Joseph Smith's Surrounding Influences in the Book of Mormon
Original Air Date: 2022-05-31
Here is a detailed summary of the video "Joseph Smith's Surrounding Influences in the Book of Mormon," based on the provided transcript.
Overview and Thesis
The video features host John Dehlin and Mike from LDS Discussions exploring the environmental and cultural influences present in the 19th century that appear within the Book of Mormon 1. The central thesis is that the text contains numerous "fingerprints" of Joseph Smith’s own time and place, suggesting that he is the author rather than the translator of an ancient record 2, 3. The hosts argue that when viewed cumulatively, these influences demonstrate that the book addresses 19th-century concerns and utilizes 19th-century literary styles that would be foreign to ancient Mesoamericans 4, 5.
The "Mound Builder" Myth
A significant portion of the discussion focuses on the Mound Builder Myth, a prevalent belief among white settlers in the early 1800s 6.
View of the Hebrews and B.H. Roberts
The video addresses View of the Hebrews, a book published by Ethan Smith (Oliver Cowdery’s pastor) prior to the Book of Mormon 13, 14.
Contemporary Literary Influences
To address the "King James" style of the Book of Mormon, the hosts examine other books from the era, such as The First Book of Napoleon and The Late War 19, 20.
Treasure Digging and Folk Magic
The hosts discuss how Joseph Smith’s background in treasure digging and folk magic was integrated into the Book of Mormon 21.
Anti-Masonic Sentiment
The inclusion of "secret combinations" in the Book of Mormon is linked to the intense anti-Masonic panic that occurred in the 1820s, particularly following the disappearance of William Morgan in 1826 27.
Biographical Inclusions
The video details instances where Joseph Smith appears to write his own family history and experiences into the text.
Conclusion
The episode concludes that these elements—when taken together—show that the Book of Mormon is not an ancient history but a 19th-century creation. The text prophesies of events known to Joseph Smith (like the Anthon visit) but remains vague on events after 1829, creating a "fingerprint" of the author's timeline 36, 37. The hosts suggest that acknowledging these sources requires one to accept that "no one but Joseph Smith could have been the one to write it" because it is so deeply rooted in his specific environment 2, 37.
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hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of mormon stories podcast i'm your host john dulin we are uh knee deep or waist deep in this amazing series we've been doing on mormon stories podcast looping in our dear friend mike from the ldsdiscussions.com website where we are exploring uh mormon truth claims and and uh for those who are just finding this episode disjointed from the others we've talked about golden plates we've talked about uh book of mormon translation we've talked about joseph smith's treasure digging we've talked about 116 lost pages um wherever you are in the process we'll be talking about book of a book of uh um we'll be talking about the noah's flood the tower of babel adam and eve like all of these things are really important issues that have really important implications um for the mormon church's truth claims and today the topic that we're going to be covering is joseph smith's surrounding influences in the book of mormon or another way to say that is you know what what information or experiences or news stories or literature was joseph smith exposed to that if joseph smith was the actual author of the book of mormon if it wasn't a translation of ancient records as we cover in the translation episode if it wasn't that then then where did joseph smith get the material that created the book of mormon well that's what today's episode is about you can go to the uh essay at ldsdiscussions.com influences for an exhaustive lengthy discussion of today's episode but for kind of uh edited abridged if we can use that term uh audio and video version of that essay we bring on mike hey mike thanks for joining us hey everybody this is going to be good so where are we where should we begin so you know we can kind of jump in so this is our seventh episode i think so the first six kind of take you from treasure digging to the gold plates to the translation to the lost 116 pages in dna and this is where we're going to start to you know look at the text itself we've been doing that a little bit more the last few episodes and um kind of like john said this is what we're looking at when um we talk about joseph smith being able to write the book of mormon um we're trying to figure out what sources he was using that were in his milieu so we talk about you know the bible the king james bible we've mentioned that a few times and that's important but now we're going to look at some of the things that were happening around him um at the time he was writing the book of mormon or shortly before it that end up in the book of mormon and this really is not by any stretch um a full look at what he of all of the events that would be in there we could go on for hours about this these are the ones i feel are the most important to show us that not only um could the book of mormon not have been written before the 1820s but that nobody but joseph smith could have been the one to write it i love it all right so let's go to uh the first slide yeah and so you know we kind of talked about this in our previous overviews and you know the book of mormon gives us a lot of clues that tell us it was composed in the 19th century and joseph smith leaves a lot of fingerprints on the text that tell us this and the king james bible is the easiest way to know that the book of mormon is not an ancient text because of the fact that the king james bible is a translation that would not have been done until about 1611. um we believe joseph smith used the 1769 king james bible so the book of mormon could not have been written before that in the form we have it today um but like i said the bigger problem is the fact that beyond the bible we have a lot of events and a lot of ideas that are really unique to joseph smith's time and place that find their way into the book of mormon that we are told as an ancient historical text and that again is a really good indicator that this is not an ancient text and we began with treasure digging because of the way it influences the book of mormon but it wasn't just that area that kind of folk magic world view that ends up in what is claimed to be an ancient text being translated from god yeah and and i just want to say just really quickly that when we talk about the king james version of the bible showing up in the book of mormon um for people who haven't studied historical criticism or biblical criticism or how documents get analyzed and authenticated this is a it's basically a branch of scholarship it's almost a form of textual science right where scholars study if you've got these documents that are either verifiably uh authentic or you've got some documents that you're trying to decide if they are authentic you can study the text of manuscripts or documents and they give you clues to tell you whether or not those documents are authentic again we're going to all think well this is holy scripture and so you can't do that with the book of mormon but what we're trying to do is just apply logic and and reasoning and science and scholarship for those who are genuinely interested in the question of whether or not the book of mormon is what it claims to be and so so a classic um technique is like you know i've talked about a document that had abraham lincoln using an iphone you would know that if there was a document where abraham lincoln writes about using his iphone you would know that it was an inauthentic document because you would know that that's anachronistic and that the iphone you know uh isn't even created until over you know 100 years later it makes no sense that the king james bible is appearing in what's supposed to be an ancient record written by mesoamericans between 600 bc and 400 a.d the king james bible wasn't wasn't put together until centuries later and that should be uh it should be a smoking gun in and of itself and i i hate to go through that much explanation of what you said so succinctly but for someone just as a new mormon just coming to this with fresh eyes not knowing anything about historical criticism or biblical scholarship we may have gone a tiny bit too fast yeah no it's true and like you know we talk about anachronisms which we're gonna get into and i think our next episode of the one after that and this is a little different because these aren't anachronisms but these are things that should not be in a ancient text if it's ancient because of the fact that they're just a lot of them are events that are happening around joseph and so um they're hard to prove as anachronisms because they're more influences and ideas but so we're going to go into that and kind of show why they're popping up and where they're coming from and um so if we go to the next slide this is one we've we've hammered on a bit and we've got you know a full overview episode that's going to come on a few weeks but the king james bible in the book of mormon tells us it could not be an ancient text until after six because the king james bible wasn't until 1611 and likely joseph's version was the 1769 um and then we're also gonna have a series of episodes after we kind of get through these early book of mormon ones that are going to go over uh the assumptions that joseph smith makes about the literalness of a biblical story such as adam and eve tower of babel global flood which we know today are not historical stories and because joseph smith is bringing mythical stories from genesis into the book of mormon as literal stories we can show that the book of mormon is not a historical record because it's relying on a text that is not historical and beyond those those stories from genesis we have him bringing material into the book of mormon that would not be accessible to the book of mormon people and in some cases he's bringing in material that wasn't original to the text itself of the bible those are clues that tell us that joseph smith is working from a foundational text that was written long after the book of mormon times without realizing that parts of them parts of that record in the king james bible is not original and authentic to the text yeah and i'm already coming up for me as our tight and loose translation of the mormon episode we know that he's reading a stone that's telling him word for word and and so why is it telling him king james bible english right yeah and one thing is like from an apologetic standpoint they'll say well the king james english is the way that people spoke in a scriptural way so a lot of people in joseph's time were using that to sound more scriptural i mean it's the same reason that in you know church on sunday you know you hear thee and thou and all that and and i get that uh but the problem is it's not so much the king james language because again if you believe they spoke in hebrew or egyptian um it would it would be meaningless to us right like at joseph smith's time they'd have no idea how to even read it so i get that you could make the argument that god would translate it into king james english because that would be um understandable to joseph and it was the way people read text when they were trying to privilege it and present it as something sacred right the problem is it goes beyond the english it's he's bringing to believe this god is bringing through the stone material that was not original to the bible that joseph smith thought was they're bringing translation errors they're bringing in stories that are not historical presenting them as historical in the americas and all those things add up to tell us that these fingerprints are all over these pages these clues are everywhere and they're all telling us that either god is giving joseph smith fake information in order to promote faith or joseph smith is the author and he's using ideas that are around him to create this book which we know joseph was a good storyteller from treasure digging and so the idea that he could not weave a story just does not make sense given what we know about how he was able to charm people into looking for buried treasure and paying him to do so it's it there's there's a lot of of ways we can show how joseph did this and and so the king james bible is the foundational text but like you said it's riddled with problems that make their way into another text that's claiming to be ancient and so when you bring in errors from another text it immediately tells you that there you know john hammer did a couple episodes with you on how the book of mormon was composed and his whole thing was if you want to make an argument that there's this ancient core and joseph smith's writing all around that core with his own worldview you could take that position but you still have to show where that is and there's no ancient core that anyone can point to with any evidence whatsoever and in fact a lot of evidence against it and so that's the problem with the king james bible is the ancient core of the book of mormon really is the king james bible except he's pulling in parts that are historically either not happening or not authentic to the text all right let's continue yeah so if we continue on um so the next king james bible is the first yes we did that one and this next one this to me builder myth this is the most important one of all to me and it's one that most members have no idea what you're talking about i've brought this up to a number of people throughout the last few years and every time i shouldn't say every time but most of the time when they're either new into looking into this stuff or they haven't looked into it they have no idea what you're talking about but the mound builder myth is this idea that originated when the european settlers came to america and so they see all these mounds that are built up around all of the earth that they're basically settling into and then they see the native americans who they believe to be this wild savage dark-skinned race and they are effectively trying to understand how does a civilization that is dark-skinned that doesn't seem as sophisticated as them possibly build up these mounds and these civilizations and so they begin to create this myth that the mounds were belong to this lost superior race of white people just like themselves and in the mounds uh where the buried remains of the native americans but since it was just bones you know the white settlers created this myth that these were the remains of these lost civilizations and these fortifications and that this ancient white superior race was eradicated by this dark savage indians and if this sounds familiar it's because the mound builder myth largely mirrors what the book of mormon is trying to create an origin story for i mean this is the book of mormon story being put into the text from a myth that is all around joseph smith yeah and i was just talking to my dad about this like five minutes ago but you know if you are raised in utah or texas in the 1970s and 80s and you read the book of mormon you're like oh wow this is cool this is new information dark-skinned and light-skinned native americans and it just seems amazing and fantastic until you realize that there were probably 10 if not 20 books written let's just say between 1810 and 1830 including view of the hebrews that algae had access to that perpetuate this idea of a light-skinned and a dark-skinned group of native americans even thomas jefferson going back into the 1700s was uh you know you could find evidence of this myth and so and and so when we talk about surrounding influences to joseph smith being written into the book of mormon you would expect the mound builder myth to be written into the book of mormon yeah um but that that makes it suspicious right it does well yeah it makes us suspicious and it's one of the things that's kind of funny is you hear people when they leave the church and i have felt this to a certain