Russell M. Nelson's Miracle Stories
Original Air Date: 2023-11-03
This video, Episode 47 of the "LDS Discussions" series on the Mormon Stories Podcast, features host John Dehlin, Mike from LDS Discussions, Radio Free Mormon (RFM), and Nemo the Mormon 1-3. The discussion focuses on scrutinizing the honesty and integrity of Russell M. Nelson, the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, by analyzing four specific "miracle stories" he has shared over the years 1, 4.
The central thesis of the episode is that President Nelson displays a pattern of "gilding the lily"—taking mundane or ordinary events and fabricating miraculous details to elevate his own status as a chosen prophet and to promote faith among members 5, 6.
Here is a detailed summary of the four stories analyzed in the video:
President Nelson has told a story about baptizing a woman named Beverly Ashcraft. In his version, years after baptizing her, he saw a woman in a large hat at a stake conference in Tennessee, felt a divine prompting to call her to the pulpit, and discovered it was Beverly 7. He claims she had a dream two nights prior involving Elder Maxwell (who was originally scheduled to speak) telling her to prepare a list of the 80 people converted through her lineage 8.
The Discrepancy:The podcast reveals that this story was included in a draft of Nelson’s biography, Insights from a Prophet's Life, but was removed before final printing because Beverly’s family intervened 9, 10. Beverly's daughter and granddaughter contacted the publisher to state that the miraculous elements were false: Beverly never wore hats, there was no dream, no prepared list, and no prompting was necessary as Nelson knew she was in attendance 11. Furthermore, contrary to Nelson's claim that he met her in Korea as a nurse, she was never a nurse and never lived in Korea 12.
In 2009, while visiting Maputo, Mozambique, Russell and Wendy Nelson were dining at the mission president's home when they were robbed.
The Discrepancy:The hosts point out that the story grew from a frightening but standard robbery into an assassination and kidnapping attempt where divine intervention stopped a gun from firing—details absent from and contradicted by the contemporaneous reports from the victims who were there 17, 18.
Nelson frequently tells a story of a flight from Salt Lake City to St. George in 1976. He claims an engine exploded, spewing oil and catching fire, causing the plane to spiral dive toward the earth 19, 20. He contrasts his own calm demeanor (prepared to meet his ancestors) with a hysterical woman screaming across the aisle 20. He claims the pilot miraculously extinguished the fire by diving and then restarted the other engine to land in a farmer's field 21, 22.
The Discrepancy:Using Civil Aeronautics Board (now NTSB) records from November 11, 1976, the hosts show the actual event was a "precautionary landing" at Delta, Utah, airport due to a "rough engine" 23. The official report states there was "no damage to aircraft" and "no injuries," contradicting the claims of an explosion, fire, and a death spiral 24. The hosts argue that Nelson turned a minor mechanical issue into a near-death miracle to showcase his spiritual superiority 25, 26.
4. The November 2015 Policy Revelation
In January 2016, Nelson declared that the controversial November 2015 policy (which excluded children of same-sex couples from baptism) was a revelation received by President Thomas S. Monson 27. Nelson described a process where the apostles "met repeatedly in the temple," "fasted and prayed," and considered "countless permutations" before the Lord inspired Monson 28.
The Discrepancy:The hosts cite insider accounts (specifically from Tom Christofferson via Greg Prince) indicating the policy was likely a reaction to the legalization of same-sex marriage and was pushed through in a rush 29. The account suggests the policy was presented to the Quorum of the Twelve for an "up and down vote without debate," rather than the lengthy, wrestled-with revelatory process Nelson described 30, 31. Additionally, it was noted that President Monson was suffering from dementia at the time, making Nelson's depiction of Monson receiving clear revelation suspect 29, 32.
Conclusion and Key Insights
The participants conclude that these stories demonstrate a willingness by the current prophet to fabricate details to create faith-promoting narratives 6.
The discussion ends with the suggestion that this pattern of dishonesty is not just a personal failing but a systemic issue within Church leadership, comparing Nelson’s storytelling to the fabrications of early church history under Joseph Smith 38, 39.
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hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon stories podcast I am your host for today John delin it is May 18th 2023 we are here in the midst of our uh epic LDS discussion Series where we do our best to analyze scrutinize LDS church truth claims as neutrally and as dispassionately and as objectively as possible today we are on episode 47 of this series we are going to be talking about uh Mormon president and Prophet Russell M Nelson his Miracle stories I guess I guess the truth claim we're talking about here is the Mormon Church uh claims to have God's mouthpiece on the earth uh a prophet s and Revelator who communicates in a privileged way with heavenly father and with his son Jesus Christ a special witness of Christ and I guess that would mean that you would expect a base level of honesty and integrity with that person and um Mike and a few of our guests uh have uncovered some information about Russell M Nelson that they feel potentially calls his um honesty or Integrity in a question and so that is what today's episode is going to be about um we want to remind you all that this LDS discussion series again is now 47 episodes long it builds on past episodes so the best thing you can do is pause this episode go back start at episode number one and watch it all the way through in sequence uh you can um consume this series on on multiple channels on Spotify LDS discussions has its own podcast feed both in audio and video format Apple podcast has it as well in audio format and then the Mormon stories podcast um YouTube channel has a playlist where you can watch these episodes in sequence and of course this is all integrated into the Mormon stories podcast uh General feed now the the basis of all of this series is uh a series of essays written by our dear friend Mike uh from the website LDS discussions. comom and we welcome him back now to the program hey Mike thanks for joining us hey everybody it's good to be back again you excited for today I I actually am excited this one is you know we've done an episode like say when you talk about watching these in order uh the episode on the first Vision the priesthood restoration both give you a lot of examples of how a miracle story can grow but if you've been watching the recent episodes um we did the one on the Transfiguration of Brigham Young and I think that's the most important episode to understanding how a miracle can grow from an ordinary event into something else when it doesn't really happen um but it's accepted by followers of a religion or of any movement as true because it's just told enough and so those episodes are going to feed into this one as kind of a good foundation to understand how it is that these Miracle stories we can now show because of the fact that this is a something that's happened over the last couple decades um has no basis in reality what what Nelson is going to tell us in these stories we could show by looking at the accounts um the earlier accounts and from uh those who were there they simp did not happen and so that lets you it gives you a window into how leaders of religious movements especially those who really feel the need to elevate themselves as the chosen one of God um will stretch the truth in different ways in order to accomplish that and um obviously um just like with some of our earlier episodes this work is I mean I didn't uncover any of this this was uncovered by other people and more importantly um Radio free Mormon had done a podcast a couple years ago and when I heard that my first thought was I've got to get this down on the website because it's really important within the scope of what I'm trying to do with this overview project um in order to kind of show that not only did it happen in the early parts of the church but it's happening today by the current prophet of the Mormon church as well well wouldn't it be nice if we could get rfm on the podcast that was my hope too I mean he said he wasn't available but man that would be crazy if he just popped in oh wait we have him on the podcast Radio free Mormon welcome to Mormon stories podcast we're so glad you're here did someone mention one chosen of God no I was just uh reading this fascinating autobiography by Russell Nelson of himself from heart tohe heart and I was looking over the forward which was definitely written by President Spencer W Kimble oh that's lovely rfm thanks so much for joining us and and rfm we're bringing you on because you you have done some of the research on on this episode is that right do you want to give us just a a tiny bit of background yeah it's section 84 of Radio free actually episode 84 and I look back when I had done this and I did some the research and you know Russell Nelson has this amazing Pinchin for gilding the Lily and taking pedestrian occurrences in imbuing them with miraculous natures and that's what we're going to go over tonight I was surprised to find out it wasn't just a couple years ago it was actually June of four years ago 200 19 so that this episode released which was 84 the miracle making of President Nelson I'm so honored and flattered and thankful that you had asked me to come on the show today and I'll just try and be color commentary and I'll just say please donate to Radio free Mormon podcast at radiofree mormon. comom please support Mormonism live.org org radiofree mormon.org uh donate there become a monthly donor also check out Mormonism live every Wednesday night Utah time 6:20 PM uh and support that good show as well along with with the good bill real who is this who is this good-looking bloke in the right lower corner who apparently modified my name to put Brave s Robin under Radio free Mormon I know n the Mormon it's Nemo the Mormon who are you looking for welcome Nemo it's it's good to have you Nemo and check out Nemo the Mormons check out Nemo the Mormon YouTube channel as well subscribe to that and Mormonism live and Mike let's get going yeah let's jump in all right should we go to the first slide yeah let's just jump right in I'll just say it's a kind of a serious thing to accuse anyone of being a liar and it's Ultra serious I guess to accuse the prophet s and Revelator of a global religion accusing him of being a liar do we want to address that up front I've done it to his face and you know that's but but I mean in all seriousness a believing Mormon is going to hear this and say this is really serious can anyone kind of in seriousness talk about why we would even want to go here that's why I'm not saying I'm not alleging that he a li talk about gilding the Lily and as as as serious as it might been to question the veracity of the prophet of God um I look at it kind of the other way and if you're the prophet of God maybe you have I don't know a little bit of a duty to be honest yeah okay well I was going to go in and say you know I I did I did this whole thing where I looked at their honesty and I confronted them directly all by email and and and that sort of thing and and it is serious and it does make you kind of stop and think am I really going to say this but it's very important because they claim to speak for God and so when they're speaking uh in a capacity where you would expect they would be speaking on God's behalf you absolutely have the right to expect that they be honest and if they're not being honest that needs to be pointed out yeah I think that's fair especially since they claim that you should obey them because of their access to God and Jesus so all right Mike let's jump to uh let's jump to the first slide today's episode is called Russ M Nelson's Miracle stories take it away Mike yeah and just as I mentioned earlier in previous episodes we've covered how almost every miraculous foundational story from early church history has later been proven to be like a late edition um a fabrication um an evolution of of another story and so if you look at Joseph Smith and you look you could track the evolution of the first vision and the priet restoration and you could see in both stories that details are retro fitted back into the church's history years after they were claimed to have happened um with a lot of changes and additions taking place in the process and if you haven't watched those episodes please go back and do that because they're very important to kind of understanding that this is something that's been going on from the beginning and we covered as I mentioned in the Transfiguration of briam young um which is the story I was told was the reason that members of the church knew that briam young was the rightful successor as as Prophet to Joseph Smith and the more you know you dig into the Transfiguration um it's just like Joseph Smith's Miracles and that not a single contemporary Source mentions this happening until almost a decade later and the story is completely retrofitted back into the church's history as a miracle Witness by many um even as all of the contemporaneous accounts make absolutely no mention of it happening and so just as early church leaders created these Miracle stories to kind of establish their Authority as the chosen you know prophets of God um the current prophet of the church Russell Nelson has now been caught fabricating or exaggerating at least four of his Miracle stories and in this episode we want to highlight um all of those stories because we want to show that this is a pattern um from leaders who claim to speak for God that they're willing to embellish or outright make up stories um or at least make up miraculous details in the stories as a way to establish their credibility among Believers and to elevate their own status and the name and voice of God and uh tie that a bit into our episode on spiritual Witnesses because when we hear these stories you feel the spirit right and then you find out later that those stories didn't happen that way and that has to make you question what exactly you're feeling if you're getting a spiritual witness on a story that that didn't happen as it's being told okay and and uh rfm and Nemo I don't want to have to ask you each slide whether you want to contribute so I'm just going to ask you y'all to unmute and I'll know then that you want to say something so rfm you just I just unmuted for no particular reason but I will say that uh in the sealed portion of the book of I understand that there is a passage that says the Holy Ghost does bear witness to untruth oh okay that explains it kind of all right do you want to explain it citation needed yeah uh this would fall under the heading of sarcasm John okay got it I'll mute myself now oh that's good okay let's go to the next slide Mike yeah so to me this is this is this the first one is this the first one this is the first story and I think this is the one that really sets a table for everything else and so this is a story and it's known uh I believe rfm coined the the uh term for it is the woman in the Hat I believe uh from his podcast and so this is a story that was told by Russell Nelson in multiple settings and hey Mike hey Mike rfm wants to say something oh shoot I did it again I'm I'm so sorry okay look I got to do a totally different pattern than I do on Mormonism live because there I accidentally mute myself all over the place now I'm going to intentionally mute myself sorry about this you know what Ram it's okay don't worry about muting or unmuting just speak up when you want to say something right okay really good thank you yeah okay keep going Mike keep going yeah and so uh if you go back to the slide this is a story that he told and what ended up happening is that the church is going to release an excerpt from a AO an autobiography or biography um that is written about Russell Nelson by Sher du um once he became prophet and it's called insights from a prophet's life president Russell M Nelson and so this excerpt is titled you didn't read it did you and it's Nelson telling the story about when he was in Korea on active duty and he meets a nurse named Beverly and this is from the excerpt uh I don't know if Nemo if you want to read this for us sure one moment okay young Lieutenant Nelson performed many operations in less than optimal conditions one day a nurse named Beverly Ashcraft approached him at the end of an operation in which she had assisted him what makes you different from all the other surgeons