How the Book of Mormon was Composed
Original Air Date: 2022-08-10
This video serves as a culmination of the previous nine episodes of the "LDS Discussions" series on the Mormon Stories Podcast. Hosted by John Dehlin with contributors Mike (from ldsdiscussions.com) and Nemo the Mormon, the discussion synthesizes previously established evidence—such as treasure digging, biblical anachronisms, and translation methods—to present a comprehensive theory on how Joseph Smith composed the Book of Mormon 1, 2.
Here is a detailed summary of the arguments and evidence presented in the video:
The "Imbalanced Equation" of Apologetics
The hosts argue that LDS leadership creates an "imbalanced equation" where the conclusion (that the book is ancient and divine) is predetermined, regardless of the evidence 3.
The Timeline of Composition
The video challenges the "miraculous" claim that the book was produced in just 85 days.
Sources and "Bricolage"
The hosts argue Joseph Smith used bricolage—constructing a work from a diverse range of available things—to write the book.
Evidence of Oral Dictation
The text contains "fingerprints" of an orally dictated stream of consciousness rather than a translation from engravings.
Complexity of Names and Places
The video disputes the claim that the book’s hundreds of unique names prove its ancient origin.
A 19th-Century Time Capsule
The summary concludes with a quote from Alexander Campbell, a contemporary of Joseph Smith. Campbell noted in 1831 that the Book of Mormon resolved every major religious controversy of 1820s New York—including infant baptism, the trinity, and freemasonry—rather than addressing issues relevant to ancient America 31. The hosts argue the book is a "time capsule" of the 19th century, written by the only person capable of weaving his specific life events, biblical knowledge, and cultural environment into a single narrative: Joseph Smith 32, 33.
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hello everyone and welcome to another edition of mormon stories podcast i am one of your co-hosts for today john delin we are here in this amazing series that we've dubbed lds discussions uh where we're drawing from the amazing content that can be found at ldsdiscussions.com with the original author of most of the lds discussions content he's going by mike um in in the series hey mike thanks for joining us again hey everybody good to be here and we're also uh super excited to have joining us uh today as a co-host uh nemo from the uk hey nemo hi everyone how you doing all right well uh well mike uh today we are um if i'm if i've got this right um where are we in the sequence with this episode where this is number 10 right how the book sounds right yeah it sounds great so we're building on our episodes about treasure digging gold plates book of mormon translation tight versus loose dna um surrounding influences in the book of mormon anachronisms king james version all that stuff uh is kind of building to uh this episode which i think is really important because for me one of the most important things grant palmer did in his book an insider's view of mormon origins is he put forward a plausible hypothesis for how the book of mormon was put together and whether or not you think he did a good job on that it it's one of very few attempts at credibly explaining what for many of us was this sort of um this sort of challenge put forth by uh mormon leaders and mormon apologists which is off the book of mormon's just so freaking amazing how did a dumb yokel uneducated farm boy created in three months and that's kind of the gauntlet that's been thrown down is that right mike yeah and i think this episode is going to be a bit of a culmination of the first you know nine which is to say that we've gone through treasure digging the story of the gold plates the translation issues within the book of mormon the king james but all of that stuff is going to play into this which is to say we cannot tell you how joseph smith wrote the book of mormon because we weren't there and so we can all we could do is say this is what we know happened and this is how we know joseph smith was doing certain parts of it and that allows you then to make a very educated guess as to how he did it and how he did it within the timeline and to kind of answer what you said as far as the church's kind of um equations that they put forth and and once you can kind of do that using all the info we've done in the previous episodes it becomes easy to understand how he could have done it without having to worry about the actual specific mechanics of what he was doing with with regards to like what was in the room what notes or notes he may or may not have had that kind of stuff is is important but we will never know that but we can tell you where he is pulling from and how it fits into the book of mormon and why those fingerprints and why those clues tell us how he did it i love it really quickly mike is there an is there an essay that informs this episode i'm not seeing it on the slides and all the other oh yeah i forgot to yeah there is one it's um ldsdiscussions.com authorship and um that will basically be this section with a little bit more you know detail just because you know we don't have to uh kind of cover every bit of it but this this will cover the main points and then if you want more you can go to ldsdiscussions.com authorship and then read the longer kind of overview with links and all of that okay we'll include that in the show notes a couple other quick things i'll i'll add we're trying to respond to feedback some are saying they like the panel discussion and they like uh slowing things down and summarizing major points others are saying they just want to hear mike go fast um and so we're going to just try and balance that we've got nemo here we are going to try and only contribute when we feel like it's really adding to the conversation but we also are going to make it um hopefully digestible and and valuable to people who are newer uh to these questions not just the experienced people that want to zip through it we want to encourage you to use speeding up to go faster either in video or audio form your your apps including youtube will allow you to do that please speed this up if we're going too slow please slow it down if we're going too fast and feel free to go to youtube and use the jump codes where we're trying to give you time codes to jump to sections of this episode or to jump back as you need it and then finally we plan on releasing all of this as a standalone podcast under the brand lds discussions for people that don't want to wade through all the other mormon stories content in between so look for that lds discussions as its own standalone episode and on youtube under the mormon stories channel we um we are making a playlist so if you want to just watch the youtube videos in succession there's an lds discussions playlist in the mormon stories channel that you can use to just kind of binge watch these episodes now having said all that nemo we we know you've done some work in this regard is there anything you want to say in the opener before we jump in well in regards to this topic yeah yeah i did a video uh rebutting the church when they did a video about the pokemon how can it not be true and they made a series of claims about you know how long it should take you to write it how many pages it should be how many words it should contain all of which falls down under scrutiny and um i'll do my best to remember some of that i've got my old notes here and i'll try and add that to the discussion okay um all right well we're super excited to to kind of jump in yeah so mike our first slide um is about putting the pieces all together yeah and so this actually i probably kind of just said this a few minutes ago but you know this is the 10th episode so the first nine was basically taking us from joseph's miss treasure digging all the way through the book of mormon and so now we're kind of taking those first nine episodes and looking at all of the clues and fingerprints that we have from those first nine to kind of give us a better understanding not of the how how the mechanics of how joseph smith produced it but how we can show that joseph smith did it um and give us a road map as to like where he was pulling from and the techniques he was using because we'll never be able to say with 100 certainty how he did it because we weren't there but we can show you that no one else but joseph smith could have written it and we can show you where he was pulling from and that alone will give us a really good indication as to where the book of mormon came from and what that says about its claims to being an ancient authentic text and i'll just say as someone who's been doing this for 20 years i highly recommend people if you're just joining us now and you haven't watched the prior nine episodes it this episode will be much much much more valuable if you pause this go watch the other nine in sequence because this is building and it's building in really important ways that someone who's been studying this stuff for 20 years is finding super valuable so i just want to add my my experience to what you're saying yeah thanks okay uh so how the mormon church imbalances the equation what do you mean by that mike yeah and this is one of those things that we'll talk about as we go through this episode which is to say that if the within mormonism and and i can say this is a convert you know i'm still a member but not active but when you listen to talks when you go to sunday school uh you know gospel doctrine whatever they're going to start with an equation where the conclusion is already set which is to say no matter what variables variables you put into the equation the conclusion has to be that it's an ancient historical record and one of the things i've talked about in a lot of these earlier episodes is to say that you have to start with a clean slate if you really want to know whether or not the church's truth claims hold up and if you don't do that you're always going to get to the conclusion that you're being led to and so within mormonism we have a lot of elements of this where members and leaders will will basically imbalance the equation in this particular one we are looking at three quotes i wanted to do before we get too far into the um actual parts of the book of mormon and so the first one is tad callister who um i believe was a a general authority for the church and he had wrote the book a case for the book of mormon and so he said the current argument being made is that joseph smith was a creative genius who read numerous books such as view of the hebrews and the late war between the united states and great britain and then copied ideas and stories from them this of course is a total flip-flop a 180 degree reversal from the original argument that joseph smith was incapable too ignorant to write such a book now all of a sudden joseph is a skilled creative writer with genius intellect why the flip-flop because all the previous explanations for a man-made book had failed and so that is what ted callister will tell members and it's just it's a that is setting the equation that no matter what info you find it ultimately has to lead to the church is true there's no way around it i mean the real reason gasping you're normally really reserved and i'm hearing audible gasps sorry it's a new sensitive microphone i think uh i want to hear it it's so frustrating because the reason for the flip-flop is actually because we've now discovered that the church's narrative that joseph smith was a poor and educated farm boy doesn't stand up to scrutiny he was actually quite a curious young man who did have some schooling at least this idea that he was just completely stupid was something the church tried to push not not critics and that doesn't stand to scrutiny anymore yeah that makes sense yeah it i think i don't know if if uh poisoning the well or stacking the deck are the right analogies here or some combination of the two but but you really do get the sense that the church wants to try and control the narrative from the beginning so that people don't just take an objective scientific view yeah i mean like i said i just i think by by calling it a flip-flop you're basically you are you're poisoning the wealth you're saying the critics of the church are basically just rolling around on the ground in circles because they can't figure this out and the truth is you know you you as we'll see in this episode you can absolutely line up why critics can say that this is not an ancient text and there is no um you know all of these different areas we've talked about whether it's you know dna migration linguistics archaeology biblical scholarship all of those things are pointing to the same conclusion and so that's why from the church's perspective you start with the conclusion then you have to fill the variables to to make that stay but again what he's saying is really it's just very it's a strawman argument and we'll talk about tad more as we go because he is very good at making these kinds of arguments that he knows full well are not at all the position of people who are critical of the book of mormon but he does it in a way that to the members is basically telling them hey smarter people than you have looked at this they're fine you know don't worry about these people who can't figure it out for themselves because he doesn't want to tell you what their arguments are because once you tell the real