extent you when when you lose faith and you discover all this stuff and you all of a sudden you go this doesn't add up and then all of a sudden you go back and you start reading through some of this stuff again and when you read it with that different set of eyes and you read it with a set of eyes that's more critical you go how in the world did i think this made sense um but when joseph smith would have produced this in the 1820s this actually would have resonated with a lot of people because it's answering one of the biggest questions on the minds of people which is where do these native americans come from and it's confirming the myths that were being perpetuated at the time so in a lot of ways the book of mormon serves as a confirmation from the voice of god to the people of the 1820s and 30s you know that this is how native americans got here and not only that but it's our job to convert them back to christ and so you know like you said not only would you expect it to be incorporated in the book of mormon but this is why early people probably gravitated to the book of mormon and said this makes sense because it fits into that worldview a lot more than it fits into ours and we've talked about this in previous episodes but i'll just touch on it super briefly i think thomas ferguson would be a good source for this as well no yeah thomas murphy says murphy but just it you know when you're when you're frontier europeans basically displacing and killing and even committing genocide on the native americans that are there um you have to dehumanize them you have to um just like with slavery you have to believe that they're an inferior race or how else can you justify killing them and taking their land and stealing their possessions and so then if you've dehumanized them but that you then you come across ruins and artifacts or even structures or mounds or artistic artifacts that show actually an advanced civilization you don't square that with these savages that you're dehumanizing and this is where the idea of a light race versus a dark race comes up which makes the whole mound builder myth not only um a clear influence to the lamanite nephite narrative in the book of mormon it also adds this super dark super racist narrative to the book of mormon that's so insulting to the natives because it it it has built into it the idea that the dark-skinned people can't do technically innovative or advanced stuff only likes light-skinned people can and then the dark dark dark native americans are savages and brutes and deserve to be killed and god wants them killed and god makes them dark because they're they're he wants them to be loathsome and ugly to the white-skinned it it's a really dark narrative that um that we will cover in other episodes yeah well and that's just it i mean it's it's we'll get to throughout this one too but yeah the fact is you're creating a narrative to to basically steal the identity of these people to put your identity on to them so that you can give yourself the justification to steal the land by saying effectively this land used to belong to our white ancestors you stole it we're taking it back and that's a pretty horrific thing and it's one of those things i never even knew about until i started studying this stuff which makes me feel bad because you know this that myth goes beyond mormonism i mean it just goes beyond uh or it goes to how we you know kind of came into the the country and and took land and created identities to do it which is you know something that i wish i'd known earlier just because it's it's a pretty horrible thing it's something we should all know so we can learn from it um but the most important point for today is that this was the this was the understanding that joseph is swimming in and so of course it makes it into the book of mormon but it's not original to the book of mormon yes you can almost say it's an idea that was plagiarized into the book of mormon exactly and that's why it's so important and so um like i said that you know basically they come in these mounds are buried all over the place and so the the whole narrative of the book of mormon is gonna is gonna mirror this and so if you go to the next slide um this is a poem that is written by william cole and bryan it's called the prairies i think it was written in 1831 or 32 but he had nothing to do with mormonism and the poem goes let the mighty mounds that overlook the rivers or that rise in the dim forest crowded with old oaks answer a race that has long passed away built them a disciplined and populous race in a forgotten language and old tunes from instruments of unremembered form gave the soft winds a voice the red man came the roaming hunter tribes warlike and fierce and the mountain builders vanished from the earth all is gone all saved the piles of earth that hold their bones the platforms where they worshipped unknown gods the barriers which they builded from the soil to keep the foe at bay until over the walls the wild beleaguers broke one by one the strongholds of the plane plane was were forced and heaped with corpses the brown vultures of the wood flocked to those vast uncovered sept came in their stairways yeah yeah and and sat unscared and silent at their feast happily some solitary fugitive lurking in the martian forest till the sense of desolation and fear became bitterest then death yielded himself to die and what does this have to do with uh the mound builder myth well this is a description of the mount builder myth which is to say that they were this this disciplined and populous race and then the red man came they basically killed everybody and then you know now we got all those piles of earth holding their bones okay sorry a race that long has passed away yeah yeah it's referencing a race that existed prior to the red map yes yeah yeah and what's really funny about this one is and i don't think this is necessarily intentional but the very end it talks about there's one one fugitive who escaped from this ancient race who just lurked by himself until he died and it's just moroni right sounds a little bit like what you see in the book of mormon and so and obviously this is not someone connected with mormonism or else they wouldn't say worshiped unknown gods i mean so you know i know some people say it was written i think it was written two or three years after the book of mormon but this guy had nothing to do with mormonism and you could tell that from the text but that is just to say how um embedded this myth was in the culture that joseph smith lived in and the fact is this story could be a or this poem could be a poem someone wrote about the book of mormon and you would never know the difference because it literally tracks perfectly with the book of mormon story and so it just shows how important the mountain builder myth is to the book of mormon and why i think sometimes um when i talk to people who don't know about it you want to explain to them like you have no idea how big of a deal this is um because it mirrors it so well and it also explains a lot of the things because people will say well how could joseph smith have just come up with these ideas on its own it's like because he's pulling from things that are familiar to him and then expanding on him just like we see him do when he expands on genesis and the joseph smith translation he is really good at taking ideas and expanding on them and we can see that here and i don't know if you referenced this but i'm pretty sure gerald and sandra tanner have found somewhere between like 10 and 20 books or references to uh the light skinned dark skinned mound builder myth stuff in books in the 10 to 20 years leading up to the book of mormon no i i didn't reference that so that's actually a great data point because again it shows that this is like because people will say i mention those people and they'll say well do you have evidence that joseph smith was talking about it or had a book or whatever and i'm like no i don't but this is not like something that's in an obscure book this is something that's a predominant idea and to your point the fact that the tanner's found a bunch of books that led up to the book of mormon it tells you that this is not this is not some crackpot theory that like is you know we're we're cherry-picking to say that mormonism you know isn't true this is a predominant idea that was so embedded and we're gonna have some quotes going coming up that just tell you like this is not again some small thing this is a very big and widespread idea and you know what i i'm actually going to call it just a 10-second audible there's actually a book called the mound builder myth fake history in the hunt for a lost white race by jason colavito and i'm going to include a link to this in the show notes because that book um provides a lot of the histories that i'm that i'm talking about and dan vogel's got a lot in his early books and um so i mean it's it's so widely um known and documented that we can show that joseph smith would have been familiar and living within this world so i mean it's to argue that joseph smith wouldn't have known this and just it just happened to me in the book of mormon it's just it's without any um i don't know it's just it's beyond you know any reasonable logic to me just because of how established this theory has is by the time joseph smith writes the book of mormon all right let's go to the next slide so the next slide on the left is just a picture of one of the mounds and so this one i believe is still one you can go and visit and um on the right is a picture if you if you're if you're watching this you can see all those dots in the yellow those are all the mounds that were documented so you can see a lot of them in ohio and the midwest and then you got some that are up in like upper western new york and so it's just to say that this is a really fascinating thing to people because there's all these mountains everywhere it's not just one or two mountains that you're looking at and creating a story it really does point to this big race that would have created all these mountains across the lands and remember at this time they're all of these european settlers who are trying to explore this land and go further out and all that and that's why they're coming across all these mounds and saying where in the world did these come from and this is just kind of illustrating what they were seeing and why they thought they were fortifications from this ancient superior race that were building these really nicely kind of constructed mounds and i'm pretty sure john hamer does an episode where he talks a lot about this he does yeah he does here on mormon stories yeah he does a good job with that and so um him and dan vogel both talked about a lot and it's really helpful just to to understand where they come from and like i said in previous episodes a lot of what i've done is pulling from the work of other people and so in that case i am pulling from some of the work of john hamer for sure dan vogel for sure um because they both have such good insight into this and you know it needs to be shared because it needs to be understood that's your genius mike is integration i don't know about that but you know it's like i joked in one of the earlier episodes and i think mike you're an inspired syncretist i was gonna say like i feel like my my overview is a bricklage overview too so you know it's like when people talk about joseph smith brick lodge i'm like that's kind of what i did too because i'm i'm pulling from all these surrounding sources around me and i'm trying to put it together in a way that makes sense um the difference you're out bricolaging the brigade yeah i guess the difference is i'm just doing it myself and not claiming any divine power but yeah and so um william henry harrison and if you've ever if you're a fan of the simpsons who died in 30 days and was president um he has this quote about the mountain builders so remember this is the guy who was president if a man visited the ohio river or ohio river valley prior to the to white settlement his eyes might have rested on some stupendous mound or lengthened line of ramparts which proved that the country had once been possessed by numerous and laborious people but he would have seen also in dubia indubitable evidences that centuries had passed away since these remains had been occupied by those for whose use they had been reared he would not fail to arrive at the conclusion that their departure must have been a matter of necessity for no people at any state of civilization would have willingly abandoned such a country we learned first from the extensive country covered by their remains that they were numerous people secondly that they were congregated in considerable cities confirmed the fact that they had a national religion in the celebration of which all that was pompous gorgeous and imposing that a semi-barbarian nation could devise was brought into occasional display that there were a numerous priesthood and altars often smoking with hecatoms of victims this much do these ancient remains furnish us as to the condition and character of the people who erected them we refer again to the works they have left us to gain what knowledge we can of the cause and manner of their leaving the ohio valley for the reasons formerly stated i assume the fact that they were compelled to fly from a more numerous or more gallant people no doubt the contest was long and bloody and that the country so long their residence was not abandoned to the rivals until their numbers were much too reduced to continue the contest taking into consideration all their circumstances i have come to the conclusion that these people were assailed both from the northern and from southern frontier made to recede from both directions and that their last effort at resistance was made on the banks of the ohio and again this is this is the mound builder myth this is the book of mormon talking about this numerous people being taken from another race um to the point where they just were eradicated and you know that they had religion that they had priesthood all of this stuff is directly in the book of mormon now it's possible that william henry harrison read the book of mormon and then wrote this out i'm joking yeah i mean that's the and that would probably be the argument right that the book of mormon was spreading so fast that it was that it was actually affecting the culture but yeah i mean this is just it is so you know um detailed and all of these details end up in the book of mormon when william henry harrison wrote this these paragraphs i have to look that up because i'm trying to think he was president it looks like he was president um in 1841 so i mean it could have i don't live because only present for 30 days i'm not sure exactly when he said this but um but yeah i mean that that's the thing or you have these these quotes from these people who um are respected and influential and it's matching it's kind of like we had the quote from benjamin franklin on treasure digging in our first episode and it's like you know we want to of course try to i don't know um dismiss what they're saying about these things uh because we want to privilege the book of mormon but at the same time these statements just match up so perfectly and so to try to um in my opinion to try to to say that these two things aren't connected i think it's just not fair and again you know i know you were joking and and i'm trying to look up the quote it looks like it might be 1838 but we may have to look and and clarify that for the next time um these are just really important quotes because it's illustrating in such a i think a really definitive way that the book of mormon is coming from a culture that absolutely believes um that these stories were what led to the native americans i mean all you need is the his view of the hebrews which came out before the book of mormon yeah which has the mound builder myth and dark and light skinned but but again the tanners refer to at least 10 others so we don't need to we don't really yeah dig into that this is just one example of many it is and again this even i can't tell it looks like the document i'm pulling it from the