I work with she asked likely assuming that he would have a straightforward answer Dr Nelson thought for a moment and responded much differently than she expected well I don't know that I'm different but if I am it's because I know the Book of Mormon is true Not only was Beverly not expecting that answer she was not impressed with it it was only out of a sense of Duty that she accepted Dr Nelson's offer to borrow the one and only copy of the Book of Mormon he had at the time her husband Derwin was a fellow surgeon and a few days later he returned the book tossed it to Russell and muttered a feeble thanks that is a totally inappropriate answer for someone who who has read the book of Mormon Lieutenant Nelson responded you didn't read it did you I'm asking you and Beverly to read it and when you have then I want my book back the Ashcraft did read the book and over a period of time Lieutenant Nelson taught them the gospel in 1951 he baptized them and then he lost track of the ash crafts why are you laughing Nemo say it so much of this is just implausible and leaves out so many of the details involved in any of this type of encounter um and it's convenient that he lost track of the Ashcraft because then no one can go find the Ashcraft to verify whether this ever happened all right rfm I saw you giggling anything you want to add no it's just uh almost like uh president Nelson dated them dunked them and dropped them yeah yeah that's the only purpose really is to get them converted baptize them and then you lose track of look I shouldn't say that because they're over there in the Korean War it's a mass unit it's 1951 and I've certainly lost track of pretty much everybody I was with on my mission for two years and that was in 79 to um 81 apart from KY McKay yes didn't lose track of him who I am hoping by the way um do you want to talk about your prediction Nemo that there's going to be an apostle go ahead I've already made this prediction I think an apostle will be down an apostle by the next conference and so we'll have to um we'll have to see whether uh brother Corbit Elder Corbett ends up as the first African-American Apostle in the church yes and I'm hoping for two Apostles to um bite the dust so that Kyle my former missionary companion can become an apostle because I'm getting tired of saying that my former missionary companion is the church historian I want him to be an apostle why are we why are we pining for the demise of of Mormon apostles here no I'm just being silly um no pining just predictions they're quite elderly because in the LDS church progress occurs one Death at a time oh man we're we're we're jumping off the track of of our you knew the danger when you had me on I apologize I'll go back to M we knew who you were when we picked you up rfm um uh okay so going back to this uh this story I'm just GNA say if I've got a surgeon who's a Muslim I don't know that I feel better if he says you know if if I'm a if I'm a great surgeon it's because of my belief in the Quran because I I have anything against belief and not because I have anything against the Quran I just don't know that it's professional for a physician to be claiming that their skill is tied to their belief in a religious book does anybody is anybody just B just kind of faced face value bothered by the story yeah because he didn't need to bring that into it you know and and and it's there's no connection to it what makes him different to the other surgeons it's not his belief in the book of moment and that's not what she would have been observing it's him trying to shoehorn it into the conversation yeah I mean this reads like a conversation that you would write if you're trying to almost do like a exaggerated caricature of something you know like it this just doesn't read like a natural conversation like I can't picture um you know first of all she she wasn't a nurse um and that's another issue with the story is that he refers to as a nurse but in his earlier telling she's not a nurse so that's an issue but regardless if someone came up to me I can't picture them being like what makes you so awesome and I'd be like well now that you mention it it just feels like a really narcissistic kind of comment and that's why when I when you read that you kind of like giggle because it's like you know if someone came up to me and they're like what makes you so great I I noticed somebody that's just so great I would not write a go and write a book that's like you would not believe this but people fellow people in my profession are coming up to me and being like what makes you so awesome and he's doing this because he's trying to make himself uh separate from everyone else in the world this is uh one of those things where you're like the the people the members of the Mormon church have that that light right that light in their eyes that other people notice and that's what this is about and so it doesn't read to me like a real conversation and if it if it is a real conversation that makes Nelson look even worse because it's almost like not even it's not even a humble brag it's just a brag in in his in his biography it just kind of comes off weird yeah and isn't the question uh that she apparently or allegedly says to him what makes you so different yeah different from question yeah yeah wouldn't it be kind of funny if she actually thought he was kind of a dick and that's why she's asking the question and then he goes yeah it's because I have a believe in the Book of Mormon she's like well that tracks cuz the rest of the story makes him sound like kind of a dick it does the rest of the story does I mean that's the thing it's like again imagine a missionary you go to a missionary and you do the first discussion they come back for the second you hand them the book you're like you know what I'm good and they just Chuck it back on the table like you didn't read it it's like nobody would do that this is who in the world we we need to put a viewer discretion warning on this because I feel like all sense of neutrality and I'm canceling our disclaimer for viewers and listeners if you want an objective attempt at analyzing truth claims just skip this episode because rfm brings out the West in all of us no I mean I honestly I think it's my gift to the spirit it's objective though to be like what kind of person would throw the book of Morman back at them and say you didn't read it like that doesn't make sense and if someone did that to me I'd be like well you dude like I'm done like I was already done and now I'm like really done not just with the Book of Mormon but with you because that's how rude is that it reminds me of the say the good news is it's never really even happened anyway yeah exactly so he he's just you know it's a madeup story in which he is portrayed as a dick it reminds me of the character in The Simpsons is it Ralph it's like I read the book of Mormon you know I mean does he want if Mitt Romney's in the Senate and somebody says how where do you get your skill to be a senator and is Mitt Romney supposed to say to his Federal Senators it's because I read the book of Mormon well he yes he is meant to according to Russell M Nelson that is what he should do I know and when I read this story I know it's an aash unit in Korea and I got to tell you I'm getting a distinct Frank VI Frank Burns kind of vibe from this story that's a that's a boomer reference rfm you're you're a boomer did not get that one at all sorry all right Mike let's go the next slide yeah and so basically as we talk about this couple is baptized um which brings us to the rest of this excerpt where Nelson who's now an apostle is giving a talk at a state conference in Tennessee and during the S Sunday morning session of of the conference Elder Nelson says he was drawn to a woman wearing a large hat and sitting on the left hand side of the chapel he asked the State president who she was this the president the State president didn't know but he managed to learn that her name was Beverly zitting when elder Nelson went to the pulpit he felt prompted keep that in mind prompted to call this young woman to join him how long have you been a member of the church he asked her with the congregation looking on 30 years she responded and who baptized you he then asked after a brief brief pause she answered you did in 1951 and then you know Russell Nelson says what is your name again and she explained that when elder Nelson had baptized her her name had been Beverly Ashcraft and her husband's named Derwin after he died she had remarried and now had now she had a large family who were active in the church Beverly how many people connected with you have come into the church since I baptized you Elder Nelson asked you won't believe this she told him in the congregation but two nights ago I had a dream that Elder Maxwell and just as a quick side note Elder Maxwell was supposed to give the talk and at the last second they subbed in um Elder Nelson to give the talk so she says two nights ago I had a dream that Elder Maxwell would ask me that very question so she had come prepared and she pulled out of her purse a paper with the names of all the people who had come into the church as a result of her baptism the number was 80 well this sounds like a Bonafide Miracle that's that's like this is like a Transfiguration of briam young style Miracle this is a huge one why are you nodding why are you shaking your head no because rfm likes magic and he'll know that when you get up on stage and you pull someone on stage and go now we've never met before have we then they are absolutely a plant so to my cynical mind at worst this is a woman who has planted the audience to create a faith story or it just didn't happen because also it's really difficult to measure causality because he's going to ask her to measure the causality of her joining the church in terms of the influence it had on other people join the church she can't accurately put a number on that she can list her progeny but apart from that she can't really it's very difficult to track that kind of causality sorry rfm unmute yourself rfm unmute yourself you see there we go that's why I do it okay it's obviously not a true Miracle even in this highly embellished account because her dream was of Elder Max Maxwell a true dream would have had it be Elder Nelson in spite of the fact that it was supposed to and then she would have said and I didn't know why I was having a dream of Elder Nelson cuz Elder Maxwell was meant to be speaking but yeah I just did yeah good point you know this woman's having dreams about Elder Maxwell president Nelson is drawn to this woman in the large hat there's a lot of sexual undertones going on in this story I don't know about that but yeah it's certainly uh yeah it's an absurd setup so so uh does go you want to we go to the next slide Mike yeah let's just jump into the next one and so this is the problem with making up Miracle stories we talked about this with the Transfiguration of briam young um when this excerpt was released the truth and transparency Foundation was contacted by the daughter and granddaughter of Beverly and Derwin and this is the problem Nelson actually told this story in 1984 and he also told it in his biography on at the time lds.org in these retellings there is no mention of Korea there's no mention of Beverly being a nurse or a serendipitous encounter at a state conference in Tennessee so all of those miraculous elements were not in Nelson's earlier tellings of the story and the reason is that none of these miraculous elements happened according to Beverly's daughter and granddaughter Leslie and Katie Beverly was never a nurse she never lived in Korea and she didn't know Nelson until her husband introduced her to him so that whole idea of her saying what sets you apart what makes you a better surgeon it couldn't happened because she wasn't a nurse like when I say that conversation seems made up it's because it was and you know more damning to Nelson's story is that Leslie and Katie were involved in the state conference meeting in Tennessee and have directly refuted every miraculous element of Nelson's retelling of the story from his biography and so this is from the article from the truth and transparency um Foundation about the excerpt there was an encounter in the 1980s at a state conference shortly after Nelson was called to be an apostle he traveled to Knoxville to speak at the conference Leslie and Katie were both living with Beverly in Knoxville at the time when they heard Nelson was coming to town they made sure to attend that makes sense they remember that Nelson was aware of who Beverly was and knew she was in attendance he did call her up to the podium during his talk and told everyone about her baptism story and about how there are many members at the church today as a result of her conversion there was no dream the night before there was not a prepared note in her purse and there was no confusion on the part of Nelson as to who she was Katie adds that her grandmother has never worn a hat to church and did not have a hat on that day so every single miraculous part of this was made up and we know that because the daughter and the granddaughter had to contact desire a book it'd be like stop the presses literally because this is all made up and they did they were already printing the book they had to stop printing the book to get the story out because it's so completely made up busted this is how you know that President Nelson is a true Prophet because God intervene to help him not get caught in this absurd lie of his that's a way you could look at it also I mean the question that immediately comes to my mind is what was the membership standing of bever and lesie at the time they were reached out to because people might try to say they were just angry X Mormons who were trying to undermine his story Etc yeah for what it's worth they said um in the article at the truth and transparency they talked about how much the family reved Nelson how much they loved him and they actually said the reason that they contacted desert of book is because they didn't want to have to basically lie about it when people talk to him about it because apparently someone had contacted them after the excerpt on LDS living and they read it and said uh that's not right and then when they contacted they got it so there is no appearance that there's any animosity and there's no appearance that they left the church and or if they did they certainly didn't mention it or have any you know there's no indication there's illing Point worth addressing no it is and it's a good one yeah and Beverly who was still around at the time that this all broke open apparently so she was put in this position this very uncomfortable position of the guy who baptized her which I think they met at Walter Reed not in Korea but the guy who baptized her he did baptize her and her husband he becomes an apostle that's huge but now people are reading the story and coming up to her and saying wow this is an incredible Miracle story that happened at that Stak Center and everything and she's put in the uncomfortable position of either having to go along with a story that she knows is false or be in her mind maybe um backstabbing president Nelson by setting the record straight so the daughter and granddaughter wanted to set the record straight on her behalf so she wasn't put in that position the other thing I wanted to say Sheri do is writing this book right she didn't get this out of whole cloth I don't presume that she's making this up she got the story from president Nelson she's writing his autobiography and I am also equally assur that before it was being published all of the proofs in the gys had gone to president Nelson for review to sign off on so it had his imprimer of approval before it began to be published so I don't think there's an easy way of for him to get out of this one no I don't either and the one that really sticks out to me is that Nelson is using the direct idea that he got a prompting from God to call Beverly up so here we have an apostle of the church now a prophet of the church who is saying that he received a prompting from God to call the woman up because he saw her with a hat we know he's I'm going to say he's lying about it so we have a of the Mormon church on record lying about receiving a prompting from God and that is where you got to go if he's willing to lie about saying God told him to call this woman up to join him then you have to then look at all the other things he says where I got an impression or I got a prompting and you have to now view it through the lens of he's already been proven to make up these promptings in order to elevate himself this story benefits Russell Nelson over everyone else this is a story about saying I am someone that God favors because he is going to give me the special prompting he's going to send a woman with a hat to this meeting that I'm going to give that that God's going to give a special