever you want as long as the other person doesn't you know accuse you of sin and so the whole idea of sin just gets thrown out the window now and sin just becomes basically anything that is spoken of publicly that would go against you know the common morality this is such a weird teaching to me because if you think about like think of all the things that Joseph has said that we quote just mindlessly now in the modern church and take it as gospel what if what if this quote got out and and modern teenagers in the Mormon Church yeah were to just say well Joseph said that if there's no accuser there's no sin then there would never be a conversation about masturbation about petting about breaking the BYU Honor Code yep you could even murder someone and if there's no witness to the murderer there's no sin like this this seems to be a very dangerous teaching that's very incompatible with modern Mormonism that comes directly from the mouth of the Prophet yeah I mean imagine oh yeah go ahead these sorts of logic and loopholes of what these two things like soaking at BYU I mean it's already to be crass but you take this idea that well if I don't do something that would technically make it a sin then it's not a sin if no one sees it it's not a sin if no one accuses me of it it's not a sin it's the exact kind of moral relativism that is taught against by modern church leaders the idea that well as long as you don't fulfill certain criterias then you're fine it's like no it's more more about the spirit of what's going on really well yeah it's just I mean just picture a a guy and a girl at BYU and we'll just call him Joseph and Emma just for sake of argument and they're called in The Bishop's office they're like hey you know we've heard reports that you guys are having sex and they look at each other like we're not accusing each other of that and then the bishop would be like that's not good enough and you pull out this quote I mean and I think that that's where the whole idea of you know cafeteria Mormonism people always go oh you're a cafeteria Mormon if you don't wear your garments 24 7 or your cafeteria Mormon if you drink coffee or you drink tea or you swear the Mormon church is cafeteria Mormonism because they absolutely leave out in in 2022 a lot of teachings of Joseph Smith and a lot of teachings of the of the scriptures like you know we talked about with the race and the race and the priesthood episodes those things are still scriptural and yet today they don't they don't ban members with dark skin from the priesthood and this just shows you that Joseph's mistechings are uh very much uh cherry-picked as to what we follow and what we don't and I would love to see this quote talked about in general conference I would love to see Russell Nelson get up there in October and say hey uh you know what there's no sin if there's no accuser they're not going to do that because they want people accused they want to have that control over members and I'm sorry if I feel like I'm getting upset here stress me nuts Nemo but the thing is they could turn that around and actually say well don't accuse us come that Joseph Smith did they don't want to be accused themselves you know there is a problem of um dishonesty amongst modern church leaders I've talked about this a lot there is that issue um but you know they'll say well if no one's accusing us then if no one's pointing it out then is it a problem yep yeah absolutely yeah the other the other thing I'll say is this kind of leaves the door open for modern Mormon fundamentalism kind of like the Denver Snuffer stuff or the Chad and Lori dabel stuff because you you know once you start to really get into Mormonism and really get into Joseph Smith as an adult you can find these types of quotes that can justify almost any any horrible horrible I think it's because Joseph Smith is a great example of expedient justification yeah he's a great example of that and so if you look back at enough of his stuff yeah you'll find an excuse to do something yeah and we'll see a lot of that in this in these letters I mean just the fact they're saying if you will not accuse me I will not accuse you and he's telling a church basically telling a church as he's ramping up polygamy don't you dare accuse me because if you do I'm coming after you but if you don't we're cool and I think that yeah I think this is a quote that that it seeks to to benefit Joseph more than it does to tell the average everyday church member not to read on their their neighbor I think this is just about basically he knows he's doing stuff that is causing rumors and he's telling them if you accuse me I'm going to come after you but if you don't accuse me I'll I'll make sure you're taken care of and I think that that's a pattern uh we see what Joseph Smith which is he takes care of people that take care of him and the second you don't you're out so okay that's just my thought okay so Nancy was told okay so Joseph delivers a letter to Nancy yep now we have we told that story yet of Joseph giving a letter to Nancy well I think the letter is given uh by one of the head Apostles I can't remember who it was actually but it would be like almost be like the equivalent of Russell Nelson sending down Oaks with a letter to somebody he doesn't Joseph Smith does not take it himself so let me let me just in that slide from um from uh John C Bennett he said Doctor somebody oh yeah Dr Richard basically so so just to kind of Advance the the timeline Nancy Rigdon refuses Joseph's advancements yeah but then through Mrs Hyde and through Dr Richards Joseph writes Nancy rigged in a letter basically saying hey give me a chance to explain this is complicated God's involved there's new doctrine I want to reveal to you and Nancy don't don't don't decline yet right yeah because yeah because Nancy Hyde um basically said come on no you'll understand it through more mature it was basically a actually you need you're kind of being a little belittling by the sounds of it she's saying no you need you need to have a more mature attitude towards this then she goes I never shall and that's when he agrees to write to her and then okay Dr Richardson yeah okay so now we're just we haven't read the letter yet but we're jumping to it being burned is that right no no I'm just saying that when they deliver the letter um according to John C Bennett um Nancy is told to burn the letter after she reads it and I just wanted to point out that this is a pattern Joseph Smith used with polygamy so with Emily Partridge she says Joseph said that he intended to tell me something but he had no opportunity to do so and so he would write me a letter if I would agree to burn it as soon as I read it and with that I looked frightened for I thought there was something about it that was not just right so I told him that I would rather he would not write to me that he would not write me any letter and then he asked me if I wanted him to not say any more and I said yes I did not want to hear anything more about it at all for I got a little frightened about it which is to say that Emily Partridge knew when someone says I want to give you a letter but you need to burn it after that things are not right it just tells you in your internal conscience like one which is something I think you see a lot with these polygamous proposals and then um there's a fairly Infamous letter he writes to Sarah Whitney and her family which is talked about a lot and in that letter Joseph Smith is writing to Sarah Whitney who is one of his polygamous brides and her parents to come and comfort him and a lot of people think that means sex that's not really too important here it's just to say that the letter says I will tell you all of my plans I cannot write them on paper burn this letter as soon as you read it keep all locked up in your breasts my life depends on it it's just to say Joseph Smith tells a lot of women when he writes some letters to burn it and the fact that the happiness letter survives is kind of a miracle because I can only imagine what letters actually were burned because if you believe Joseph is a prophet and he asks you to burn a letter you're likely going to burn that letter and so it's just to point out that this was another one of those patterns where we look at John C Bennett saying that and go you know John C Ben is just making it up but we do have other instances that we can show Joseph Smith was asking them to burn letters which tells you there's at least something to the fact that he probably did tell her burn this because I don't want this getting out um and that is just fundamentally sketchy Behavior where Joseph is giving these personal Revelations to people about sex basically but then telling them to burn it and destroy the evidence so that it never is found yeah yeah which explains why why his letter to Nancy Hyde or whoever isn't isn't canonized because a lot of these Revelations were intended to be burned not canonized the opposite of canonized right yeah and like I said I don't know if the Revelation itself was was implying polygamy because of course it's very carefully worded it's a blanket statement let's just say you know to abide in Joseph Smith and all things he teaches her so I mean obviously you could you know from an apologetic standpoint you'd be like oh you didn't mean he didn't mean polygamy it just meant you know spiritual matters but of course we know what happens so we know that there was at least some thought in Joseph Smith at that point that she was being picked for you know a possible polyandrous marriage because of the fact that he was already doing polygamy at that point and wrote that into the Revelation but yeah it's it's a problem yeah okay all right so now we get to now we're finally getting close so this is just a quote Nemo had put this together in his video about this and it's just a really quick clip just showing a bunch of church leaders citing this letter and so when people say that the letter wasn't written by Joseph Smith or that you know we're taking you know that no one really you know uses that quote it's just a good clip to kind of get into the letter to show that this has been cited multiple times in general conference by high you know profit seers and revelators and I think it's just important just to look at it real quick before we get going so the point here is how often the church cites this letter that we're about to dig into to establish its its credibility its reality right yeah exactly here we go there's Howard W Hunter I'm recommend I recognize him okay one seconds uh so just while you're sorting that out John I just want to say um to me the most the reason I put this at the beginning of my video um the most important bit about this was that well anymore if you are going to make the apologetic argument that Joseph Smith didn't write this letter and it's an argument that's made about so many things while his scribe wrote it and his scribe could have been wrong Joseph didn't write this himself there's so much apologetics around what Joseph did or didn't write himself if you're going to make that argument then you need to explain why all of these prophet seers and revelators believed that Joseph Smith was the author of this because he is the one they attribute it to that's all I've got to say yeah absolutely makes sense okay and uh I am just totally not sure why why uh why we're not hearing this so if you guys can talk for just one more second yeah I know it's just fine yeah I think like like Nemo said the fact is you know if you want to play this kind of apologetic game that Joseph didn't write it even though every single leader um believed it was Joseph Smith's own words and it just would I mentioned this in previous episodes at some point you start to run this problem like why didn't God tell these leaders like dude Joseph didn't write this this was you know I'm getting caught it's the same thing uh we've talked about other areas with power of discernment and all that were the leaders just don't seem to know what's from God and what's from themselves and in this case uh they're they're they're they're taking this letter and some leaders might not know the context I would imagine a lot of them don't but the fact is they're they're repeating this letter as if it's from Joseph it's written into the church's history as from Joseph Smith um there's absolutely no reason to think it's not from Joseph A lot of these teachings are going to be in other um sermons he's given other journal entries so it's not like this stuff's being pulled out of thin air and um as uh Jonathan Streeter mentioned in his podcast if John C Bennett was was completely making this up to make Joseph look bad he would have done a lot of different things here um but instead this is written um in a very um in a way that is very subtle unless you know the context and I think that if John C Bennett was trying to expose Joseph he would not have been this light-handed with it you've got a cutesy fragment fridge magnet slogan and a lot of them will be picking up on it from that they'll say happiness is the object and design of our existence that's their oh fridge packet slogan that's lovely yeah a little wooden plaque in someone's home and they don't necessarily need to know the context to want to share that yeah but they have to own the context of it once it is pointed out to them yep they do and I've I've had a few people um where I've talked to him over the you know last few years since I started doing the website and I'll say hey do you know the the phrase happiness is the object and design of our existence like oh yeah yeah and I'll say do you know what the Letter's from and they'll be like no uh it's from you know Joseph Smith and I'll go yeah we read it and they'll go yeah okay and then I give it to them usually they won't read it because once you get into the context of it most a lot of believing members until you're ready for it that is something that's going to just completely shut you down because it's it's it's horrific and we're going to get into it um but to what Nemo's point is when the church cites that first line over and over again and then all of a sudden you get to a point where you can no longer um even acknowledge the context of it I think that is a pretty good indicator that this is this is not good and it's pervasive and you know it's it's it's widely accepted as a piece of Joseph Smith's works and words you know yeah um and maybe maybe what we should do is we should write them a letter and say look this quote keeps getting used could you please not unless you're willing to talk about both the context of of this quote Yeah I just uh um it's it's you know I know we're riffing here but it's a command um intended to correspond to an active behavior that they don't want to be enacting yeah and and they certainly don't want anyone talking about it in its correct context today for sure okay I think I got it back let's all right let's try this again thanks brethren happiness my brothers and sisters is the object and the design of our existence the Prophet Joseph Smith said happiness is the