documents from 1838 so you probably said it before that at some point but um even still it just shows that in those 1820s and 30s and 40s that this is what people are teaching each other and it matches the book of mormon perfectly okay makes sense and you know again i keep harping on this but the reason the mountain builder is so important is because it was such a widely idea um why they believed idea in his time but it's problematic because it begins mirroring the story of the book of mormon and we've talked about this before and when we get into the biblical stuff this is gonna be really important because if you put a myth into a book as literal history and then it turns out to not be true historically everything that comes from it is going to be false and so in this case we're using book joseph smith is using what is effectively a myth writing it directly into the book of mormon to tell the history of the native americans and now that we know that from dna and from migrations that people arrived here 25 000 years ago and there was not some ancient white race that was eradicated um we have the ability to read the mayan script there's no mention of anything to do with the book of mormon or a white race that overtook that was overtaken through wars um we can tell that this myth is being used by white settlers to impose their beliefs on the identity of the indians as a way to both dehumanize them and as a justification because they are using the story to not only say that these people are savages but that we are justified to take the land back because our ancestors this ancient white race actually should have been the correct owners of the land and so they're taking away these people's identities which is horrible but then they're using that as the justification in their minds to take it back which is even worse yeah and so just like uh if the book of the book of mormon is based on the tower babel the global flood adam and eve we've already showed uh or we will show that that those events didn't happen yeah if the if if the mound builder myth is a myth and it there's no basis in history or reality to it against another um it's another uh sandy foundation for the book i was going to say fraudulent but i don't want to be offensive so i'll say yeah no i mean it's it's it's just it's a problem yeah i mean if you build your foundation on something that's not true you're not going to get historical things from why it works build this house upon the rock yeah and that's just it and so one quote on the mountain builder myth for now is from archaeologist bradley leper and he said um to the ohio dispatch this is just from two years ago um prior to the revolutionary war the fact that the mounds had been built by american indians was so well established that it required neither explanation nor defense by the time andrew jackson became president in 1829 however that idea had become an inconvenient truth in his efforts to remove india american indian tribes from their lands in the eastern united states jackson claimed that the mountains had been built by an unknown people who were exterminated by the existing savage tribes therefore the united states government was perfectly justified in removing those tribes from the lands that they had stolen from the supposedly more civilized lost race of mound builders and so again this is just saying that this was something that when people first got here they knew that this was not some sort of ancient white race because they were the first ones here they knew they were part of what the indian native americans were doing and then all of a sudden there seems to be this movement around joseph smith's time look at the 1829 uh that's when the book of mormon's written and all of a sudden there's this national push to say that this was the savage race that eradicated the white people and that this is the justification for taking the land back and the book of mormon kind of makes that point that because they are this savage race that they are going to deal with being you know killed and punished and all that and so it all fits together okay yeah i think we've made this point so a mound builder myth is a problem and it was uh joseph was swimming in that myth all right yeah i got one segment get this dodge real quick i'm so so in addition to the man builder myth uh the next thing that we have that we've covered in many episodes that shannon caldwell montez uh specifically helped us understand is the book view of the hebrews um it's a book uh that uh uh was written by i i'm stalling a bit for mike but it's a book that was written by you yes who i i believe was all oliver calgary's minister um uh you know in oliver cowdery's hometown yep and uh and it's a it's something that we're going to talk about influence bh roberts as well so don't don't worry about your dog no that's fine i don't they're they see someone outside but anyways so this is one of the areas where i split with a lot of critics and the reason is because we see with the view of the hebrews a lot of the same similar themes that we're going to see in the book of mormon and because of that it's going to lead a lot of critics to say that joseph smith plagiarized the book of mormon and i think that's one of those things that's kind of like gotten to the point where it's such a large part of the ces letters uh what people take away from it you know and the fact that ethan smith and all them are going to be um accessible to oliver cowdery it kind of leads to this idea that joseph smith gets this text oliver caldery comes in and meets up with joseph smith and all of a sudden they're they're translating so much faster they're dictating so much faster and you go isn't that convenient right and for me i look at this the other way around and i say that the view of the hebrews is going to come from the same place as the mount builder myth which means the view of the hebrews and the book of mormon are both working off the same world view so of course they're going to have similarities because they're both working off of these same beliefs from this this time frame and so it doesn't mean that the view of the hebrews is not important because it gives us a really good window into the beliefs of that worldview but to me it's more that joseph smith is pulling from the mound builder myth than it is that he's pulling from view of the hebrews even though it's really important that they're both pulling from the same mindset and and for just a really quick primer for those who don't know anything about the view of the hebrews i have no idea what we're talking about who are joining us kind of live um oliver caldery's minister i believe uh ethan smith i think was his name um before the book of mormon was ever created before oliver calgary serves as joseph smith's scribe he comes up with a book called the view of the hebrews that basically um many have found some parallels to the book of mormon but it's got some dark-skinned and some light-skinned people and in the end the dark-skinned people kill off the light-skinned people now if you actually go and we did a whole episode with rfm about this if you actually go and read view of the hebrews and then read the book of mormon it's hard to claim that one was plagiarized that the book of mormon was plagiarized from view of the hebrews and that becomes um an argument or an accusation that apologists like yeah because if you read the two they seem so foreign that even though they share some similarities it makes it really easy for an apologist to say that critics are stretching and so again to restate what you just said you you feel it's it's much more prudent and wise to say that both the book of mormon and the hebrews share a common milieu of cultural understanding that influences them both but to claim that the book of mormon is a plagiarism from view of the hebrews is an overstretch that leaves you vulnerable to apologist discrediting you yeah and and that's the thing like and it's one of those things that when i first started doing the the deep dive into all this when you read the similarities you're like holy crap he totally plagiarized this i mean it when you when you read the the similarities it's it's so good so close but then when you start to look at the two texts like you said they're not really there's no real good way to say plagiarize unless you were to say he read the view of the hebrews and like some of the ideas and brought him in but as i was saying that's well it's not plagiarism and those ideas are both coming from from a secondary source which is the mound builder myth and this this idea that they must be the lost tribes and all that and so um anyways that's just my way of saying i you know a lot of people will say oh he plagiarized from from you the hebrews i'm like i don't think that he did i think they were both coming from a similar source kind of like you know when you see two movies come out at the same time that are in the same genre like armageddon and deep impact or ants in a bug's life they you're like well are they plagiarizing did the answer dance take from a bug's life it's like no they probably just there's this this this trend of it bugs with kids and they both make a bugs movie and deep impact and armageddon and so um i think that's really important to note that being said it's also a really good um look at the surrounding influences because of the fact that the mountain builder myth is so influential it's like you said leading to these other books such as view of the hebrews and that's really important all right and so to the next slide yeah before we get out of the view of the hebrews i do want to cover this a little bit um oh no go you go to the next slide um just to mention you had done some episodes with shannon caldwell montez about um bh roberts and his study his deep dive into the book of mormon and i really would recommend people who are interested to listen to those or watch them later because um it goes into a lot more detail on the view of the hebrews but also in how bh roberts who was a general authority of the church and he was considered one of their best you know kind of like scholars and he took it upon himself to do this deep dive i think he was asked a question through a letter and he started doing it and all of a sudden by the end it sure seemed like he he lost faith in the book of mormon being a historical book but um he had put together this writings that he presented to the church's leadership and in that he said did ethan ethan smith's view the hebrew furnished structural material for joseph smith's book of mormon it has been pointed out in these pages that there are many things in the former book that may well have suggested many major things in the other not a few things merely one or two or a half dozen but many and it is this fact of many things of similarity and the cumulative force of them that makes it that makes them so serious and menace to joseph smith's story of the book of mormon's origin and i think that's really important to note again that at this point i don't know that bh roberts was ever claiming plagiarism but just to say that they are pulling so many similarities that even though there are a lot of differences and again i do not believe there was plagiarism here it just shows that they're cut these ideas are so similar that they have to come from a similar source it's um kind of like when they do textual um criticism of the gospels and they say that matthew and luke are taking from mark because you can see that they're both reading mark as a source text and pulling similar ideas and that that's why they have the likelihood of a cue source which is to say that there's these sayings of jesus because matthew and luke are pulling these these ideas and these quotes together that are so similar and there's no historical indication that they're writing off working off each other's stuff so there has to be a similar source that they're getting ideas from and it's the same thing here where the book of mormon and view of the hebrews are both pulling from the mound builder myth and they might not have everything in lockstep there's differences but there's so many similarities it's because they're coming from the same worldview yeah and to just tease out this the the words so serious a menace not only is that a a mormon general authority and at the time he was i believe the church's historian yeah not only is a a major general authority who's very prominent calling the parallels a serious menace we have this shannon caldwell episode of the secret mormon meetings of 1952 which is separate from the episode of did yes roberts loses testimony of the book of mormon and in the secret mormon meetings of 1922 episode which are well chronicled bh roberts calls like this three-day meeting with the first presidency quorum of the 12 and all the 70s and spends multiple days laying out all the problems with the book of mormon and this was a it's a key episode it's a key moment in mormon history and for me it was this key light bulb aha moment where i realized that the brethren if you add to that the new york times um publishing front page problems with the book of abraham uh translation and the facsimiles and stuff in like 1912. you realize that the brethren have known about the the um historical problems with both the book of abraham and the book of mormon they've known for over a century and uh which then which then presents the problem of how we've been misled for so long when the brethren knew better but that's another podcast episode yeah and that's a good one people should listen to because it's important and our next slide actually kind of is from um shannon colamontes thesis and so um she says related to the second document was a third called a parallel it was created by bh roberts in 1927 as a way to summarize a portion of the second paper as he wrestled with whether or not to present his second study to church officials it was 18 type pages showing the uncanny similarities between the book of mormon and a view of the hebrews a few of the mentioned similarities include the migration of a group of jewish people from jerusalem to the uninhabited american continent by boat a single common hebrew linguistic and ancestral origin for all native americans a division of those people into civilized and uncivilized groups inspired prophets teaching a monotheistic religion wars between the two groups resulting in the total annihilation of the civilized portion in a buried book telling their history written in a form of egyptian hieroglyphics and so again i don't think that joseph plagiarized but i'm just saying that these are ideas that are being talked about to the point where they're in two prominent books view of the hebrews book of mormon they're coming from a shared milieu that is creating this origin story for the native americans as a way to take the land back in their minds and so there's a chance joseph smith read it and maybe wanted to incorporate some of those ideas we don't know but there's no i mean i don't think there's any way he directly plagiarized the book but it does show that these ideas are being spread throughout america at this time because people are trying to figure out the origin story for for the native americans and more importantly because of the fact there's a lot of religious fervor in the area they need to fit the origin story of the native americans into 19th century christianity and so that's why you see the book of mormon try to weave that thread uh to try to make the native americans origin story fit into 19th century christology and why you see so much that in the book of mormon because you're trying to write their origin story in a way that works with your own worldview and as long as you don't have modern archaeology modern anthropology modern linguistics linguistics modern genetics uh you you have no way to disprove these sorts of theories right so you use the bible as your view of the world which includes a literal flood and a tower of bountiful and adam and eve and a six thousand year earth and and then you kind of just look around you and make make something up yeah and that's just it i mean you're trying to fit it you have you believe you have