dream to two nights earlier and all of it's made up and so when you have the prophet of the church who's willing to lie about details directly from God that's a problem and I know as you said earlier in the episode um that saying the word liar is is rough but in this case I don't know how else you would frame it when you're directly adding to a story that you would told before without these details and then you add in details that are demonstrably not true from the family involved itself that that's I mean how else would you call it besides saying he lied I would say he told a story that was not consistent with the facts yes that's why you're a lawyer and not me I mean Devil's Advocate You could argue that he wants the members to Bear testimony of the Book of Mormon that'll benefit the lives of the members because you gain a testimony by bearing it and it'll help promote the church and uh you know because of all the members are bearing testimony of their love for the Book of Mormon to the world so you could argue that he feels like this story is going to benefit the church and the members you could but he's still lying to do it I mean like however you want to do it it's like the what's that phrase there's many ways to skin a cat which is a horrible phrase but I know that's a phrase it's like you could you could Pro promote faith in the Book of Mormon without making up a story and again it's one thing to make up a story obviously that's bad but you make up a story where you're lying about spiritual promptings from God and you're basically lying about a Visionary experience that this woman would have had two nights earlier to write down on a piece of paper the number of people she brought in the church so not only is he making himself a liar by saying that he received this prompting he's making Beverly Ashcraft a liar by putting into her mouth that she received a basically a vision and a dream to write down um how many people came into the church because of her baptism and so I mean I think again you you could promote faith without lying and that's really something as we've done in our previous episodes the church doesn't do Joseph Smith could have promoted faith in the in in himself um as the prophet of The Church Without creating um Peter James and John and retrofitting it into the Revelation on the priesthood or he could have done it without constantly changing the first vision and making a grander and grander but he doesn't because as we've done with these episodes the the grander the miracle the more uh basically it look makes you look better and as I said the story is not about I mean it might be about promoting The Book of Mormon but this is a book about promoting Russell Nelson that's why it's an autobiography about his life especially coming out as he's becoming prophet and you want all the members to look at you with you know those big you know fawning eyes and um and rever him as okay something you can't be yourself okay so and let me just make sure I understand so this this story was intended for a biography and it made it into the biography or it was removed last minute which one it was in the biography yeah it was in there and was removed as it was printing it was removed an excerpt they published an excerpt that LDS living as a promo yeah for the book so they have the story as a promo read this great chapter this wonderful story so you'll buy the book and that's how the cat got out of the bag and God saved president Nelson so so ultimately they didn't end up in the final printing of the book including this false story correct right because they they stopped the printing and then reprinted without it okay so as scorekeeper here uh I think it's I think it's LDS discussions one Russell and Nelson zero because uh his own family members deny that this story happened and I would take I don't know rfm if this is legally legit but I would take them removing the story as as ample evidence that they they must have acknowledged that at least it was problematic if not outright false it's a tacit admission right yeah yeah and just to make it clear it wasn't his family members it was Beverly's family members what did I say did I say I thought you said his family members yeah it just her her family members thank you all right all right so so uh LDS discussions one uh Russell M Nelson zero let's go to the next uh story yeah and just for the record I can't take the point because other people did this research but yeah either way um Russell Nelson's miracle in mosm Beek and this one is all from Radio free Mormon's podcast so um this yeah this this this is a good podcast it's going to cover in a lot more detail what we're going to do today so if you've never listened check that one out he says episode 84 right yes epode episod 884 thank you if you have not listened to it you need to listen to it cuz it's got a lot more detail that we're going to cover today and um so this is the second one and this is uh basically a claimed assassination attempt on Russell M Nelson in mosm Beek and as I said this was from uh the great Radio free Mormon podcast and this is happening in May of 2009 um Russell and Wendy are visiting the mission president in mosm Beque when they were the victims of an armed robbery while eating dinner and so we can look at the official Church statement right from when it happened and they say on Friday evening they were having dinner together in the mission president's home when armed as salant entered the home and Rob them we don't have complete information yet but we understand that sister Packard's arm was broken in addition she and others suffered some superficial injuries mainly cuts and bruises Elder and sister Nelson will continue their assignment over the weekend as planned so if you read the initial statement it's clear that a robbery did occur um that Cindy P Packard suffered a broken arm during the attack um but just as with the the the earlier story about the woman in the Hat this Story begins with an event that absolutely did happen to some degree but is going to grow grander as it's retold by the Nelsons okay so I don't know if anyone has anything to add but we can jump to the next slide if not but yeah there's no there's no incident so so mundane that President Nelson can't make it into a miracle yeah pretty much or Wendy but yeah indeed yeah we can move on to the next slide here we go so this um there's a a KSL article that has the church's statement um and they also state that the missionaries in the area were warned to be careful in the area and they say that former missionaries to mosm Beek who we talked to with Saturday tell us they were warned to always be cautious and told about the dangers of life in the African nation Austin Hill served a Latter-Day St mission in mosm Beek in 2002 and 2003 he says the people are very friendly the mission home before the current one got broken into and the church employed guards were there all day one of three guards they employed had orchestrated the whole thing Hill said when you hear of something happening in the neighborhood as you're there it's usually with a machete and so we're not trying to take away from the the attack and the armed robbery in any way uh obviously it's awful that Cindy Packard was harmed and that her arm was broken and I think in my opinion and rfm made this point in this podcast she was the hero because she recognized the robber robbery quickly and she was running outside to get help she was the only one who could speak the other language um uh I don't know language they speak there but she could speak it and um Portuguese Portuguese okay cool and so Blair and Cindy Packard released their own statement and this is this is really important four armed gunmen overpowered our one guard we were threatened verbally and physically Cindy was roughed up but finally did get away to warn other guards and neighbors who came to our assistance she suffered a fracture in her left elbow other bruises and skin knees Elder Nelson was accosted as well but is fine with minimal inj injury and then during the statement they say Elder and sister Nelson were not specifically targeted or that this was in any way an act against the church so this is the mission president and his wife and again I want to read this line Elder and sister Nelson were not specifically targeted or that this was any act against the church and that's very important because as you're going to see the Nelsons did not get that memo no they did not get that memo at all yeah okay so next slide just jump right in so Wendy Nelson and if you remember we did an episode uh on Revelation and Wendy Nelson was was very happy to say that um Russell Nelson since he became profet became unleash she was free to do all the things he wanted to do she's very happy to speak about um the life of a prophet's wife and I'll leave it at that but what I want to say is um the mission president as we said uh said that they were not targeted and so I want you to remember this because just a few months later Wendy Nelson is going to give a talk at a timeout for women event in Utah and this is part of her talk from a November 20 uh 2009 conference she says the four armed robbers had one intention to harm my husband and to make me to take me hostage so in just a few months we've gone from the mission president and his wife saying that they were not specifically targeted this was not an act against the church to Wendy Nelson turning this robbery into a kidnapping attempt even though the mission president said that was not what happened and so Wendy then of course you never Wast never waste a crisis is going to use this incident to teach that the four armed men didn't barge into the home but casually entered almost unnoticed exactly like the adversary does because every good Miracle story needs to be tied back to a lesson for church members to follow uh basically to keep them afraid that Satan's always lurking behind the the corner and um you know finally well Wendy elevates herself by stating that just before that man walked in an intense beautiful peace Came Upon me which again is a really similar tactic to what Russell Nelson does with his other stories But the irony is that if if Wendy Nelson uh felt this this piece because she knew something bad was about to happen it's interesting that she didn't bother to warn the other people at the dinner so that they could be better prepared for the impending harm I just I find that really interesting that she again is is she's elevating herself here to say that she got this beautiful piece knowing something was about to go down and yet there's no record of her bothering to tell anyone else about it yeah that was the Holy Ghost fault actually he hit the piece button instead of the spidey sense button yeah probably yep it can happen they're right next to each other on the console yeah yeah apparently but isn't it interesting how she takes this and and again I think this points to the idea of what the motive is what the drive is and I think this goes back to something I said in the last episode but the idea that because she wants to promote Faith because she wants to teach a story about Satan she feels justified in taking this event that did happen to her and adjusting the details of it so that it fits that narrative and it's it's the problem it's the same problem with with LDS lawyers being the church historian because lawyers serve a party they serve a motive they serve a client and the client that the LDS church historian serves is Faith promotion to the exclusion of the truth or anything else so that's the problem with not having an actual historian and it's the same problem well wend is experiencing now what she needs to do is promote people's faith and that trumps the truthful retelling of this story yeah and of course she's going to be the hero y it all revolves around them and I compare this with um unfortunately back in 2017 Summer when elder Holland was given the talk to the mission presidents about the miracle story about the brother who you know grew up went joined the Hell's Angels and then his younger brother joins him and the dogs you know just fall asleep this whole thing and he gets converted back to the church he gets contacted that's completely true except for all the miracle parts so there was a public retraction of it in the desert news amazingly enough but the difference is that Elder Holland's story as incorrect as it was was not a story that made him look good it's about some other people and he's just telling it Elder Nelson and now president Nelson's stories end up being more in the vein of Paul H Dunn cuz they're not just fabricated Miracle stories about somebody they're about him and they make him look good yeah and and you know to Nemo's point cuz his whole point or shouldn't say this whole point his point was that Wendy Nelson is giving a talk she wants us to be Faith promoting and therefore she is going to feel confident enough to maybe embellish details or in this case make them up but that story if you're going to make the story about the adversary is always around you you could still have that story without saying that you were about to be taken hostage or that they were trying to harm your husband you could just say yeah we were at dinner we were eating everything was good and these men just walked in super casually and then attacked us and tried to Rob us it would have the same exact story but as rfm pointed out she needs to make her the hero she needs to make Russell Nelson the hero because now there I think at this point Nelson is profit already right no no no at this point he's not cuz it's 2009 so he she I mean they're they're in line he's in line to be profit and all of a sudden it's like we need to make this story more um impactful and more uh showing that we're the chosen ones that we're getting uh a warning from the holy ghost that other people are not getting and I think that you see that throughout these stories and to me when you see it a few times it's pretty telling that Nelson has a a real deep need to make himself the hero of all of these stories well let's go to the let's maybe go to the next slide I think that is a good transition yeah and so like any good relay race Russell Nelson is going to take the Baton from Wendy he's just going to run with it and so this is going to get ramped up even further when Russell Nelson tell retells the story almost five years later in a broadcast to 153 stakes and just pay attention to how Nel Nelson is going to completely change the story to make himself look exactly like the chosen Prophet the chosen one can I read this I want to read this okay yeah please do on one occasion we were attacked by armed men with malicious intent they announced their purpose to kidnap her and to kill me after they maliciously molested Us in those evil objectives they became totally foiled a gun to my head failed to Fire and my wife was suddenly released from their hideous grasp then they disappeared as quickly as they had appeared we were mercifully rescued from potential disaster we know we were protected by Angels round about us um can I just State the obvious that that does not sound like the previous accounts that you just read in previous slides no it doesn't it completely different yeah that's disturbing this is the first time I'm hearing this by the way this this makes Paul Paul dun's stories look look pretty uh mundane honestly to that's unbelievable yeah it really is and I know if you're a Believer you're you're like Nemo why you're reading it kind of sarcastically but again I just want to repeat the mission president at the time said Elder and sister Nelson were not specifically targeted and now you've got Russell Nelson saying they walked in announc their purpose to kidnap her and kill me and now remember the Nelsons I don't believe could speak portug Portuguese sister Packard can Elder Packard can and yet they in their statements said that they were not specifically targeted know didn't you know president Nelson Has Perfect Pitch and that means you can speak whatever language you like that's kind of what he says about his Mandarin skills is it not yeah when he had said that it was Cindy the um Mission president's wife who was the one who was fluent in Portuguese so there was a possibility that maybe it was actually Cindy who understood them because if you're a robber of course that's what you're going to do you come in you make your announcement about want to I'm going to kidnap you and I'm going to kill the guy who could pay her Ransom yeah I don't know it's not the greatest plan maybe they're not the smartest robbers in the world it's the game That Couldn't Shoot Straight also up to this point there's no reason to think they have anything other than machetes which is what that missionary said it almost always happens with machetes right they're armed they've been consistently described as armed in the US we typically conflate that or frequently conflate it with guns but machetes