object and design of our existence the Prophet Joseph Smith taught us happiness is the object and design of our existence the Prophet Joseph Smith said happiness is the object and design of our existence the Prophet Joseph Smith taught happiness is the objectives that was brilliant brilliant work email brilliant that I had I'd already I purposely included the fact that they start with the Prophet Joseph Smith taught because it just makes it so unequivocal that they absolutely believe those are his words yeah there's no way around it and I I the the end of that clip that you did Nemo is is both creepy and and also very well done just to show that it's just recited without a second thought as to where it came from or at least it's recited without a a worry that the members are going to look this up because uh I will say uh for the website the most red web page the most red page on the entire website is happiness letter comes up it gets the most Google hits it gets because most people don't talk about it and so um after I saw the listen to the Jonathan um Streeter podcast I had done a a web page on it because no one else really had done it and I remember asking you know Jonathan if he was okay with it and he I think at the time was just like yeah you know we had I think he said he meant to do it he never did um it's certainly getting more more coverage than it used to and and it just shows sometimes that when the church cites these things like you said putting it right directly in Joseph's mouth it becomes that much harder to then disassociate him from him later so yeah and and I just want to say that if you do check out my video where that compilation is found you will find in the description all of the citations every single time one of those people said it so you can try and come after me and say well those people didn't say that but they did yeah I mean yeah yep it's pretty irrefutable so this is this happiness letter is legit all right so what's the next uh okay so this is um Jonathan Streeter on his um thoughts and things and stuff channel did this uh video it's like four minutes this is a straight rating of the happiness letter without any stopping any context or anything and so I thought it would be good for the listeners to hear this letter read in entirety it's like four minutes so that as we go to then dissect it afterwards at least you've heard it all at once and I think it's important because when you listen to it without us going through the sections it will read a lot differently than it will after we do it and I think that is the intention of Joseph Smith in writing it and so this way it'll give you like a four minute reading of the letter and then we're going to go into it and look at it kind of paragraph by paragraph all right here is a full reading of the happiness letter by Jonathan Streeter on thoughts and things and stuff [Music] happiness is the object and design of our existence and will be the end thereof if we pursue the path that leads to it and this path is virtue uprightness faithfulness Holiness and keeping all the Commandments of God but we cannot keep all the Commandments without first knowing them and we cannot expect to know all or more than we now know unless we comply with or keep those we have already received that which is wrong under one circumstance may be and often is right under another God said Thou shalt not kill at another time he said Thou shalt utterly destroy this is the principle on which the government of Heaven is conducted by Revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed whatever God requires is right no matter what it is although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire if we seek first the kingdom of God all good things will be added so with Solomon first he asked wisdom and God gave it him and with it every desire of his heart even things which might be considered abominable to all who understand the order of Heaven only in part but which in reality were right because God gave and sanctioned by special revelation a parent May whip a child and justly too because he stole an apple whereas if the child had asked for the apple and the parent had given it the child would have eaten it with a better appetite and there would have been no Stripes all the pleasures of the Apple would have been secured and the misery of stealing lost this principle will justly apply to all of God's dealings with his children everything that God gives us is lawful and right and it is proper that we should enjoy his gifts and blessings whenever and wherever he is disposed to bestow but if we should seize upon those same blessings and enjoyments without Law Without Revelation without commandment those blessings and enjoyments would prove cursings and vexations in the end and we should have to lie down in sorrow and wailings and everlasting regret but in obedience there is joy and peace unspotted unalloyed and as God has designed our happiness the happiness of all his creatures he never has he never will institute an ordinance or give a commandment to his people that is not calculated in its nature to promote that happiness which he has designed and which will not end in the greatest amount of good and glory to those who become the recipients of his law and ordinances blessings offered but rejected are no longer blessings but become like the talent hid in the Earth by the wicked and slothful servant the prophet good returns to the giver the blessing is bestowed on those who will receive and occupy For unto him that hath shall be given and he shall have abundantly but unto him that hath not or will not receive shall be taken away that which he hath or might have had be wise today tis Madness to defer next day the Fatal precedent May plead thus until wisdom is pushed out of time into eternity our heavenly father is more liberal in his views and boundless in his mercies and blessings that we are ready to believe or receive and at the same time is more terrible to the workers of iniquity more awful in the executions of his punishments and more ready to detect every false way than we are apt to suppose him to be he will be inquired of by his children he says ask and you shall receive seek and you shall find but if he will take that which is not your own or which I have not given you you shall be rewarded according to your Deeds but no good thing will I withhold from them who walk uprightly before me and do my will in all things who will listen to my voice and to the voice of my servant whom I have sent for I Delight in those who seek diligently to know my precepts and abide by the laws of my kingdom for all things shall be made known unto them in mine own due time and in the end they shall have joy okay well I I kind of want to jump in and start with the analysis but I know that's what the next several slides are going to be about so I just want to say something before we jump in um to anyone who says that no one's trying to argue that Joseph Smith didn't write this letter I would point you to an article called or a a published article called Happiness Joseph Smith's alleged authorship of the 1842 letter to Nancy Rigdon by Garrett dirkmat who is a professor at BYU and he tries to basically blame John Bennett for writing the letter and says that Joseph Smith didn't write it so it is out there yeah yeah we'll get to that in a second but thanks for that preview Nemo all right Mike so you want to break down the happiness letter yes and we're just going to do this like paragraph by paragraph we'll just give our thoughts and then you know kind of go through it but yeah so the first part the start of the the letter says happiness is the object and design of our existence it will be the end thereof if we pursue pursue the path that leads to it and this path is virtue uprightness faithfulness Holiness and keeping all the Commandments of God and as we've talked about this is the part you're going to hear uh church leaders reference they're going to reference this one chunk because by itself it sounds really good it sounds uplifting it sounds kind of like nothing new you know um they will always tell you that you know list obeying the Commandments is going to lead you to happiness and so what is really telling to me in this letter is that Joseph Smith is starting off by not addressing polygamy directly which is what you know you would think Joseph would do when he's writing a letter to Nancy to try to convince her to enter into this relationship with them but instead Joseph is going to focus on this idea of polygamy and I think um one of the things that you see that's pretty common with with like high demand fundamentalists religious leaders is that they're going to kind of frame um you know virtue uprightness faithfulness Holiness on the equal footing with keeping the Commandments of God because they are the people that are giving you the Commandments of God and so if you show this to any Christian in general they'll likely look at the statement go yeah this makes sense but if you then were to tell them that keeping all the Commandments of God means the commands of God through Joseph Smith that's where you start to see the problems and and that's where you start to see the cell the subtlety of this letter shine through just in this first paragraph which is that Joseph Smith is setting up the Commandments of God um equating to happiness and of course the Commandments of God are going to be the ones that come through Joseph anything you want to respond to that in email no it's just you know Joseph Smith yep puts his desires essentially as the ultimate good in this situation and getting what he wants is conflated with the ultimate good and with the proper outcome that God is also pushing for yes yeah it's basically let me tell you how you can achieve happiness and it's all going to be virtuous and moral and I'm thinking it's going to be because I say so right yeah yeah we're talking about morality virtue but as defined by Joseph Smith which by today's Mormon standards is probably going to be not viewed as virtuous immoral but we'll get to that yeah absolutely not and so yeah right after this Joseph Smith is going to turn morality upside down on Nancy Rigdon here and so you get that beginning which is just this very very nice flowery kind of language and then it says but we cannot keep all the Commandments without first knowing them and we cannot expect to know all or more than we now know unless we comply with or keep those we had already received that which is wrong under one circumstance maybe and often is right under another God said thou shall not kill at another time he said thou shall utterly destroy this is the principle on which the government of Heaven is conducted by Revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the Kingdom were placed whatever God requires is right no matter what it is although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire and so Joseph is immediately turning that kind of happy intro into a message to Nancy was just saying that she cannot keep all of her Commandments unless she listens to to God God's Commandments which come through Joseph Smith and so he's telling her right now that what you think is wrong which is his polygamous proposal what you recoil at you think it's wrong but it's actually right and this is where I was mentioning that 1841 teaching because he says in there um what you what some think of sin is not sin and here he's doing the same thing he's basically saying you might think it's a sin but if it's coming through God via Joseph Smith it's not sin and this is setting up the rest of the letter and basically turning Nancy's uh moral compass upside down on her right off the bat and what's really important here is that this starts but we cannot keep all the Commandments of God and what that's connected to is the earlier sentence that said happiness is the object and sign of our existence and will be the end thereof if we pursue the path that leads to it and the path is virtue uprightness and keeping all the Commandments of God so keeping all the Commandments of God is being seen as a caveat to make sure that you are happy and you receive your Eternal happiness and now Joseph's saying that's under threat you can't keep all the Commandments if you're not doing XYZ so yeah putting her happiness on the line yeah yeah that's just it and he's saying you can't you know know the commands are following it I'm trying to give you one which is that you're supposed to marry me it's just it's yeah we're seeing it right off the bat the other thing I'm going to just say is I attended this is going to be a little bit of just kind of history on my part I attended Brigham Young University in the late 80s early 90s during a time where there was a cultural War in the United States around this idea of moral relativism that you know the idea was was that there's different cultures and there's not one true standard of morality for the world for The Human Experience but instead and this is kind of an obvious point to anyone who thinks about it what may be moral or upright in one in one culture may be offensive or or immoral in another and and the conclusion the Practical conclusion from that within Academia and even a broader cultural War would be you can't really be too super judgmental of cultures that have different moral standards than you because you're judging them by your moral framework and not theirs and when I was at BYU there was this really hard Push by people like Ralph Hancock and Frank Fox and others to say no moral relativism is an evil idea there's truth and there's a there's one truth and it's God's truth and we need to figure out what that is but this idea of moral relativism is is literally one of the most evil modern inventions and so it's shocking for me to hear this quote on the one hand it makes total sense because if you read the Bible I I figured this out in high school on the one hand God's saying don't kill on the other hand he's saying to Nephi to kill Laban on on the one hand you know God's saying don't don't lie and then he's telling Nephi to put on laban's clothes and pretend like he's Laban which is in effect is lying like you if you read the scriptures you can see that in effect morality is whatever God says but when it comes to actually ruling the church I don't think the church wants to really emphasize this moral relativism piece because what it would lead to would be members doing whatever if they wanted just claiming that the holy ghost or God said it was okay and so the church has tried to be walking this dance of no moral relativism but then it's got it's got this type of argument from Joseph Smith which opens up a real can of worms right and so this doesn't feel more relation go ahead Nemo let's say moral relativism it doesn't exist in the church but moral expedience absolutely does yeah then it I mean detailed Christopherson is still on this moral relativism bent now like several of these past conference talks in recent years have been about moral relativism and talking down about it I believe he once famously said um just because