arguments the game is over and so this is just how it works and how it's how it worked when i was an active member as well it's every road has to lead to the churches true just a real quick point there if i may uh the only institution in this situation or the only kind of party that values a linear undisrupted unchanging narrative is the lds church so they try and paint people who criticize the church as flip-flopping i.e their opinions change or they've moved from one position to another but they've moved from one position to another because the evidence has led them there the church is the one that's demonizing those people or representatives of the church to demonizing those people because from that perspective from the church perspective they don't want the things to change they don't want to accept new evidence they don't want to have to change the narrative because they have one very standardized narrative that they like to tell yeah absolutely i love it all right so the next slide is starting with the conclusion and working backwards yeah so this is effectively picking up from the last slide and just there's two more quotes i want to read just because i think it illustrates um where the leaders have been with regards to how they uh i guess discuss the book of mormon's historicity and so jeffrey r holland said and this is a quote you'll probably be able to hear him say in your head but if anyone is foolish enough or misled enough to reject 531 pages of a heretofore unknown text teeming with literary and semitic complexity without honestly attempting to account for the origin of those pages especially without accounting for the powerful witness of jesus christ and the profound spiritual impact that witness has uh has had on what is now tens of millions of readers if that is the case since such a person elector under otherwise has been deceived if he or she leaves this church it must be done by crawling over or under or around the book of mormon to make that exit and then russell nelson said in 1999 this appeal to all people must involve many languages and the work of skilled translators the king james version of the bible for example was produced by 50 english scholars who accomplished their work in seven years translating at the rate of one page per day expert translators today do well if they can also translate scripture at the rate of one page per day in contrast joseph smith translated the book of mormon at the rate of about 10 pages per day completing the task in about 85 days many of us feel good if we can read the book in that time [Music] and yeah these are just they're setting up an equation that just is not supported by the evidence and they're setting it from the from the the answer and then trying to work the information into that answer and it's just that's not how it works nemo why are you smiling can you bring yeah jeffrey holland on the screen again where he says essentially a hater for unknown text well we're gonna pull that apart i'm sure and then he says he says without honestly attempting so there's a loaded statement right there because you'll question your honesty if he doesn't think you've done it the way he thinks you should do it attempting to account for the origin of those pages well critics of course attempt to account for the origin he's trying to make an argument for ignorance he's saying well if you can't prove how it was done then it must have been done the way i said it was it's not the case and then he switches especially without accounting for their powerful witness of jesus christ well powerful witness of jesus christ is purely subjective to him he feels they're a powerful witness jesus christ others may disagree so he's take he's trying to make objective statements that or objective tasks that people have to live up to that are purely subjective in nature and then i'll just i'll just add my massive objection to russell nelson's quote is he's talking about how long it takes to do actual genuine authentic translation but none of us are arguing that joseph smith was translating yeah and so for him to put some standard of one page a day as kind of like as the standard and then joseph was 10 times as fast as that that's by it's just just face value disingenuous because we're saying that he had and we'll talk about this six or however many years to write you know creative fan fiction basically and then all he had to do was find a way to dictate that in a way where his scribes wouldn't catch on that he was dictating something pre-written we are saying the last thing joseph actually did was do authentic translation of ancient you know languages that either didn't exist in the case of reformed egyptian or that joseph smith didn't know in the case of hebrew or you know um you know greek and even if he did even if he did they always make this claim he did it by the gift and power of god right right so all of a sudden then appealing to secular translators who were in you know we were there the other day john who are in a small college in oxford they're translating a book at a rate of a page a day which you know a page is an arbitrary measure how large of a page how big is the font all that sort of stuff they're translating by secular means doing the best they can right some say they were inspired men joseph's claim is that god gave this to him out of a hat and he said it out loud and it was written down of course it's going to be quicker yep i mean it should have been he should have been able to finish it in the weekend yeah right yeah what's he playing now taking 85 days that's just that even even if you want to claim joseph was translating he wasn't actually translating joseph smith at best was reading off of a rock and a half so you can't even make like you said you can't make the claim that it's even and if you want to make that claim if russell nelson wants to make that claim look at how fast joseph smith dictates the book of mormon versus how slowly he translates the book of abraham where he's actually trying to and now again we know the book abraham translation is wrong i'm not arguing that i'm just saying when joseph smith is forced to use a source material in front of other people he works way slower than if he is claiming to be reading um off of a you know a stone in a hat and so that alone is a completely disingenuous argument that russell nelson knows he's making because he's actually spoken about you know the stone more so than other leaders have so he knows full well the process and so to make this argument is like basically an appeal to authority to the members to say listen this is too miraculous for you stop questioning it yeah it's almost a form of thought stopping um and and to say kind of these are not the droids you're looking for just kind of move on okay so the next slide is revisiting uh the book of mormon production timeline yeah and just to say like as as russell nelson's quote illustrates one of the areas where the church proclaims the book of mormon is just too miraculous is the timeline and so nelson states in the above or the earlier quote um that the book of mormon was completed in just 85 days which on the surface obviously seems pretty amazing for a book that's 270 000 words we've covered this in the translation episode we did but when you get below the surface it's not nearly as miraculous and it actually becomes very explainable and to a certain extent somewhat ordinary um because remember that while joseph smith is claimed to have only taken 85 days to develop the book of mormon he's going to have over five years to develop the stories to test them out with his family and that is ultimately going to allow him to write a faster book or to dictate a faster book because he's already working out the material to the point where he has this outer shell that he's been working with for years this is not something that joseph smith just one day starts doing and finishes in 85 days this is a very long process yeah and and that's why also you you have to add you have to watch the previous nine episodes because also there are so many errors and rookie problems and mistakes and glaring anachronisms and fingerprints that that these statements from these glowing statements from holland and nelson and gibbons and others about how miraculous the book is it's it's um it's a it's a straw man or it's it's it's uh deceptive because it's not taking into account all the many problems that we discussed in in episodes one through nine yeah yeah i mean that's pretty much the way to look at i think you know we'll get to it later too but you gotta remember that when you talk about we'll talk about this more as we go because there's a slide on it but the book of mormon that joseph smith wrote is not the book of mormon you read on sundays ends or i guess any day and so if you read the book of mormon original manuscripts and someone put that in front of you you would not find it nearly as miraculous as you might find the book of mormon as it is and i think that's another thing that the church doesn't want to talk about you know they talk about presentism and all that they always throw that out there but at the same time they're constantly referring to a translation or a dictation process um that led to a manuscript that is very very very much folksy and unreadable compared to what has been edited and shaped into the book of mormon as we have it today not to mention the actual changes to the substance in the yes oh yeah that's kind of getting into the content of it just a really interesting point uh if i can make it really quick is that the welsh edition of the book of mormon right here is um the translation of which was done in 1852 and has not been updated so actually this is a book still in production by the church that has the text of the book of mormon looking like this block paragraphs yeah that's right very similar to some of the early transcripts that joseph smith put together so you can still get produced by the church a copy of the book of mormon that looks a lot like it did back then a lot less miraculous yeah okay um let's let's move on to lucy max smith on joseph's development of book of mormon stories yeah and this this is kind of where it all begins right yes and this is from lucy max smith's um autobiography and she's talking about basically after joseph smith claims the first visitation about the gold plates which would be in 1823 and so she says from this time forth joseph continued to receive instruction from time to time and every evening we gathered our children together and gave our time up to the discussion of those things which he instructed to us in the course of our evening conversations joseph gave us some of the most amusing recitals which could be imagined he would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent their dress their manner of traveling the animals which they rode they didn't ride animals back then the cities that they built and the structure of their buildings with every particular their mode of warfare and their religious worship is specifically as though he had spent his life with them the angel informed him at one time that he might make an effort to obtain the plates on the 22nd of the ensuing september which is obviously a folk magic date which covered that in the translation and the um episodes but this quote is telling us joseph smith wasn't just talking about these stories he was talking about them in such amazing detail night after night to his family and that is how you can work through ideas in your head about these stories for years before you write them down and it's um i've said it before in a previous episode but comedians do this all the time when they come up with a new set of material they'll do them at small clubs where people don't know who they are or they don't know they're going to be there and so they could tell these jokes and they keep changing the wording they keep changing the content until they get a 60-minute comedy set that they know is going to you know kill at the clubs or you know bigger stadiums whatever this is joseph smith working through a lot of the kinks early on because you can read the room you can tell from your family what stories gravitate they gravitate to which ones resonate which ones they they appeal to them and so joseph smith is for a long time telling stories before he even has the plates about every particular of these people and that should give us a very good indication that he is working with these stories long before he even tries to dictate them to martin harris or oliver cowdery yeah we're talking eight years of storytelling character development plot preparation that calstr and holland and others and nelson are not being honest about yeah i mean yeah i mean it's it's like it you cannot just say it's 85 days when you know our next slide will go we'll have a better timeline but it this is a process that has a lot of very important events and also shows you how wide it goes and i think that's one of the things that they're never going you know if you go to the next slide because this is something they're never going to put in the manuals but remember in 1823 joseph is claiming the visitation regarding the gold plates and he's beginning to tell these stories according to his own mother so i don't think anyone can argue she's a bad witness here in 1827 he claims to retrieve the gold plates in 1828 he begins the dictation with martin harris but they lose 116 pages and then in 1829 now five and a half years later the book of mormon