you're armed with a weapon so up until now there's no reason to think it's anything unusual by which I mean other than machetes and now we get the introduction specifically of a gun which misfires because obviously one of them took their gun put it to president Nelson's head and pulled the trigger yeah and uh in the statement from from Sister Packard the one that they made at the time they do say four armed gunmen so they do make reference to guns at least contemporaneously so we oh did they they say armed gunman okay I apologize oh the other thing about Cindy speaking the Portuguese is that according to Wendy Cindy had already run out into the street to call for help yes so she would not have been there to interpret for the Portuguese speaking robbers so maybe they also spoke English and I just want to say that uh I didn't read it sarcastically I read it with the gravitas that was implied by the telling of this the story and and I thought it was important to point out that the gravity of this situation has increased every single time it's the stakes get higher every single time yeah and you know um to to state the obvious here even if if there are four people with guns and one gun fails to fire there's still three other people with guns which means if they want to kill him they can kill him if we want to be kind of dark about this if their intention is to kill Russell Nelson at this time I put 84 on the slide that's wrong cuz I think I was looking at the date when he gave the talk but you're figuring he's something like 78 years old at this point or something like that um actually no I think he is 84 no he is I did do the math right so he's 80 this is an 84y old man if you have four armed robbers they can kill him very easily let's just be honest here this is not an issue of a gun failing they don't need a gun to kill an 84y old man and it this is just absurd like this story from what we know from the contemporaneous accounts to 5 years later has grown in ways that only serve to make Russell Nelson and Wendy Nelson look better and I and you just once you start to see it now we see it with two different stories where a mundane this isn't a mundane story It's a Robbery I get that but a a ordinary robbery in mosm Beek which is horrible but it's still just a normal robbery um has turned into basically God protecting Russell Nelson giving Wendy Nelson a special feeling of calm right as this is about to go down while not protecting Cindy Packard who's going to have her arm broken it just it just feels like a story that's almost written by an amateur screenwriter who's trying to make like an action movie about a hero this just doesn't add up in any way and he's doing it as the prophet of God or in this you know in this case I guess he's not quite Prophet yet but it's just it's absurd yeah this story though is where we get the famous and of quoted saying every time a gun misfires an angel gets its wings yeah yeah this yeah I it's a Frank kaer reverence yeah that one I actually got I got that reference yeah that what I got yeah it's just you know and again it's like you nothing from Nemo Nemo I did not are kidding me you've never seen It's a Wonderful Life what do you do over there double Boomer double double Boomer rfm double Boomer what do we do over here in England I know established stuff wow okay can I can I just say also that there is this the Odyssey problem of if if he's going to claim that God would intervene to protect him or to save his you know colleagues what about all the Mormon missionaries that have been hit by cars that have been robbed that have been killed we we interviewed uh Mormon missionaries who were sexually assaulted and he doesn't you know literally sexually assaulted on their mission as missionaries very serious stories and uh he has to just if he's going to claim that God's going to intervene and and save him and his cohort he's got to explain why God doesn't intervene on all the not just all the Mormon missionaries that do get killed or maimed or assaulted or raped uh but also just all the humans on the planet just you know kids down the road in the village that God's not intervening to save them from being raped or molested or assaulted or abused it's it's the it's the implied self-aggrandisement though because he knows that people are going to believe well of course he would have been saved because he was being raised up to be God's Prophet or God's apostles so he has to survive whereas other people that just wasn't there yeah in that sense it I I see what you're saying Mike it's in rfm it's kind of self-serving right he's it's completely he's not just he's not just spinning a story he's he's altering a story and he's not just spinning and altering his story he's altering it to give himself power and Glory amongst his following yeah and like you know again I know this is just part of the talk but Cindy Packard got her arm broken during this thing she was a hero she ran out she warned everybody they got they got help you know you think Russell Nelson would be like man she really saved us but he doesn't mention her because it's not about her it's about him these stories and you know I don't mean to be a jerk but when you listen to Nelson tell stories about himself it comes off as a guy who is like please love me and these stories are are doing that and if you felt the spiritual confirmation when you hear that story because it's such a miracle miraculous story what does that tell you about the reliability of those Witnesses when you now know that story didn't happen yeah all right well I'm calling it it's it's Mike rfm and Nemo 2 Russell M Nelson zero let's go to the next uh let's go to the next story this is the big one this is the big one and this is one that Mormonism live covered recently and it's just it's amazing so this is um the story that is kind of known um is the flight of death or the door I think he gave a talk called doors of death in 1992 and so this is one where Russell Nelson talks about a flight he took from Salt Lake City um they had to make an emergency landing after one of the engines exploded um leaving the passenger next to him hysterical as he remained completely calm knowing he was plunging to his death and so what we want to do first is listen to this clip from his talk um from April of 1992 General Conference um the talk was called doors of death so obviously it was about this this flight all right let's play the clip I remember vividly an experience I had as a passenger in a small two propeller airplane one of its engines suddenly burst open and cut caught on fire the propeller of the Flaming engine was starkly stilled as we plummeted in a steep spiral dive down toward the earth I expected to die some of the passengers screamed in hysterical Panic miraculously the precipitous dive extinguished the Flames then by starting up the other engine the pilot was able to stabilize the plane and bring us down safely throughout that ordeal though I knew death was coming my Paramount feeling was that I was not afraid to die I remember a sense of returning home to meet ancestors for whom I had done Temple work I remember my deep sense of gratitude that my sweetheart and I had been sealed eternally to each other and to our children born and reared in the Covenant I realized that our marriage in the temple was my most important accomplishment honors bestowed upon me by men could not approach the inner peace provided by ceilings performed in the house of the Lord okay well that sounds pretty pretty miraculous he even said it was miraculous yeah he even said that he said miraculously the Steep dive extinguished the flame now if there had been a flame it wouldn't be miraculous that would be standard operating procedure to go into a steep dive to try and extinguish the flame mhm okay y yeah if if if if this even happened which spoiler it didn't then anything that was done to prevent it is down to the skill of the pilot it's this is not miraculous this is a pilot who avoided a crisis and he's the one that deserves the credit yeah all right so I guess I I take there's more to the story is that right oh yeah there definitely let's go to the next slide so we're going to go a little bit backwards here but this is um at the beginning of this episode rfm was holding this book Heart to Heart by Russell Nelson and this is what he wrote in the preface of his 19 79 autobiography it says and this is um about the need to write this book so he says the final nudge to write this book came as I was a passenger in a small airplane plummeting earthward with one of its two engines exploded I realized then that although both the spiritual and material needs for my family had been provided I had not left for them a reasonable recapitulation of my life that they could review the safe emergency landing of that disabled aircraft provided me with the chance I needed and so it's just it's a real big difference from the story he's going to tell what 13 years later because it's really a big shift in narrative so you know in 1979 he's saying basically that that event he was thinking about how he needed to write this book in 1992 he's thinking about how he's calm while everyone's hysterical next to him and um the one thing rfm also noted at the beginning of this episode it's just kind of a bit of a side tangent is that this is also a book that we recently learned has a for uh I believe it's the forward from Spencer W Kimble and um Spencer kimbell's journals were recently um released and there's a note during this time frame and it talks about how Russell Nelson wrote the the forward to the book and basically brought it to Spencer Kimble Just to sign off on without him actually writing it in the first place which I just find funny because it says um Nelson brought a suggested forward he has written for me that he would like approval to use in a compilation he has prepared on his life story he has written a very interesting account of his activities some which included experiences with me and I assured him I would read it and give him approval to use it and um there's a note to the side of it that says a fome forward for a man to write about himself and um a lot of people have said that I believe Kimble's son would make notes in his journal so they think Kimble son was basically taking a shot at Nelson by saying that's quite a forward to write about yourself to have someone else sign off on so well yeah it is yeah and it's it's this whole idea of he he's like oh my family were fine but they just didn't know all the cool stuff I did and that's sad so I need to make sure they know about all the cool stuff I did it it again it just builds if we're building up in layers this sort of narcissistic personality that russem Nelson Has it just adds another layer to to that can I just read the first paragraph of this forward that was not repeat not written by President Spencer W Kimble even though it says forward by President Spencer W Kimble by the way by the way I do want to say that I get the fact that lots of times people who are famous or in high position like President Kimbell they get approached by lots of people to write forwards or whatever and they're too busy and they they may very well say and often do just write something up okay and let me look at it and it'll be fine because they don't have the time to do it so it's possible something like that happened but here's the first paragraph which is written by President Nelson about President Nelson's family and himself but attributed to Spencer Kimbell this book first paragraph This Book the engaging record of the life and experiences of Russell Mar and Nelson is a fulfillment of a great dream in these pages he has set forth a Chronicle of his Noble parentage and crystallized the many experiences of himself and his adorable family this work will bring joy and peace and happiness to its readers I would have a tough time writing that about myself oh for someone else to sign I would have a hard time writing about myself in third person just period yeah I don't know if I could write about myself in third person yeah that's yeah it makes a lot of sense given the the the totality of this episode that he would write that but yeah you you listen to that knowing that Nelson wrote it basically just have it signed off on it's like when you write a letter of recommendation um and you're like you go to a professor and you're like I need a letter of recommendation for uh a job or from a current employer and it's like they're the best employee I've ever seen they come to work early and they leave late it's just it's just it's so cartoonish especially when you know that the person wrote it for themselves so that's are we are we okay Devil's Advocate are we holding them to too high of a standard because I can say I absolutely had at least one Professor tell me write your own letter of recommendation and I'll sign my name to it like I've done it um I've done it too so what well let's just say a progressive or liberal Mormon says oh no these are just men they do things just like the rest of us you're holding them to too high of a standard I mean that bits not necessarily as much of the problem as the story that he's telling which just is patently untrue okay all right that's I would say Okay funny honestly forward's more funny than it is no it is a Cheesy thing to write a a glowing introduction about yourself in third person I think it says it says more about his personality than it is necessary about his honesty and honesty if I I I'm sure people who know him say he's a great guy cuz that's always the way it is but honestly based on what I've seen from him I can see him doing that so that seems hey can I give you a sneak peek I'm sorry about uh what it was that Russell M Nelson was doing in August and September of 1968 since we have it on page 3 335 of his book just one paragraph you're going to love it danzel and I went to London Paris Rome Vatican City Athens and Israel Steven Shirley Taylor tended the children we spent a week here we go we spent a week in the holy land and were truly inspired to walk where the Savior had walked what we felt there does not lend itself to verbal expression or apparently written expression either we were moved to visit the Yad Vash vashem excuse me where the name States an identification of the Six Million Jews who were killed in the Holocaust are Rec are recorded the thought occurred to us then and has done subsequently that this museum is a vast Treasure House for those who will want to do Temple work for these dead souls in the future I'm not sure that diary entry has aged well no yikes Nemo you're cringing over there you're literally physically visibly cringing deeply uncomfortable oh man that that's that's deeply why Nemo why because what what he's doing is he's looking at a terrible Mass genocide and going something in this for us no no doesn't no it looking at it going oh is isn't that convenient they've written down the names of all these people that were brutally murdered that's great for us again no don't do that that's not okay is it also fair to say that when he writes when he when he makes that comment about things too sacred to write or speak or whatever that that's code for I'm a special witness of Christ and I had some theophonic that's so sacred I can't give you details because I don't want someone to pick apart my my story later well well in that book he talks about having a second anointing I believe it's in that it's in that autobiography as well he is his reference to having a second anointing so absolutely that book's full of or assumingly has multiple examples the point I'm just making is they really want the the church membership to believe that they have special congress with God and Jesus yeah they want people to fill in the blanks for themselves in the most Faith promoting way possible so they leave it purposely vague so people can do that yep yeah all right all right should we go to the next slide yeah I think so is this the slide Mike uh next slide okay right here there we go yeah so now this is a video that the church puts together in uh 2011 and this is just a one of those things where when you watch this the first thing that comes to mind is Nelson is again making himself the hero by contrasting his perfect calmness with the hysterical Panic of the other passengers and you know if you watch as you watch this video listen to how he describes the the engine bursting open and catching on fire and then I also want you to kind of listen to the music in the background and how the church uses Visual and audio to also generate that spiritual feeling you're going to have um when you watch this this uh this later retelling from Russell [Music] Nelson I was in a small airplane and all of a sudden the engine on the wing caught fire it exploded and burning oil was poured all over the right side of the airplane and we started to dive toward the Earth we were spinning down to our death oh this woman across the aisle I