Episode 63

The CES Letter vs. the Book of Mormon

Original Air Date: 2025-06-26 • Duration: 2h 6m

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This video serves as Part 2 of the "LDS Discussions" series analyzing the CES Letter regarding the Book of Mormon. In this episode (number 63 of the series), host John Dehlin is joined by Julia and Nemo the Mormon to cover questions 6 through 11 from Jeremy Runnells' letter 1-3.

The discussion focuses on dismantling apologetic defenses and contextualizing the Book of Mormon as a 19th-century creation rather than an ancient historical record.

Introduction and Defense of the CES Letter

The panel begins by addressing the "ad hominem" attacks frequently launched against Jeremy Runnells by apologists 4. They argue that attacking Runnells' character or questioning his sincerity is a distraction from the actual historical and factual concerns he raised 5, 6. The hosts emphasize that the validity of questions regarding polygamy, translation, or archaeology stands independent of Runnells' personal motivations 7.

Question 6: Archaeology and Geography

The panel discusses the complete lack of archaeological evidence supporting the Book of Mormon, particularly regarding the hill Cumorah 8.

  • The "Clean" Hill: They cite BYU archaeologist John E. Clark, who admitted that the hill in New York is archaeologically "clean," meaning there are no artifacts, walls, or trenches to support the claim of a massive battle involving millions of deaths 9, 10.
  • Geography Models: The group critiques the shift from the "Heartland" model (New York) to the "Mesoamerican" model. They note that early church leaders, including Joseph Fielding Smith, were adamant that Cumorah was in New York, yet modern apologists have moved the setting to Central America to account for the lack of evidence 8, 11.
  • Weak Evidence: The panel dismisses apologetic claims regarding finding "Nahom," cement, or barley as weak coincidences or scientifically insignificant compared to the overwhelming lack of evidence for Nephite civilization 12-14.

    • Question 7: Place Names

    Julia presents maps showing similarities between Book of Mormon locations and place names surrounding Joseph Smith in the 19th century 15.

  • Parallels: Examples include Onida, Rama, Teancum (Tecumseh), and Moroni (Comoros) 15, 16.
  • Context: While the panel agrees this isn't definitive proof of fabrication, it serves as evidence that Joseph could have drawn names from his immediate environment 17, 18.

    • Questions 8-10: Literary Influences

    The discussion moves to books published prior to the Book of Mormon that share similar themes or styles, suggesting Joseph Smith was influenced by the "cultural soup" of his time 19.

  • View of the Hebrews (Ethan Smith): The hosts discuss B.H. Roberts, a General Authority and church historian, who called the parallels between this book and the Book of Mormon a "serious menace" to Joseph Smith's claims 20. Both books share a meta-narrative of distinct tribes (one righteous, one savage/dark-skinned), the destruction of Jerusalem, and the gathering of Israel 21, 22.
  • The Late War: This 1819 textbook was written in "Jacoban English" (imitating the King James Bible) to teach school children about the War of 1812 23. The panel notes it uses the phrase "and it came to pass" dozens of times and includes similar phrasing about warriors and battles, demonstrating that writing in a pseudo-biblical style was a common genre of the time 16, 23.
  • The First Book of Napoleon: This text is cited as another example of the "late pseudo-biblical" style prevalent in the early 1800s, featuring phrasing similarities to the Book of Mormon 24.

    • The hosts clarify that these comparisons do not necessarily prove direct plagiarism (copy-pasting text) but rather demonstrate that the ideas, themes, and writing styles found in the Book of Mormon were already present in Joseph Smith's environment 19, 25.

    Question 11: Trinitarian Theology

    The video addresses the theology within the Book of Mormon, which reflects a Trinitarian (or Modalist) view—that God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are one being—rather than the distinct separation of personages taught in modern Mormonism 26.

  • Theological Evolution: The panel points out that Joseph Smith’s theology evolved over time. Early texts like the 1832 First Vision account and the original Book of Mormon describe one God, whereas later revelations (and edited versions of the First Vision) introduce separate beings 27, 28.
  • Textual Changes: They note that thousands of changes were made to the Book of Mormon, some specifically to alter this theology (e.g., changing "mother of God" to "mother of the Son of God") 26, 29.

    • The Translation Timeline

    Finally, the panel challenges the apologetic claim that Joseph Smith produced the book in a miraculous window of only 65 to 75 days 30. Julia presents a timeline showing that Joseph had 11 years (from 1818 to 1829) to study the Bible, develop stories, and formulate the narrative before dictating the final text 31. They argue that viewing the timeline this way makes the production of the book far less miraculous and much more plausible as a human creation 32, 33.

    To summarize the panel's conclusion with an analogy:Apologists often present the Book of Mormon as a "lightning strike"—a miraculous event that appeared out of nowhere, impossible to explain without divine intervention. However, this video argues that the Book of Mormon is more like a soup, where every ingredient—the "Jacoban" English style, the mound-builder myths, the local geography, and the Trinitarian theology—can be found sitting on the pantry shelf of the early 19th-century frontier where Joseph Smith lived.

    Episode Info

    Guests: Mike (LDS Discussions), Nemo the Mormon

    Related Article: LDS Discussions