you don't believe in the law of gravity doesn't mean you won't fall when you step off a cliff and it's the same with God's laws just because you don't believe them in them doesn't mean they don't Factor onto you so moral relativism doesn't work because God's laws are unchanging and eternal but then you've got Joseph Smith saying well yeah God's Law's shift yeah and they shift quickly under Joseph so I mean yeah that's just it and it is just occurring to me like this type of logic could be used today to say hey same-sex marriage is okay being LGBT is okay because in this context it's fine so like down age Oaks and Russell and Nelson would have an opportunity to embrace the lgbtq community and just say hey in past context it was wrong but now it's fine they've had to do with black members of the church and the priesthood that's the exact dance they've had to say well it wasn't right then but it's right now because God said so and so you could make you could use it to do that but it's not expedient at the moment for them to do that for whatever reason and so they don't it was expedient to give black members the church the priesthood because there was you know all sorts of social implications at the time all sorts of problems the church was facing because of it that they felt were insurmountable and so pressed God on the issue if you take the faithful perspective yeah yeah so this could actually be a really good thing for the church that they used it in the right way instead of just yeah trying to help people say and so gratify himself I wanted to play this clip this is from a fairly recent podcast called I think follow him and you guys did a couple episodes with um Sandra Tanner about this and this is with Kate Holbrook who is a church historian um they're talking about DNC 132 and um Gerardo had sent this to me uh before you guys did the episodes and I was listening to it and this part shocked me because um Hank Smith is actually going to invoke the happiness letter um basically kind of conflating it with the teachings of DNC 132 and I really feel like this little video video clip is important because it shows how even today the church is going to use this teaching to basically say that yeah morality is whatever the church needs it to be and and I think this is a really dangerous line of thought so this is just a quick clip I thought would be important to play yeah and I'm just going to say at the outset that Kate Holbrook passed away just within the past month of cancer she is a much beloved historian and so we don't we we send out condolences and honor to her family and we don't play this to dishonor her or shame her especially in the light of her recent passing but she was viewed as a major polygamy apologist for many years and and so I think it's fair game to kind of to play this at the same time yeah and I I had absolutely no idea that um Kate had passed away and so obviously like when he was just a couple weeks ago yeah I had no idea so a couple weeks ago yeah and this clip really is more about Hank Smith talking and just obviously to pass along condolences because I I really did not know so yeah yeah okay let's play the clip where Joseph Smith says this I uh he says that which is wrong under one circumstance maybe and often is right under another God said Thou shalt not kill at another time he is said thou shall utterly destroy this is the principle on which the government of Heaven is conducted Revelation adapted to circumstance Revelation adapted to circumstance whatever God requires is right no matter what it is although we may not see the reason till long after the events transpire I bring this up with Nephi killing Laban in the Book of Mormon uh that we've grown up with it and so we're pretty used to it but someone who is a first-time reader of the Book of Mormon might be horrified by the idea of Nephi killing Laban right um uh and so I I don't think anyone needs to come into plural marriage feeling good about it like oh this is this is a good thing this is I feel so warm and fuzzy inside right I don't think that's the Lord's expectation he's just saying this is revelation adapted to circumstance this is my law this is how we're going to do this uh so I I don't know I I like the comparison with Nephi killing Laban that it's it's an exception not the rule but I you have to trust Nephi and trust the Lord that this is really from him I think that's another really powerful explanation for why we have this verse 36 that otherwise doesn't seem to to fit and it's because that is the rule is do not sleep with any anyone other than your wife the person you're married to um but then here's the situation just like Abraham's situation just like Nephi's situation where you do something different I think that's exactly why it's in there all right Nemo what's your reaction well he says that's exactly what's in there well why what's in there because where what was it just justification isn't can you hear me yeah go ahead anyway yeah so so what what was read as a justification isn't readily available to members of the church and it's certainly not included in DNC 132 as they're discussing it so um they're using something that Joseph Smith fully intended to be burned and destroyed uh as evidence to justify a public teaching which is very strange because the justification for that should surely also have been included along with DNC 132 absolutely yeah yeah I just I like the fact that Hank Smith invoked it because it shows again that this is a letter that is by Joseph Smith this is not something even in 2022 that that they're trying to basically say wasn't written by him I think he should because Hank Smith is not going to give the context of it in this episode you can listen to it he does not um but it also shows and this is the problem uh for me is Hank Smith is basically saying yeah these are really horrible ideas but we're going to do them if we believe God tells us to and in this case it's not God telling him to it's Joseph Smith through God and so this is why we've talked about this in other episodes the fact that in the Mormon Church personal revelation goes out the window if it contradicts another leader so if Joseph Smith or I guess today in today's term Russell Nelson comes to me and says God tells me you need to do this and then I pray about it I'm like yeah God's telling me no Russell Nelson's gonna say no I have more Authority than you do so my Revelation is stronger than yours it's like um yeah it this is telling people people even if you think something is wrong you're going to do it because the church is telling it to and that is the same thing we have today with when the church did The Prop 8 stuff and they have people going out and fundraising and campaigning against LGBT um stuff and it's when you you know all of the stuff a word of wisdom you know people like coffee's healthy but I'm not going to do it because I'm you know and that's obviously nothing compared to polygamy it's just it allows people to justify bad things um allows good people to justify bad things and Hank Smith here is literally making that case and I just find that to be a really dangerous teaching yeah I mean in 2022 the the series under the banner of Heaven just came out and it's a you know or or the whole chat deba and Lori valo outbreak where Chad in real life Chad kills his own wife and Lori valo kills at least one husband if not more plus several of of of Chad's children through through accomplices um it just once you start going down this road of uh murder can be justified it can lead to some really dark things you know yeah and I think an observation to make about Joseph Smith just really quickly is that um people like to often talk about him as being this person who just went around and took in everything he could find and it was a very Dynamic and thriving and evolving religion and that's fine and actually you're going to see a lot of that in what Joseph did here a lot of this experience he's justifying things as he's going because you know he's driven to actions for whatever motivations that we can't necessarily ascribe to him yeah but then you contrast that with the very pharisaical rules heavy church that we live in now and no wonder members are going to come up against this dichotomy of well here's a very liberal view of the church here's a here's someone who is able to run around get in Revelation for this and that and constantly dynamically changing and now we live in a church where obedience to one person is very important and that person is the prophet of the church yep yeah yeah there's a big dichotomy there okay so Jonathan Streeter more wisdom from Jonathan yeah I think I read this in the first polygamy episode we did but this is the exact same tactic that other religious leaders have used to coerce women to have relations with them and so this is from Jonathan streeter's presentation at Sunstone he says keep in mind that special Divine permission is nothing new self-proclaimed Prophet Deva quresh and the Branch Davidians claim special Divine permission to take child Brides for the purpose of producing the 24 Elders foretold in the Book of Revelations self-proclaimed Prophet Wayne bent of the Lord our Righteousness Church claims special Divine permission for having sexual relations with children even his own daughter-in-law in order to avoid God punishment self-proclaimed Prophet Julia Shack now of the sect known as the work claimed special privilege to promise salvation in exchange for sexual intercourse with women and children including his own stepdaughter self-proclaimed Prophet Tony Alamo of Alamo Christian Ministries claimed special biblical permission to illegally marry multiple women and children self-proclaimed Prophet David Berg of the children of God claimed special Divine permission to normalize sexual relations with children prophets justifying their own predations a special Divine permission through the use of Pious language and religious sentiment is nothing new and this is the same thing we have here where all of these leaders are doing the exact same thing Joseph is doing which is to flip morality on its head by saying God told me so and the moment you want to say that this happiness letter is from God is the moment you have to then look at every one of these leaders and tell me why this is not from God and I think that's a problem that oftentimes the church doesn't want to get into which is to say that you know we're a very unique you know they'll say our church is unique our churches you know we're A peculiar people but you never want to look at the comparisons to how Joseph Smith did things with um other leaders who are doing the exact same things with the exact same methods yeah yep it's a problem it's a problem for sure all right so let's read this letter in the context it was written yeah and so just to say that you know Joseph in this letter is seeking to assure Nancy that what seems horrible and wrong to her which in this case is having a sexual relationship or marriage to Joseph is often right under different circumstances and so when you read these when we go through this letter you have to look at it in the context in which is written which is Joseph Smith promises to explain to Nancy why it is right and proper to consent to this relationship with him and so you know let's just look at how Joseph Smith uses the Bible to assure Nancy Rigden that entering this relationship is actually from God and not just just not just Joseph's desires he says God said thou it shall not kill and at another time he said Thou shalt utterly destroy and so Jonathan Streeter mentions this in his podcast with um Bill real where he says you know if God can not only condone but command both murder and destruction when the situation calls for it then entering into a relationship of polygamous marriage or a concubine situation where Joseph would seem a small by comparison and I think in a lot of ways that's true as you're trying to say like oh my goodness God's done so much more uh what we would see think is wrong so what I'm asking you a small by comparison and I I really do think that these words that Joseph is using are very carefully chosen um to create that environment for Nancy where she's going to read this and say oh I really do need to do this and I think it that as we talked about this is the same exact thing you're going to see with all of these other religious leaders and that's why we need to read this letter in the context It Was Written now as opposed to earlier when we listened to it without that context and I think um that's again to what Nemo is saying like why when when Hank Smith invokes us to dnc132 he's not going to give you the context of where it is or or that the church is not going to put this next to DNC 132 for additional context because they don't want you to know that and this is exactly what is done with uh the atoning sacrifices it's portrayed in womanism is used to minimize your own sacrifices or your own struggles it's like well God can command someone to kill when we usually say that's not okay so this is small by comparison like you said oh well Jesus suffered for you so you can go through this going hungry or whatever it is yep you hear that a lot I mean I I think you hear that in other religions too where people are going through a hard time they're like Jesus died on the cross what you're doing is not a big deal and it's like well yeah that's true and you know yeah it's it's it can be a very manipulative way to to frame your situation especially like one of the you know we're we're airing my interview with Patrick Mason this week who is probably the churches in my view the churches the Mormon church is leading faithful scholar in Mormon studies Bar None I mean Richard bushman's amazing and Terrell Givens is amazing but for me Patrick Givens is like uh has the whole package in ways that the others don't and Patrick Patrick just full-on admits in my interview with him that he thinks polygamy was a huge mistake and he's faithful he believes there are Golden Plates and an angel so when like top faithful I don't know if apologist says the right word for Patrick but I mean it in a non-pejorative way if top faithful apologies for the Mormon Church are also saying that polygamy was a big mistake then when you read something like this letter um it gives it a whole new meeting because you're you have to look at it in this context which is literally just justification for bad behavior yeah absolutely I think no I agree I mean I think this is just Joseph trying to justify to Nancy why he's doing what he's doing and using the voice of God to do it and so yeah yeah um what I wanted to do here is we're um kind of we've covered some of the other um proposals already but when we talk about using the language of Revelation to convince women to say yes I want to read you three examples of how Joseph Smith does this to other women and so Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner says that when she was 12 years old in 1831 that Joseph told me about his great vision concerning me he said I was the first