I just was so sorry for her she was just absolutely uncontrollably hysterical and I was calm I was totally calm even though I knew I was going down down to my death I was ready to meet my maker we didn't crash we didn't die the spiral dive extinguished the flame the pilot got control and started the other engine up we made an emergency landing out in the field but I thought through that experience if you've got a faith you can handle difficulties knowing that with an eternal perspective that all will be well okay faith in God in Jesus gives you hope what's that what's rfm I just always like the part when he says we didn't die I just like the part when the girl's just screaming uncontrollably right next to him and then you see Nelson in the background just looking around like you know he's waiting for someone to bring him a glass of water or something I know would you qu would you quit interrupting me screaming woman I'm enjoying my life passing before my eyes yeah I can't believe the seat service has ended so suddenly oh my goodness yeah so I mean it's just the one of the things I love about that video is is just not yeah the the music you hear is just so you know we we talk about this and it's not just religion but music is such a manipulative thing and and and the church owns oh my goodness what's it called heart cell the heart heart cell model where they basically talk about how they can use music to elicit responses from the viewers and and this is one of the ways that the church is so effective when they show a story like this to members because it helps you to feel um that Spirit and the the the visuals they show with like the woman screaming and Nelson just say all of that just contributes to making the story just so Grand and so miraculous and as we'll see it's uh a little light on getting the details right really Qui that the I'm sorry John go ahead no please it's interesting the video does not track his story if you just looked at the video you've got a plane that's encountering some very minor turbulence yep and I think that's probably a lot more closely resembles what it is that actually happened yep I agree maybe the church can't afford this special effects of the spiraling of the plane spiraling to its death just afford that at all John to point John about about you know on its face this is yes faith in uh an afterlife brings you calm in moments of distress and I think that's a that's a valid point to make and I don't want to take that away from anyone I think the overarching point is that he is using an event that didn't happen to try and make that point and he shouldn't be doing that yeah I was just also going to note that um I I've talked to some of my believing family and none of them want to die I'm just not you know even if somebody believes in theory in an afterlife I haven't really met anyone who's excited to go there now if they are it's usually because they're living a life that's tragic and they're miserable and they want to accelerate their demise to escape their pain and suffering but but that idea that he was at peace and he was ready to die I mean it's possible I'm sure there are people that have died that way but for the Mormon the believing Mormons I know they still want to make this life last as long as as it can yeah I mean it's like I I I thought the same thing when I was watching it because I thought even if I was sure that when I died I'd be reunited with my ancestors or whatever I'd still be like super upset that I was going to miss my kid growing up uh what's going to happen with my wife what's going to happen with my my siblings my parents whatever it it's so this idea that you just be super calm you're like well it is what it is it's like no you might feel some inner peace maybe after some time passes but you would have that initial reaction of what am I going to miss well you know and it's just it's so it's so cartoonish the way he tells it which again that's what we're seeing in these stories it's a pattern all right well let's go to the next slide yeah and so as we talked about with other stories this becomes a little bit more exaggerated over the years and it's going to cause some problem so there are some differences from the earlier retellings of the story and every difference as we've seen with the first Vision the priesthood restoration all of it makes the story more miraculous so in this version there's oil that has poured all over the right side of the airplane as it began to plunge to his death and that's important to note cuz oil leaves a lot of uh marks on the plane um Nelson also again makes himself seem even more amazing as he says he felt sorry for the woman next to him as she was absolutely uncontrollably hysterical while he remained perfectly calm in those few moments and just as with the two first two stories the problem is when you get into the Contemporary records of the incident the details don't line up and so uh the really good folks over at discuss Mormonism tocom um on their Message Board they spent I think a couple of months really trying to figure this out and they finally located records of the event and this is what the report from the flight States and this is a report from November 11th 1976 it says second incidents occurred on November 11th 1976 involving Piper PA 31 n74 4985 pilot experienced rough engine on scheduled flight between Salt Lake City in St George pass three passengers on board engine was feathered and precautionary Landing made at Delta Utah per instruction company manual investigation revealed cylinder based studs were sheared as result of occurrence Sky West changed maintenance procedures by checking torque studs at each 100h hour inspection no damage to aircraft no injuries to crew or passengers whoa now wait a minute that report's very different from the story he's been telling in the previous slides yeah just a bit can can we repeat that Nemo do you want to repeat it for just for a sure so uh just the The crucial Point yeah the crucial Point okay so uh Sky West changed maintenance procedures by checking torque studs at each 100h hour inspection no damage to aircraft no injuries to crew or passengers did he say that an engine blew up and and burst into flames and was spiring burning oil and fuel spewed over the wing of the aircraft engulfing it in flames and wait does the flight report say no damage to aircraft it does indeed John it does okay I I think there's a problem here it also says a precautionary landing at the Delta airport not an emergency landing which are two very different things in a farmer's field in a farmer's field yeah I mean I can give Nelson calling it an emergency landing versus precautionary Landing that's fine but it would very clearly be listed as an emergency landing if the things that Nelson had described had occurred because that is an emergency not merely a precaution so what are the can someone list all the lies that have been told in the story uh spiral dive engine exploding fuel spewing damage to aircraft possible injuries to other people also I I that makes me wonder whether the woman next to him was screaming hysterically and whether he was M Mr Cal in contrast to her although he may have been some people find turbulence incredibly upsetting right so some she may have she may have been and he may have been calm because that would be the rational reaction to some light engine trouble is remaining calm and that's true I mean I've been on a flight before where there's really rough turbulence and you hit a big bump and you hear like half the plane go you know and it that you keep like especially some of the kids start to cry cuz they're like what the crap's going on so yeah it's possible the person next to them was grabbing stuff tight and making some noise I mean it that makes sense when you've got maybe some shaking that you're not expecting but the way you're telling it is like this you're using her as the foil to your plot right you're trying to make her the the one that's going to make you look better and I think that's where you kind of have to look at it with the same light you look at these other stories and go when you start to see the pattern of what Nelson does it seems to indicate that he's very open to using other people to make his stories become all the better and the lying is horrific but just this constant this constant need when I tell a story I want to glorify like the reason I started Mormon stories is I wanted to support other people telling their stories like this impulse of telling a story to make yourself look good it just feels gross to me even the people that I respect even if they make a self-referential story they usually they usually are self-deprecating and they're trying to elevate someone else in the the story they're not constantly trying to make themselves look good in their stories that's just douchy it is it's a little douchy it is and you know we all have stories where we retell them and we exaggerate it but usually when you exaggerate it you are letting people around you know you're exaggerating it you know um I'll give you guys a quick story um we visited my my in-laws in Prague uh they were on a senior Mission and we were taking the whatever they call their subway system and and I was holding my my kid because it was pretty crowded and he didn't have a bar to grab so I was holding him with my arms I had one arm on the pole one arm on him we come to the subway stop and I I immediately reached down in my pockets and my phone's gone and there was a guy next to me that kept brushing up against me which I thought was weird so I jump off the I really did I jumped off the subway car and I started chasing this guy I yell back to my wife I'll be right back which is stupid because I can't speak the language I don't even know where I'm at I run to this dude and I'm like give me my phone and all of a sudden I hear a noise he threw the the phone like 10 ft away so when I looked at my phone he ran the other way I grabbed my phone I ran I got back on the subway car before it took off and I was like I can't believe I pulled that off it was so stupid to go after some random guy when I retell that story to people I exaggerate it even more than that but when I'm doing it I'm saying it with this tone of like you know it's cartoonish like I tell it like I'm John Wick and the point is that it's it's a story I shouldn't actually shouldn't have jumped off the subway car but when I retell that story I don't tell it like using other people to make myself look better I'm telling it like yeah it was stupid and I exaggerate it because it's funny but here Nelson is ex what's that I said that's it the Crux of the story is that you were a muppet you shouldn't have jumped off the subard after your phone whereas Nelson is using these exaggerations to make other people think that he is chosen of God and I think that is where you cross that line from exaggerations and stories are going to happen we all know that but exaggerations and stories to manipulate other people to be more loyal to you that's where there's a problem let me add that that there were a number of pilots who contacted me and Bill and showed up on the discussed Mormonism board and all of them that expressed an opinion on this issue said no that didn't happen not the way it's described and one of the key things that they all focused in on as the most absurd was President Nelson statement that they went into a spiral dive and then just before they hit the ground the pilot started the other engine up the one that wasn't in Flames that means the other engine went out okay here's the thing I had to learn abouta right what I'm sorry I forgot that detail that one that one's the one that cracks me up the most I forgot that one right you've got twin engines and the deal is they're not connected to each other there are two separate fuel lines that go to each engine so if one has a problem it doesn't take the other one out because if you've got no engines you are in a lot of trouble if you've got one engine working you're fine you can keep flying on forever I mean you should probably uh land as soon as possible and get most aircraft you they're designed to fly on one engine most modern aircraft right and you feather the props and that was in the um what was it the NTSB National traffic safety board entry and you feather the props which means you turn them straight ahead on the engine that's not working anymore so there's no drag and then you just sort of yaw is the word they use you yaw the plane to the side and then you keep traveling in that direction forward but yeah they are designed that way and so once the fire goes on if there is indeed a fire what you do is you cut the fuel to that engine you hit the fuel line so that there's no more fuel going into it to continue the problem with the fire and feeding the fire but you don't hit the fuel line to the other engine that's not having a problem y the fact that President Nelson says that before they hit the ground he turns on the other engine necessarily means that the other engine went out as part of this dive the odds against that are astronomical and when I say that I mean both engines having trouble on the same brief flight y y well I maybe I'm missing something here wouldn't both engines be running and then one fails but the other still running yes yeah that's what I was trying to describe in my own un Artful way yeah or inartful yeah and so you just shut this one off you know you stabilize shut this one off and then fly with the the remaining engine and apparently the problem wasn't that it it blew up or was in Flames the problem was with the studs and it was probably rattling because they were starting to come a little bit loose so they had to change the yeah I think they described it as a rough engine or something yes it was flying rough so they I'm sure they cut the fuel to it and just went on the other one and the pilot is telling them all this stuff I mean the pilot is right there it's a small engine even in a big aircraft the pilot comes over the inter com and says okay everybody this is what we're going to be doing it lets everybody know in advance because the last thing you want is I don't know people getting hysterical yep so you let them know it's all fine and all this pilot has to do is turn over and talk to the people who are right behind him MH yeah and of course he's going to do that and don't even get me started on the point of no return okay and the high and the mighty yeah I forgot about that part yep yeah so that was was wait do our listeners and viewers know what you're talking about probably not's listen to the earlier one no what's that Mike why don't you tell us about that the high and the mighty and the point of no return so this is from uh the Mormonism live episode and in uh one of Nelson's recountings he says that the pilot actually comes over the air to say we're past the point of no return which would be a really weird thing to say to passengers like hey guys we're past the point in no return like why would you say that and so I think rfm pointed out that more likely the the pilot might have said we're over halfway to our destination and I believe the reference now this is where I might misremember it I believe the reference of point no return is when you're over water or something like that and you can no longer turn back to land and again that would not be the case when you're flying from Salt Lake City to wherever he's going and the reason I say the high and the Mighty the 1950s famous John Wayne movie right yep right with a haunting score by Dimitri tiamin okay but anyway way the whole plot device there is the plane being piloted by John Wayne and I think co-piloted by Robert Stack maybe but they're coming across from Hawaii to San Francisco you got no place to land except the water and that's not a good idea but it's your only option so the point of no return means when you have gone so far over the water that you now have not enough fuel if there's a problem to turn around and get back where you started the point of no return means you are committed now irrevocably to getting to your point of destination which is San Francisco and it's a big deal in the show and it's a real expression that Pilots use it's just that it doesn't have any meaning when you're over land and there are several intermediate places you could touch down like I don't know the Delta airport between Salt Lake City and St George which is where he was going to give the opening prayer for a service or whatever you would call it where they were I think uh appointing or inaugurating a new president it was the inauguration of the president of Dixie College yeah he was given the open impr pra um and and I think a John Wayne reference lands you your third Boomer Boomer award for today rfm and I think boomers are cool so I mean that in all the positive ways but it's very ominous the way he uses it the pilot came over and said well we just passed the point of no return and