as we have it today dictation begins with oliver cowdery so not only does joseph smith spend five and a half years developing these stories by telling them to his family but the 116 pages are a really good dress rehearsal for him to figure out the dictation process to figure out how to um best use his time to maybe you know give a chunk and then take a break all of those things are going to give him as unfortunate as losing those pages were it gives him effectively a do-over to start fresh and learn from that experience so not only does he have five and a half years but he also got effectively a do-over so he could fix or you know be more efficient with his dictation and also get a better feel for how he needs to um come up with the ideas you know maybe in the morning versus breaks all that so all of these things are to his benefit to being able to create this this book and this is something that the church never puts in their manuals because it really takes away a lot of the miraculousness of that 85 day timeline and i can't recommend 116 pages episode that we did highly enough because it it it's so sketchy that uh as soon as the 116 pages gets lost he just miraculously loses his ability to translate but really what what makes more sense is he's got the story that he's already pretty much written out that he's been dictating that you know because he's been working on it for years and he's got to figure out two things you know one is the is the manuscript going to come back yes or no two how's the loss of the manuscript going to affect the rest of the story that he's already written and then how's he going to go back and rewrite the beginning and that that is the most plausible explanation for why he quote lost his power to translate what he really had to do is figure out how to um to how to work with the fact that that his long long uh developed plan was now disrupted by lucy you know nemo anything you want to add not particularly other than it's you know along with the other contemporary sources around him which i'm sure we probably get to later on in this um there's no reason that the the video that the church put out said there must be no research of any kind and there's no reason for that even even if you're claiming divine inspiration you know i like to play devil's advocate sometimes even if you're claiming he was divinely inspired there's no reason that when he got the plates in 27 he wasn't meditating on them and thinking on them and gaining inspiration from god pre-translation right because it happened the next year he click he got them in september and it took him until at least january i'm not sure when it started but you know he had a few months at least where he just had the plates and then so there's no reason for him not to have been developing the story beforehand if i want if i want viewers and listeners to remember anything is that the 85 days the 90 days is a red herring we're talking six to ten years not handy days i mean it would be like you know i love music and so it'd be like a band that's writing an album and they're gonna spend months in the studio or just in the rehearsal space writing songs and coming up with lyrics and getting the you know i like i like rock music so the guitar solos a lot and they might only be in the studio for two weeks but they'll never sit there and tell you i wrote that entire album we did that whole album two weeks we're gonna say we spent months in you know writing it by ourselves we got together i mean all of those things go into it but the church only wants to to lob off that 85 days because if they do that it seems miraculous but they're ignoring intentionally the timeline that is well documented that joseph smith had years to develop these stories and in fact was doing so as per his own mother and so you know to your point it's just it's it's dishonest in the sense of they know better this is not something where there's any debate whether or not he was you know i guess people could say lucy mack was was lying but she was writing that autobiography to privilege her own son she's not going to put him in a hole um and you know what i mean like that that just goes against what a loving mom would do for her son so there is absolutely no reason to use that 85 day timeline um when you know there's more involved gears before it just it it's a very like you said it's just a deceptive uh way to frame it it's the the most expensive way to practice your music is in a recording studio exactly you can't do it there the most difficult thing for joseph to practice his storytelling is in front of the scribe that he has wants to keep on the side yeah because yeah and that that's a perfect point because you want to you have to have the story in as good of shape as you can before you do the dictation because i do believe oliver caldery believed joseph smith was was getting this through another divine means so if joseph smith is practicing the story in front of oliver the gig is up and so to your point nemo like he has to make sure the practice is done before he does that so that he avoids what could be some landmines um that maybe he had worked out by telling these stories elsewhere and so yeah that's exactly the same process as he's getting it all set up so that when he gets into the dictation process with oliver or martin um he's able to do it in a way that isn't going to um basically screw himself over he's going to do it in a way where at least he's comfortable enough that he can get through chunks at a time take a break and then regather his thoughts and that's a really good like what you just said is a really good way to frame it so the next slide is no one could produce the book of mormon in 90 days that's the canard right yeah and we discussed this in the translation episodes we don't need to do too much but you know the book of mormon is 273 000 words long and that includes all the material that was brought in from the king james bible which is a lot it's from the isaiah the sermon on the mount all that stuff so but even including that just for sake of argument if you give an estimate of 85 days that requires 3 200 words a day being written down and john hammer he did an episode with you about how the book of mormon was composed and he talks about how the average dictation time is about 1200 words per hour to remain clear clean legible handwriting so if you take 3 200 words and divide it by 1200 that means that they only needed to be spending a little bit under three hours a day in that actual process which means that joseph smith actually had a ton of time during each day to do a chunk say you know what let's eat let's have lunch or do a chunk and say i need to use you know use the bathroom uh take a walk along the river throw some skip some rocks whatever and as he's doing that he can come up with that next section you know you in your head say you have five or six major main main concepts you want to do you do them you see i'm gonna let's go get something to eat then he takes a walk and as he's walking he you know he thinks about what he said he can then plan the next section when you only are doing it for 2 hours and 40 minutes a day that gives you a lot of time to do other things and it also gives you a lot of time to be away from the people you're working with so you can gather your thoughts you can look at things i'm not saying he's working off of a manuscript i'm saying he probably has a story in his head and every time he takes a break he may look at where he where he finished off and say okay this is where i got to start and this is what i wanted to do next it just it gives him so much time to plan yet when we think about it from like the church's narrative it feels like he's in a room just doing this continuously for 85 days and then it's just done but he has a lot of free time within this process within and that's staying within a fair uh time for dictation we're not pushing like john hamer said they could actually go a lot faster if you aren't worried about being as clean this is a pretty reasonable um measurement of what would be required part of me wonders uh the real kind of analyst in me wonders whether if you took the book of mormon and you say they took a break every hour i wonder if you can find a patent through the book of mormon where there's just where you find joseph uses particular filler words that he would use when he starts off an oral dictation again i wonder whether you could find that pattern every thousand or so words you know where it starts with a big yay and it came to pass or something i mean that's everywhere but you know whether whether there was i wonder would there be an identifier that you could actually use to kind of pin down where he starts his oral dictation sessions the other thing is do you want those facts and figures for for the amount of isaiah there are in the book of mormon is that useful yeah that'd be great yeah so i did the maths on that um 14 767 words uh of isaiah across 21 chapters of isaiah are quoted in the book of mormon directly so that's 5.3 percent of the book of mormon if you take 1 709 more words which are paraphrased so they're not exact quotes but they're paraphrased that gives you six percent of the book of mormon is isaiah the phrase it came to pass accounts for 5904 words of the book of mormon or 2.15 so you're getting close to 10 of the book of mormon that is hilarious 10 of the book of mormon almost is and it came to pass and direct quotes from isaiah i haven't even counted matthew or other biblical hearts king james new testament yeah yeah i haven't counted any of that yet it's just that alone is almost a tenth of the entire book yeah and that that's a lot i mean that's just it and so all of a sudden now you would require even less words to be i mean they have still to be dictated because joseph could read out the bible but it'll be less taxing it'll be quicker because he's not having to sit there and think every sentence he's just reading and making small changes and so like nemo said the more you drill down you would expect it to become more and more impossible but the reality is the more you drill down the more and more ordinary it starts to feel um because of the fact that we can start to see these clues as to where he's pulling from yeah and i will make sure and include in the show notes links to the john hamer episode on mormon stories which is a really important episode and by the way john hamer is not anti-mormon he is a high-level leader in community of christ that still respects the tradition of joseph smith so he's a very credible witness he is and he's amazing at his knowledge about not just book of mormon stuff but biblical scholarship and and he does it in a way that is absolutely kind and gentle and he's not you know going out there and just saying it's all garbage he's just trying to say this is what historically would have happened and that's the same conclusion that other scholars are going to come to because we're again when you talk about the equation if you if you start with a clean equation you say look at the variables what do the variables tell us that's where you're going to end up it's not because we're trying to say the book of mormon is garbage we're not even saying the book of mormon is bad we're just saying it's explainable yeah okay next slide setting the equation while ignoring the evidence yeah and this is just you know i mentioned this earlier but when people talk about how the book of mormon feels so miraculous today just mention that the original manuscript would read so much more folksy run on sentences no chapters no verses and so this little image is part of the original manuscript that survived that is basically a bunch of run-on sentences and again when you talk about how could the book of mormon been written in such a short time frame i wish members when they heard that question from leaders were given the original manuscript to read because the original manuscript would be a lot less impressive than what we have today and that is another area where the church is really good at kind of controlling the narrative of they say oh you can't talk about the past for some things and some things you can't and this is a case where they're like we don't even want to talk about the what it originally read as because as we talked about in our earlier episodes there's there's stuff we'll say like and he was a run and and stuff like that where if you read it today be like oh my goodness that is not great um and so they try to make the most polished equation they can to keep you from getting to a different conclusion but again they're giving you a book that's been through so many edits and and made so much more readable and and even then we're not even getting into the content i'm just talking about the readability of it am i right in saying that the it was the typesetters and the um printers that put the grammar in the original pokemon i i think i remember hearing once that when they were printing the book of mormon they were like literally the original book of mormons all have changes because they were fixing things as they were printing and so they were changing the whole way through and i think they were trying to make it more grammatically good i don't know if the chapters and verses were done then or not i'm not sure chapters i and i what i'm going to do is i'm going to include a link to to the joseph and i've got it here shown on the screen the joseph smith papers project which i think for many of us is a is a good