a history book in the bible and you're trying to find a way to make this unknown story fit into that and this is how it happens and this list i mean viewers and listeners pause this episode and re-read this because mike's reading of it doesn't really communicate each of these the parallels between uh the you know between the two books this is bh roberts saying these are devastating parallels yeah this is not jeremy runnels or a letter from my wife or you know um rfm or john deland this is bh roberts writing this in 1927 and so when you have critics go how dare somebody look at the similarities bh roberts did in 1927 so if you want to attack jeremy reynolds you should attack bh roberts too if you're an apologist and at the same time you know i think um again i'll reiterate i don't think that there was plagiarism i know that's where i split from some people but at the same time the the parallels are still there regardless of that and you still do have to try to figure out what that means and also mormons ask yourself why you've never really heard of bh roberts and this analysis yeah i mean there's a reason this isn't going to be in your well no i mean that's the thing there's a reason this isn't going to be in your your enzyme magazines or in your general conference talks or school curriculum right yeah and so this was kept from you because it was so problematic yeah i mean it's well known and so um the next one is the first book of napoleon this is another one that people will cite as a source of plagiarism and again i don't believe that this is but again it gives in a world view into how books were being written at the same time as the book of mormon and so just to read a sample from the first book of napoleon and behold it came to pass in these latter days that an evil spirit arose on the face of the earth and greatly troubled the sons of men and this spirit seized upon and spread amongst the people who dwell in the land of gaul now in this people the fear of the lord had not been for many generations and they had become a corrupt and perverse people and their chief priests and the nobles of the land and the learned man thereof had become wicked in the imaginations of their hearts and in the practices of their lives it's just you know again it just shows the writing style and stuff kind of matches and again if we're going too fast there's going to be people new to this that don't have anything the first book of napoleon is this book that would have been written around joseph smith's day joseph smith would have had access to that sounds like the text could have literally been pulled from the book of mormon what mike just read sounds like the book of mormon but instead it was a style it's basically a bunch of people growing up reading king james bible learning king james english and then they'll write fiction that sounds like king james english from the bible and these books predate joseph smith and if they don't share content or word you know phrases or phraseology which they do they definitely show or or provide um you know an explanation for the style that joseph smith would have used to write the book of mormon yeah i think that's a great way to look at it and yeah that's just it like so for me the value of these books uh especially the first book of napoleon and the next one go over is that it shows that people in his time and place we're writing in a style that mirrors the way joseph smith wrote the book of mormon which is to say this kind of um king james formal english and that there's a lot of phrases being used in both because it's a common um use of phrasing that was being used in that in that time to sound more authoritative uh sacred scriptural and so the fact that they end up in the book of mormon tells you um that joseph smith is aware of how people are presenting stories presenting sermons presenting all of these things and so these influences are influencing him as he's writing the text to put it in a way that would be both familiar to the people of his time and would seem to be in the writing style that would be received by people as more scriptural as opposed to if he was writing kind of in his day-to-day talk yeah so this next excerpt comes from not the first book of napoleon but comes from a book called the late war and as you read it i would just ask viewers and listeners as you're listening to this text could it have been included in the book of mormon you know without some good adjectives or nouns this is this is another book that was written before the book of mormon uh it was accessible to joseph smith i believe they found it they found that it was in his life his hometown library again i don't think he plagiarized and i'm just trying to read this because as john said this is to show that yes people then were writing in this style so when you see in the book of mormon to think oh my goodness this is so unique and out of the box it really is not and so we're going to read this one paragraph and it says and it came to pass in the 1815th year of the christian era in the first month of the year and on the eighth day of the month being on the sabbath day which as it is written in the scriptures thou shalt remember and keep holy that the mighty army of the king which had moved out of the strong ships of britain came in their strength to make conquest on the territory of colombia which lieth to the south and again we could go on there's uh obviously if you've read the csl you've seen a lot more where they show similar phrasing it uses a lot of the king james phrases that joseph uses i believe they have phrases and they're like works of curious worksmanship stuff like that so i mean it just shows that people were talking in these stories in that kind of style and language and the fact that it's in the book of mormon it shows you that it's also a product of the same time in my opinion we'll include a link uh through the ces letter in in the show notes as well all right so not not so that explains some of the the writing style in the book of mormon next we we've already had an episode on treasure digging we kind of covered this briefly but it turns out that the act of folk magic treasure digging that joseph smith and his dad were involved with along with a lot of the witnesses of the book of mormon five to ten years before the book of mormon was ever written that folk magic treasure [ __ ] ends up as a practice in the book of mormon yeah and the one thing real quick about the late wars um if you guys do read the ces letter and you should read you know the fair mormon response to the the the comparisons between the late war and the book of mormon that jeremy put to i don't know if he put it together i think someone else didn't he has it in there and when you read the fair mormon response you'll notice that they keep saying how much you have to go through to put those together how much you have to cut out of the late war and i agree with that that's why i don't think he plagiarized but i think also what fair mormon's response leaves out is the fact that that is a very similar writing style that we see um that kind of shows you that it would be possible to do in that time with that said um we talked about treasure digging and so we covered this in the first episode but just to show that we have multiple references to treasure digging in the book of mormon which would tell you that either joseph smith is putting his own personal experience into the book of mormon or that in ancient america they were using the exact same style of treasure digging that joseph smith did in the 1820s and that's a problem when you start to see all of these things start to pile up because then all of a sudden it's really hard to dismiss all of them and so we'll just read a couple from helaman it says and behold the time cometh that he curses curseth your riches that they become slippery that ye cannot hold them in in the days of your poverty you cannot retain them behold we lay a tool here and on the morrow it is gone and behold our swords are taken from us in the day we have sought them for battle yea we have hit up our treasures and they have slipped away from us because of the curse of the land oh that we had repented in the day and that the word of the lord came upon unto us for behold the land is cursed and all the things that become slippery and we cannot hold them and then in the book of mormon um and these gadianton robbers who were among the lamanites did infest the land in so much that the inhabitants there began to hide up their treasures in the earth and they became slippery because the lord cursed the land that they could not hold them nor retain them again i mean that's joseph smith's treasure digging accounts perfectly and i and and and i i don't have this for sure in my mind but i'm guessing that the bible new testament old testament do not mention slippery treasures that get pulled away by a spirit when you try and dig for them that's literally you know 18th century folk magic treasure digging pirate spanish conquistador lore that ends up because joseph smith practiced it ends up getting written into the book of mormon um just it's such a clear fingerprint as it is and that's just it like so you know all these things again they just pile up and so this one is literally and again i know people hate black and white comparisons but it's like you either have to believe that in the ancient americas that people were doing the same treasure taking practices as the 19th century or that joseph smith is writing his own experiences into the book of mormon as kind of a co-author which then as we've talked about versus loose translation creates a lot of problems with the method of translation but you can't really have it both ways because there's no other as john said there's no like biblical accounts of like people laying down their swords and having them be sucked into the earth and just as joseph smith would have claimed during a failed treasure dig and so the fact that they're in the book of mormon tells you that joseph smith is using his own worldview to tell these stories yeah and mike i want to i as you as you jump into these slides i for those who are new i want to just give a little bit of context yeah no it's fine if that's okay of course so now now we're jumping to this idea of a seer and you know mormons are really familiar with the term seer because prophet seer and revelator that's every first presidency member and member of the quorum of the twelve well it turns out that the term cer is like scryer or peeper or glass looker it is a term that is that comes out of folk magic lore um you know that's where it comes from so to have to have that term seer showing up in the book of mormon and then to have a seer according to the book of mormon now elevated above that of a prophet is particularly suspect because we know that the author of the book of mormon was known as a seer so in other words we risk joseph smith you know writing into the book of mormon him elevating himself above moses and and jacob and and you know isaiah and david and daniel and abraham and everyone else and and we know that that's not beyond joseph smith so tell us why the term seer in the book of mormon is problematic yeah and and so we'll just read mosiah eight it's like five verses and so it says now ammon said unto him i can assuredly tell the o king of a man that can translate the records for he has wherewith that he can look and translate all records that are of ancient date and it is a gift from god and the things are called interpreters and no man can look in them except he be commanded lest he should look for that he ought not and he should perish and whoever and whosoever is commanded to look in them the same is called seer which again that's that's how joseph smith defined himself and then it says and behold i'm sorry no that's good you might as well put scryer or peeper in there yeah i mean that's the thing he's basically describing what's doing what's really funny about this and i'll finish these verses but keep in mind when he's writing this this is right around the time that oliver cadre is starting so joseph smith is picking up in mosiah as we talked about in the translation episode 116 pages and a part of mosaic was written and so this is being written basically right at the beginning of his time with oliver cadre it's almost like joseph is telling oliver through this dictation his own power and his own authority and i think that's really important because of the fact that it almost shows in a lot of ways um joseph's insecurity in that he needs to keep basically revealing himself through the text as being the person that has the power to do this whereas it doesn't necessarily make sense uh that you'd have to have that reassuredness um you know otherwise in my opinion anyways it just feels like he's trying to tell everyone that he's more powerful than a prophet because he's doing it in a way that's different than a prophet but as john said calling himself a seer because that's what people viewed him as treasure digger and so now he's carrying it over and trying to say well actually what i could do as a seer as a treasure digger is more powerful than a prophet so it's like don't look down on me for being a series exactly is actually better than me yeah that's just it and so it's almost like someone's like well i'll leave read the rest so it says and behold the king of the people who are in the land of zerahamla is the man that is commanded to do these things and who has this high gift from god and the king said that a pro a seer is greater than a prophet and ammon said that a seer is a revelator and a prophet also in a gift which is greater can no man have except he should possess the power of god which no man can yet many may have great power given him from god but a seer can know of things which are past and also of things which are to come and by them all shall all things be revealed or rather shall secrete things we may manifest and hidden things shall come to light and things which are not known shall be made known to them and also things shall be made known by them which otherwise could not be known and so this is literally joseph smith it's almost like to your point he knows he's got a treasure digging background and he's almost like answering that question in the book of mormon and saying no no people call me a seer and that's actually better because not only can i reveal things like a prophet but i can see things that prophets can't see and again it just it shows joseph smith writing his own autobiographical story into the book of mormon and without the mormon church kind of educating us that joseph was a scryer and a peeper uh and a glass looker um when we hear seer we just think cool he can see the future and he's got these biblical magic powers and he's like a prophet it gets tainted when you understand the treasure digging history of joseph smith and even that he was convicted in a court of law of breaking the law that he it was more disreputable so when the church if you add to that the church hiding the history from us that becomes a problem but then also the the seer thing breaks down a bit because modern day first presidency members and apostles take on the title prophet seer and revelator and we know because they only published it recently that they have joseph smith's peepstones in their vaults in their museums that begs the question if if being a seer is so important why isn't russell m nelson or down h oaks or whoever why aren't they looking into their peepstones and telling us the future or providing new revelation and they're not and so i think the the seer language is problematic in both directions i mean it is and it's just one of those things where it's like we can see joseph smith in my opinion writing his story into the book of mormon as a way to give himself credibility for people who read it because all of a sudden you're reading you're like wow they're describing joseph smith but in a lot of ways it's almost like you know i mentioned this in some of the earlier episodes we've done but there are times in joseph smith stories where when you look at them from a non-believing point of view you're like it's almost like