Russell says well I thought that was an odd thing for him to say well yes it would be a very odd thing for him to say very strange it it may induce hysteria in fact yes yeah we was certain yeah imagine imagine a pilot like on a Southwest flight getting over like you're two hours into a flight and they like we're past the point no return and everyone's like why would you like there's no you would never say Southwest Pilots will say that when you take off right I mean that's that's just flying Southwest yeah that's true that's a fair point but still yeah it be irresponsible of a pilot to say that to to to passengers because of course you're not there's nothing positive that comes from saying that even if you say it as a joke You' still be like that's odd so yeah it makes no sense well let's find out how a precautionary Landing becomes a miraculous one yeah and so one of the things that some people said is maybe that flight record didn't match the flight that Nelson took and so um the reason we know that it does match is that it was the day before Nelson's scheduled talk and there are no other incidents in that entire time frame uh it also matches because they mentioned that the plane landed in Delta Utah which Nelson mentions in the very same biography that had the woman in the Hat story removed um it says miraculously the freef fall extinguished the fire and in the nick of time the pilot was able to start the left engine regain control the plane and guide it to an emergency landing in a farmer's field not far from Delta Utah and so everything lines up and what the record tells us is that the plane did not have damage which as we said rejects the idea that it exploded with oil shooting all over the right side uh the report States they made a precautionary Landing due to engine Feathering which is a Techni technique used by pilots when one of the two engines is failing to operate um as rfm noted I think it's a tactic where they can kind of shift the the angle of the propellers so that they it get it doesn't create that that drag uh from the air and so while Nelson claims that an emergency landing was made in a farmer field outside of Delta Utah the actual records show that the plane simply made a precautionary landing at the Delta Utah airport with no damage to the aircraft instead of a spiraling flight to their death the pilot used a technique of engine Feathering during a precautionary Landing so that they could have the plane inspected it it's just another instance where you have you know a story that there's a shell to it that's true but the shell that's true is just fairly ordinary and the miraculous parts are all completely invented after the fact years later yeah I mean you've got to you've got to realize though these guys they come from a tradition where miraculous stories have been told about all their predecessors as Apostles right there's there's miraculous story after miraculous story about the early days of the church and so if your life is failing to live up to that members are expecting those sorts of things to continue because God is an unchanging God so you've kind of got to give members some Miracles otherwise you're just an old dude yeah right yeah you're just an old dude that someone picked to be a leader and then you got you you lived you outlived your your peers and so you had top seniority in the Quorum and and that's why you're a prophet your only achievement is outliving everyone else right God God hasn't necessarily found any favor in you per se yeah yeah that's just it and by the way uh without going into a lot of detail about these NTSB records the national traffic safety board records that we're talking about this is positively identified this has to be the one that it's talking about number one there was only one airline that ran y flights between Salt Lake City and St George at the time and there were two other flights one maybe several days before this another several days after which have completely different details they don't match at all so this has got to be it the only possibility the only possibility to save president Nelson's credibility in the story is to hypothesize that there was a flight that this actually did happen on but that nobody reported it to the NTSB so there's no record of it because if they had reported it there definitely would have been a record of it an emergency landing yes this is just a precautionary landing and it had to be reported to the NTSB and the fact is that if you are a pilot and you have an emergency landing and you fail to report it to the NTSB you're going to lose your pilot's license lose your wings yeah I was going to say is it not a is it not a federal law like a federal legal requirement that you report these things yes so yeah yeah so it's very unlikely that that theory is correct is all I'm saying I've heard that before too they'll say well they probably just lost the records and I was like well you know maybe Russell Nelson went to the NTSB he's like I got to show us to Danel and they're like we can't let you have it he went again he's like I need you to let me show it they're like no and he went the third time they're like oh power three we got to give it to you and then danzel burned it and said if if it really happened they could produce a record again and then they never could yeah that's a really that's a really bad 116 page see the see the 116 page uh Pages episode of ld's discussions yeah I'm seeing that Nemo has now changed my subtitle on my name from uh what was it Braes or Robin to winner of three Boomer Awards Nemo is very busy over there in his corner of the world he's got to earn his he's got to earn his keep he's earning his keep he's reminding me more and more of Gus The Lovable Chimney Sweep oh that's getting you four is that a Mary Poppins reference Simpsons oh okay no you don't get you don't get a boomer award for Simpsons reference sorry sorry rfm you're going to stick with three for now okay well I'm going to just I'm I'm doing a running tally and I think the the flight records Alone um in addition to the Ridiculousness of the technicalities of the story uh take us to LDS discussions rfm and Nemo 3 uh Russell M Nelson zero so he's got one more chance one more chance to redeem himself in this story Mike do you want to take us into his the November uh 2015 um Revelation yeah and this is when we covered in our episodes on Revelation but this one's a little bit different because it pertains to the church's November 2015 LGBT policy of exclusion and basically what happens is the church's handbook leaks out uh gets a lot of bad publicity it Reveals All the harsh changes towards LGBT members and their children so Russell Nelson kind of takes it upon himself to declare that the hbook changes with a direct Revelation from God himself and so you know by itself you can't prove the story wrong because we weren't there uh but where Nelson goes a bit too far is kind of talking about how all of the other Apostles there feel a confirmation in the process itself so if we play this clip then we'll kind of go into one of The Insider accounts we have as to how this all went down this prophetic process was followed in 2012 with the change in minimum age for missionaries and again with the recent additions to the church's handbook consequent to the legalization of same seex marriage in some countries filled with compassion for all and especially for the children we wrestled at length to understand the Lord's will in this matter ever mindful of God's Plan of Salvation and of his hope for eternal life for each of his children we considered countless permutations and combinations of possible scenario that could arise we met repeatedly in the temple in fasting and prayer and sought further Direction and inspiration and then when the Lord inspired his Prophet president Thomas S Monson to declare the mind of the Lord and the will of the Lord each of us during that sacred moment felt a spiritual confirmation it was our privilege as Apostles to sustain what had been revealed to president Monson Revelation from the Lord to his servants is a sacred process and so is your privilege of receiving personal revelation well I know what my personal revelation just told me about his revelation did you see the body language on him when he says Ah Prophet yeah Thomas says like he he really stands up to attention lifts the chest out and it's almost like he rehearsed this talk in front of a mirror and compassion for all it it it it feels very rehearsed the emotionality like why do they have to speak in this type of tone why can't they just speak like normal people and again I don't know if we've got it in the slides but later on when he reverses this policy um he says whenever the children of uh of God weep for any reason and does this whole overdramatic look up to God in the sky we weep sort of thing it's it all feels very calculated and very forced well this was because this is when they're under a lot of fire for this policy and Nelson's giving a very public talk about it so of course these words are chosen carefully as you could tell from the way he talks and they need to make it look like Revelation from God because they need the members basically to sit down and shut up so they need members to stop thinking they want the church you know it's this policy versus Doctrine but they want them to think it's a policy from God and not just policy and so yeah this there there's a purpose to this talk and Nelson has his purposes the church has other purposes but in this case they're going to intersect because Nelson needs people to believe if it comes from a prophet that is from God because Nelson also knows he's going to be Prophet you know coming up soon after Monson passes so it's it's very self-serving to him as well right there were a couple things that I noted at the time first of which was this was in January 2016 when he's talking about the prior November and he specifically and definitely labels it as a revelation which had not been done up to that time and I remember voicing the question at the time well we've got conference coming in three months conference is coming up and I am going to wait with baited breath to see if any of the other Apostles that President nson says we're engaged in all of these meetings and fastings and praying and considerations about the policy backed him up on his story none of them did much to my surprise none of the Apostles came forward and mentioned anything about it the cheese stands alone yep so that was one thing about it and uh I can't remember the second thing but maybe it'll come to me yeah no it fits I mean that's and that's the thing weal so there was an episode we did I think it was on Revelation and you know the story about oh my gosh I can't remember who it is someone's questioning when they're doing the book of Commandments and they're like these these Revelations read really horribly and Joseph Smith's like I just got a revelation from God he wants you to try to do it and if you could do better then you could do better and they all sit there and they're trying to I think it's Willie mlen is trying to write a revelation and they all realize it's not from God and so therefore Joseph Smith must be getting them from God and Russell Nelson I think is he'd be the one guy in that room that'd be like yeah I could write one in the voice of God because Russell Nelson has that mindset I think he would absolutely be able to do it whereas a lot of other people a lot of other leaders in the church today are not willing to step out as far as Nelson did because they know full well that what Nelson's doing here is not being truthful so they're not willing to do it but Nelson does not seem to have the problem with exaggerating or fabricating stories in order to elevate both himself and the church and I think you know that that reminds me of that earlier story because I think Nelson in that room would have been like yeah I could definitely write a revelation from God and he would have tried but um he doesn't have the same Hang-Ups no he doesn't seem to have that hang up about calling things from God whereas someone like Gordon B Hinkley I think would would not have gone out and been like yeah it was Revelation you been like yeah it's a policy it's a you know whatever but some people would call that hang up a conscience yes some would um he wouldn't he would he would call I don't know what he'd call it it's interesting if you go to the um the DNC Institute manual from 2002 under the law of common consent it says that not only are Church officer sustained by Common consent but this same principle operates for policies major decisions acceptance of new scripture and other things that affect the lives of the Saints so it's interesting that you mentioned that conference was coming up F because really members should have then had a chance to uh be part of a common consent vote to adopt this new policy towards children um and they never were given that opportunity so not only were not all the apostles involved when they should have been but the members of the church should have also been involved in this decision and weren't this statement by President Nelson is also important because he tells us explicitly the reason for this policy it's not up to guesswork he tells us that the reason they did this policy they created this policy whatever that process really looked like was consequent or because of the legal what was it consequent to the legalization of same-sex marriage in some countries well it it had it had just happened in the United States the summer before he's talking about the United States but regardless he says it was made consequent to the legalization of same-sex marriage so we don't have to look at the timing and say it's obvious that that's why they did this it was a reaction and an overreaction at that to the um the overfell decision by the Supreme Court from a few months before November of 2015 when they snuck it into the policy and thank goodness for John delin and his contacts in his show where was able to be leaked to the world because uh honestly John that was huge of all the things you've done podcasting uh some things are more important than others like anybody that's right up there with uh the top things that you've done M well thanks and it's there there's something just structurally skey about him claiming that this was Revelation that this decision was Revelation because because number one the Revelation itself the policy itself is so egregious for those who have never been Mormon who don't know what we're talking about this is this is a quote Revelation which really was a change in policy that basically declared legal same-sex marriage as being worse than pedophilia or rape or sexual abuse why because the first thing the policy did is require a mandatory uh disciplinary counsel which means excommunication for anyone entering into committed same-sex love and that's just that's just abominable onface value um the the church handbook of instructions did not require excommunication for rape did not require excommunication for pedophilia or child abuse or um for all sorts of heinous acts it would always be up to the discretion of the bishop and uh the State president as to whether or not um you know as to whether or not they needed to even hold a disciplinary Council let alone excommunicate them but this promoted legal same-sex love as as as basically the worst of all sins and if that weren't enough uh everyone should know that this policy went on to say that the children of same-sex married couples even if even if the it it started in a mixed orientation marriage and then that that mixed orientation married couple got divorced and then the husband for example the gay husband went on to marry another gay man even the you know even the children that were born under those circumstances wouldn't be allowed to get babies blessings wouldn't be allowed to get baptized wouldn't be allow allowed to advance in the levels of the priesthood if they were young men the only way they could ever become members would be if they were 18 then If Only They denounced the marriage of their parent would they be allowed to get baptized and become a me member in full standing that is such an outrageously hateful and heinous policy it's just it just it Bears belief that he would claim that God our Father and Heaven that Jesus Christ who is no respector of persons that those two Celestial beings would be the authors of such a policy because when he claims that this policy came from Revelation he's claiming that God and Jesus were the authors of this horrible despicable policy so I that's that's the bigger problem that I have um that that they're blaming God for their despicable bigoted acts yes and the good news is God changed his mind after three and a half years yeah yeah because it's such an important Revelation that it can't even stand four years should we should we go to the actual account yeah all right let's go to it so