woman God commanded him to take as a plural wife in 1834 he was commanded to take me for a wife um in 1842 I went forward and was sealed to him Brigham Young before the ceiling for time and all eternity I did Justice Joseph told me to do uh Emily Partridge said Joseph said the Lord had commanded him to enter into plural marriage and had given me to him and although I had got badly frightened he knew I would yet have him uh and then Lucy Walker said in the year 1842 President Joseph Smith saw an interview with me and said I have a message for you I have been commanded of God to take another wife and you are the woman and so Joseph is going to these women that Revere him as a prophet of God and using that Authority that they give to Joseph in wielding it as a weapon back onto them to say you view me as a prophet like he literally goes to Lucy Walker and says do you believe I'm a prophet Lucy Walker says I do and then he says I have a message for I've been commanded of God to take another wife and so he's using their trust in him to then say okay you believe I talk to God here's what God wants and it just happens to be you as a polygamous wife and so this is a pattern and this is a pattern of using the voice of God to get women to throw away their moral compass and submit to these requests from Joseph and as we keep mentioning this is the same tactics that every other religious leader that have relations with their followers use this is nothing new this is just following a pattern that's as old as time and um with Joseph Smith and you know unfortunately for Joseph we have just a lot of documentation of it yeah so this is this is standard Joseph behavior in Nauvoo yeah this is just nothing new the only difference here is that we have a letter that Joseph Smith dictated which gives us more of a first person perspective of how he's proposing because like Mary Elizabeth Rollins Leitner that's a late recollection Emily Partridge and Lucy Walker are both giving us what are um probably better Recollections but at the same time it's still filtered through years after the fact and so um the happiness letter just gives us more of a pure look at how Joseph was doing it it's a great prom dresses that that uh that reminds me I'm gonna put in sacred loneliness as a reference in the in the show notes and also year of polygamy um by Lindsey Hansen Park yeah for those who really want to dig into polygamy you know in sacred loneliness is the book that Lindsay bases your polygamy on for the most part yeah and and also I interviewed Todd Compton very early in in uh in the history of Mormon stories podcast so I'll include that um as well because it's just it's great stuff for those who want to go down the polygamy Rabbit Hole absolutely and so um one other key element that Jonathan Streeter notes in the Sunstone presentation is when we read this letter Joseph Smith continues to lean heavily into this inclusive language by saying like using the word we as he gives these Commandments and this framing allows Joseph to present his proposal to Nancy as if they're both under the same requirements under the same pressure from God but the truth is they're under very different circumstances in this proposal Joseph Smith's exaltation is not on the line if Nancy rejects his commandment but Nancy's future and current blessings in the church and for eternity are put at stake um as we'll see as we go through this letter and so Joseph Smith has known Nancy Rigdon since she was a kid and in all these years she's reviewed him as a prophet and Joseph Joseph Smith did with some of his other polygamous wives as we just noted he's going to use the reverence Forum against them to gain their consent and so when Joseph Smith says whatever God requires is right no matter what it is although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire he is using his claimed Authority um his claimed Authority as God's Prophet to tell Nancy what is right even if she knows deep downhill abhorrent the idea of marrying and having sexual relations with Joseph is to her and so you know it's just you know I didn't really notice this until Jonathan pointed out in his podcast but the fact that he's using we here it would almost be like if you know um you were a boss and you called one of your subordinates in and you know made an advance on them and then kind of kept saying that you know we need this we need this well if if the subordinates promotions are dependent upon having a relationship you have nothing to lose outside of I guess her speaking publicly she has everything to lose and in this case Joseph Smith is doing this as if they both have something to lose whereas the only way Joseph Smith loses is Nancy comes out publicly which she did but at the time the all of the pressure is on Nancy here totally totally agree yeah it's it's it's psychologically kind of coercive yeah it is to to be using that especially in his position of authority like it's not until modern times where we really understand consent and coercion and Authority but in his role as Prophet Syrian Revelator is she still a teenager at this point yeah she's 19. to be saying I speak for God and we need to obey God yeah it's just way too much power it's why bosses shouldn't sleep with their employees it's yeah that's why and that's why religious leaders shouldn't sleep with their followers and it's why psychologists psychologists don't sleep with their clients right yeah doctors just medical doctors don't sleep with their clients there's a whole ethical code yeah that when you're in a power of authority you don't you don't yeah you're in your position of authority you don't use that to coerce using undue influence yes absolutely and so this is where we're going to start to get into the the where the letter really lets us know this is about play look at me and so people will say that if you read the happiness letter he's not talking about polygmy he's just talking about blessings and promises and I just want to point out this section makes it Crystal Clear he's talking about polygamy so he says if we if we seek first the kingdom of God all good things will be added so with Solomon first he asked wisdom and God gave it him and with it every desire of his heart even things which might be considered abominable to all who understand the order of Heaven only in part but which in reality we're right because God gave and sanctioned by special Revelation and I just want to point out this part of the letter makes perfectly clear he's talking about a sexual relationship whether it's polygamy or concubineage because Joseph Smith is directly involving or invoking Solomon who was famous for his 700 wives and 300 concubines but this is the part of the the letter that to me is the absolute most important one and the reason is because Joseph Smith is throwing God under the bus here because he is going to say this this line right here um with Solomon when he says that Solomon desired even things which might be considered abominable to all those who understand the order of Heaven only in part he is directly contradicting and undercutting the Book of Mormon because the Book of Mormon tells us that God himself said that Solomon had many wives and concubines which thing was abominable before me saith the Lord and so in the Book of Mormon God says that Solomon's wives and concubines were abominable in Joseph's Miss happiness letter he's saying that anyone who calls what Solomon did abominable knows the order of Heaven only in part which means that God in the Book of Mormon understood the order of Heaven only in part so Joseph Smith here when we talk about moral relativism and in the wiggle room Joseph Smith creates here Joseph Smith makes clear he's willing to throw God directly under the bus and then run him over a few times because he is basically taking the Book of Mormon and setting it on fire because he wants to say that anyone who considers a Solomon did abominable doesn't understand heaven and God directly says it in the Book of Mormon I when I this one actually wasn't in Jonathan's podcast and I was going through it myself and when I saw that line I was like I gotta look at this the word abominable is what made me think of Book of Mormon I I can't say it enough Joseph Smith here is literally telling Nancy Rigdon that God in the Book of Mormon knows the order of Heaven only in part I it's mind-blowing to me that he would put this in a letter that's that's incredible that's that's some hubris right there yeah I I couldn't believe it like I seriously I've tried to explain this to people and people like sometimes like what are you talking about it's like read the book of Mormon that line then read the happiness letter where Joseph Smith is claims to be speaking for God and he's literally he's not just contradicting The Book of Mormon he's saying that God in the Book of Mormon knows the order of Heaven only in part like what a statement to be made and he's only doing it because he's trying to convince a 19 year old girl that she needs to marry him I this is like to me this is like the I hate the word Smoking Gun sometimes but this is like for me the most important takeaway to show how Joseph Smith is willing to completely upend his theology upend everything in order to get what he needs done and yeah it kind of it I mean just like when we covered in the Doctrine and Covenants changes to the doctrine and Covenant section where he or where a revelation would be actually published in print and then a couple years later later completely Rewritten sometimes even to change the original meaning yeah or changes to the Book of Mormon or even changes to patriarchal blessings years after the fact once you once you see how everything could be changed including changed in ways to contradict the original meaning it just makes you want it you know it it sort of leads you to wonder well then what what can we believe what is solid there's nothing solid if anything could be changed and reversed in its meeting at any time again Nemo to your point for expedience right yeah that's yeah I mean in this case Joseph Smith just completely throws the god of the Book of Mormon under the bus for expedience in order to convince Nancy to marry him because I don't know if Joseph is thinking about the Book of Mormon here I kind of think he's not because if he is he's just doing a terrible job of wording this but the fact is you know he's using the exact same phrasing in the Book of Mormon by using the word abominable I I this one blew me away like this one seriously blew me away just because of the fact that Joseph Smith is is saying that God understands Heaven only in part but Joseph Smith apparently understands it fully and and that is just I mean I don't know what else to say that that is to take away the letter for me but obviously it gets a lot worse as far as morality as we go but that one I thought was just such a big one and um I just wanted to keep saying it because it's just so important to me yeah okay Nemo anything you want to add I was gonna say if you view Joseph Smith as the author of The Book of Mormon um then those are his words that he's contradicting and the level of hubris or arrogance or whatever you'll call it it's a view directly into the psyche of Joseph Smith that he's willing to undermine the message of the book that he calls the truest book of any book on the face of the Earth he's willing to undermine that to get what he wants that shows the level of self-importance I think if I recall I recall Richard Bushman noting how little Joseph Smith referenced The Book of Mormon once he starts the church yeah that's true I that you know what now that we see we did an episode about how none of the navu almost none of the Innovative distinctive Mormon doctrine that comes out of Nauvoo ever shows up in the Book of Mormon it would it would make sense to me at some point that the Book of Mormon if it's really just a snapshot of Joseph Smith view Joseph Smith's Theology and and doctrinal worldview as of 1829 it would make sense that not only would he try and ignore it or downplay it but openly contradict it at some point because it becomes it would become a ball and chain to him if he's creative if he's expansive if he's wanting to like grow his understanding of God in the universe then the Book of Mormon is just a ball and chain uh because it basically links him to traditional Christian you know Protestant uh you know 19th century Theology and so yeah he's going to contradict it that makes perfect perfect sense yeah I don't it's your point he didn't talk about it much after he wrote it and I think uh Dan Vogel talks about how when Joseph Smith was doing his treasure digging The Rock was the source of the Charisma people believed that that rock held power once he creates The Book of Mormon people believe the Book of Mormon is the source of the Charisma because he produces it you could see that today I mean look go on social media today and watch how people say he couldn't have possibly written it and when you explain why he could have they just throw that out because that Book of Mormon is a source of the Charisma which means that can't be challenged and so to your point once that's created once he has that Source he doesn't need to keep working on it because it's already there and then he's creating the other stuff as he gets going in Nauvoo and I don't even know if he's aware of the fact that he's undercutting the Book of Mormon because he does not seem to talk about it enough to he talks about bible stuff all the time but the Book of Mormon he doesn't and so to me me I bet you when he's writing this letter to Nancy he's not thinking about that that part of the Book of Mormon I think he's just trying to justify why polygamy is right even though everybody says what Solomon did was horrible and I think it's just it's an interesting um development in the sense of he's undercutting the entire authority of the Book of Mormon and God um in order to get Nancy Rigdon to accept his proposal and I think that's a massive uh problem not just for the character Joseph Smith but the fact that these are this is someone speaking for God and also undercutting God at the same time and that's just that's a huge problem yeah because it's emphatic we believe the Book of Mormons be the word of God yeah yeah and the fullness containing the fullness of the Gospel most perfect book most correct book all this yep absolutely and so uh yeah we just covered this so you know yeah we can just skip it because you know it would just be more or less to say if God Only Knows Heaven only in part then we got a problem here and yeah so you know it's we covered all that so we could skip it okay okay um and then this is another area and you know we covered this a little bit DNC 132 but you know Joseph Smith says God gave it him Solomon and with it every desire of his heart in his letter to Nancy making clear that the desire of Joseph Smith's heart is to enter into relationship with 19 year old Nancy Rigdon it's like otherwise why would Joseph Smith be using this language to assure Nancy that God has chosen