cartoonish how much he's trying to do it and um and so yeah it's a problem and that carries into this next section and i don't know if you want to cover this one for for listeners or if you want me to do it but it's it kind of goes along the same i can read it you want me to read it no no just just how you know um as a kind of an intro to how he writes himself right right right right yeah i mean you know it's plausible to believe that the book of mormon would prophesy of joseph smith if joseph smith was the guy who translated it but if you're going to step back and uh look critically and logically about whether a document is a credible historical document if if the document was supposedly written 2 000 years ago but it's praising 2 000 years later the guy who happened to write it for anyone who wasn't a believing mormon they're going to say that suspect right they're going to speak that's that's a clear fingerprint that's the the modern current author is simply just trying to make himself look valuable or important by almost pseudepigrapha by writing into past prophets a prophecy that joseph smith was going to be a rad dude right yeah i mean yeah he's writing himself in and so um you know critics and believers talk about how the book of mormon prophesies of joseph smith because from a believing standpoint you're like wow this is amazing from a critical standpoint you're like but the guy who wrote it is the one that's writing a self-serving thing and so yeah from second nephi it says and lest prophesied joseph saying behold that seer will the lord bless and they that seek to destroy him shall be confounded for this promise which i have obtained of the lord of the fruit of my loins shall be fulfilled behold i am sure of the fulfilling of this promise and his name shall be called after me and it shall be after the name of his father and he shall be like unto me for the thing which the lord hath uh shall bring forth by his hand by the power of the lord shall bring my people unto salvation and again you know it's also worth noting that this is actually being in the replacement text for the lost 116 pages so it's kind of funny how he uses um a similar revelation to dnc 10 where he talks about how anyone who seeks to destroy him shall be confounded and yet you know people like you know for example me who's talking about joseph's works today um i have not been confounded whatsoever i mean it's just one of those things where he's he's kind of borrowing from that dnc 10 thought that god will confound anyone who seeks to undermine his work and yet that never happens either and so it's just kind of i think illustrating some of the insecurity that joseph had um especially with the replacement text of the 116 pages and so he's writing himself in there to the point where it's unmistakable that it's joseph smith because he's talking about how he's gonna be joseph son of joseph and um and then like i said pulling in um dnc 10. so it really works to show not just that it's an influence into the book of mormon but this also kind of lines up with the fact that it happens during the replacement text of the 116 pages yeah hindsight is 20 20. and if you're you're writing back into the past a prophecy about the future when you know the present yeah it's a lot less impressive and in fact it's a sign of fraud for anyone who's being you know logical and scholarly yeah i mean like i said the phrase i always use i don't know maybe it's not the best one i always say if you start with a blank slate this stuff becomes obvious if you start if you can let you know they always say like um don't let go of the iron rod and i'm like just let go of the rod i wrote i wrote a blog post on it like early on when i started the website and it's basically saying just let go from for a day a week and um a friend of mine um i think it's pretty sure it's the the guy who wrote the four and kellen who wrote the four annotated essays on our site i'm pretty sure he was one that said it and he said you know we always talk about abrahamic tests right so they'll say like you know abraham was commanded to to kill isaac until the abrahamic test came and said you fulfilled it you know and the church all the time refers to polygamy as an abrahamic test except for the fact that they made them go through with it which kind of is a problem but you know in a lot of ways reading the stuff that i wrote or that anyone else puts together you know if you truly believe that this church is true and you truly believe these truth claims hold up let go of the rod for a week or a month and study this stuff and read this stuff and listen to these episodes and and and if if it's truly true if this church is really what it claims to be you should have that abrahamic test fulfilled upon you where you have that answer that comes to you whether it's an angelic visit or a direct voice from god telling you i'm glad you i'm glad you took this risk to read all this stuff but yeah it's true get back to church you know and and no one ever tells you to do that they always tell you to do the abrahamic test when it serves them whether it's you know entering into polygamy or whether it's killing your firstborn son yet for something like this where it would be a good way to confirm whether or not this stuff is true they'll never ever ever tell you to let go of the rod and do the research on your own and i know it's a bit of a tangent but i think it's one hopefully that helps people out there yeah and another another um points you made in a past episode episode that i want to bring in here and i think this is the type this is in the tight versus loose translation episode is you notice that whenever joseph like a magician whenever joseph can't completely control the environment his powers disappear yeah but when he can control the environment he's got all these powers and what's up what's a more powerful way to control the environment than pretending like you're a past prophet and in the future that is the present that not only you know happens but makes you look really good and if if joseph you know if the book of mormon prophesying of joseph's son of joseph wasn't enough for you we also have the book of mormon prophesying about martin harris's visit to charles anthony right yeah so we actually we have a few slides on this one so this one will cover a little bit more than some of these other ones but um so this is one of the first things i came across when i was doing it was on the first blog post because i had no idea how this story was kind of backfitted into fitting uh the book of mormon and so um i've mentioned this on previous podcasts that we've done with uh the series the accounts are very different between what martin harris says happened and what charles anthony says happen and even within charles anthony's two accounts they're different so charles anthony does not have a perfectly you know um consistent account either and that's important to note because i don't want to pretend that his is perfect either because there are some areas where it might seem like anthony might have been a little bit duped as far as um kind of maybe believing that he saw some different kinds of languages um i don't believe he claimed to translate him because he couldn't he didn't know egyptian um but we cover that more on the website but you know just to point that out that they both both harris and anthon have problematic or inconsistent accounts i guess i would say um and and uh sorry just to give a tiny bit of backup we're gonna have a whole episode on the charles anthony thing right uh i don't know if i'm a whole episode but it pops up in a few of these just because it's kind of important but tell me if i've got the story right that joseph knows he's told everybody he's got golden plates but he's not showing them to anybody so he he wants some way to validate that he has played short of showing anyone the plates so he manufactures these characters that he claims our ancient reformed egyptian written on paper derived from the plates and then he sends martin harris to a well-known scholar named charles anthon who can at least validate that these are legitimate ancient characters but also knowing again controlling the environment knowing that anthon couldn't actually read the characters because joseph smith has manufactured a fake language which is reformed egyptian which doesn't exist and it's built upon a language egyptian would not yet been translated because the rosetta stone right translation had not yet become pervasive enough so again even in this instance joseph is controlling the environment but trying to use scholarship uh to validate what what he's doing is that right yeah so basically yeah he sends them to anthem and the only reason i mentioned there's inconsistencies is anthony i think in the second one is a lot more negative than in the first and i think um in the first one i think he admits to giving him a piece of paper and then tearing it up and i think in the second he says he under he figured it out earlier i think i'd have to read it it's been a while but um but the point is when joseph smith writes this account in the official history martin harris has already been excommunicated from the church he's gone and so the 1838 account is written completely from joseph smith's point of view because he doesn't need martin harris to tell him anything or to correct anything because he's gone um but the other thing is that joseph smith actually does write this into his 1832 history so martin harris would still be part of the church and in his 1832 history it says because of his faith the lord appeared unto martin harris in a vision and showed him his marvelous work which he was about to do he immediately came to susquehanna and said that the lord had shown shown him that he must go to new york city with some characters so we proceeded to copy some of them and he took his journey to the eastern cities and to the learned saying read this i pray thee and the lord had said i cannot but if he would bring the plates they would read it but the lord had forbid it and he returned to me and gave them to me to translate and i said i cannot for i am not learned but the lord is wait oh yeah but the lord has prepared spectacles for to read the book of mormon therefore i commence translating the characters and thus the prophecy of isaiah was fulfilled which is written in the 29 chapter concerning the book and so joseph smith in his 1832 account was writing the story again he's not writing it with martin and martin harris wouldn't have seen this because nobody this is the same history that had the first vision um and so he's writing this down in this this does mirror the book of mormon story but it also misses a few of the points that are going to come in the 1838 account and that's important too to see how obviously we're talking about influence to say so this is an influence in the book of mormon and it will also show how he retrofits the story to make it even grander later yeah and just a key point that's going on here joseph's not only trying to get a well-known scholar to validate his book of mormon translation process without showing plates he's trying to write himself into isaiah's prophecy because he knows the bible and so if he can have isaiah yep he he could have isaiah validating joseph smith then it's isaiah plus the book of mormon prophets plus charles anthony and he's got multiple witnesses all saying joseph's awesome right and that's just it i mean this is where and you know um if you if you listen to um there's a podcast that john hamer did with infants on thrones on the christmas story and i think it's like two hours long but john hamer notes all these times where the new testament gospel authors are basically skimming through the old testament trying to find ways to fulfill prophecy when they're writing the gospels and in a lot of them they're writing them in ways that just certainly do not match and isaiah is a big one they'll say that isaiah prophesies of jesus when you read them in context you're like no he's not talking about jesus but from the perspective of the new testament gospel writers they're trying to find ways to link jesus to the divinity of the old testament and in that same way joseph smith now is trying to find ways in the old testament or in the bible as a whole to fulfill a prophecy with the book of mormon because it is somewhat so much more powerful to those who are reading it if you can make them think that you're actually fulfilling something even if the reading of it is completely wrong right and so anyways we just read the 1832 account and so now compare that to second nephi which is written obviously after the anthem visit and so joseph smith writes into the book of mormon but behold it shall come to pass that the lord god shall say unto him to whom he shall deliver the book take these words which are not sealed and deliver them to another that he may show them unto the lord and saying read this i pray thee and lord it shall say bring heather the book and i will read them and now because of the glory of the world and to get gained they will say this and not for the glory of god and the man shall say i cannot bring the book for it is sealed then the learned say then shall the lord say i cannot read it wherefore it shall come to pass that the lord god will deliver again the book and the words thereof to him that is not learned and the man that is not learned shall say i am not learned and so basically after the visit joseph smith appears to be taking a lot of the accounts that martin harris tells him happened in writing it directly into the book because remember this is the replacement text of the 116 pages so this is long after martin harris would claim to go see charles anthony and yet it winds up in second nephi which we know is written after the visit happened and it matches a lot of the 1832 account that joseph smith writes of the visit perfectly which tells you that he is basically retrofitting a prophecy directly into the book of mormon unless you want to believe that it could literally happen that way where you know martin harris would visit charles anthony and have it happen just as the text was written you know almost word for word in some areas it just this is an area where we can show that joseph smith is absolutely writing in real time things that are happening around him to give the book more credibility yeah and this reminds me of the angel with the flaming sword thing because you've only got a certain number of verses and chapters and books in scripture there's so many things god could have prophesied about he could have prophesied about the civil war and saved hundreds of thousands if not millions of lives he could have prophesied about germ theory and helped you know prevent disease or you know infant mortality he could have you know said slavery's bad stop it stop the slavery uh women's suffrage lgbtq rights like of all the things he could have written about he's gonna be writing about like joseph and charles anthony and martin harris and you know back hundreds of years ago with nate thousands of years well a thousand years ago with native americans like none of this makes sense yeah and like you know not to we'll get into like the the way that revelations are written to the book of mormon in a future episode but yeah all the revelations all the prophecies that are in the book of mormon they die in 1829 so they they talk about columbus coming they talk about revolutionary war but nowhere in there do you see anything about the civil war or uh boiling water maybe boiling water uh world war ii so everything gets super vague after um basically the book of mormon's prophesied of being fulfilled everything it's extremely vague and so you have no idea and and so we talk about today book of mormon prophecies being fulfilled and when you look at him you're like no the prophecies in the book of mormon are super vague it's always the wars and rumors of wars kind of thing and um and so the fact that this is in there so specifically allows you as a scholar or allows me as some idiot who has a background in research to look at that and go okay this is too specific to be a biblical revelation or a prophecy