thing overall yeah it's a great thing um it shows on the left-hand side the um the book of mormon manuscript as it was you know written down by scribes uh the the you know the the parts that we still have in our possession right and then in the right-hand side it shows how scholars have converted into you know computer electronic text yeah um and it yeah there's no chapters uh there's there's no section headers right there's there's no verses it's just run-on sentences but it's not just run-on sentences there's awful spelling errors awful grammar errors um and it's run-on sentences and there's there's all this folksy language yeah that um you know just makes it far far less impressive and it's something that that the church leaders would never you know it's the type of thing where they want it they now want it available so that people can't claim that they're hiding things or you know misleading anyone they can claim to be transparent but i can just promise you they do not want the average member looking at at this document right because it is so obviously less impressive um you know once you look at the actual you know scribes manuscript yeah i mean that's just and yeah that's that's just it yeah yep so so we'll include a link to that in the show notes so that you can judge for yourself don't believe us yeah go try and read it and you'll see how unimpressive it is yeah it becomes a lot less impressive and and it's just you know um and so one of the things that i mentioned earlier i think we all are in agreement we cannot tell you exactly how he did it we can't tell you if he had the king james bible open on the table we can't tell you if you know he was in you know any any of the actual mechanics because we weren't there but what we can tell you is the reasons why we can show from like a scholarly perspective why scholars can look at it and say it's not an ancient text and joseph smith absolutely could have written it and it's because as we've covered in our previous overviews there are surrounding influences from joseph smith's life and place that make their way into the book of mormon um the king james bibles language and passages are in the book of mormon it tells you right there that at the earliest that book could have been written in 1611 or in joseph smith's case 1769 is the version we think he had um there were specific revelations in the book of mormon that happen up until the book of mormon's production and then just completely fade away so you've got like columbus revolutionary war it predicts the charles anthony visit it predicts the book of mormon coming forth and then it just gets into very generic revelations um personal events in joseph smith's life end up in the book of mormon uh we met we have a reference to the 116 pages being lost about we mentioned in that episode about borrowing and causing sin for you and the person you borrowed from we have joseph's um father's dream which appears is lehi's dream we have the um anti-masonic feelings the mound builder myth a 19th century christology that predates jesus all of these things are giving us a very good idea of when the book is written and then the personal events and the surrounding influences help us narrow down the author to joseph smith beyond just the time it would have been written yeah yep and so this is kind of like the overview of what we're going to be talking about for the rest of this episode and it's summarizing the previous nine episodes that exactly we've already been uh discussing so far yes nemo anything that here no not particularly uh i'm just very excited i don't know if we get to view the hebrews in here uh no not really view of the hebrews we you know view the hubris we did that more um in the episode on surrounding influences and i think um yeah that one that one's not in this there's just there's just one thing i want to say about that yes please do if you go to joseph smith papers go to times of seasons june 1842 joseph smith quotes do the hebrews we have joseph smith quoting view of the hebrews so it's it's just in case you didn't cover that last time i think it's really important that people know not only was this just a book that was around in joseph smith's time he was aware of it and directly referenced it in church approved sources and i think what's cool about that is if i remember correctly when they reference it in the times of season they're almost referencing it as a way to say see the book of mormon is true because we have other sources that are saying similar ideas and that that you know to me i really know about the ten tribes yeah he was trying to try ten tribes yep and so i think that's really important to show that these these ideas that are all around them um end up in the book of mormon and um again i think that's why it's so easy to date it to the 19th century because that's when these things were of great concern to these to the people and for those who who are newer to these questions who don't know what we're talking about view the hebrews is a book that was written by oliver caldery's pastor you know in the congregation that oliver cowdery attended years before he became joseph smith's scribe and it's it's a book that is is well known to be something that was so troublesome to bh roberts a mormon historian in general authority that you know you can go to the shannon caldwell uh montez episodes about the secret mormon meetings of 1922. and the book that nemo's holding up which is called nemo uh studies of the book of mormon by b.h roberts great book these are legitimate uh challenges uh to the book of mormon authenticity by mentioning 19th century sources that we know joseph smith had access to yes yeah okay um so the next slide is the parable of the olive tree we're getting specific now now this one is one um i want to give a shout out because this is an article and i couldn't find out who wrote the original article but i believe it was anthony miller who's been on mormon um stories and he had did a uh overview on i think facebook about it and then bill reel had done a podcast on the facebook post and this story was one when i listened to it it blew me away because this is the perfect way to illustrate how joseph smith was taking multiple sources and then trying to weave it into the book of mormon and making mistakes in the process and so these next few slides will be reading a lot but i promise you this is a really great example of how joseph smith wrote the book of mormon and so um this is from the parable allegory of the olive tree which is in jacob five and in this story jacob retells an allegory from excuse me zenos uh that was recorded on the brass plates retrieved from laban and so um this chapter is referenced all the time as evidence for the book of mormon because they say there's no way joseph smith could have known this specific information olive horticulture and there's just no way he could have guessed it and so daniel c peterson who was the writer of a book i believe called like offenders for a word how critics deceive and play word games or something like that is going to do that exact same thing here so he says um one of the single most famous chapters in the book of mormon is jacob five which recounts a lengthy olive tree allegory that it credits to a pre-lehigh old world prophet unknown to the bible that identifies as zenus according to an article by several professional botanists nearly all of the allegory and jacob 5 corresponds exceptionally well with both ancient and modern botanical principles and horticulture practice practices it is hard to imagine that its author was not personally familiar with the minute details and practices involved in raising good olives in a mediterranean climate moreover although some very limited information about olive cultivation might be derived through careful focused study of the bible and a few other books that were available during joseph smith's early years though likely not anywhere near where he lived they contain only sparse details and here's another problem joseph smith probably had little knowledge of olive trees in new york as they will not grow in the northeastern united states okay so like i'm i i remember reading jacob five in the book of mormon and all that grafting and you know grafting olive tree language thinking wow this is a lot of specificity how could a uneducated yoko farm boy in his late teens early 20s have come up with it i think that's a fair you know i'm daniel c peterson's making a good point here yeah well we'll get into it in the next slides but yeah i'm setting it up yeah you are and that's just it because that is one of the ways that apologists are so good at playing word games where they'll throw a little bit in there so that if someone calls them out they can say see i did mention that he might have known if he really studied the bible when he knows full well that as we'll go in the next few slides all of that information was available to him and um so this is from the write-up i mentioned it's linked on the um overview page and we'll have it in there but they say there are two major biblical passages that provided structural material for this parable in a number of shorter passages that supplied secondary ideas the primary passages are isaiah's parable of the vineyard contained in isaiah 51 1-7 in paul's discussion of the relationship of israel to the gentiles in romans 11 16-24 in which he is the metaphor of an olive tree um and so right off the bat you could see here that joseph smith is not only pulling from the king james bible but he's pulling both from the old testament isaiah and the new testament which would not have been on the brass blades or noble to anyone in the book of mormon so right off the bat we have issues because we could see that joseph smith is pulling from new testament which they would not have had access to okay nemo do you want to do you want to add anything there just something snarky it's almost as though he took no concern for the chronology of his own book compared to the sources he was ripping from because it it to me my kind of personal view is that it had to be a good story had to be a compelling story joseph smith was about storytelling yeah it was from a storytelling tradition so as long as these things sounded good and these things evoked good emotion and good feeling and they were i think one of the reasons he personally he copied heavily from the king james version of the bible was because that is the language that would speak to the religiosity of the time yes so as long as it all sounded correct and like that he didn't care whether it was from before the events that technically happened in his book or after the events that happened in his book it was about the narrative for him exactly yeah i think so too and so let's continue on because it's going to be like like i said this is a lot of reading but i promise this will be a good payoff so back to the write-up that we we referenced on our website which is um that these two passages provided the framework upon which joseph smith built his parable is evident from several sources first both passages were quoted by joseph smith earlier in the book of mormon narrative isaiah's song of the vineyard is found in second nephi 15 paul was alluded to in 1st nephi 10 12-14 and other passages secondly several ideas presented in zenith's parable can be found in these two passages the theme of a well-tended vineyard which failed to produce good fruit is also a major theme of isaiah's passage likewise the contrast between wild and tame or natural fruit is found in isaiah from paul's discourse joseph smith obtained the idea of wild and natural branches as well as one of his other major themes that of cross grafting branches between trees we even find a few verbatim quotes from isaiah specifically the land owner's lament what could i have done more for my vineyard that is this has echoed in isaiah's parable what could have been done more to my vineyard that i have not done in it the most telling piece of evidence however is the fact that the two passages are built on slightly different metaphors isaiah used a vineyard to represent israel while paul used an olive tree in light of this it is significant that the prophet zenith appears to display some confusion about his own metaphor the parable of the vineyard begins with israel as an olive tree located in a vineyard however halfway through the narrative the metaphor suddenly switches to the vineyard itself significantly just at the point that the book of mormon quotes from isaiah from this point on the author repeatedly refers to the trees of the vineyard apparently forgetting that the parable started out with the olive trees as the primary metaphor and not grapevines in soap one attack can you summarize that foreign okay so basically uh joseph smith had been quoting this stuff before jacob he was already quoting it in nephi um we have some the olive tree stuff the olive tree stuff the vineyard allegory the olive tree allegory that's all so this whole dan peterson argument of where would he have got it from well he got it from isaiah and he got it from other parts of the bible so it's all in there and he was using it earlier as well so it's kind of reflexive within within his own text then you've got some very almost direct quotes of the uh keeper the vineyard or what more could i have done and then finally the bit that i'm clapping mike for because i'm so grateful someone asked like you've explained this to me as a seminary student i was