uh for her to be in a relationship with Joseph and this is the same rhetorical move we see in DNC 132 which is going to be written the next year where Joseph makes clear that Joseph is the one who's asking about polygamy when it says verily thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I the Lord Justified my servants Abraham Isaac and Jacob and also uh as also Moses David and Solomon my servants as touching the principle and doctrine of having mult many wives and concubines and so it's just to point out that Joseph Smith here is unintentionally kind of telling Nancy that God's giving Joseph his desires um by telling Joseph that Nancy needs to be his wife and I do feel like um this is one of those areas where uh Joseph of course is trying not to frame it that way but when you're using when you're invoking this language it's making clear that it's not Nancy's desire to marry Joseph so it's it's Joseph's you know and uh it's kind of a gross thing in this letter to uh put Nancy as basically a pawn in this plan whereas you know um you know Joseph is literally saying God gave Solomon the desire of his heart by giving him wives and concubine and in this case he's saying and that's why you need to marry me because you're the desire of my heart and that's that backs up John C Bennett's um account too that Joseph says he loves her and all that because he's making clear here that this is his desire and it's it you know it's kind of gross yeah so where where does God end in Joseph Smith's own carnal desires begin you know yeah or did or is God involved at all yeah and I think that's why Patrick Mason concludes that polygamy wasn't of God that the the most likely Occam's razor explanation is that Joseph just got to power hungry saw that that he was sexually desirable or that he could obtain sexual Conquest through the power of His positions and that's the the most rational logical explanation everything else either makes God a monster or twists logic in ways that just okay it doesn't make sense do you want anything to that Nemo no that's perfect okay okay all right so uh the happiness letter alternates promises and threats which is also disturbing yeah and this is just a real quick slide because we're getting in we're kind of getting into the meat of the letter here and I just want to point out because we talked about this with DNC 132 but Joseph Smith does this rhetorical move where he alternates between promises and blessings um when it comes to his polygamous proposals and um he kind of alternates the blessings you get versus the Eternal threats that come if you refuse his his you know commandment and I think this is important to note because this is not a revelation that Joseph Smith is writing this is his letter that he's dictating Nancy he does invoke the voice of God which will get in you know which we'll have we'll see as we go but it does seem interesting that Joseph Smith is going to write a DNC 132 a year later which he claims is directly from God that is going to follow a lot of the patterns he's using in this dictated letter to Nancy Rigdon a year earlier and so I just wanted to note that um because of those similarities and kind of the alternate alternation between promises and threats and also just to point it out because as we read the rest of this letter you're going to see him constantly go between uh making these these promises of blessings and then immediately um giving you the threats if you don't basically submit to what Joseph is is commanding of you yeah and that that just sounds exactly like what he does to Emma and DNC 132 which we've covered in past episodes and may cover it again yeah all right so Joseph Smith Compares an apple to a polygamous marriage yes okay so this section is um from Joseph a parent May whip a child and justly two because he stole an apple whereas if the child had asked for the apple and the parent had given it the child would have eaten it with a better appetite there would have been no Stripes all the pleasures of the Apple would have been secured all the misery of stealing lost this principle adjustively apply to all of God's dealings with his children everything that God gives us is lawful and right and it is proper that we should enjoy his gifts and blessings whenever and wherever he is supposed to is supposed to be so but if we should seize upon those same blessings and enjoyments with Outlaw without Revelation without commandment those blessings and enjoyments would prove cursings and vexations in the end and we would have to lie down in sorrow and wailings of everlasting regret and this this part of the letter is crazy because Joseph Smith is indirectly telling Nancy if she would just enter into the relationship with Joseph without with with Joseph Smith without reservation all of the pleasures of the Apple which is sexual relations with Joseph would have been secured and he's also making clear she rejects um or that if she accepts this proposal not only is it the lawful thing to do but it is a proper thing for her to do to consent and so in other words Joseph is trying to assure Nancy that she accepts his proposal there will be no punishments for it but instead will be Pleasures gifts and blessings and then he also kind of says at the end here if you're going to enter into a relationship like this without Joseph Smith's permission that's a sin and I just feel like this is this one this is where it just gets so hard for me because once you know the context Joseph is literally telling her you can enjoy this a whole lot more if you just consent but if you don't you're going to always wish you had done it you know it's just it's so gross I I it makes me yeah this is this idea as well that like she's something that God can bestow to him yeah essentially like she is Chapel to be traded yep yeah it's and and again this is just all of the benefit here is for Joseph Smith and yeah he's sitting here telling her if you would just accept my proposal you're going to enjoy it a whole lot more than if you would instead of you putting up this fight and then eventually doing it anyways it's just it's it's gross I mean it's it's right massive language we should have to lie down exactly so he's almost a skeleton and saying look I'm gonna suffer too if you don't go through with this yeah oh yeah I yeah I mean he's already married like a dozen women here and so he's like saying oh you know we're gonna have to lie down and start whenever except he's already married it's also interesting to use the the analogy of an apple because the Apple in the Garden of Eden kind of represents sin right it represents the forbidden fruit right yep yep it does yeah because Adam and Eve ate it without they stole it therefore they were punished yep and if only they've done it when it was lawful yeah yeah this is yeah and only Joseph through God can tell you when the Apple's okay to eat when it's just yeah this is hard yeah I struggle with this Mike's not liking this no I this stuff really makes me angry still all right so then Joseph is this is the next part of the letter but in obedience there's joyan's piece unspotted unalloyed and as God has designed our happiness the happiness of all his creatures he never has he never will institute an ordinance or give a commandment to his people that is not calculated in its nature to promote that happiness which he is designed and which will not end in the greatest amount of good and glory to those who become the recipients of his laws and ordinances and so Joseph Smith now is kind of bouncing off of that you know Everlasting regrets and just saying you're gonna have so much joy if you just do this and and saying and this is similar to what Russell Nelson said when they implemented the November 15 policy which is that when they prayed to God they they literally um thought about every single I think the word uses this is permutation of what could happen if they implemented that policy and that was the the best one for for the people of the church and yet we found out that it was such a bad decision that they had to reverse it three and a half years later and here Joseph Smith is telling Nancy Rigdon that the only reason Joseph is getting the Revelation to marry her is because this is what God has determined will give her the most happiness in life is to marry and have sex with him and I just I I I it's so manipulative to have somebody that you Revere as a prophet telling you at the age of 19 or without your parents with you that God is telling you that he that God himself or herself calculated this proposal to Nancy and determined that not only will she be happy with it but it will give her the greatest amount of good and Glory if she enters into it whether it's a polygamous wife or a concubine um I just this is this is stuff where if you show this to anyone in the church and you said this is how Warren Jeff proposed to women they'd be like oh holy frick this is horrible and I yeah I just want to scream right now this stuff is just making me so uncomfortable just so angry and I it's just it's very the wording is very intentional here to tell her this is what you need to do and and the only person that seems to want this to be happy is Joseph and that also tracks with the previous part of the letter where he talks about Solomon's you know getting what he what he heard what his heart desired doesn't talk about what Solomon's wife's desired and you're not going to see that here either yeah yep yeah it's basically saying I want something and it's going to be good for you you know yeah telling you it's going to be good for you even though Nancy clearly doesn't want it like she clearly doesn't want it right yeah she doesn't want it but he's saying he and he you know we so I want to tie these episodes back to earlier episodes we've been doing that the whole series we talked in the first the very first episode about treasure digging as you talk about how treasure digging ends when you cannot produce a physical treasure and you have to stop the digging and I talked about how when you start a religion you could keep people digging forever because you keep promising them things you keep promising them these Eternal blessings that you never have to produce you just have to tell them they're there and in this case it feels similar to that where he's trying to get Nancy to keep on this path with him by promising all these things he never has to deliver he doesn't have to deliver Eternal happiness because he's gonna be long gone uh you know when she dies and when he dies and I'm not even talking about him being killed early I'm just saying in general and this just feels like he's doing this trick of promising these blessings that he never actually has to give and telling her that he can foresee them through God to for in order for Joseph to get the immediate reward and I know it's not the same as treasure taking it's just those tactics of stringing people along um in my opinion uh by giving them promises he never has to to actually provide to them um in order to convince them to do something for him in in the present and and it's just it's it's a trend we see in his Revelations not just with polygamy and it's just horrible when it's being used to to take someone who clearly doesn't want to do something who has been learned their whole life that this is morally wrong and being told to flip it upside down because this is what God wants and not only is what God wants but it is God's calculation that this will make you the happiest person you can possibly be and it's just it's bad Nemo anything Ned I uh I'm horrified by this sort of language being leveled at anyone um the idea that someone's Eternal happiness is threatened uh by their inaction [Music] and I I think again I just want to point out that Joseph seems to paint himself as a co-recipient of God's Wrath or of the revocation of these blessings and he kind of puts himself in the position of walnuts if you don't do this we're both gonna suffer so he's outlined all the benefits for him he keeps trying to say that it'll be benefit to her too but it's really what he wants and then yeah as kind of a last-ditch effort or throughout he's kind of saying well this is going to hurt me too so do you want to hurt me yep um yeah this is it's very similar to the angels he comes across as very manipulative yeah yeah and you know one point about this this last section we did is just to say you know Joseph Smith says that God has designed our happiness the happiness of all of his creatures he never has he never will institute an ordinance or give a commandment to his people that is not calculated in its nature to promote that happiness which he has designed and the church has owned gospel topics essay on polygamy concedes plural marriage was difficult for all involved for Joseph Smith's wife Emma it was excruciating ordeal so how in the world do you get off excuse me I'm this stuff is so angering to me saying that God has designed this to be the most happy we can be when everything we know about how polygamy went tells us that this did not make women as happy as they could be and in a lot of cases it didn't make us the Menace happy as it could be because they a lot of them bit off more they can chew they had problems with the different wives so if polygamy was calculated and intended to promote the most happiness and good why was it so difficult for so many of the women who were subject who are subjected to it and the church's own essay admits this it's not just me putting out an opinion and it becomes much easier to see why the men who claim to speak for God found happiness and taking their younger followers then the younger followers found in taking these men and it's just the history Bears out the fact that Joseph Smith is either full of crap here or God is not good at calculating happiness so pick your poison here um because what Joseph Smith is promising here we know from the historical record is is flat out wrong well this is really personal to me Mike because uh you know my grandmother my mom's mom Karma Benson Parkinson she was the third daughter of a third wife in a Plagueis marriage and I knew my grandma and when I was growing up my my grandma Karma always told me how awesome and wonderful polygamy was and so and how happy the wives were and how happy the children were and I would say like most Mormons today I was raised thinking everything was hunky dory and peachy and wasn't problematic and so your your assertion that polygamy was actually problematic and horrific for many women and children um isn't going to ring true and familiar to most Mormons of pioneer ancestry now what what changed for me is I was able to go back and read the actual historical accounts of my great-grandfather um uh doctor uh I think his name was Richard Parkinson but it turns out that he ended up being divorced from the first wife divorced from the fourth wife uh two children of the second wife died while he was on a mission and he missed their funerals uh one of the wives got addicted to the the the the equivalent of opiates uh and was like wandering around the street on