this is where things get interesting because we then get to learn that this is not how it happened and um historian Greg Prince gives an interview with Peggy flet Fletcher stash uh stack for her Mormon land podcast and Prince had spoken with Tom kristopherson who is the brother of apostle Todd kristopherson so we get an inside account of what happened and to make this even more important regarding his particular policy Tom kristopherson is an openly game member of the church and so um Prince tells us that this was not a revelation that was received in the presence of the Apostles as Russell and Nelson says but it was a statement that was presented to Thomas Monson which was then put to an up and down vote without debate among the apostles and so I don't know if Nemo or someone else wants to read these two paragraphs this is uh GRE Gregory Prince's Insider account of what went down yeah according to everybody I spoke to including some general authorities this was the church's response to O obge versus Hodges the Supreme Court decision in June of the same year that had legalized same-sex marriage I think it caught the church off guard and I think there was some scrambling to figure out well what do we do now given that we have an article of faith that says we will obey and sustain the laws of the land so this happened whoever did it amongst the TW took into president Monson and as I understand it presented it as a package saying this is what we need to do at that time uh it was an Open Secret that President Monson had sunk fairly deep into dementia and people I talked to in the medical community who weren't his primary care physicians but who knew what was going on said he was not capable at that time of having formulated this decision so his response whatever it was was something of a reflex and that was the go-ahead but what Tom Christ said that evening so this is now Thursday evening he said he had spoken to his brother Todd earlier and that Todd had told him that Tuesday morning was the first he had known about this policy and that it was presented to the 12 as an up and down vote without debate so where are the lies there oh the idea that you know they all felt the spirit and witnessed the truthfulness of it and we witnessed as our Prophet Thomas S Monson knelt in prayer etc etc and if he's got dementia how is Thomas S Monson receiving this Revelation if he like can't even order his own root beer you know yeah yeah once again we're back to mash aren't we this is radar putting the papers in front of Colonel Henry Blake for him to sign mindlessly yes yeah I mean basically this is you know Monson doesn't have the mental capability to craft any kind of real statement and so basically you would assume like Oaks and Nelson and them are coming up to him with a statement they're saying this is what we need to do they put up to an up or down vote last second no debate and they vote and Nelson now is basically Bally going because I think a lot of people think Nelson's fingerprints around this I think a lot of people think obviously Oaks would be because he's very openly anti-lgbt and so Nelson now is going out and he's trying to not just sell this policy but he's trying to sell the idea that it's a prophetic thing because he knows he's going to be the next Prophet which is again very self- serving to himself as most self-serving things are yeahh yeah but but honestly it's not just the prayer right it's elaborate we met repeatedly all the apostles president Nelson tells us all of us Apostles we met repeatedly in the temple fasting and praying we considered countless permutations and combinations of how things could happen and we went to the Lord none of that happened according to this story relayed from DDD kristopherson to his brother Tom to Greg Prince Now Greg Prince I've read a lot of his stuff I have no problem taking his word for this story he's very accurate in what he says he is not prone like some people to embellishment so I have no problem taking his word for this Tom I don't know him I expect he probably said it pretty straightforwardly we do have to go back through a number of people to get back to dett kristopherson but I think the Providence is pretty good on this story and I'm inclined to accept it as accurate yeah and and many people view this actually as a power play because if now if if Monson was truly um experiencing dementia which was true 5 to 10 years before this time actually he had been dealing with Dementia for a long long time that means that whoever was the senior uh president of the Corum of the 12 apostles was the one who was really behind this so to me it makes sense that this was sort of a pet project that Nelson and or Oaks decided that they wanted to Ram through taking advantage of monson's state of being in dementia and the evidence seems to bear that out rfm you were kind enough to mention the fact that a an Ser actively serving Bishop brick member leaked this policy to me did the church you know leaders received this Revelation then decide to read it in general conference so that all the members would know no what they did is they made some legalistic policy change in the church's Handbook of instructions and just hope that no one would notice and that this policy would be quietly enforced but if you're getting this Grand Majestic Revelation why aren't you announcing in general conference getting all the media involved why aren't you adding it as an appendage declaration three of the scriptures that's what you do when you get a majestic Revelation you don't secretly and Snidely inserted into a handbook of instructions while your prophet is experiencing dementia claim that it's a prophetic Revelation and then and then you know try and pass it off as just a little policy change right like I said it should have come up for a common consent vote I mean the last thing that was done for was the 1978 lifting of the priesthood ban and I think it's interesting that the church has moved to an electronic handbook now it's purely digital which means that people can't then go through old copies and be like well hang on it's changed here it's changed here they can just sneak these changes in it will just become an evolving live document over time and so people have got to keep on top of it to see where these changes are happening yes they treated this Revelation like it was something they were ashamed of and they should have been ashamed of it but if you're ashamed of a revelation then maybe you should double check on whether it's really a revelation yeah yeah yeah yeah and not only is the way that they rolled it out so sneakily and underhanded evidence that that Nelson's story is false again the fact that they rolled it back just within four years later is I think the death blow to the claim that this is revelation the thing I always say is um they say that God knew that Joseph Smith would lose 116 pages so he had a second set of plates prepared thousands of years earlier for that exact scenario but did not know that the November 15 policy was going to fail in three and a half years and those are the things you're just like you see those inconsistency like yeah this is all pointing to a very clear conclusion but yeah it it makes no sense and and renland has said recently in conference that we should not pray about things that the prophet has already spoken on so then when Russ Nelson starts to say that they were praying and fasting and pleading to know what to do well they shouldn't have been because the prophet had already spoken and said that children of samesex couples could not be members end off Case Closed that's the problem with the things that renland says and generally this idea of once the Propet prophets spoken the debate's over because well how does that allow for the continuing changing of things like that they need to have in order to make mess ups like this be fixed yeah yeah all right well let's go to the next slide shall we yeah and so just kind of we've been highlighting this a bit but you know this particular story is not quite as obvious as the first three that we gave about Nelson um just because of the fact that you know it's a slightly different scenario where Nelson's not necessarily kind of the star of the show but you could see that Tom kristopherson is clearly rebuking Nelson's statement that it was a revelation from God given directly to Thomas Monson as they sat in prayer because it's now a bit of an Open Secret that Monson was incapable of making those kinds of statements and Todd uh christopherson's description of the proceedings completely contradict Nelson's story that the apostles as rfm said discussed every permutation uh and discussion in the temple regularly as Christopherson is clear that these handbook changes were presented with a straight up and down vote no debate and on the flip side as I said this makes sense when you realize that Nelson one would have supported that policy and two knew he was the prophet and waiting and by building up the idea of this Revelation it would immediately Elevate his own standing once Monson passed away and Nelson takes over and so um you know and if that's not enough as rfm also pointed out no one else involved in this change ever gave a description like Nelson did which seems odd given the fact that Nelson says they were all there they all got to witness this it was all this miraculous amazing Revelation and yet not a single other Apostle would step up and give any description like Nelson did which tends to look like Nelson is out on his own on this one and and for me that there's two important points that we haven't really mentioned one one was that as soon as this policy came out Progressive and liberal Mormons just couldn't believe it they were just like there's no way that the church has made so much progress in the past 10 or 20 years there's no way this happened and so there was all this murmuring and the way that the progressive and the liberal Mormons were justifying it was by saying that it's just a policy and it'll change it's not Doctrine so one of the motivations for for Nelson doubling down was to try and squelch the progressive rumors that this wasn't Doctrine it was just a policy but the other really important motivation I think was that the other word that was getting around was that there was not unanimity in the Quorum that there were actually Apostles that were not advised that this policy was coming down and who disagreed with this decision and you know this is sort of this is sort of a tactic that a Apostles have made in the past where if one of them can just get to the media and make a public statement because they have a policy of never disagreeing with each other in public the rest have to go with whatever the vocal Apostle leads with and in this case I believe this was Nelson forcing all the apostles to uh get in line and to communicate through back channels that they were supportive of uh of this decision because uh because once it's declared publicly as Doctrine there can be no back Channel conversations that were happening as I understand it where Apostles like possibly kristopherson like possibly Holland like definitely uorf would have been saying what the f what the fetch Russell and Nelson and d h Jes why are you jamming this through without our approval we do not approve of this heinous revelation right and John whatever happened to this story that I've heard about important decisions being made by talking things out remember we talk things out around the table and we keep talking until everybody comes to a consensus and that consensus then becomes the definition of revelation yeah what's all this about it no no discussion it's sprung on them on Tuesday November 3rd 2015 for an up or down vote what kind of horse is that it it seems pretty clear that that Nelson and Oaks decided they wanted to jam this into the church's policies and they didn't want to get a buy off by the other members of the quum of the 12 and so they ramrodded it through and then faced the Wrath uh you know in response not just the Wrath of the Apostles privately but of the public very much so and by the way John remember even before they got to the part where people are lining up and crowds are going to um resign from the church on Temple Square by hundreds and thousands I mean it was massive I know it's a few years ago but we don't want to forget it but even so after this was leaked by you John on November 5th the first response that I heard from faithful members was this was an anti-mormon lie because the leaders would never do this do you remember that absolutely absolutely yeah it's like John delin created you know something to smear the good name of the church you know and then the following evening on November 6th Friday they scrambled and got detto christon and Mike otter got thrown in a room yes which Christopherson had just come back from a trip no like he was thrown into that quite heavily yeah obviously they had to scramble and they had to scramble fast and they did but the thing that was the most important part of it was yeah this isn't something that's being made up by John dind John dy's name wasn't brought up of course but it confirmed that yeah this is really something that the church just did yes this just happened yeah well so are did we clear the slide Mike did we get everything from it yeah yeah we okay so I I think so okay let's let's there's two slides left let's go to the next slide yeah just you know just to kind of start to wrap this up we have Nelson Nel fabricating exaggerating whatever words you want to use four different Miracle stories uh oh yeah I got to give my count I'm definitely giving this I'm this my BS meter is all off on this one so this is LDS discussions rfm and Nemo for Russell M Nelson zero he he got swept he got swept today okay and by the way the first three stories Mike those first three stories I think they're kind of incontrovertible and when you start adding them up you see a pattern happening the real problem is that that's just fun in games but when you get to this fourth example suddenly it becomes serious yep yeah it really is a m LGBT issues in Mormonism are a matter of life and death just objectively with the suicide epidemic that we've had and the way that families get destroyed and the depression and the anxiety all right so go ahead Mike yeah just you know one of the things that I want you know we pointed out as we went is the first three make Nelson the star of the story really to I believe establish his place in the church among God's chosen people I mean this really elevates himself above other people because he's getting the Miracles that everybody else is hoping for and the fourth story is very beneficial to himself because he knows Monson was not in good health and he would soon be being taking over his prophet and you know more troubling is that Russell M Nelson seems to have no problem inventing miraculous elements of these stories in order to establish himself as that elect member of the church and we've covered this this is something that happened with Joseph Smith um Brigham Young you know the fact that Nelson had to invent the idea of the woman with a hat on her head in order to claim he received a prompting from God to me is one of the most troubling aspects of these stories because it's showing that he's willing to lie about a revelation Vision prompting from God in order to tell a story that boosts his own image because remember that woman didn't wear a hat he needed to invent the idea of the Hat in order to make that story make sense that he'd pick her out of a crowd it's a whole bunch of little details that maybe seem small by themselves but when you realize what he's trying to do he's trying to create these little details to make the story work that to me is is problematic especially when you're using it to claim promptings from God and every member who receives a spiritual confirmation when hearing these stories was emotionally manipulated because they didn't happen as they were told and to me as we've talked about in these previous episodes it it shows how unreliable spiritual Witnesses are um when it comes to Discerning truth and you have to then ask yourself if I had that spiritual confirmation on a story that wasn't true what does that tell you about having a spiritual confirmation and you know the bottom line is if if if Nelson is willing to make up these stories to create Miracles you can be sure that he has and he will just as e easily fabricate stories about receiving other claimed Revelations and Impressions from God just as we saw with the November 15 policy and you know again I I we've used this line a few times but Wendy Nelson his his his current wife really gives the game away when she admits of what being a prophet really boils down to for Russell Nelson and she said I have seen him changing the last 10 months it's as though he's been Unleashed he's free to follow thing follow through with with things he's been concerned