because we can see from the actual bible the prophecies are usually pretty vague except for the times when when scholars can show that they're written after the fact like in the book of daniel and that's what you're seeing here it's also unimportant relatively unimportant like the book of mormon was written for our day does anybody care about the anthem visit and by the way there was controversy and we're going to get to this right now anthon's version was different than martin harris's version so like was it even an important account in in terms of really establishing testimony maybe it was back then i doubt it is now anyway i guess that takes us to the next slide yeah and to be fair i think it would be valuable at the time because you're trying to find these these little things you can teach people and say fulfilled isaiah 29 but the problem is um joseph smith is misinterpreting isaiah in order to fit it around his you know claimed fulfilled prophecy because in isaiah 29 joseph smith is referring to this idea of a sealed book as the literal gold plates right as the unsealed portion and in the actual isaiah 29 and again i know this is according to to biblical scholars but this is another area especially when people try to reinterpret these everyone i think with a pretty strong consensus believes that isaiah is only referring to spiritual blindness and not speaking to a physical book and so um we talk about this in on the website and we have links to our more um a longer uh article that's only about the anthem visit and so that's linked from from this influences page but um dialogue uh magazine had a really good article uh written by david wright and he explains just how joseph smith is completely mistaking the the prophecy in isaiah 29 to make it fit the book of mormon and because of that that's another fingerprint that joseph smith loses leaves sorry leaves with the text that we know it wasn't from god because he's messing up the interpretation of the rev of the prophecy and in doing so it's very self-serving to himself into the book of mormon um and that gives you a really good clue as to the motivation as to why the verse was misinterpreted and we covered this in a previous uh episode but for those who are watching this there's an image on the bottom of this slide and if you look you can see how in a separate color pen and in between the lines it's written and added in i informed him that the part of um i can't read this it's small but basically it's it's the line that says i cannot read a sealed book and that is the whole part that is supposed to fulfill isaiah 29 so it says informed him that part of the plates were sealed and that he was i was forbidden to bring them and anthon replied i cannot read a sealed book and that's being added into the 1838 history and again that's after martin harris is gone so martin harris can't be there to say you know you added this part to your history and it's not true and so joseph smith is adding this in and you can tell from the pen that it's an add-on and again you can make the argument that joseph smith just forgot this part when to add it back in and again if you want to do that you can but it just seems to me like he's reading it and then saying oh i gotta add that back in because that makes it a much better story just as you see with some of the other changes yeah yeah it's really it's really suspect and uh and of course uh we know david wright was excommunicated and nowadays if your ex communicated in the past three decades it means you were speaking the truth i mean literally whether it's um you know september 6 or jeremy reynolds or bill rio or michael quinn or whoever maxine hanks the modern mormon church excommunicates you when you're saying something that's true that's that's uncomfortable yeah and that's just it yeah okay uh so so the anthon visit is a problem appearing in the book of mormon and then of course we have the last 116 pages which we have an entire episode on but tell us but put up kind of connect the dots why the 116 pages account appearing in the book of mormon is a problem and this one is one that might not be a huge one but again we had the whole episodes we're not going to rehash all of that but basically um the book of mormon dictation begins in mosiah after the 116 pages were lost by martin harris and a lot of scholars believe that there was a small portion of mosiah that was included in the original translation but wasn't lost because it would appear that martin harris probably took the parts that led up right to the beginning of mosiah because it wasn't completed and as such joseph smith according to dnc 10 is going to pick it up from that spot so dnc 10 says um therefore you shall translate the engravings which are on the plates of nephi down even till you come to the reign of king benjamin or until you come to that which you have translated which you have retained so it's basically saying until that little part that you've retained you're going to go to there and so we don't know exactly which chapter of mosiah was left off but dan vogel pointed this out and it's a really really good observation which is in mosiah 4 we have this verse from king benjamin where he says and i would that ye should remember that whosoever among of you among you borroweth of his neighbor should return the thing that he borroweth according as he doth agree or else thou shalt commit sin and perhaps thou shalt cause thy neighbor to commit sin also and that seems like a pretty direct reference that joseph smith is writing into the text basically as a way to kind of slam martin harris for losing it because in that mindset not only did martin harris sin by losing the manuscript but he actually according to joseph smith caused him to sin and so this would be another area where joseph smith is writing an event that happened around him directly into the text as if it happened in ancient times and it also makes sense that it might happen right after joseph starts picking back up the translation as well because it'd be fresh on his mind as to why he has to go through and kind of refix these problems yeah yeah again um it's just it would be you know if he had produced this 116 pages sort of prophecy before the pages got lost you know i don't know it's just the the level of specificity just right why did why didn't he have a prophecy in the book of mormon that said and by the way joseph you'll be called you know the a future seer will be called upon to practice polygamy and his wife won't like it and he'll have about 40 wives and and then one of his first presidency members will write a new you know we'll write a newspaper article about it and you know what there's so many moments of joseph smith's history that there could have been a prophecy about that could have like saved joseph's life or helped the church in in other fundamental ways or you know zion zion the new jerusalem will be established in missouri but then it'll be moved or it will be no longer matter like yeah it's just um again like you said all the specific prophecies um uh are for events that uh occur prior to the the scribes writing down what's in the book of mormon yeah there's there's nothing there's no prophecy afterwards and that again it's just it's a fingerprint that tells you that the person writing the book of mormon has the hindsight before him but not the foresight after and you know um you would expect one of the things they talk about often with with biblical scholarship is just the more specific the prophecy is in the bible the more likely it was that it was a late edition or that it's being written after the fact under the assumed name and um the book of daniel is where a lot of people cite it because every time it's super specific they can literally date that text to being written later than it was purported to be written because of the fact that it's specific and you know from a secular point of view that's because there's no revelation from god that is giving people foresight because if there was again you would expect to see that even in the modern church we don't see anything specific from the prophets and so that tells you that they're not getting that kind of of answer in there and so when you do see in the book of mormon things being written that are happening around joseph smith during the production of the book of mormon that's that's an issue where you could say of course the author of the book of mormon is adding this and because he's experiencing it and so he's putting it in there as a way to bolster the credibility of it because he's now able to take something that's happening put it into an ancient context so that when people read it they go wow i can't believe they got this but in reality it's just because like in these cases they're being written in the replacement text it's really easy to slip it in at the end of the book of mormon because now you're trying to find ways to bolster it as a religious text yeah and yeah all right so uh so the next uh the the next element of joseph's surroundings or environment that makes it into the book of mormon is uh anti-masonic fears and on the next slide after the one you're going to show you give a little bit of history but most people have no idea why you're talking about the masons during joseph smith's time the only connection they know about between masons and joseph smith is that the joseph's miss participation in the masonic lodge influenced what became the mormon temple endowment ceremony but there were there's actually other significant masonic influences to jose smith in the book of mormon so whatever background you want to give to that um you know what would you like to say about that as we jump into the book of mormon you know we can just jump into this one because this is one where you know we're gonna see the second slide probably fills in a little bit more than the first one but basically when joseph smith is writing the book of mormon literally a few years before the production of the book of mormon starts they are going to have um these disappearance of william morgan so he disappears because he's about to expose all of the secret rituals of freemasonry and everyone believed that he had fallen victim to masonic vengeance and dan vogel outlines this he describes it really well and these feelings are everywhere it bleeds into the electoral process um and so because of that everyone's kind of afraid of the masons and this is a big deal where it should not be in an ancient text when it is mirroring what is happening around him so well um but the thing is everybody knows of the secret rituals of the of the masons and there's a lot of use in his time frame of them having secret combinations and so they talk about the book of mormon having this use of secret combinations and dan vogel notes in a paper he'd written he says the book of mormon thus combines the following favorite anti-masonic elements in its description of the decline and fall of the jared and nephi nations the ascendancy of secret combinations the rejection of religious leadership the loss of social political equality and the fragmentation of a centralized government and a lot of those fears also mirrored the time when joseph smith is writing this book because andrew jackson is a mason and it harms him in joseph smith's area because of all of these fears about the fear is that if a mason takes control of the government it's no longer going to be the same it's going to be controlled by the masons and you know i always laugh because before i got into this stuff um i grew up a huge simpsons fan and if you've ever seen the stone cutters episode yeah yeah but that's the belief the belief was that this was like the secret organization with secret combinations with secret handshakes which you know we know they had and the belief was they controlled a lot of stuff and so if they became uh able to be the president that they'd have basically controlled the country and um dan vogel noted about the um trial about william morgan that they believe a lot of the jurors were basically bought off or part of the masons all of these things and so all of these different elements of this 1826 trial caused a lot of fear unease and because of that um the book of mormon in a lot of ways could have been written before 1826 because of that like if joseph smith had written this book in 1823 when he claimed the gold plate story it wouldn't have this in there because those that whole experience is just not going to be around him in the middle of you milieu and yet because it's a few years later it's right there and i'll include a link to the simpsons episode called homer the great in this notes that's one of the early classics and so um this is um basically the best way to to outline how much people recognize the masonic feelings um and so dan volga outlines how much the you know the the fear of masons influence the book of mormon and martin harris actually declares publicly that the book of mormon is the anti-masonic bible in all and that all those who do not believe it will be damned and then the ohio star ohio star which is a local newspaper in 1831 wrote that the book of mormon is anti-masonic and it is a singular truth that every one of its followers so far as we are to ascertain are anti-masons and so this is again we're getting um obviously martin harris who's a true believer and we're getting the ohio star which is a newspaper just reporting that this book captures the anti-masonic feeling so well and the fact that it's written into what is supposed to be an ancient text is a really good clue that joseph smith is having this influence of these news stories all around him you know and it's kind of like you think of covet right now and it'll be like if you wrote a book um that was purportedly ancient and there were all these stories that kind of mirrored all the stuff that's happened over the last two years with covet whether it's the lockdowns or the fear or the people you know whatever it is and so it's kind of a similar thing where all of a sudden we have this masonic stuff that's appearing in the book of mormon through secret combinations and to the point where the ohio star newspaper notices that martin harris is telling people directly that this is the anti-masonic bible i mean there's no confusion here that masonry plays a role in the book of mormon and it couldn't because masonry is not ancient it started i believe in the 1500s so it does not go back to solomon's temple or anything like that as people claim and it just would have it's an anachronistic have mason masonic fears in the book of mormon yeah and just to give credit where credit is due and i don't know if grant palmer deserves any of this credit but grant palmer's book an insider's view of mormon origins he's a legend by the way and he's you know just like sandra and gerald tanner were legends before him and and still sanders still alive but um it was in grant palmer's book an insider's view of mormon origins where i first had someone piece together you know what what he viewed were the core sources of inspiration for the book of mormon and it was through grant palmer that i first learned this connection between the secret combinations talk in the book of mormon and the william morgan masonic affair and i'm guessing dialogue articles talked about this before grant palmer ever wrote about it but i just want to give grant palmer a shout out in his amazing book an insider's view of mormon origins because to this day it remains a really important influence in a classic right yeah yeah no his interviews are good too and um yeah and um so you know just trying to cover some of the apologetics in this section is a little tricky just because i'm you know a lot of it comes down to like the type versus loose translation stuff but regarding the secret combinations um there is uh an article that i i linked to on this um overview and they're basically the premise is that the use of the term secret combinations wasn't only regarding the masons and joseph smith's time and so in the interpreter which is um uh i don't know if it's a website or a newsletter or whatever but it's it's edited by daniel peterson who i believe wrote the book like how people deceive