Episode 3

Book of Mormon Translation

Original Air Date: 2022-05-03

Book of MormonTranslationSeer Stone

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This detailed summary covers the third episode of the "LDS Discussions" series on the Mormon Stories Podcast, featuring host John Dehlin, co-host Jen, and Mike from LDS Discussions. The episode focuses on the historical reality of the Book of Mormon translation process compared to the narrative traditionally taught by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Overview and Purpose

The overarching goal of the series is "informed consent," ensuring that members and investigators have access to the full historical truth regarding Mormon truth claims 1. Mike explains that this episode builds directly upon the previous discussions regarding treasure digging and the gold plates 2. The hosts argue that until a person understands the foundational issues—like the translation method—they cannot fully evaluate the validity of the Church's claims 3.

The Translation Method: Rock in the Hat vs. Plates on the Table

A central theme of the video is the discrepancy between the Church's artistic depictions and the historical accounts of the translation.

  • The Traditional Narrative: The Church has traditionally depicted Joseph Smith sitting at a table studying the gold plates, often with "spectacles" (Urim and Thummim) 4.
  • The Historical Reality: Eyewitness accounts from David Whitmer, Martin Harris, and Emma Smith consistently describe Joseph placing a "seer stone" (or peep stone) into a hat, pulling the hat continuously around his face to exclude light, and dictating words that appeared on the stone 5, 6, 7.
  • "South Park" Accuracy: The hosts highlight that the cartoon South Park depicted the "rock in the hat" method in 2003, while a Church-produced movie in visitor centers two years later (2005) still depicted Joseph translating directly from the plates 8, 9. This suggests South Park was more honest about the mechanics of translation than the Church was at the time 9.

    • Eyewitness Descriptions of a "Tight" Translation

    The video reviews accounts from scribes and witnesses that describe a "tight translation" process:

  • David Whitmer stated that characters would appear on the stone with the English interpretation underneath. Joseph would read it to the scribe, and the text would not disappear until it was written correctly 5.
  • Martin Harris confirmed that if a sentence was not written correctly, it remained on the stone until corrected 7.
  • Implications: This method implies God was responsible for the specific wording, spelling, and grammar. This creates a problem for the Church because the original manuscript of the Book of Mormon contained thousands of grammatical errors and run-on sentences that had to be fixed in later editions 10, 11.

    • Connection to Treasure Digging

    The hosts emphasize that the translation method was identical to the folk magic practices Joseph Smith used for treasure digging.

  • Identical Methodology: Before the Book of Mormon, Joseph used the same stone in a hat to look for buried treasure and lost objects 12.
  • Witness Testimony: Neighbors like William Stafford and Joseph Capron described Joseph using the stone to "see" underground treasures and spirits 12, 13.
  • Conclusion: Joseph did not transition from folk magic to a divine process; he applied the exact same method of "scrying" to the production of scripture 14.

    • The Irrelevance of the Gold Plates

    A significant "smoking gun" discussed is that the gold plates were not actually used during the translation.

  • Plates Not in the Room: According to accounts like Emma Smith’s, Joseph dictated with his head in the hat while the plates were wrapped in a cloth or not even present on the table 6, 15.
  • Richard Bushman’s Admission: The video plays a clip of LDS historian Richard Bushman admitting that the plates were often wrapped up while Joseph looked into a hat. Bushman asks, "What in the world are the plates for?" if they weren't used 15.
  • Logical Disconnect: The hosts argue that the elaborate story of creating, preserving, transporting, and hiding the plates becomes nonsensical if the text was simply channeled through a rock 16, 17.

    • Textual and Visual Problems

  • The "Caractors" Document: The video analyzes a document containing characters Joseph Smith allegedly copied from the plates. The hosts present evidence that these characters appear to be "deformed English"—essentially English letters and numbers turned upside down or sideways 18, 19.
  • Misleading Church Media: The hosts critique the Church's "Now You Know" video series for creating fake "Reformed Egyptian" characters rather than using the actual characters Joseph produced, likely because the real characters look like modified English 20, 21.
  • The 116 Pages: The loss of the initial 116 pages of manuscript is cited as evidence Joseph was dictating rather than translating. If he were truly translating from an ancient record, he should have been able to re-translate the same text; instead, he claimed he could not reproduce it 22.

    • Addressing Apologetics

    The video critiques several common apologetic defenses:

  • The "Urim and Thummim": This term was retrofitted into Church history years later (around 1832) to make the folk magic seer stone sound more biblical 23, 24.
  • The "Cell Phone" Analogy: Brad Wilcox and other apologists compare the seer stone to an iPhone to make the "rock in the hat" seem normal to modern youth. The hosts reject this analogy because cell phones are proven technology, whereas Joseph's stone was a magical object used for failed treasure hunting 25, 26.
  • Time Constraints: Apologists claim Joseph could not have dictated the book in ~85 days. However, Mike calculates that at a standard dictation speed (1,200 words/hour), Joseph would only need to work about 2 hours and 40 minutes a day to finish the book in that timeframe 27.
  • Joseph’s Capability: While the Church portrays Joseph as uneducated, his mother Lucy Mack Smith wrote that he had been telling detailed stories about ancient American inhabitants for years before the translation began, serving as a "dress rehearsal" for the book 28.

    • Conclusion

    The episode concludes that the "translation" was actually an oral dictation that relied on Joseph Smith's background in storytelling, the Bible (King James Version), and 19th-century folk magic 29, 30. The hosts argue that the Church's continued use of misleading art and narratives amounts to deception 31, 32.

    Episode Info

    Guests: Mike (LDS Discussions), Jenn

    Related Article: LDS Discussions