opiates several of the chilled children died you know infant mortality rates that were super high while the doctor medical doctor was off visiting other wives or traveling to foreign countries it was a nightmare for my great grandfather and His Four wives but my grandma either didn't know it or didn't tell me what actually plus there were some really nasty public divorces where the the divorces were written up in the paper and there were custody battles and false accusations of of adultery and and several of them were imprisoned um so like yeah what's hard is Mike is those things you say about polygamy being a nightmare for the people who lived it it's just not known by modern Mormons that that's that's actually what happened yeah I mean and that's why I point out that it's from the gospel topics essay where they they admit it was excruciating for Emma yeah it was it was a hard ordeal for most I mean I think to your point there's always going to be some people you're always going to find some women who will paint it in a good light and you see that a lot uh when you look at some of the accounts and that's why you see a lot in the essay they'll say these women didn't want to do it but then they had a spiritual experience and my point is not to say that their experiences are invalid because we you know I I have spiritual experiences I look back on and I know they weren't what I thought they were um that doesn't mean they were wrong at the time at the time I felt them at the time I believed it was that um but you're always going to find some women I think who are like I think this was the right thing for me and you're also going to have one of the things I didn't put this clip in here but um it's also from Kate Holbrook from a different event and she was talking about how the second wife was always the one that was taken around town that was taken out that was treated the best while the first wife had to stay home and cook and clean and I forgot who the apostle was with her I don't know if I think it's going to know he's kind of giggling in the background as she's explaining how the first wife got completely screwed and so the second wife in that situation probably was pretty happy because she got all the all the benefit of being being my favorite wife um so of course it's not a blanket statement to say every woman uh was miserable but it is to say that to make the statement that this that entering into polygamy will give you the greatest amount of Happiness even the church's essay admits that is absolutely wrong and so Joseph Smith's words here um again fail to to be true and so to me it shows that either Joseph Smith was making it up to to advance his own desires or that God cannot figure out what makes people happy and I think the the only option you could go with there is the first one because the second one is a lot worse implications but I just yeah Nemo anything you want to add before we jump to the next slide kind of okay yeah at least when when it says that it is intended um to bring happiness right there's the argument that could be made um that you know God intended it but he's working through imperfect people and so therefore it didn't bring happiness right yeah it's kind of like this loophole right yeah but the problem with that is you still have to take ownership of how Something Turned out even if it was God included needs to take ownership of how Something Turned out even if it was intended to create happiness it's the same with the church and their abuse helpline the church's answer to the article by Mike Resendez was well this helpline is intended to help members and no one's arguing with that intention intended to help everyone's eyes yeah it's what it was actually used for or how it was actually used in certain cases caused a lot of harm a lot of pain a lot of suffering and it's the same with polygamy now you would expect better from God because you know he's a perfect being but if that's what God intended and then we saw the result maybe God should have come out and said something about that yep yeah yeah that's yeah a good point sorry no no it's a good point and it's one of the ones we've talked about a lot where it's like isn't it convenient that God always tells Joseph which wives he's given to him but never goes to the wives ahead of time to say hey by the way I want you to marry Joseph it's you know it's a convenient thing that only one person is able to to discern the will of God and and that happens through today as well um where we have you know well we go through in more episodes but you know Russell Nelson wants the name of the church to be changed got two prophets to rebuke him Nelson lives long enough to be profit while you know voila you know this is what God wants and you see this here it's whoever is the one person that is revered as a prophet gets to tell everyone else what God wants it and that that leads to bad things it can doesn't always but it does offer in his 14 fundamentals following the prophet I believe said the living profit is more important than previous profits yep so yeah absolutely yeah all right so this one is uh where Joseph Smith is is going to go back to to threats against Nancy in the letter and this says blessings offered but rejected are no longer blessings but become like the talent hidden the Earth by the wicked and slothful servant the prophet good returns to the giver the blessing is bestowed on those who will receive and occupy For unto him that hath shall be given and he shall have abundantly but unto him that hath not or will not receive shall be taken away that which he hath or might have had and so Joseph Smith is telling Nancy that if he doesn't accept his proposal not only is Nancy going to lose all the blessings she would receive from being married and having sex with Joseph but she's going to lose all the blessings that she's received in her life through the church and so you know if you think about that in today's terms you know say you're a 19 year old girl and and you know Russell Nelson or somebody else comes up to you and wants to marry you and you say no they say hey not only are you going to lose all the things you'd have you'd lose all of your blessings like everything yeah all that's got on and so you know when Joseph Smith uses the word offered here he is not by accident given the context of why the letter is written Joseph is making it clear that rejecting his offer which he terms as a blessing would end up costing Nancy Rigdon all that she hath or might have had and so this is not just a manipulative tactic to gain her consent this is spiritual extortion because not only is he trying to manipulate her he is now basically saying if you don't do this you're going to lose everything you've worked your whole life for and I don't know Jonathan Streeter and his podcast kind of Compares it to the mafia saying it'd be a shame if those blessings were taken away I don't know how else to phrase it this is spiritual extortion and I just want to say once again if you showed this to a member of the church if I got to go to a gospel Doctrine class and I said hey this is what Warren Jeffs was teaching what do you think they'd be like this guy is a monster and then if you said it was Joseph Smith be like oh it just there's there's no world in which someone would read this under the context of it being trying to explain why it should be a polygamous bride and think this is anything other than spiritual extortion this is horrible yeah yep no nothing really to add there uh there should be it should be yeah God should say hey if if this feels right to you then do it but if it feels wrong to you don't do it it shouldn't be this is you know a 30 what year old man with claiming to speak for God telling a teenage girl yeah do this or lose all your gospel blessings there's just yeah that's why someone like Patrick Mason's gonna just say none of this can be from God or God's a Monster yeah yeah and he's right because this is I mean I think Joseph is 36 at this point so it's a 36 year old man it's like a 19 year old girl that if you don't marry me you're gonna lose everything that you that you believe you're gonna get it's just what he's already God when he's already got 12 wives yeah he doesn't need her I mean like he doesn't need her like and yeah sorry I'm sure people watching this can tell I'm not really in the same headspace I normally am because this stuff just really bothers me all right let's go to the next slide yeah so this is using uh the sense of urgency to circumvent Nancy's reluctance to to accept his proposal so he says be wise today tis Madness to defer next day the Fatal precedent May plead thus until wisdom and is pushed out of time into eternity and so the sentence is trying to use this poetic language to basically apply pressure to accept his proposal because you just don't know when an offer might disappear and it's kind of like if you're at a car dealership and someone's like hey you know if you if you want if you before you walk out we can knock an extra thousand dollars off of this car but if you walk out that that sale price is gone and this is of course a much more serious situation but this is um a very similar tactic that he uses with with Lucy Walker and so when Lucy Walker um we've talked about her in previous episodes but her mother dies and he sends her father off on a mission and says that he'll have them live with with um with the Smith household he calls her an adoptive daughter and um everyone in town kind of thinks of hers like Joseph Smith's adoptive daughter not in a legal sense but just that he's taking care of her so her father's on a mission and Joseph Smith proposes to her for a polygamist marriage and Lucy hesitates and rejects it at first and so Joseph then goes back to her later on and says it is a commandment of it is a command of God to you I will give you until tomorrow to decide this matter if you reject this message the gate will be closed forever against you and so just with Lucy Walker Joseph Smith has somebody who is refusing his request uh to marry him and he's after a period of time he then uses a sense of urgency to get them to consent the proposal and in so both situations we have these young girls who are teenagers who are alone without their parents with them which again is something that you would see from other self-proclaimed prophets who had relations with their followers to get them to consent that to the proposal and circumvent their hesitancy because of the fact that now Joseph Smith is putting uh this idea of urgency that if you don't accept it you never know one it might be pulled away and you might lose all of your blessings and this is just this is a tactic you would use when someone's hesitating to try to almost short-circuit that hesitancy and get them to just do it because they're afraid of missing out it's a tactic as old as religion itself though yeah it is the second coming is always around the corner um especially when people are sure to lifespans you never know when you're gonna get some disease and die so you better make sure you're all square with God you know it's those suppression tactics have been used for a long time yeah absolutely and there was a a clip I saw recently from I think it was a prophet but it was definitely a leader of the church um and they were talking about uh some a couple that got married in a civil marriage and they got into a car accident shortly after and so he's like basically basically saying that they're they're now separated for eternity you know and and this is why you don't put off having a temple marriage because you might die tomorrow and it says yeah I think you're right and so and and I'll just say as a psycho you know someone with the psychology PhD it you manufacture the perception of urgency or scarcity because it makes someone more likely to say yes so when I like you said when a car salesman says well when when the TV when the TV advertisement says you know five left by today there's no there's no way that there's actually an inventory guy counting how many inventory items are left and then saying okay now it's four okay now it's three that's literally contrived to wield undue influence to make you feel like you got to decide now yeah I mean I I have a mark my degrees in marketing and you know one of the things you learn in in your sales classes and in any sales job is that when you sense that somebody's about to walk out the door or someone's about to hang up the phone you try to do things to make it seem like there's more urgency to getting it done now because if you wait until later you're gonna miss out and the reason is because it's a sales person you're afraid of missing out not you're not afraid for them you're afraid for yourself and you're essentially projecting your own um necessity for Speed onto them absolutely Well it's worse because it's it's fundamentally manipulative oh yeah and it's from somebody claiming to speak for God and in this letter it points speaks in the voice of God and I just I don't know what to say yeah yep so it's not good and here we learned about how liberal how liberal God is right yes so now Joseph Smith is going to continue to tell us that you know what we think God really wants is not really what he wants because I'm going to tell you what he really wants and so he says our heavenly father is more liberal in his views and boundless in his mercies and blessings then we are ready to believe or receive and at the same time is more terrible to the workers of iniquity more awful in the executions of his punishments and more ready to detect every false way than we were apt to supposed him to be he will be inquired by his children and so Joseph here is doing a a mix of the the promises of blessings and threats in one in one little blurb here uh by assuring Nancy that a polygamous relationship with Joseph is not as immoral as it might sound because God's actually more liberal than we are ready to believe which means you know what you read in the Bible and all that can be thrown out the window because God's way more liberal than that and this is the problem that comes from having only one person who claims to be the authority to speak for God because they can use that authority to claim what God once for those who believe and anyone or who believes that they're a prophet and so when a commandment from the self-proclaimed Prophet seems immoral and wrong the prophet can then claim God's actually much more liberal than we're ready to believe in order to circumvent the sense of morality that the target has been taught since birth in in this case in the church and you know at the same time that Joseph's working to convince Nancy that polygamy is approved by God he also switches to make sure that Nancy is well aware that not only his punishments bad but they're more awful in the execution of his punishments to let her know that if she you know rejects The Proposal that's what she's going to get and this is just this is yeah yeah you know Nemo anything you want to say about was it's just is that No More Mr Nice Guy card it's like well I'm telling