so confused by jacob so confused because it's it just seemed to lose itself halfway through and so many people talk about this as being a really confusing and deep and difficult allegory but now we see it's because joseph was stealing two different allegories throwing them together and so you've got halfway from the beginning he's talking about a specific olive tree and then halfway through as he starts then quoting isaiah the text from isaiah was talking about the vineyard as a whole so then joseph smith loses the specificity and starts talking about the whole vineyard and lots of people will be thinking hang on wasn't he just talking about an individual tree why are we now talking about the whole vineyard what's going on so thank you mike my 14 year old self thanks you i guess viewers and listeners this is like the the the long ending of mark it wasn't until actually read that chapter and i saw how it like the the story completely reboots what is it a verse nine until you actually read it you don't realize how jarring it is yeah and so viewers and listeners may want to pause and just go read jake um jacob five right yeah go read it yeah see what nemo and mike are talking about in terms of the the metaphors just completely changing midstream yeah and and to say you know apologists are always saying oh uh different voices have to appear through the book of mormon this is an example of how that happens and this is an example of also why that's not always a good thing for the veracity of the book of mormon it's not always a good thing that there's multiple voices because if there's multiple voices halfway through a story supposedly being told or relayed by the same person yep that actually doesn't help that hinders yeah and we i think we covered one of those in another topic too so i mean this is something where joseph smith is i think we talked about the start of this episode he might have taken a break in the middle of this and then just kind of lost track of where he was because clearly he's pulling from these two sources because he realizes they're kind of similar but then all of a sudden you see the transition from one source to another and so when you look at it uh like from an overhead view and you look at the start and the finish like they're on two different planes and it's because he was using two sources and just kind of got con almost like he got tripped up and then just went a different direction but when you're like like you you said you know when you when you study it if you actually think about this stuff you're like why is why is this kind of clunky and it's because he was he was basically riffing off of two biblical sources one of which is anachronistic in the new testament but because of that it trips him up as he's orally dictating and that's another reason why i don't think he had some manuscript because if he had a manuscript i think he would have done a better job of keeping it keeping it straight but because he's orally dictating it allows him to kind of get tripped up and then he probably didn't even realize he was tripped up because he's doing it off the top of his head and it leaves this huge mistake that is a really good indicator not just that joseph smith is riffing off of ideas but where he's pulling from and exactly when he loses track of what he's pulling from it's a really big i think it's a huge one to me yeah and in addition to it being a great example of illustrating what we're talking about it's also a great example of the dishonesty of mormon apologetics because daniel c peterson knows better and book of mormon central knows better and this is a really really insulting bad argument um but also nemo you've really brought to me kind of an aha moment because so often when we read the book of mormon we didn't get stuff or when we went to the temple we didn't understand stuff it seemed confusing and because we were primed to believe it was a sacred miraculous text any time something seemed off we just immediately went to wow well it's so advanced and so profound my my primitive uh un-spiritual mind just can't get the sophistication but if you take off those rose-colored glasses and just go wait a minute what if it's confusing and disjointed because it was written by an uneducated farm boy that was just bricolaging a bunch of disjointed sources into some some um you know some bible fan fiction then all of a sudden that makes a lot a lot more sense to somebody you're like why does why does a masonic ceremony not make any sense to try and teach me about the creation of the earth ah maybe because that's what it was never intended for but joseph took it and tried to make it work for that yeah it's just it yeah yeah and so okay going back to the the write-up so this kind of go continues what we're talking about with with this parable is there are at least three shorter passages that provide structural material for zenith's parable the concept of the lord at the vineyard of the lord of the vineyard and his servant for example is found in one of jesus's parables recorded in luke 13. from this passage we find the source of smith's repeated reference to useless branches cumbering the ground and the trees it is from this passage too that smith obtained the references to digging and dumping we also here find the servant counseling as master against the wholesale destruction of the vineyard a scene which is repeated in zenith's parable the concept of unfruitful branches being hewn down hund down hewn down and burned is found in matthew 3 10 in john 15 6. matthew 3 10 was quoted verbatim in alma 552 which was dictated before the book of jacob according to the the what we talked about before of with the replacement text um verse 8 of matthew 3. bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance is quoted several times in the book of mormon and book of mormon in alma as well thus we see that rather than representing an actual ancient parable zenith's story of the vineyard is actually a conflation of several sources some of which would not even be written for several hundred years and so that's just putting a bow and we talked about earlier because joseph smith here is not just using those two main sources but he's got a couple of other sources that are kind of providing the backbone that he is referencing in other parts of the book of mormon some of which before jacob was written and so to your point about bricolage this is joseph smith weaving a bunch of stuff that's available to him as a new story to push his own theology and we can see his fingerprints all over it because as it shows here we know exactly where he's pulling from we know he's pulling from the king james bible and that dates the text and tells us how it was created yeah and and what do we know about joseph smith he knew the bible really well so it fits the the the um alleged author right it completely fits his profile so not only do we now know for sure what danish peterson was trying to deceive us about we know the source of jacob five it's the king james version of the bible and we know that the author of the king james version of the bible had the command of the king james version of the bible well enough to do the bricolage needed to come up with jacob live yeah and and keep this in mind when you hear the quote from emma smith where she says they're doing the dictation and joseph looks up pale as a ghost and says emma where were there were there walls around jerusalem and she's like yeah and he's like oh i thought i was being deceived that is how you know joseph smith knew the bible he spoke the bible he read the bible all the time and those are the little things you do if you are trying to convince people you are speaking to a divine source those are the things you do to keep people believing that you have that power so i'm not saying that emma's making the story up i'm saying it's very possible joseph smith throws that in there because he knows that's a really good opportunity to get emma to believe further that he's not basically making this up and it shows you that joseph smith would have absolute or put a different way if joseph smith really didn't know emma probably didn't know either because joseph was that familiar with the bible to be able to pull all of these sources into this allegory that many of these sources would not have been available to the book mormon people so they would not have had access to it it just shows you how adept he was both as a storyteller and how well he knew the bible to be able to pull these things out almost on the fly in the dictation does show that he was a gifted at being able to weave surrounding materials together to fit what he was trying to accomplish all right so the next slide is revisiting daniel c peterson's quotes on jacob yeah and so we just you know kind of to kind of you know do a little chasmus and get back to the beginning here um what's great about this this piece is that when daniel peterson originally starts off he's setting up that familiar concept of how could joseph smith have known while he also tucks in that little detail that says although some very limited information about olive cultivation might be derivable through careful focused study of the bible um so basically what i'm saying is daniel peterson knew what he was doing and the fact that he writes a book called offenders for a word how anti-mormons play word games to attack the latter-day saints just look at what he does here with this jacob 5 argument and then tell me how he can have any self of sense of dignity and write the title of a book called offenders for a word how anti-mormons play word games to attack the latter-day saints and again i try really hard not to bash like specific apologies but daniel c peterson is really bad at being very antagonistic towards critics and he does it in the most dishonest ways and this is one where he knows full well that every single detail joseph smith put in there is from the bible and that's why he tucks that little thing in there for plausible deniability and he is he does this over and over and over again and to write that title is just so offensive because he is such a bad um example of how to portray the true history of mormonism in any way that's honest while still trying to be faith promoting sorry what are you holding i am incensed for the audio listeners i'm holding my tape here his name is daniel for a reason right daniel peterson is the man that gave us nephite loan words the word horse actually means tapia you want to talk about a man that plays word games he is the man that brought us this as the thing that was strung up with chariots and charged against armies and summoned at a moment's notice for great haste this so yeah yeah he has no right to call people out on playing word games no this is not a two koku fallacy because word games are not acceptable from anyone but my point is he does it and so for him to say it is not an acceptable act is hypocritical yes yep thank you nemo and thank you it's daniel right yeah daniel c peterson yeah and yeah okay so that leads us into another i think really great example of how joseph smith is pulling into the book of mormon and that is the use of malachi in the book of mormon and so malachi was written in the first half of the 5th century bce for it clearly presupposes the reconstructed temple which was dedicated in 57 516 bce but does not reflect the reconstitution of the religious community that took place under nehemiah and ezra about 450 bc so that's how scholars can kind of date the composition of malachi and this is important because malachi is then written after lehigh leaves with the brass plates and in the book of mormon they are aware of this issue and we know this because when jesus visits the nephites he says the following in 3 35 26 2 he says these scriptures which he had not with you the father commanded thy should give unto you for it was wisdom in him that they should be given unto future generations and this verse is reference referencing the extensive use of malachi in third nephi 24 and 25 and a key verse in the copying of malachi comes in third nephi 25 1 where it says for behold the day cometh that shall burn as an oven and all the proud yea and all that do wickedly shall be stubble and the day that cometh shall burn them up saith the lord of hosts that it shall leave them neither root nor branch and so this is just showing that malachi is really heavily used in third nephi and that in the book of mormon they're actually kind of going making sure to say you didn't have this but we're going to cite it so it does seem that joseph smith is aware of this based on what malachi contains so that is a hit for joseph smith in that regard but obviously it's going to turn in a second okay and so i think it's a free lunch with mike yeah and um so as the book of mormon tells us this is a verse that was unavailable to the nephites until jesus revealed it to him so jesus in the book of mormon says you did not have this right however this verse is going to work its way both into first and second nephi so first nephi 22 15 for behold saith the prophet the time cometh speedily that satan shall have no more power over the hearts of the children of men for the day soon cometh that all the proud and they who do wickedly shall be as stubble and the day cometh that they must be burned verse nephi 22 23 they are those who must be consumed as stubble and this is according to the words of the prophet second nephi 26 4 wherefore all those who are proud and those that