with the book of mormon or whatever and so he talks about word games in the book of mormon and um for people who have read some of daniel peterson's stuff he does a lot of word games himself um but anyways gregory smith writes in there defending daniel peterson's prediction that we would eventually find references to secret combinations beyond just masonry they provide a few examples that come from court records legal documents and legislative materials that show the phrase secret combinations was not exclusively used for masons as proof that it was not the influence on joseph smith that dan vogel and others had proclaimed and you know the point i would make here is finding a few outliers doesn't prove your case that it was not predominantly used to talk about masonry in joseph smith's time and so um if you're looking at all that's just super poor logic yeah i mean it's just bad it's like you know if you could find i i don't know what the numbers would be let's say you could find 100 references the secret combinations that tied to masonry and then you could find four that might go to other things it doesn't prove that the 100 would not have been the predominant uh view of joseph smith's time and so it it's just a it's a bad way of doing cherry picking but i want to mention it because i have seen this apologetics where they'll say you know we found these obscure trial records um that tell us that secret combinations uh didn't refer to masonry but those same people will tell you that the obscure trial record that said that joseph smith was found guilty of of treasure digging in 1826 is irrelevant you know i mean and so that's the kind of thing and so i'm not saying that this didn't happen i'm just saying that if you want to claim that then you have to put it against the number of times where anti-masonry is used with secret combinations combined with the fact that we have martin harris and the ohio star both saying without any hesitation that the book of mormon is anti-masonic why are the people in contemporary times able to pick up on that if it was not really explicit in the text itself it feels gross to me this is going to sound really rude but it feels gross to me to include a link to an article from from the interpreter but to be fair i'm going to include it so yeah include i'm going to include a link to that and you can you can you can find it on the yeah and you can find on the overview on the overview page too i link to it but i mean like i said feel free to read it like i said it feels like you're searching for anything to just dismiss this claim and it just again it goes against the fact that martin harris and the newspaper at the time are both saying it's anti-masonic the fact that secret combinations is used over and over again to talk about masons and makes its way into the book of mormon finding a few outliers doesn't prove your case it just proves that there is you know something out there you know that because secret combinations i i get is a is mostly for masonry but of course it could be used for other things that's just how it works when you've got a lot of documents to sift through yeah all right the next one is you know joseph smith's this is well known but for those who are new to this joseph smith's dad joseph senior um has a dream that is written down that ends up appearing almost identically in the book of mormon so that talk about that yeah and so basically um joseph smith's father claims a vision in 1811 about the tree of life and it is remarkably similar to lehi's dream in the book of mormon so this is kind of a graphic from uh myth since sunday but it just kind of goes through the the highlights of it so you got i was traveling in an open desolate field and then in the book of mormon as ib held a large and spacious field um the road was so broad and barren in the book of mormon leadeth them away and into broad roads um then as i came to a narrow path book of mormon as i also be held a straight narrow path i beheld a beautiful stream of water i beheld a river of water i could see a rope running along the bank of it and then the book of mormon i'd be held in a rod of iron and it extends along the bank of the river and then his dad in which stood a tree such as i had never seen before it was exceedingly handsome in the book of mormon it says and i looked and beheld a tree and the beauty thereof was far beyond yay exceeding all of all beauty um his dad said it be uh it bore a kind of fruit in shape much like a chestnut bur and as white as snow or if possible whiter book of mormon says i beheld that the fruit there was white to exceed all the whiteness that i'd ever seen his dad said i drew near and began to eat of it and i found it delicious beyond description book of mormon i did go forth and partake of the fruit thereof and i beheld that it was the most sweet above all that i'd ever before tasted if you go to the next one there's just a few more and then um it just says as i was eating i said in my heart i cannot eat this alone i must bring my wife and children that they may partake with me book of mormon says i began to be desirous that my family should partake of it also for i knew it was desirable above all of their fruit his dad said i beheld a spacious building standing opposite the valley which we were in and it appeared to reach the very heavens book of mormon says and beheld on the other side of the river of water a great and spacious building and it stood as it were in the air high above the earth um his dad they were fi they were all filled with people who were very finely dressed book of mormon it was all filled with people and their manner of dress was exceedingly fine his dad they pointed the finger of scorn at us treated us with all manner of disrespect and contempt book of mormon they were in the attitude of mocking and pointing their fingers his dad what was the meaning of the spacious building which i saw he replied it is babylon it is babylon and it must fall and then book of mormon said in the large and spacious building which thy father saw is vain imaginations and the pride of the children of men so just so many perfect similarities between yeah and then and again joseph smith senior you're having the date of that dream being 1811 yeah which is 19 years before the book of mormon is published yeah and you know one of the things that's interesting about this one is that this is um as dan vogel points out a part of contention between joseph smith senior and and his his mother lucy because uh they have this difference in religion because this vision is what tells joseph smith senior that he doesn't want to join a church and um so this vision obviously is known in their family and it's known by joseph to the point where he's trying to uh find a way to get his parents to you know stop arguing about religion and to find uh you know some togetherness there and this is really important because we can see it it weaves its way into the book of mormon and if you believe that his parents are true believers which i do and i think i know dan vogel does he talks about this but this would give joseph smith credibility to his parents to try to find a way to make this work to get to solve their religious arguments by putting it into a scripture in the voice of god and um i mean originally i was thinking well that would be a sign to joseph's parents that the book of mormon was a fraud because joseph is just reproducing his dad's dream and putting it into the book of mormon so the dad would say hey wait that's my dream why is it in the book of mormon but i think what i hear you saying is it's a way to validate joker's dad and say hey god showed me that your dream is actually divinely inspired yep let me correct it a little bit right yep because all of a sudden it's like joseph smith senior believes this dream was like a vision right because he lived in that folk magic world that he believed in visions and all of a sudden his vision ends up in the book of mormon is is you know lehi's dream which is kind of like a vision that's a that's a way of uh god confirming through joseph smith to his dad that that dream was valid and what's really cool um is that um what's going to happen is joseph smith is actually going to correct his dad through the book of mormon as a way to kind of correct him so that it um takes away some of the differences between him and his wife and so dan vogel pointed this out but joseph smith is going to then make a change to this dream after it's written and so remember you know the lehigh's dream is written and then what's going to happen in nephi chapter 15 he's actually going to correct the vision of lehi in verses 26-29 so it says and they said unto me what meaneth the river of water which our father saw and i said unto them that the water which my father saw was filthiness and so much was his mind swallowed up in other things that he beheld not the filthiness of the water and i said unto them that it was an awful gulf which separated the wicked from the tree of life and also unto the saints of god and i said unto them that it was a representation of that awful hell which the angel said unto me was prepared for the wicked and so that's really important because joseph smith senior because of this dream becomes like a universalist who believes everyone's going to be saved and that he doesn't have to join a church and joseph smith after having lehi's dream in the book of mormon then goes back and corrects it and says oh no there's going to be a hell and there is going to be you know he didn't understand that the water was mud and so this in a lot of ways joseph is now using the voice of god to correct his dad's dream to get him just to come away from that that mindset that you know he will be saved no matter what he does which then kind of takes away some of the stress between him and lucy on the subject of religion which again these are all influences in the book of mormon and fingerprints that are coming from him in a contemporary standpoint being put into ancient text i know this is going to sound totally unrelated but it reminds me of the the spectacles incident where joseph is bringing someone along shows him into the mound says hey do you see the place down there and then the guy adds to the vision and says wait i see the place but now i see the spectacles too it's like this i see your vision and let me raise some details on your vision it is you know it's like he's putting the vision in which i'm sure makes his dad think oh my goodness god is speaking through my son to me to validate my vision and then as soon as that happens and joseph pulls the rug out he's like actually we gotta you've got some things you gotta fix here but it's still it's a really cool thing that dan vogel points out because it is a really cool way to look at how it fits into not just the book of mormon but how that fits into his personal life and how he's trying to synthesize his parents on religion by using his dad's vision in the text and then correcting it because if he were to correct it to his dad without this text his dad would say what do you know but since he's doing it in the voice of god his dads will be more receptive to it and looks like it works so that's a pretty pretty big thing and this isn't even mentioning the fact that how convenient is it that that in the book of mormon lehi is a visionary and a prophet and then his son nephi is the stronger and better yeah and the superior visionary and prophet yeah there's a lot there's that that that's the same structure okay joseph senior is a bit of an old you know geezer of a prophet but then the younger stronger smarter prophet is the son yeah there's a lot of autobiographical uh little fingerprints in there i should have done some stuff on that i don't think i have it on the overview but because because nephi has older brothers yep joseph smith has older brothers yep um yeah it's definitely a lot of parallels there in terms of yeah there's a lot i'm surprised that's not here but i'm not you know i think i think i may have touched on a little more when i talk about how he composed it but yeah i mean there's a lot of biographical elements that pop in there too which which kind of help us to know you know who the author the pokemon was and um yeah okay yeah and so you know one of the apologetics here is to say that when lucy max smith um retells what what the father's dream was it's not happening until 1845 which means she's now writing down what joseph smith senior's dream was 34 years later and after the book of mormon was produced and so the argument would be that lucy mack smith's recounting would be altered and influenced by the book of mormon and one of the things that i've heard other people talk about i think dan vogel talked about and i think i think it might be john hamer or someone else and they just say it just seems unlikely that she would copy the book of mormon story and not change the part about the water to match it and that you know that you've got the rope which makes more sense from the standpoint of how joseph smith senior lived and not an iron rod and so you just have these elements that you would think if she was trying to match the book of mormon she would change but instead she leaves a lot of details that that don't quite match and so if you want to dismiss the story because in in oh yeah it's a as a final note if if we're going to get into the standpoint of dismissing stories because they're not written down until years later um you're going to have a lot of problems quickly when we get like first vision and priesthood restoration because those aren't written down the first vision's not written down as we're told in church for 18 years and so again you have to be able to look at it and go there's probably some elements of the story because it was 34 years that lucy mack smith might be doing differently but there's just no indication that she's looking at the book of mormon while she's writing it because the the change in phrasing is there and if she was trying to alter it so it didn't look like it then she would have changed it more and if she's trying to match the book of mormon it'd be closer and so i just think because it there are a lot of differences that seem to match more with what joseph smith senior would have would have lived through like the rope and and not correcting uh the part about the water that we can't just throw it away because of the fact that it was written down later yeah those are just those are dumb apologetics that are inconsistent in that and if you follow that methodology and apply it just to the book to the first vision alone yeah it's it's um it's they're just not acting in good faith yeah and you know the thing is there's probably like i said there's probably some truth i mean you're writing it down 34 years later you're going to have some differences i'm just saying like you know it wouldn't if she was trying to match the book of mormon because she was if that's what she she knew you'd see more changes than than she made and so there's enough there to tell us that at least at a base level the overall premise of the dream is is okay even if some of the wording might be a little different and so even beyond the fact that the phrases match the story i think is what's more important is seeing how the story just perfectly lines up and um and obviously the smith family knew of the vision well enough for joseph smith to write it into the book of mormon so it's not like it was a dream that was mentioned once and never mentioned again yeah so so really quickly we're about to come up with some concluding slides and um i'm just going to say some of the things that i'm surprised you didn't mention include the protestant sermons so when grant palmer lists what he feels are clear influences in the book of mormon in an insider's view of mormon origins he'll show some protestant sermons of the day yeah and then and then show like king benjamin's sermon or mosiah sermon or whatever and so there's there's protestant sermons but there's also just protestant theology when you when you later see um campbell alexander campbell's analysis of the book of mormon after he reads it and he was a protestant scholar of his day