you that I know more about God and God is more liberal so God will be fine with this yes upon just how awful God will be if you're not cool with this yeah this I yeah this it's like it's like saying look if you're hesitant about the fact that polygamy has been taught to you since you were a kid that it's wrong I'm telling you God's actually way more liberal and way more uh okay with this stuff super cool God's cool it's not super super cool you don't have to worry about that but by the way if you don't do it you're screwed you think burning in hell is bad oh he's way worse you know it's just it's there's a dichotomy there in God's attitude it's like God's really liberal yeah but also super authoritarian yeah yeah it's like where he where is he on the chart yeah he's like he's everywhere yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah okay all right it's good let's keep going yeah and so you know piggybacking off the line that God's an aneurysm yeah that guy you know he says that God is more liberal than we're you know ready to believe I I would argue the god of Mormonism is more inconsistent than we're ready to believe because you know on one hand you know we're being told that God is more liberal on the other hand as we see from the different prophets in church history that liberal view change tends to change based on the worldview of each Prophet so we have early prophets uh all the way up until 1978 that believe that people with black skin Chanel the priesthood uh Russell Nelson today believes the word Mormon should not be used after past prophets publicly called Nelson out for suggesting that and then of course as we talked about earlier in this episode God's views on LGBT members it changed in just three and a half years after the public outcry following their 2015 Revelation caused it to be reversed in 2019 and so you know we talk about all the changes uh you know the garments have gotten shorter the word of wisdom has gotten stricter the god of Mormon went God of Mormonism went from threatening people if they don't get into polygamy to threatening them if they do and so don't forget the temple ceremony was super violent and Masonic and they've slowly which and it was supposed to be Revelation and now all of a sudden they're cutting down the the violent parts and the cruelty parts of the temple ceremony you know um and and really in response to surveys membership surveys and public pressure from from people like you know the evangelicals that put out the godmakers and so on the one hand it just shows either God's changing all the time or prophets are really responding to public pressure but if if profits are truly either responding to public pressure or their own self-interest or their own like in Nelson's case in their own personal pet projects or opinions then it just you just realize there's too much power to give men I I've often said on Mormon stories that should be illegal to claim you speak for God because you're it just gives you too much power and it should be illegal yeah I just you know like I said if you want to believe he's more liberal then we're ready to believe it opens up other doors because it it doesn't track through the history of the church it only tracks with Joseph Smith when he's trying to get something he wants and we're showing that through these episodes it's not just me throwing that out there I mean we could show how God seems to respond with Revelation to everything Joseph wants and I think Nemo pointed this out earlier but today ask for a revelation who heavenly mother is and they're like tell instead of getting a revelation who heavily mothers or going on General Conference and telling members not to not to speculate because it's like what are you here for you know it's just so inconsistent and um yeah so uh this is where Joseph is going to go back to making Promises of great blessings for obeying Joseph through God and so he says um the letter goes continues he says ask and he shall receive seek and ye shall find but if ye will take that which is not your own or which I have not given you you shall be rewarded according to your Deeds but no good thing while I withhold from them who walk uprightly before me and do my will in all things and who will listen to my voice and this important part and to the voice of my servant whom I have sent for I Delight in those who seek diligently to know my precepts and abide by the laws of my kingdom for all things shall be made known unto them in my own due time and in the end they shall have joy and so this is another really quick and seamless uh switch to go from the voice of God when he needs to when he says you know ask and he shall receive secret then he goes immediately into you know um that and we talk about that sorry with DNC 132 we talk about how he dictates that entire thing um in in a single sitting and it's what 3 200 words after Hiram ask him to do Ciroc and so it just shows how good Joseph is at using these words and switching between the voice of God and the voice of his own and as I mentioned earlier read the way Joseph Smith translations from the voice of himself speaking for God to speaking in the voice of God as if he's receiving a revelation in that final section he says um listen to my voice and to the voice of my servant whom I have sent so that's not Joseph smithing that's Joseph Smith channeling God in this letter and it just shows how Joseph Smith is so good at you know seamlessly switching between the two and when people say Joseph couldn't have written the revelations written The Book of Mormon this shows you how good Joseph Smith is doing it and um and as I said it this whole letter is set up to say that God wants us for Nancy so listen to the voice of my servant because he's the only one that can speak to you because you can't get that for yourself and from his latest conference talk where he talks about heavenly mother he said ever since God appointed prophets they have been authorized to speak on his behalf but they do not pronounce doctrines fabricated of their own mind um or teach what has not been revealed and then he goes on to say demanding Revelation from God is both arrogant and unproductive so you know if you want to answer if you if you plead with God for an answer if you demand an answer from God and say I need an answer to this I mean it's okay for Joseph Smith to demand a time-sensitive answer from Nancy on whether she will be as polygamous bride but it's not okay for her to demand from God well I need to know what's going on here yeah that's arrogant and unproductive yeah yeah so what was that so what did Nancy do so did Nancy accept or not did she acquiesce or did she not acquiesce yeah so Nancy obviously does not uh feel that marrying Joseph would give her the greatest amount of happiness and so she can we pause on that like that's a pretty miraculous thing like it is she's living I I'm assuming she lives in Nauvoo Joseph is mayor he's head of the militia he's prophet of God he's Chief cook and bottle washer he's got all the money all the power in the entire town and she has the the gumption to stand up to him and say no when so many other people don't including oftentimes parents right yeah nothing's a legend I think we need to get that out there yeah as he rigged it is a legend yeah yeah I wish I wish everyone in this church in 2022 could be more like Nancy Rigdon be willing to call out things that need to be called out instead of constantly defending the indefensible and Nancy Rigdon was in a position of being the daughter of one of the top people in the church who knew and revered Joseph from the time as a child and she still was willing to listen to her inner sense and be like yeah this is this is absolutely not from God and you're full of crap and reject him I mean the amount of Courage that must have taken in that situation I can't even imagine and for her to do that she deserves respect from everyone because that should be an episode is like the top 10 Heroes of oh yeah unknown unknown Heroes of Mormonism William law is up there you know I think I think uh Lucy Harris has to be up there and I think Nancy rig didn't rig the next interview there yeah yeah yeah so what was it what was the Fallout so after John Bennett releases the letter Joseph Smith and I talked about this earlier Joseph Smith uses his authority to just basically trash her name uh they have the local newspaper printing articles that she was having sex with John Bennett um and what happens is basically Sydney Rigdon um by the accounts is obviously upset with Joseph Smith and Joseph Smith by John C Bennett's account um Joseph Smith admits he wrote the letter after denying it and so Sydney rignton is going to release what the church in their gospel topics essay might call a carefully worded denial about the letter he says dear sir I am fully authorized by my daughter Nancy to say to the public through the medium of your paper that the letter which has appeared in this sangamo journal uh making part of General Bennett's letters to said paper purporting to have been written by Mr Joseph Smith tour was unauthorized by her and that she never I don't know what salt means but gave to General Bennett or any other person that said letter was written uh by said Mr Smith nor in his handwriting but by another person and in another person's handwriting she further wishes me to say that she'd never at any time authorize uh assuming it's General Bennett to use her name in the public papers as she has done which has been greatly to the wounding of her feelings and she considers that the obtruding of her name before the public in the manner in which it has been done to say the best of it is a flagrant violation of the rules of gallantry and cannot avoid to insult her feelings which she wishes the public to know I would further state that Mr Smith denied to meet the authorship of that letter and what's really interesting about this Letter's was not saying so Joe you know they talk about this in the podcast with Jonathan Streeter but he's constantly saying it's not in Joseph's handwriting which is always true because he is the scribes and so it's it's true it doesn't really answer and then um you know he also talks about you know Mr Smith denied to me the author authorship of that letter but by the accounts he does deny it and then eventually comes back and says yeah I did it because Nancy won't back down and so I feel like this letter allows Sydney Rigdon to um basically not let Joseph completely off the hook but write it in a way where he's not you know he's not outright lying and um to try to put the matter behind them but you can kind of read through the lines here to to show that that it seems like Sydney rigdon's being very careful here to not uh completely let Joseph off off the hook in my opinion Nemo what's your reaction to that statement and that's some damage Oaks level of like carefully worded lawyer language that shows that well I'm technically telling the truth but as I've said I'm not concerned necessarily with whether people are technically telling the truth but whether what they're saying is in the spirit of the truth so that's really important and and the spirit of what is being said here is actually that of trying to like uh like Mike said put this thing behind them and try not to give ammo to either side when actually the spirit of the truth would be to say right this is what happened Joseph wrote a letter to my daughter and she didn't want to go through with it yeah and that's important to me yeah for me just to reiterate one of the most disturbing things I ever encountered about Joseph Smith are the times where he uses his power and his pre you know power with the printed press to defame and and completely denigrate and smear the women who publicly uh outed him for propositioning them regarding polygamy and sex and Nancy Rigdon wasn't the only one but she was one and he would full on in my memory call them harlots and and in in the newspapers and their only crime was saying I don't want to have sex with you Joseph and I'm gonna I'm gonna tell people you're propositioning me that is for sure one of the worst things Joseph ever did in my view the only other thing I'll say just just in response to this letter it just shows you know Sydney Rigdon is the dad of Nancy Rigdon and it just shows how much power Joseph Smith had whether it's Heber C Kimball regarding Helen Mark Kimball the 14 year old that ends up Joseph's wife Joseph had so much power like almost like Yoda or you know Obi-Wan Kenobi level power over the minds of his followers that he could make he could make the parents of teenage daughters that Joseph Smith is sexually propositioning want to defend Joseph and not their own daughters yep I was yeah I was going to mention that too because he's being careful here but he is not he he's he's participating in a lot of ways in what is happening in Nancy Rigden here by not standing out for it more forcefully and I can't I can't even imagine having I can't I can't imagine having a daughter and having a person almost twice her age using the voice of God to try to get her into polygamous relationship then having that guy putting out people to write articles calling her a saying she's having sex with all these people and then writing a letter being like yeah you know we figured it out she didn't authorize the letter Joseph said it wasn't in his handwriting you know we're cool I'd be like screw you guys you know but but yeah it just it just shows the pressure and the thing is he came back into the country to this yeah um no no he didn't my bad my bad note right yep well but no but he wasn't aware of it obviously when it happened because it doesn't seem like he was aware of it until the letter got out or maybe it was before the letter got out but it was after the proposal because that's when she you know by the account Nancy Rickman he he says it didn't happen then Nancy comes out and says you're a liar and yeah and and it you know you get this when when either Joseph Smith's treasure digging one of the apologetic responses to defend Jose's treasure digging is hey but a lot of people still retain belief in Joseph's power even though he never found any treasure or or you'll get all these people who live polygamies say um you know that they never denied their belief that that it was of God that doesn't speak to me to the truthfulness of those behaviors it speaks to me to the unhealthy level of power and influence that Joseph had over his followers yeah Joseph's ability to convince people of his Divine Authority isn't proof of his Divine Authority exactly it's how you could you could put that it's proof of the danger of his claims yeah yeah and what I do want to say is the image that comes to my head um as I've researched this is essentially of um Sydney calling Joseph out and saying Joseph what's going on Nancy's told me about this Joseph coming over and said no I didn't write that letter Nancy going um I have it and then Joseph going ah well yeah I did but is that kind of what happened as as far as I understand it yeah and if I understand