do wickedly the day that cometh shall burn them up saith the lord of hosts for they shall be a stubble and second nephi 26 6 for the fire of the anger of the lord shall be kindled against them and they shall be a stubble and the day that cometh shall consume them saith the lord of hosts and so what i would like to ask is you guys probably could look at the next slide and see but why is this so problematic for the book of mormon i mean i i want to posit something okay you've got jesus jesus there the arbiter of all truth like a massive religious figurehead the one they've all been waiting for looking for signs of the coming of and he says i'm revealing scripture to you scripture that you didn't have before because i think it's important for you yeah all these people that have been waiting for jesus they know their scripture we see throughout the book of mormon that they've been preserving this scripture passing it online didn't know them go uh jesus we we already had that yeah it's already it's already here sorry well we're gonna say that no them call out jesus i'm going shouldn't you know we already had this here yeah you would think right i mean like and and that's just it and and and that is the this is one of those things where this is why if you if you watch the previous nine episodes this is a problem and it's a problem because the verses are used in the replacement text of the 116 pages which are written after third nephi so joseph smith is aware of it and third nephi so jesus says you guys didn't have it but then joseph smith forgets that when he writes the replacement text which takes place before it so first nephi and second nephi are written after third nephi so that's why they include that text because joseph smith likes those verses but chronologically in the book of mormon they take place first and so joseph smith in his replacement text again as we talked about in that last 116 pages episode is going to put material in there that has no place being there because as nemo said if that's truly part of the original text when jesus comes someone might be like this is awkward jesus but we already had that and and so this is why when we talked at the beginning the episode of how all those previous episodes we did are going to kind of come into play here this is why this example is so great because not only should they not have access to this material but it also further gives us indication that joseph smith kind of lost track when doing the replacement text that the bookmark people wouldn't have had access to it and so it's just it's like a it encompasses a lot of problems in one example and i think it's so powerful to show this is why you know joseph smith wrote the book of mormon because if he was really translating some secondary set of small plates they wouldn't have it because it would they wouldn't it just wouldn't be there because they don't have access to it as per jesus in the book of mormon yet it's there and i i want to give brother joseph a break as they say that we ought to um you know i do i do want to say that it is understandable that while orally dictating such a like a reasonably sized text it's understandable these sorts of mistakes would be made if you had no divine help or intervention right but if these words as we've discussed in the tight translation episode if these words are being revealed directly to you onto a stone in a hat and then you're reading them out and they are not you don't move on until it has been correctly written down as all the translators or most the translators witness to if that is the case these mistakes shouldn't be present yeah i mean and that's just it and like you know sometimes they'll say well you guys expect too much if you expect this kind of stuff it's like no no this is claimed to be directly from god through a stone and a hat and yet there are all of these continuity errors there are all these late editions from the bible that work all of these things and it's like um you know there are different ways to illustrate this but you know um recently i had a family member pass away and what happened at the end was they had a lot of different medical issues and so we talked to the doctors and they said basically we can fix two of them but the other four we cannot fix because by fixing the two you're going to make them more vulnerable on the other parts and i know it's a grim way to say it but when you talk about the book of mormon there are all of these different things that are coming into play and so from an apologetic standpoint you're like well let's pluck this one out and try to find a way that works but you still have so many things on that are left behind that tell you this is not an ancient text and to nemo's point this is supposed to be directly unfiltered from god um through through the medium of the the peeps shear stone in the hat and yet we have these problems that tell you the person who dictated or wrote the book of mormon is just completely losing track of what they're doing and that would not happen if these were written down on plates in in a chronological order as we were told they were it just it just wouldn't happen and so at that point to make space for that it really becomes indistinguishable from fraud because you're making so much space to try to account for these errors that you're now basically indistinguishable from anyone else who's ever claimed um to receive revelation from god it's just these these problems are too numerous and they're too deep to be able to kind of explain away with kind of superficial um rational uh rationalities it just doesn't work but what apologists will try and convince you of is that issues with the book of mormon exist in a vacuum yep and that's and that's just it and they'll they'll draw your attention to one specific one and try and answer that and as we prove time and time again and we'll keep proving often in solving one issue you actually make another worse yep exactly and that happened and we've tried to illustrate that throughout these overviews because to your point it's like you fix one thing but then all of a sudden another issue all of a sudden becomes worse or insolvable because you've now taken their that apologetic away on another issue and and so that's why they always try to play this game i i i hesitate to use it because i think it was the redlands and their youth devotional where they cut they yeah they said the critics play the whack-a-mole right you go but the reality is the apologists do because they only want to focus on one thing at a time whereas i want to say let's focus on all of it at once because then you're getting a proper context you're getting proper background and you're getting the proper use of apologetics because you cannot arbitrarily apply it that one apologetic to one and then say but i don't want to use that for this because i got to go a different route you can't do that and that's where this whack-a-mole idea comes into play because they're doing different things for each one and ignoring the problems you're creating on the other side and you cannot do that if you want to be intellectually honest about this stuff yeah it's seeing the forest instead of focusing on the bark of the tree exactly all right well the next slide is the 116 pages problem striking again and then yeah just know it yep and so we kind of we kind of covered this a little bit but just to give another shout out to brent metcalf um in his write up about this he says mosiah through third nephi 23 betrays no knowledge of malachi 3 or 4. subsequent to jesus's third nephi recital of malachi's prophecies as the dictation proceeded malachi's language is appropriated by other book of mormon prophets in ether first nephi and second nephi some book of mormon students argue that narrative patterns similar to the above can be explained by acknowledging the intervention of nephite redactors mormon and moroni interpreters could thus hypothesize that post-christ advent nephi editors embellished the replacement text with high christology or projected later prophecies back onto their progenitors such a theory can only be maintained at the expense of the redactor's integrity mormon expressly states that the sole reason for inclusion of uh first nephi to omni was because they contained pleasing prophecies of the coming of christ in this context could the christology christological prophecies be the creation of mormon also why would mormon or moroni have inserted later more developed elements into the narrative in some cases but neglected to do so in the homilies of benjamin mosiah abinadi or in both almas and why would such inconsistencies of ancient redactors be so easily explained by smith's dictation sequence and so that's a lot of that was a lot of words it was the language does someone want to summarize that for many people who are newer to this kind of uh uh you're you're muted nemo oh yeah nemo's muted muted myself uh if you want to keep it on screen there uh so yeah keep it on screen so people can see it essentially what they're saying is oh well maybe those that compiled the book of mormon the people that abridged these things the people that you know put it all onto the plates spent hours engraving those people maybe took some of these words and put them back but those people christian stuff back yeah so mormon wrote jesus into his abridgements yeah he took malachi and put it back into first and second nephi yes yeah so they're saying he did that but then uh mormon was saying well the only reason i included that or one of the reasons certainly was because it contained verses that were pleasing to me and it contained prophecies of the coming of christ so why would he then go back into those words that changed them yeah and pseudopigrapher and just like wrote his own fictitious authors right but the overarching point is why this conflated and weird explanation when the simplest explanation is explained by joseph smith's own timeline for writing the book of mormon when he was writing things and therefore what he would have known in his mind didn't match up with what the people in the book would have known his chronological lifetime and when he was writing the books meant that he had information that the people in the books wouldn't have had so he put it in accidentally that explains it just as well as attributing some weird motive and editorial role to mormon and moroni that there's no scriptural backup for well not just as well it explains it much much better it's occam's razor right yeah yeah i'll just say this is an aside i don't know why i didn't bring this up elsewhere isn't it a really glaring omission that joseph smith puts so much protestant christianity into you know native americans between 600 bc and the birth of christ like i would you know we may have different opinions about joseph smith some say he's brilliant some say he's he's uneducated like i do not get how joseph is having al you know nephites baptizing each other in the name of jesus and protestant sermons like if joseph is gonna take out um if joseph's gonna take out uh um what's the currency the british currency oh far thanks if joseph's gonna take out farthing and replace it with c9 or whatever why is he giving pre-christian nephites who are supposed to be hebrews why is he giving them protestant christianity including baptism and confirmation because he knows his audience yeah and i thought and that's all he knew that was his worldview what do you mean i mean so like i was kind of saying earlier he knows who is going to be reading this book he knows who he wants converted to this and it's the people around him that exist within this protestant america so i it's in my mind again this is just conjecture i can't be in joseph smith's head but i would imagine if he is if he's fabricating a book if he is creating what he believes is a religious text that he wants to be impactful then for the same reason he includes his king james english because it's going to speak to the people at the time it's what they're used to religiously he is going to have the mechanics of their religiosity present within that book because that will then be familiar to them and it will ring true to them and because it will ring true to them from their own lived experience they won't feel a million miles away from then being able to join this yeah right if it was completely alien they might just dismiss it but why why wouldn't he be worried that his contemporaries would say joseph why are why are ostensible jews in in central america 500 years before christ baptizing and confirming people in the name of christ and holding protestant sermons why wasn't joseph worried that people would notice that now the interesting thing is i don't think a lot of them did but i'm just wondering why joseph wasn't worried that that would be a massive red flag it's a good point yeah i mean i i think joseph could only write with what he knew i don't think he knew you know we talked about that in the episode on anachronisms how it's kind of like a reverse anachronism that they don't talk about jewish customs once they get to america and i think it's because joseph didn't know him and so because that was not his the world he lived in he just didn't even think to put him in and then to nemo's point you know writing in the beliefs of the 19th century and then putting your own theology into what people already believed it's like giving people comfort food and serving it with a side of your own theology which is a lot more um you know