Episode 2

Golden Plates and the Book of Mormon

Original Air Date: 2022-04-28

Golden PlatesBook of Mormon

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Video Summary: Golden Plates and the Book of MormonSeries: LDS Discussions, Episode 02 (Mormon Stories Podcast Ep. 1583)Hosts: John Dehlin, Mike (LDS Discussions), Nemo the MormonDate: April 27, 2022

IntroductionThis episode is the second in a series regarding Mormon truth claims, specifically focusing on the origins of the Golden Plates. The discussion contrasts the official 1838 history of the Church with contemporary historical accounts, arguing that the narrative of the plates is a direct evolution of Joseph Smith’s background in treasure digging and folk magic 1-3.

  • 1. The Foundation in Treasure DiggingThe hosts argue that the story of the Golden Plates cannot be separated from the context of 19th-century treasure digging.
  • The Equinox: Joseph Smith’s annual visits to the hill occurred on September 22nd, the autumn equinox. In folk magic, this date was believed to be the time when spirits were most active and treasure was most accessible 4, 5.
  • The Guardian Spirit: Early accounts (1823) describe a "treasure guardian" who shocks Joseph and prevents him from taking the plates because of his greed/improper motives. This figure was later retrofitted in the 1838 history to become the Angel Moroni delivering a religious test 4, 6, 7.
  • Control of Narrative: The hosts posit that the "supernatural" claims fall apart when Joseph Smith loses control of the environment. The narrative shifts from physical treasure hunting to a religious restoration as a way to maintain authority when physical treasure could not be produced 8, 9.
  • 2. The Evolution of the "Right Person" RequirementA significant portion of the discussion analyzes the changing commandments regarding who Joseph must bring to the hill to obtain the treasure.
  • 1823 Attempt: Joseph attempts to take the plates alone but is shocked by an invisible power. He is forbidden from taking them because he laid them down to look for other items in the box 6, 7.
  • 1824 Attempt (The Alvin Problem): The spirit commands Joseph to return the following year with the "right person," identified as his eldest brother, Alvin. However, Alvin dies in November 1823, shortly after this command 10, 11.
  • Exhumation Rumors: Following Alvin's death, rumors circulated that his body had been exhumed. Joseph Smith Sr. placed a newspaper notice denying he had dissected the body but admitted to inspecting the grave. The hosts argue this implies the family may have exhumed Alvin to bring a part of his body to the hill to satisfy the magical requirement 12, 13.
  • 1827 Attempt: By 1827, Joseph claims his seer stone revealed that Emma Hale (his wife) was now the "right person" to bring 14.
  • 3. Samuel Lawrence and the SpectaclesThe video details how rival treasure digger Samuel Lawrence influenced the content of the Golden Plates narrative.
  • Rival Seer: Samuel Lawrence, a known seer, accompanied Joseph to the hill. To prevent Lawrence from claiming he saw the treasure first, Joseph had to agree with Lawrence’s claim that "spectacles" were with the plates 15, 16.
  • Loss of Control: This is described as an instance where Joseph lost control of the narrative and had to incorporate Lawrence’s invention (the spectacles) into the official story to maintain his status as the superior seer 17.
  • Anachronism: The hosts note that the inclusion of spectacles is anachronistic, as wearable spectacles were not invented until the 13th century, centuries after the Book of Mormon timeframe 18.

    • 4. Improbabilities in the 1827 Retrieval NarrativeThe hosts analyze logical and physical inconsistencies in the account of Joseph finally obtaining the plates in 1827.

  • Emma’s Role: Despite being the "right person" required by the angel, Emma was left in the wagon with her back turned while Joseph retrieved the plates. She never saw them, which contradicts the necessity of her presence 19, 20.
  • The Hollow Log: After retrieving the plates, Joseph claims to have hidden them in a hollow log in the woods rather than bringing them home. The hosts argue this is reckless behavior for an object of such immense religious and monetary value 21, 22.
  • Remote Viewing: When Emma warns Joseph that treasure diggers are searching the hill, Joseph uses his seer stone to "see" that the plates are safe in the log without physically checking on them. This creates a "magic mirror" scenario that defies logic 23, 24.

    • 5. The Run Home and Physical FeatsThe account of Joseph bringing the plates home is scrutinized for physical impossibility.

  • The Physical Feat: Joseph claims to have run approximately 3 miles carrying plates weighing 40-60 pounds while fighting off three separate attackers and dislocating his thumb.
  • Physical Limitations: Joseph had a limp from a childhood leg surgery. The hosts argue that running that distance with that weight, while engaging in "John Wick" style combat, is physically impossible 25, 26.
  • The Thumb Injury: Mike suggests the dislocated thumb was likely a real injury sustained not from a fight, but from the physical effort of bending metal rods (d-rings) to craft a fake set of plates 27, 28.

    • 6. The "Pyrgi Tablets" and the Math ProblemThe video debunks a common apologetic argument involving the Pyrgi Tablets (ancient gold plates found in Italy) used to support the plausibility of the Book of Mormon.

  • Volume vs. Content: The Pyrgi Tablets consist of three plates but contain only about 200 words. The Book of Mormon contains over 270,000 words 29, 30.
  • The Math: Based on the density of writing on the Pyrgi Tablets, the Book of Mormon would require approximately 6,750 gold plates to contain the full text. This would result in a stack of metal impossibly heavy to carry 31.
  • Conclusion: The mathematical impossibility suggests the plates could not have existed as described, or the "Reformed Egyptian" language would need to be impossibly efficient (entire chapters represented by single characters) 32, 33.

    • ConclusionThe episode concludes that the most plausible explanation is that Joseph Smith fabricated a set of prop plates (likely using tin or lead) to satisfy the demands of his family and followers, who expected a material result from his years of treasure digging. The entire narrative is viewed as a continuation of 19th-century folk magic rather than ancient history 3, 34.

    Episode Info

    Guests: Mike (LDS Discussions), Nemo the Mormon

    Related Article: LDS Discussions