correctly and I believe from the podcast they talk about how Joseph immediately says he was trying to test her virtue by making the proposal which is another thing you hear um that uh when he asked Heber or Kimball for his wife and Hebrew finally gives it then he says oh it was an abrahamic test I was just testing you and by doing that line it allows you when you propose to someone and they reject you to say I was just testing to see if you were virtuous which is a really good way for a person that is using the manipulative tactics of Joseph Smith to then give himself this plausible deniability like guys I am the righteous one here I was just making sure that she was too and she rejects me because she knows you know it's just it's the Loyalty test stuff that Jim Jones used with this Kool-Aid it's basically hey everyone drink this poisonous Kool-Aid to show that you're loyal they drink it it's not poisonous but now he knows who's gonna follow him to the death and who's not yeah yeah it's like saying there was an abrahamic test and Abraham went up and he's like I can't kill my kid and all of a sudden God's like Abraham I will write you a letter I mean it's just it's yeah I don't mean to be facetious I'm just this the Apologetics for this are awful and to compare this to an abrahamic Test is stupid because an abrahamic test doesn't require you to go through fully and have sex with the prophet it would require you to accept his proposal and then Joseph to be like we're not going to go through with it I was just seeing if you were loyal to God and and yeah yeah anyways yeah um so the uh so the city of riggin writes that letter um and then just three days after uh they published in the WASP uh this letter where it says we are authorized to say by General Joseph Smith because he called himself General at this point uh that the Affidavit of Stephen Stephen Markham relative to miss Nancy Rigdon as published in the handle of a hand bill of affidavits was unauthorized by him the certificate of Elder Rigdon relative to the letter being satisfactory so just a few days earlier uh in that same paper on the same day that uh Sydney rigdon's statement was printed Markham wrote In The Wasp that he had witnessed Nancy early on in a compromising situation with John Bennett Markham claimed that many vulgar Unbecoming and indecent sayings and motions passed between them and testified that he was convinced that they were guilty and unlawful and illicit intercourse with each other now there are a number of people who rushed out to say that this was bullcrap um including George W Robinson Oliver Olney Joseph H Jackson and John Olney uh Joseph Jackson added that when as happens in the case of Miss Martha Brotherton and miss Nancy Rigdon the prophet's overtures were rejected with disdain and exposure he threatened he would set a hundred hellhounds on them to destroy the reputation and that's a pattern that occurs Beyond this example anytime Joseph Smith is attacked he flips those accusations against the accuser and that's from um Richard s van Wagner's Mormon polygament history and it's true I mean we see it where when Joseph Smith is accused of things he usually accuses the accuser of the same things and we see that not just with polygamy we'll see it when we go through some of the other stuff as well and it's just it's a pattern okay all right well I think we're coming to the end so two more slides what's this one about so this one is also from Nemo's presentation it's just uh you know now that you've heard the context the letter now that you've heard the letter broken apart this is just a shorter clip it's just like listen to the to these leaders it's Thomas S Monson who at this point was the second counselor in the first presidency but listen to them recite this letter and ask yourself uh you know what you think of of hearing them use these words all right let's roll the tape happiness is the object and design of our existence and will be the end thereof if we but pursue the path which leads to it and that path is virtue uprightness faithfulness Holiness and keeping all of The Commandments of God we cannot keep all the Commandments without first knowing them and we cannot expect to know all or more than we now know unless we comply with or keep those we have already received yeah I'm just thinking if there was a general knowledge among the membership about the true origins of the happiness letter and the context behind it I could just see all of those pastors leaders cringing that they ever referenced it but since the church has done such a great job keeping its factual history from the membership the church is in cringing in its use of that quote because the members have no idea what's actually being quoted yeah yeah I mean it's just once you know the context and you hear them making those statements and you know from a leadership standpoint it's a great statement because you're basically saying you'll be happiest if you obey what we tell you because that's that's what it's all about and um yeah it's just oh my goodness I hear it now it's just after hearing that podcast and reading the letter and doing you know it's just it makes my blood boil as you can tell from this this episode so Nemo you don't have anything it's just uh like anything else that has a hidden context in the ideas church when you once you hear it you will struggle to unhear it yeah yeah yeah I'm sure I'm sure that right now if it hasn't already been done the correlation committee is basically adding an addendum to its curriculum guidelines to never reference the happiness letter ever again in any future general purpose talk or curriculum It's gotta that will happen if it hasn't already happened I'd be shocked if you heard those phrases in general conference ever again because I think once Jonathan shooter did that podcast with Christopher C Smith I think putting it on the map it if people want to like um if you Google that quote I think my website's like the second entry you know and so the church is not going to want that to be something people can find because it's so damning and uh yeah it'll disappear all right well this takes us to the final concluding slide yeah so um again I just want to give a huge shout out to Jonathan Streeter for his work on this letter um to Christopher C Smith he was on the podcast as well and to Nancy Rigdon for not burning the letter and being willing to stand up to Joseph Smith um you know to me this letter is just 100 manipulation in the name of God and in the process of doing this to a very vulnerable 19 year old uh Joseph Smith throws God directly into the bus as we talked about directly stating that anyone who calls you know Solomon having wives and concubines an abominable thing uh knows the order of Heaven only in part which is exactly what God says in the Book of Mormon so I think to me that's a huge takeaway that Joseph Smith basically upends the Book of Mormon in order to give himself more um justification to Nancy Rigdon to enter into this relationship and um you know we've talked about this in all of these episodes we've done not just with polygamy but every member needs to know these things and in this case this is a document that survived when it was not supposed to and it gives us a direct look into what I consider to be predatory tactics to manipulate women who do not want to be in a relationship with you um to manipulate them to enter into that relationship because you are using the the voice and the commands of God um in order to to um to flip their moral compass and you know while Russell Nelson isn't asking members to to marry him today in polygamous relationships um church leaders continue to use manipulative tactics to keep members from looking under the hood at these problems and I really think um that this one in particular is one that every member should know and as I've said in previous episodes if you if you want to listen to this and you still think Joseph Smith was was righteous and when he did more power to you I don't know what else to say but I do think one way or the other you should know it and and at that point you're going to do with it what you want uh but the fact that the church's side of this us without giving context tells you just how damning this letter is and I hope it continues to get more exposure because every woman in this church I feel like should know this because they should know how women were viewed and and treated in the implementation of polygamy because it is still Doctrine today yeah God's got some explaining to do Nemo what how do you want to conclude you you know your observations for this episode other than it's a a letter full of very manipulative wording and I think the fact that that came from someone that we hold up to be a prophet of God and someone who is invoking the voice of God to do that that really needs to sit on the consciousness of members of this church um because if people want to write to offers him making a mistake him being flawed they can do that but they really need to be aware that this you want to talk about the level of mistakes mistakes if that's what you call them that Joseph Smith made this is up there with some of the more egregious things that he did um and so it really needs to factor into your calculation if you are looking at his his you know Divine Authority and and what you think of him all right well thanks Nemo we love your channel Nemo the Mormon on YouTube check it out subscribe to Nemo donate to Nemo Nemo we're honored that you're part of the Mormon stories family uh about say pleasure to be here um I'm looking forward to General Conference I'm going to be doing my half time shows as usual Shameless plug with the other Revengers we're staying up late at night with the revengers or just you yeah other members of the events will come on um a couple of viewers come on as guests normally as well so it's a good laugh um but yeah after every single General Conference session I go live within 15 minutes and we'll be talking about what we just heard awesome yeah and good I'll just know that uh for anyone who's listening uh you know I try not to get emotional with this stuff and usually I don't really feel that but this one does so I apologize if I came off a little more upset with this one but you know it's just that's that's my reaction this stuff this stuff has always bothered me even as a believing member as I said I'm still a member but not a believing member um and so you know if anyone was kind of taken aback by that yeah this one is one that gets me and I was trying not to but obviously failed a little bit but you know like like we said this is this is something that I think everyone needs to know and you know as Nemo said when you talk about mistakes when you talk about Joseph Smith making mistakes these are mistakes being made with using the voice of God and we talked about this all the way back in the treasury episode which is to say once you can show Joseph Smith is willing to use intentional deception which we talked about with the feather in the dirt um then all of a sudden you have to go well then what is he not deceiving about or where else is he deceiving and in this case if he's willing to deceive in the voice of God to get women to marry him um using kind of bad biblical you know scholarship using you know reasons that are upending the Book of Mormon you then do have to then justify either if Joseph's making a mistake in the voice of God then how do we know everything else he's saying in the voice of God it got us true especially when as Nemo said they're all full of mistakes as well and so this one just happens to hit me a little harder because this goes beyond the whole like is the church true like I could talk about the first vision is that true or false priesthood restoration this one is more like not only is the church true or not but it's like is it good or not is Joseph Smith good or not and that's one everyone's gonna have to answer on their own but for me this one is just horribly problematic because this is someone that we are told to Revere as really the second best person in modern times you know to Jesus and this is intentional manipulation and as Nemo said there's so many mistakes that at some point you can't just keep calling them mistakes that this is a pattern yeah I'm just I'm just cold and British um Mike so I think you have every right to be upset by this I mean understanding what this is as just as an interpersonal reaction between two people is upsetting and yeah I think that's perfectly valid yeah well Mike you don't have to apologize we're just all on behalf of my viewers and listeners we're just so grateful for all the work you've done on LDS discussions and for your Mastery of this content and for your willingness to come on Mormon stories for this amazing Series so we thank you for that well thank you and Nemo thanks so much for being with us I know you're across the pond as they say so uh thank you for taking the time and doing I know it's late there so thank you again no worries yeah all right and and for those who uh you know just need the reminder this LDS discussions uh series is available as part of the Mormon stories podcast Main feed but it's also available as its own playlist on YouTube all the episodes listed in order you can also get it on Spotify both audio and video format on Spotify wherever you get your audio podcast apps and we have you know many episodes to come once we finish off polygamy uh we still have book of Abraham Kinderhook plates Joseph Smith's translations uh spiritual Witnesses and testimonies to the Book of Mormon and elsewhere you know epistemology how the church handles doubt Revelation so much more to come so uh stay tuned for more episodes from Mike and Nemo we hope you can join us again absolutely all right thanks everybody thanks for joining us today on Mormon stories please donate if you value this content uh you can go to mormonstorage.org click on the Donate button become a monthly donor your donations will make this possible we lose donors every week people that lose interest or move on or hit Financial hard times or choose to support other things so we need new donors to step up to support old old donors uh former donors so you can go to mormonsstorage.org click on the Donate button uh become a monthly donor and we'll keep providing this content and serving the mission of the open stories foundation for as long as we have the support your tax donations are deductible in the U.S um and we're transparent in our finances and we live to serve your mission and we we do our best to pay our staff and our contributors if they want to be paid so please support us if you can please spread the word share this episode these episodes and give us feedback if you're not outraged by the happiness letter like Mike or me or Nemo then then email us or comment and tell us why you're not outraged um why you don't think this necessarily is a problem we would love to hear that as well so take care everyone be kind everyone and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon stories podcast take care