consumable than if he had just wrote a book that was completely not like what people had expected putting his own theology out there and so yeah i think that's to nemo's point i think it's because he knew his audience he knew what they would would be willing to take and he also i think had at that point a lot of confidence that he was a good enough storyteller to where he could put pull this off i guess i guess the native americans would have been a big enough mystery or a big enough question mark that 19th century you know new englanders or whatever would have been excited to believe that they were all basically christians in effect baptizing each other yeah yeah protestant sermons maybe that was a feature not a bug because from what i understand of the mound builders myth and and those sorts of things the need to explain away these large structures and civilizations as it were was because they couldn't believe that the native americans they'd spent time oppressing and removing were actually capable of such things yeah and so if you could that's why they all in a lot of these stories like few of the hebrews and such they're all jews they're all actually caucasians because then we can believe them capable of this stuff right right that's the kind of thinking so to have them actually be good old christians that makes it more palatable as a history yeah patients are christian you know right yeah yeah in their mind in their mind yeah okay exactly all right so the next slide is corrected mistakes from an orally dictated text yeah and so we've talked before about how we believe the book of mormon was dictated orally and this is just these are the offshoots of that which is you're going to have mistakes that you realize as you say it then you correct it quickly so mosiah 16 6 says and now if christ had not come into the world which is a mistake then he says corrects it by saying speaking of things to come as though they had already come there could be no redemption and so it's like he realized all of a sudden that christ wasn't there yet so then he has to correct it on the fly because he can't tell oliver oh crap i screwed up and then um helam in 12 15 and thus according to his word the earth goeth back and it appeareth unto man that the sons stand the still and then he has to say and correct and say yea and behold this is so for surely it is the earth that moveth and not the sun mosiah 7 8 it says and it came to pass when they had been imprisoned two days they were again brought before the king and their bands were loosed and they stood before the king and were permitted mistake or rather commanded correction that they should be that they should answer the questions which he should ask them alma 43 38 they being shielded from the more vital parts of the body mistake corrected to say or the more vital parts of the body being shielded from the strokes of the lamanite and then alma 2419 and thus we see they buried their weapons of peace mistake or they buried their weapons of war for peace and and those are just again they're just fingerprints that tell us this is an orally dictated text and joseph smith at times is going to say something and then realize oh crap that's not what i meant to say but he can't tell oliver cross it out i i i screwed that up so he just has to correct it on the fly because of the tight translation um right you know expectation which is that the stone was magic and that it was giving him the words verbatim yeah that made joseph have to stick with whatever he said yes but then make corrections but if if the stone really was being as powerful doing the tight translation as joseph set himself up to set us up to have that expectation then there would be no there would be no trace of these signs of on-the-fly verbal corrections yes previously dictated immediately dick previously dictated mistakes right yeah if you want to talk about what moroni and mormons should have been up to what they should have been up to when they were taking the the image that i see in church artwork and things is the idea they were taking parchments and scrolls that have been handed down plus these smaller plates of brass that were brought and they compiled it all into the gold plates and they painstakingly etched out these things one of their jobs as an abridger should have been to take the part where it says buried their weapons of peace or to say their weapons of war for peace to take that and just put bury their weapons of war for peace that's their job that's what they should have been doing if anything if they're making any alterations to the text those the sorts of alterations and a bridger would make they would take out what are clearly errors instead of painstakingly etching those errors into gold yeah and that's just that i mean that is what happens when you have an orally dictated text because you're going to misspeak i mean i've done it in these episodes where i'll say something i'm like oh sorry what i meant to say is that or you know but joseph smith has to as john said because of the tight translation because that's what all the witnesses believed he can't be like oh sorry i screwed that up oliver let me restart because according to the witnesses the rock will not continue with words until he fixes it which is a whole other issue too because then why you know i mean so then the argument to nemo's point would be well then they probably wrote on the plates wrong which just gets into this like spiral of issues because then all of a sudden it's like well then why did they go through the work to correct that that one verse there but then they have all these other errors that were left on the plates i mean you just that's like what nemo said you can't pull one thing out because it just opens all these other problems and you see that in every little thing we're doing where we'll we'll sit here and go well the apologist will say this that's like but then you have this this and this and it just never ends yeah nemo you may like this or not but it's reminding me of uh monty python the holy grail yeah where they're in the castle of arg yes and and they're supposedly reading from from the cave what was dictated and it's it's something about you know here beyond this cave lies the castle of ah they're like what do they mean hard and he's like he must have died while he must have died while carving it if he's dying he's not gonna bother to carve the word arg he's just gonna say it and die yeah that's that's kind of uh what this is reminding me of you're not absolutely it's writing things that you just wouldn't write especially when it comes to carving it in stone or metal i mean because we know that there's what did we say there's 10 university dissertations worth of text missing from each plate if we look at the pg tablets if we do a throwback to that episode so why not make a little bit more room by not including these mistakes yeah yeah exactly all right um anytime i can make a money python a holy grail reference please do i'm gonna make it yeah okay so the next slide is clumsy mistakes from an orally dictated text and this is similar to the last one it just shows sometimes that when you're doing it and you know what we talked about earlier is he might be doing a chunk attacks taking a break whatever the case might be and sometimes when you're doing that you kind of forget what you just said and so alma 1916 introduces a lamanite woman named abish and informs that she ran forth from house to house making it known unto the people that the power of god had come unto the king and queen a mere 12 verses later the narrator forgets her name and clumsily refers instead to the woman servant who had caused a multitude to be gathered together and again you might sit there and go well you know maybe then you know the the writer just forgot but it just shows you that sometimes when you're making up these names on the fly it's really easy to forget them a short period later especially you know when you're doing this you know in more of a slower dictation pattern um and then in alma one they introduce an antichrist and nehor who teaches false doctrine kills a war hero named gideon and finally recants his unbelief before his execution for murder in the very next chapter the offer appears to momentarily forget nihar's name and introduces a new character amlikai i hope i'm saying that america i think is as he being after the order of the man that slew gideon by the sword who is executed according to law later in alma 24 the the author uses a much simpler description after the order of nihor and then um you know there's kind of where you get the reverse of it which is um in alma 1736 um they're narrating how ammon defended um like this group of sheep from thieves right and so joseph smith dictates with mighty power he did sling stones amongst them and thus he slew a certain number of them which is vague and then two verses later he's the changes to six of them have fallen by the sling but he slew none save it were their leader with the sword and so you just get like these weird inconsistencies that come from working with text and not really necessarily always knowing exactly where you are in it and again these are small things but all of these small things add up to bigger problems again this this speaks to the you know the perception that apologists and church leaders want us to have that this is the most elegant sophisticated text ever but they're not accounting for these sorts of clumsy mistakes or correct mistakes they're leaving they're not telling us about those right to be fully honest they would acknowledge these these problems you know yes i think so and then we go on to unique names in the book of mormon yeah so this is a big one i think because this is one you hear all the time and so this is we i mentioned tad callister at the beginning and so this is another quote from tad callister and he says first the critics must explain how joseph smith a 23 year old farm boy with limited education created a book with hundreds of unique names and places as well as detailed stories and events accordingly many critics proposed that he was a creative genius who relied upon numerous books and other local resources to create the historical content of the book of mormon but contrary to their assertion there is not a solitary witness who claims to have seen joseph with any of these alleged resources before the translation began and one i would say there's really no witnesses that talk about what joseph had before the translation began anyways because there's just not a lot there but i just wanted to focus on the hundreds of unique names and places because that's something here all the time like how could someone create all of these names and keep them consistent and keep them um keep track of them if it was not from an ancient record that was on metal plates and um this is the next slide addresses that yeah and so there is a website and it's linked from our overview um and it has a word frequency count for the book of mormon so every single word names places items you know paths whatever any word they give you a word frequency and if you look at this i just pulled a few and i did i honestly did this randomly um as i was going through i started from the most frequent to the to the lowest and what you see if you look at it is that seven nephi has mentioned eight times helium in fifty nine um t income 43 benjamin thirty four getty on ten thirty jerem20 but then as you get lower you'll notice that they drop quite a bit and what's more important than that is if you look at if you're if you're reading this you can look at the middle if you're if you're listening to this um when you look at jerome for example he's only mentioned 20 times but he's only mentioned in jeremiah 1 1 which means in the book of mormon when when most of these names are mentioned they can be mentioned once or a handful of times and then they're forgotten forever and so the idea that it's so complex because of the names really falls short once you realize how many of the names most of the names are going to be mentioned all in the same spot of the book of mormon and then forgotten forever and so um this is where to me looking at the complexity of names requires you to look at both the word frequency and also how many times are used beyond their introduction because for the most part outside of the main characters the names and locations are brought up and then just forgotten immediately and so there's no complexity to just making up names and then forgetting them and and this really shows how many of the names are mentioned once or twice and always in the same spot and then gone forever got it and the fact that if you if you accept the theory that a lot that a significant portion of the book of mormon is kind of joseph smith's own history or narrative right and we know that people kind of theorize that he writes himself in as the nephi character yes the tiny bit suspicious that the character that is most associated with joseph smith's birth order and personality is the one that's mentioned 2700 plus times yeah nephi i mean joseph i mean nephi yeah being noble and strong and better than my brothers no i mean it is true it's just you know it just goes to show that when you when people throw out the number of names you have to remember that most this is not like you know i i hate referencing harry potter and lord of the rings but there there are two series of books that people are familiar with those books will call back to characters