about but never could never do now that he's president he can do those things and you combine that mindset with the pattern of Russell Nelson making up uh exaggerating fabricating stories in order to get what he needs to get done and that that's kind of a dangerous recipe and certainly not one that speaks to an honest and an open Church yeah as I put it four years ago the question is not whether we should sustain president Nelson as a prophet Seer and Revelator the question is with we would buy a used car from this man yeah it's true yeah I wouldn't either once you once you realize it's the same you know I've used this reference a lot or this example but you know if you if you catch your spouse lying three times and then you catch them lying a fourth time are you going to continue to be like yeah I think he's I think he's on the up and up or you going to be like okay I think that's enough and and that to me is what it boils down to how many times you need the leader of your church to fabricate stories that are miraculous before you go go I don't think this guy is really uh coming at this with the most upright and respectable demeanor and and I guess everyone has a different answer apparently but to me I think four times is more than enough and seven of the 15 I'm just going to get this out there from my own research seven of the 15 uh have been involved in have been involved collectively in 11 instances of public dishonesty um that I have put together and there is there is more if you count some of these things as well so yeah you know that it's it's epidemic within the senior leadership of the church this isn't just Russ M Nelson seven out of 15 essentially half you just need we just need to find one more of them doing something like this and we're over half of the members of the first prescy of cor the 12 have been honest yeah and I think I think why this is particularly meaningful within the context of this LDS discussion series is you know I was thinking about how horrific it is the the Mormon church has such a record of protecting abusers child abusers and and sexual abusers and at the expense of victims but then I was thinking well obviously if if the founder of your religion engaged in predatory sexual behavior and Justified it then of course there's going to be sexual problems down the road with the way that the leadership handles sexual matters and it's the kind same kind of thing here LDS discussions we've chronicled how Joseph Smith made things up madeup stories stretch stories um added to them over time changed things if necessary got done away with Revelations if they weren't convenient uh rewrote Revelations out of whole cloth to completely flip their meaning if your religion starts with a pricing Prophet then how in the world can you expect subsequent prophets to to to hold a different standard of of Truth and of honesty I mean the Apple doesn't far that fall from the tree the fish rots from the head and you know because the the vast nepotism there's some there's some genetic reasoning behind all this too yeah you know uh Henry beiring I think is the fourth in a line of nephews coming from H coming from Joseph Smith himself uh Emeral balad is the great nephew of of ham Smith all this sort of stuff so so yeah yeah it's all contained within this little group yeah well Mike let's let you give this final slide yeah just you know as I said earlier fo me once shame on you full me four times shame on us and it just we we've covered so many of these episodes that we've done in the series about Joseph Smith fabricating Miracle stories when his uh credibility was questioned when his leadership was being questioned uh we could document how Bigham young did it we talk about the Transfiguration of Bigham young being created basically 7 years after it happened as a mundane event and the question I keep asking applies here if any other Rel religious leader was caught fabricating or outright inv venting four different Miracle stories in order to set themselves apart as a chosen prophet of God what would you say about that person's credibility and character and there's no amount of special pleading that can change what the conclusion is about Russell Nelson if he was from any other church and I think uh it sucks as a member to to hear this episode it sucks as a member to read these things but at the end of the day these are are stories that are documenting contemporaneously and once you have that and you can compare to how they're told years later you can't really deny the fact that Russell Nelson is making up Miracles while doing it as someone who is trying to build his own Charisma up among the among the membership to be revered as one of the all-time prophets of the church I think you know we joke about how he creates more temples to try to you know one up Gordon be Hinkley because Gordon be hinley clearly had a grudge against with the whole name change it just seems that Nelson has a big need for having a big Legacy and unfortunately it's one thing to exaggerate a story it's another thing to do it in the name of God and I I think that's where you have to say well if he's willing to do it if Joseph Smith was willing to do it kind of what you guys were just saying it it what's left at some point you just got to go all none none of this adds up and if nothing adds up then there's no there's no value to to a church where every single truth claim is problematic yeah there's so many elements and so many ways you can look at this but one of the ones I just want to touch on is that when you have a leader of the church happened with Paul H Dunn it's happening again with President Nelson who are willing to embellish stories to make pedestrian things or ordinary everyday things miraculous which it sure looks like we've got the receipts on President Nelson in this regard when you do that and you get caught it's a really bad thing when you're a leader in a church that's whole claimed to authenticity is based upon the miraculous stories of its founder because as soon as you start taking ordinary things and fabricating them to become miraculous you immediately raise the question of whether Joseph Smith did the same thing yeah and you shouldn't go there as a leader of the church yeah you don't want the members to ask that question and see you as a representative of exactly what it is that if Joseph Smith did that this whole Church's truth claims go out the window yeah it's just too close to home yeah yeah it is yeah to close and I'll just say as important as I think this episode is and as uh as you know bad as it I think it is to lie especially if you're someone who claims to speak to and for God and Jesus for me these these prevarications of Nelson pale in comparison to some of the most heinous things that he's presided over which is again the protection uh the protection of abusers at the expense of Vic victims systemically whether it's boy scouts or little girls or boys or teenagers or youth in the church um you know the whole Kurt makoni sexual abuse cover up scandals that have been plaguing Mormonism he has been presiding over that not to mention you know fighting same-sex marriage fighting same-sex love the lgbtq suicide epidemic that he has partially Prov presided over um not to mention you know the demot the demotion of women such as they second class citizens within the church and don't have Authority or power to exercise the priesthood or to hold basic offices in the church and I guess what's really timely is he's presided over the deception um you know kind of fraudulent activity in terms of how the church has hid its knowingly hid its Financial assets from the membership and from the world and literally created fraudulent shell companies and recruited members of the church to assign their names to documents um as accomplice in a fraud that the Securities Exchange Commission has condemned and finded the church for and that the IRS is is currently investigating like can't we all agree that these lies are really small potatoes for for the real harm that's been done by this man and by his his cohort yeah but I think they show how the other things can happen they show how he doesn't view he he views the law and what ought to be done as a barrier to Faith promotion and his overall mission to the church you know it's it's interesting the relationship the church has with the law I've said this before about when it comes to the Arizona case they said oh well we agree with the Supreme Court's decision we shouldn't have to report things so they'll chummy up to the law when it helps them but then when it comes to financial reporting they go oh the law is a barrier how do we get around it and so they create 13 shell companies to get around it so they'll they'll lean into law when it suits them what's right when it suits them but they have no quals about disregarding it and trying to get around it when it serves their purpose yeah and I think you know the line that Nelson said in 2019 we may not always tell people if they want to hear prophets are rarely popular but we will always teach the truth and it's just funny when you hear that knowing that he's told a bunch of stories that are just factually not true and to your earlier point you know for me these are important because they give a window into what how Nelson as as Nemo just said how Nelson operates but yeah I don't think that these are as important as the earlier foundational issues because if Joseph Smith made up the first vision and the priesthood restoration which as we detailed I believe he did if Joseph Smith authored The Book of Mormon which every basically every field of study tells you he did then yeah Nelson is a powerless man who is only there because people still believe that that the church is true and so I don't believe that the church is true and so to me Nel I don't know how I'm not phrasing this the best way but I think the earlier stuff's more important because if the church is not true there's no reason to worry to to believe and listen to what Nelson is doing today don't know if I'm making sense but it does matter because there are millions of people who are listening to these talks today and feeling that spirit and not understanding that what Nelson is doing um is not consistent with the church's own definition of honesty all right well I think we made our case today Mike thank you so much for your word here on LDS discussions uh you do great work and you're influencing a lot of people well I would say thanks to rfm because this entire episode was basically done through his podcast on the three Miracles and then him with Bill reel on the flight of death so really everything that I put together was just basically uh repurposing what they had already done so huge thanks to rfm and to Bill real on their their episode but rfms podcast from four years ago if you've not listened to it episode 84 it goes into more detail on mosm Beek the lady in the Hat and the November 15 policy I think it's a must listen to um to get even more details than we talked about today rfm how can people support you best financially so that you can do this full-time well I am doing it full-time now right and so full-time the thing is that when you're in a law practice and you're transferring out there's no such thing as a clear line of demarcation because I stopped taking new clients a year ago but I'm still representing clients because you know the wheels of Justice grind slow and all that you can go to radiofree mormon.org donate there it would be wonderful and very much appreciated I talk about Radio free Mormon and uh your donations keeping Radio free Mormon broadcasting Behind Enemy Lines well that's not just a slogan anymore that's actually the truth because it's not a hobby it's not something on the side it's not something in addition to my day job this is my sole source of income now so it's uh paying the bills it's putting food on the table it's uh Buy buying Marvel t-shirts it's doing everything so I really appreciate all the people who do support me encourage anyone who does listen to uh go there to radiofree mormon.org now click make a $5 a month donation and no I'd say 10 10 or 20 10 or 20 not five um I'll take whatever it is I'll take anything at this point honestly folks it'd be great just wonderful and I just did want to add that President Nelson he's amazing the heart surgeon who became the Prophet right he's not only better than president hinley he's better than every Prophet before he's actually jocking for position to be better than Joseph Smith and at this point in his career I will tell you that President Nelson is the mightiest Prophet who's ever lived so much so that not only does he receive Revelation from God God receives Revelation from him dear thanks rfm Nemo how can people support your good work uh uh they can they can come and hit the Donate button on my channel if they like uh they can just come and watch my show uh and come say hi and just have a good time that's how they can support me all right well Nemo we're really we're really grateful that you uh join us on this LDS discuss discussion series people love your contributions it was very nice that we that Nemo so if you don't want them to contribute to you then everybody take the contributions you would to Nemo it's it is my full-time job but you know it's fine I love it all right steal the bread from my mouth and give it to rfm no the there's a there the pie a rising tide lifts all shifts the pi is expanding and we're all going to be Mike you're going to be doing this fulltime soon I do not think so uh there there's no way I'm doing this fulltime I I would get burned out way too fast but I I do like I you know I would say in all in all truthfulness when I started going down the rabbit hole um rm's podcast was one of the ones I gravitated to because he would do these episodes where he put these these topics into a perspective that resonated in a Way Beyond just being upset you know his his episodes aren't super over the top angry or making fun of things and so I always appreciated the way he approached things and so if you've never listened to some of his older episodes you I know the wrong roads episode is a very famous one but just go through his back catalog it there's so much good stuff that even though it might be done four years ago it's still very relevant and very important to studying all this stuff so in all honesty I'm I'm very thankful that he was doing what he was doing um I know he's only been on a couple of our episodes but a lot of what he has done has been repurposed by me um along with the work of others so you know it it is very cool that um he's on today because this really is his work and um everyone should go out there and do what they can to support and His glory basically as as as Russell Nelson is to believing Mormons rfm is to postm Mormons I mean basically indeed yeah like I said he some of these you know um we're we're kind of I don't know when this is going to actually release but he did an episode on uh Kyle McKay's compelling reason to doubt and you listen to it in the way he just pulls some of the ideas from what McKay's talk is and explains him in a way that I wouldn't have picked up my own it's it's very cool and um I also recommend if you have not listened to the yeah I'm giving a lot here the um the Mormonism in the background I don't get this kind of love from Mike you I said were you around 4 years ago so anyways their episode on the Greek Salter incident on Mormonism live you need to listen to that one was one that turned me from someone who dismissed it outright to actually thinking there's more to it so that's how now it's getting weird Nation him Nation that's going have sounded so bad John because like we're probably slightly out of syn but I think I'm in time with you so yeah ha to the rfm Hail to the rfm that's cuz Nemo's playing the part of President Oaks in the hosana shout competition yeah yeah anyways this but thank you rfm for being here and thanks for for letting me steal all your work than thank you Mike you're very gracious I appreciate you I'm honored I'm flattered thank you really sincerely thanks every everybody for being here thanks guys and thanks for joining us today on Mormon stories podcast we appreciate uh all you do you can also uh support Mormon stories podcast by going to Mormon stories.org clicking on the Donate button becoming a monthly donor and uh we really appreciate Mike and this LDS discussion series please share it with anyone anyone who you think could benefit from it we uh we apologize that today didn't quite match the the tenor and the tone of what we have been trying to do so far but you know uh we're towards the end and you get an rfm you just got to roll with it because he's so brilliant thanks for joining us thanks for your support and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon stories podcast and at least a few more episodes of LDS discussions before the summer break uh take care everybody