he's like wow how convenient joseph smith is resolving every controversy that is currently vexing protestant christianity including infant baptism baptism by immersion gift of the holy ghost and he goes there he lists like all these protestant christian controversies that somehow the book of mormon is addressing and by the way the prophets in the book of mormon prophets that are addressing uh the protestant controversies are allegedly giving these speeches before jesus was even born which is just egregiously anachronistic on every level and and um i'm wondering why those maybe do we cover that in another episode or yeah so the sermons i was going to cover more in the episode on how i think the book of mormon was composed okay and but yeah i mean that's a good point and you know um like i was going to put in there stuff about like how people perceive the native americans works its way in there i know it's similar to the mountain builder myth um 19th century christology i was going to put in there but a lot of that we've covered a little bit and i want to cover that more in the future and so i was trying to kind of trim it a little bit so we didn't kind of overlap too much we're definitely going to hit that um i think the how the book of mormon is composed i think is like three episodes from now and i think that'll cover that because that's really important because a lot of people will say how could joseph smith had written those sermons it's really important to understand that as you said there are a lot of uh details out there of sermons that are very similar that end up in a ancient text yeah and then there's just the whole isaiah just isaiah chapter after chapter of isaiah that's literally just copied yeah from justice king james version of the bible into the book of mormon right yeah and like all those things and that's the thing we could do this for six hours because there's so many more than this i mean even just looking at like you know the american revolution uh the different wars and how um people have done some detailed work on how the different battle techniques of those wars tend to be a little bit in the book of mormon as far as how the battles go um you know how a lot of the native americans tend to match the description of the iroquois that live near joseph smith i mean there's a lot of that stuff i didn't get into those as much on the overview but yeah there's we could go for so long because there's just so many little details that just happened to make their way into an ancient text that you could look and go how are there so many that just pile up here without us knowing yeah this is not a direct translation and i only mention them because they're they're massively important and it's okay that we'll cover them later but i just yeah in this episode trying to get a sense for it yep you gotta add protestant theology 19th century protestant theology yeah christology and you gotta add you know isaiah from the king james version of the bible and then freaking sermon on the mount new testament stuff that comes in the third nephi you add everything you've talked about plus kind of those three or four things yeah you really get a sense for how the book of mormon was put together which you covered which we'll be covering soon yeah it's it's going to be good i think once we get to that point okay and um so just to kind of do a conclusion for what we did today it's just you know again i've talked about this before but i always talk about fingerprints because there's all these parts of the pages of the book of mormon where you can see joseph's fingerprints being left on it on the text and it tells us not just that it's a 19th century text but no one besides joseph could have written it because we have the fact that the anti-masonic stuff didn't really start until 1826 that tells you basically it could have been written before then uh the charles anthony visit being in there um you know i didn't mention this earlier but joseph smith writes in there the fulfillment of the prophecy that three witnesses will verify the book of mormon is in the book of mormon those things are all happening around him and so no one could have written it besides joseph because a lot of these things are happening to him at the exact time he's writing it yeah yeah that is such an important and important summary again we're often told this book is too miraculous uh there's a way that one farm boy couldn't have written it and in in reality like you said i'm being repetitive but there's no way that anyone but joseph wrote this book yeah that's just that when you look at the um the scribes manuscript what's it called the the stuff that that came out by oliver cowdery's own hand that's in the joseph papers project yeah that and you see all the run-ons and the grammatical errors and the spelling errors and the the poor english that just brings the book of mormon down to a much less impressive level and i'm quoting john hamer here who once said to me and then in mormon stories episodes that one of the biggest problems with the assumption is that the book of mormon is an impressive book and to john hamer who's loves loves mormonism and loves even early joseph smith church history and is a 70 for community of christ his view is like mark twain that the book of mormon is just not a very impressive book yeah and that's just that i mean again we you start with the equation that no one like no one could do it you're gonna have a hard time you know finding a different answer but if you start with a blank slate that just says what do what does the text tell us what do all these clues tell us there's no other way you can go and i realize from a believer's standpoint that's gonna be offensive because it's like well how dare you say there's no other way to look at this but i'm just saying all of these things are pointing to it and so then you have to create a new universe for where joseph smith could have created the book of mormon but still have it be inspired and if you want to do that you can do that but i'm just saying you can't do that while also acknowledging that these things which are tangible that we can see through different documentary documentary sources you have to be able to do that and also be able to synthesize it with this with this evidence or else you're creating you're pushing your you're pushing your ideas outside of the realm of the evidence and at that point it just becomes indistinguishable from the same kind of fraud you would see with any other religious leader politician organization whatever you want to say yeah and we've got two more slides we're going to cover but i'm also just going to address a thought that's going to come up in the minds of believing mormons which is but wait i i've had these amazing spiritual experiences these amazing emotional experiences that confirmed to me that the book of mormon is true the book is just too powerful and again i like to use the the rush 2112 album you know my favorite album of all time is rush 2112 but whenever i've played it for anyone they think it sounds like shrieking noise uh unless they're rush fans what's the difference it's that my my siblings told me that russia's 2112 album was amazing when i was you know little and then i listened to it a thousand times over multiple decades having multiple memories and if you do that over enough time you're going to fall in love with anything whether it's shakespeare or dr seuss or mary poppins or the wizard of oz or the book of mormon if you're told from age zero that this is the most sacred book mommy and daddy are proud of you for reading it you're gathering around you know your living room with your family reading it daily it's interwoven into your lives you're reading it in seminary with all the other teens in high school you're praying about it trying to figure out who you are as you're reading this book you're having all these emotional experiences you're going to end up thinking it's the most sacred book ever until you give it to a muslim or a jew and they're going to read it and say what is this mindless boring drivel that that really appears more like bible fan fiction than anything that's actually interesting and again that's why mark mark twain called it chloroform in print because he didn't have the conditioning from childhood and from birth to make him feel like it was a sacred special book yeah i mean it's just it's one of those things where we it's all about setting up the equation if you set up the equation and that's reinforced throughout your life that this cannot have been done you're going to constantly think that it's the same way like when my kid believed in santa he kept saying he'd say things like i don't believe santa's real and i go why not and you go how how could he uh get these things from from stores that have stickers on them or how does he know get to everyone's house and michael what do you think you know you go well well i believe he's real and i'd be like why do you believe he's real i was like well i feel you know i fee you know i feel like like he is you know and and um and i know people get really offended at the comparison of church to santa but it's just until i kind of finally told my kid like yes santa's not real he held on to that hope because we had raised them to believe he was and so it was hard to get to that point and i think with mormonism it's just it's so much more embedded on us obviously than santa and i'm not trying to make light of it by using that example it's just until you're willing to to even out that equation or to just put the equation aside and start with a blank slate you'll never be able to do it because your your mind is basically forcing you into that paradigm of it has to be true because i believe it is and and it's really painful and it's really uncomfortable it's really difficult and i totally get that and i totally feel that because i've been through it um but yeah this stuff is really hard to deal with sometimes uh but that's what i'm trying to put out there as straightforward as i can doing it in a chronological order and trying to be as you know i'm trying not to be obnoxious about it i'm trying to be you know not sugar coated but also not not be um but difficult so i'm hoping if you're a believer and you're watching this you can at least understand where i'm coming from and look at the sources i provide and obviously do with it whatever you want to do yeah and we don't need you to stop believing in mormonism we don't need you to lose your faith we don't even need you to re contextualize your spiritual experiences with the book of mormon right this this series is for people that want to know if the mormon church is what it claims to be based on the evidence right and you can review this episode with the 50 others that we have done or are going to do and we just want you to decide for yourself and if you decide that the book of mormon is authentic in a historical document and that this is the one and only true church on the faith of the face of the earth more power true yeah and you know obviously we'll wrap up with we have two quotes to wrap up with and then on the other side are we going back to the mound builders what's up with that because i find it to be so important that i wanted to i wanted to finish with it so that people could understand just how important it is so um this is new york's governor in 1811 and he said there's every reason to believe that previous to the occupancy of this country by the progenitors of this present nation of indians it was inhabited by a race of men much more populous and much further advanced than civilization the numerous remains of ancient fortifications which are found in this country demonstrates a population far exceeding that of the indians when this country was first settled and again i just want to say does that sound familiar where you've got this advanced race that was much more populous better and this is from the new york's governor in 1811 just to show again that this is not uh some crackpot theory and um then the last one is going back to an archaeologist he wrote this two years ago because i think he's getting fed up with people who keep insisting that this is not a myth and so he said it seems i can no longer give a public program about ohio's ancient american indian mounds without somebody in the audience asking me about giants or the lost tribes of israel or even aliens i try to address these questions politely and explain that there is no hard evidence that any of these things had anything to do with ohio's mounds occasionally if the person asking the question is a true believer they'll accuse me of lying and hiding the evidence that would prove me wrong some people actually believe that the ohio history connection along with the smithsonian has skeletons of giant humans in our collections that we keep hidden from the public and so it sounds like freaking rod meldrum in the it does and the heartland theory of the book of mormon people like he's literally describing them because people are going to ohio and saying we have proof that the book of mormon happened here and he's trying to say there's no evidence for it and so kind of the reason i bring it up again is just to put a bow on this which is to say these things are difficult these things are hard and they're really uncomfortable to go through but what i'm saying is like what arc uh what bradley leopard basically is saying is no one's hiding evidence from people we're not hiding stuff from you guys we're not misrepresenting stuff we're trying to put it out there and i know your instinct is going to be to say you're lying you're hiding you're cherry picking i'm just saying you know we're trying our best to put out this done or put this out in in the most straightforward way we can and to give enough information that hopefully you can get a feel for some of these topics as we go but we are trying to do our best and so if your reaction is to say that we're making things up or we're hiding things i just hope you'll kind of understand that it's not just me it's archaeologists and other people who are also spending their whole this guy is spending his whole life in this field he's just trying to say like this is what we have to work with this is what it is and um and i think that's really important to note because we have to be willing to work with the evidence that we have i love it all right well the essay is uh it's it can be found at ldsdiscussions.com influences that's the amazing essay for this episode and mike this series i'm just getting raving reviews from people you you know we all respect you know michael quinn we all respect dan vogel mike you know richard bushman you know uh fond brody gerald and sandra tanner we respect all of them but what you're doing is synthesizing this information consolidating it making it accessible and integrating it in a way that i don't know anyone's ever done before and then communicating it visually and verbally in a succinct way uh it's it's a huge i've been around a long time it's a huge gift to our people thank you so much thank you enough mike well thank you so much and for everybody watching i hope you guys are getting some out of it and we'll see you guys next week all right all right well thank you so much mike and thanks uh to everyone again for joining us today on mormon stories podcast and for this series uh we we hope you love it we want to thank all our donors uh who make this possible uh they donate to mormon stories podcasts of the open stories foundation i mention this every episode but we lose uh 10 to 20 donors a month and they fall in financial hard times or they lose interest or 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thank you so much for your support thanks for all you do uh most importantly be kind to each other love each other and be good to each other never let religion or secularism come between uh friends or family if you can because at the end of the day we just need to enjoy this life that we know we have because uh this is the only life we know we have for sure thanks everybody and we'll see you again soon on mormon stories and join us for more lds discussions episodes in the weeks and months ahead