they'll call back to locations all the time the book of mormon rarely does it and so when you have 200 names how many of those names are actually called back because it's very few because the book of mormon works on a timeline and once that timeline is passed outside of the main people it's forgotten and that is another area where like the tad callister knows full well how many of those names are actually brought up again but the using the total number just sounds so powerful so just to summarize what you're saying here is when joseph smith uses some of these more complex names he'll use them in the same verse or in the same chapter but but uh most of the time the unique names and and names that he uses are are very much local not global using global names throughout the text especially more advanced or sophisticated ones it's just very rare that he does that is that what you're saying well yeah i'm just saying that when he riffs off names a lot of the times are used in that that verse or that chapter sometimes they're just used once as you can see at the bottom and then they're just forgotten and so it's like is it really complex if i can you know i can riff off a story to you right now and i can give you a hundred names if i don't have to remember to use them later right it's really easy to do yeah and so you look at this right and we talked earlier about say three hours a day 12 000 words an hour so if some of these names are used within the same 3600 words of the book of mormon then essentially all he's had to do is remember him for a day yep exactly that's it he they are his name of the day and then the next day he gets to come up with a different name yeah exactly so that's that's how the locals remember last week's name yeah exactly because they're already forgotten they're already past in in um there are parts of the book of mormon where they'll riff off a bunch of names at once and then they're gone and so yeah okay it makes it seem a lot more complex than it is and you know one thing i want to point out and again i've been clear i don't think joseph smith is blatantly plagiarizing off other texts but we know he's familiar with charles anthony because he sends martin harris to see him and in 1827 charles anthony publishes a dictionary that has ancient names and ideas and these are just some examples but moroni uh is like moroni um gadatanum is like gadiantin mar marion is like morianton zamora zerahemla nephrites nephites egyptus egyptus in the book of abraham uh corinthium coriantimer tiankum tiankum memnum mormon uh cremera kimura and and what i'm trying to point out here isn't to say that joseph smith is like looking through his dictionary as he's doing the book bookmore but to say we know he's familiar charles anthony and there are i think 32 names that are very similar in the book of mormon that also are have similar concepts in charles anthony's dictionary it's just to say that isn't it it's another one those areas where from the flip side if you were an apologist and there was something like a hit that was close you'd point it out so i'm just pointing out that there are a lot of surrounding ideas of names that joseph smith seems to have access to or familiar with the authors of that make their way into the book of mormon and it's worth pointing out when you're talking about how much of a sponge he is at pulling outside information and then repurposing it for his needs i i was looking at a and that suspect as well uh the the fact that he's borrowing at least some names from charles anthony's published book potentially how many of the names used in the book of mormon come straight out of the bible a lot mm-hmm i'm gonna have a slide on that right i don't for the bible no like that i think that's also that deserves its own slide at some point yeah because i i think a very large percentage of book of mormon names are literally biblical names yeah and that and that's another it's like sometimes we look at these you know maybe maybe that's a story we can do or an episode we could do down the road like of trying to fill in some of the questions people have that we didn't cover or something but that is an area where not just the the names but there are a lot of stories in the book of mormon that that have a lot of parallels to the bible or even some to the apocrypha and and um all of a sudden it's like the story of judith is like the story of um of uh getting the the brass plates and all that with you know cutting off in the head and all that and so yeah the laban so leaving getting the brass plates is like judith and the apocrypha i believe and um and so you see a lot of these things that that shouldn't be there that are and um it really once you start seeing them it makes the book of mormon less complex because you're starting to see how all the pieces are fitting together to make it what it is and all of a sudden once you realize a lot of them are being lifted from surrounding sources it's not that hard to understand how it's a 19th century composition and once you get to that point the complexity fades because the complexity is usually one that we give it by setting up the equation to say this couldn't be done outside of the power of god and that to your point earlier is why it's so important to look at all these together and to understand all the moving pieces inside of it and how well they fit the patterns of joseph smith being able to um weave surrounding ideas into his own theology yeah and i i thought uh the these um these book of mormon names regarding you know lumen and layman was also significant so the next slide is more connections to book of mormon names yeah and this one's just kind of a fun one because um lumen walters is a name that you hear a lot when you look into joseph smith's treasure digging days and what i didn't know until i think it was like a year two ago someone had sent me this this link and lumen walters actually went by the name layman walters and he had an uncle named lemuel walters who founded the town burke vermont and lemuel had a son named samuel and again these are connections it's not to say that joseph smith knew layman he knew lehman walters it's not to say he was like oh i'm gonna name a character after him it just shows that these names are in his world view so it's not like these names are ancient names he never heard of these are names that were all around him his immediate world view immediate world view this is not like some this is not some like you know cousin of a cousin of a cousin's friend this is someone he worked with in treasure digging who went by the name of his mentors yes potentially one of his treasure digging mentors yes went by the name layman had an uncle named lemuel yeah like what's the chances that that happened and that it just so happened that that two of lehi's sons from thousands of years prior shared the same name as two dudes that were in his immediate treasure-digging surroundings it was the same thing um i didn't do a slide on this but the whole idea one of the things they say about alma is that there's no way joseph smith could have known alma was a male name i'm sure you guys have heard that and um bill real and radio free mormon did an episode on that i think on mormonism live a long time ago there are so many sources that can tell you that joseph smith had people all around him that were named alma that were male and so those are the things that just completely take away the complexity and once you realize that the the supposed hits that apologists will continue to throw out are very explainable then all of a sudden everything else becomes explainable and that's why they work so hard to keep that equation in balance which is to say no one could have done this but an ancient divine source this next slide actually does a little bit of dress names from the bible yeah i guess it's a little bit yeah so you know we talked about uh anthon's dictionary earlier and there's also sections on egyptian culture and egyptian theology and so joseph smith in that regard would have known that nephi was of egyptian origin but it also shows uh you know nephi is a name that comes directly out of the apocrypha which was not only known in joseph's time but i believe was part of his 1769 king james bible so in second maccabees it says and anemias called this thing naftar naphthar which is as much to say a cleansing but many men call it nephi and then in second nephi have and my people would that we shall call the name of the place knee five wherefore we did call it nephi so those aren't quite exactly the same but it's just to say that you know we have in both the book of mormon and the apocrypha saying that you know we call it nephi and and that's where the you know that name was known to joseph because he knew the apocrypha and the apocrypha at that time was much more widespread than it is now and so there i mean that's that's the main character in the book of mormon and it's readily available i just grabbed my little apocrypha here okay there you go nice yeah and so that i mean that once you start to see it it's hard to unsee it and some people don't like this reference i even think dan vogel doesn't really like it but there are a lot who who find it really interesting that i guess in one of captain kid you know the captain kid who you know was a was a pirate joseph smith liked pirate stories we know he had a fascination with captain kidd and in one of the maps i guess in one of the captain kid books it mentions an island komoros which is kimura and then there's a city named moroni on that same map of the comoros islands and again some people don't like that reference but i think for for many it just seems really suspicious that a a pirate book and story that joseph smith had access to and would have probably read has the name moroni and something a lot like kimura right there in the book it's not a false binary though like it's not an either or option it's a compounding thing if joseph's got the charles anthon little dictionary and he's got captain kidd available there's two ways in which he could have come up with those names so all it does is it makes that claim that he couldn't have come up with them less uh it stands up less because exactly it doesn't matter which of them are used he's now got two options not just one yeah and and i would argue just as a quick aside on that i don't like the captain kid stuff just because it's harder to draw like a chain of custody to joseph smith that being said if you're going to cite nahom as an apologetic knowing how completely out of place nahom is to the book of mormon's description then you then cannot say well how dare you use the captain kid reference so if to me i will say i will forgo the captain kid because i don't think it's a solid enough one but you can't use nahom because the nahom one is completely explainable and not at all what the apologists claim so it's one of those areas where it's like if you where do you want to set the rules on how we choose what evidence or documentation whatever is solid enough versus uh trying to make it fit and i think that's an area where for me i would not use captain kid stuff but i also would use that apply that same critical evaluation and say that's why the nahom apologetics don't work because it falls under the same problems where once you dig in you're like this is not at all what what they're claiming it is so i think it's just you know you can't have it both ways you can't be mad that people make these these um these these uh parallels to captain kidd and then also say but oh by the way did you see joseph smith nailed it on nahom because those are two similar cherry picked data so that's kind of where i'm at all right so the next slide is 19th century methodist sermons appearing in pre-christian you know latin america and you know so grand palmer spent a lot of time looking at the similarities between the methodist revival uh teachings and sermons and the ones that appear in the book of mormon and other people have two i know i think dan vogel's done some work on it and it's just to say there are a ton of similarities between the sermons that were being given joseph smith time and place and the ones that end up in the book of mormon which were supposedly written you know uh hundreds and thousands of years earlier and so um this image is one i kind of hate using infographics because i know sometimes they're a little bit too um they maybe draw too many conclusions but you know basically in the 1820s we have methodist preachers um who are going and giving these massive um revivalist meetings where you've got thousands of people and so they have to you know in this particular one this is um benjamin paddock i believe and he was talking with um there was a farewell address from another uh reverend um and basically they have this like speaking upon this big stage or tower um they have tents all around cause people are staying there and staying all day in the book of mormon you have king benjamin which matches the name reverend benjamin um speaking about a tower with tents all around um in the 1826 one it was the guy's farewell speech was in a feeble condition book of mormon mentions feeble condition they both talk about a powerful farewell discourse expressing love for the people and the one i think is actually kind of an interesting one is that they both mention how people fall to the ground to commit to christ that is something that is very unique um or at least very uh important to the methodist revivals because obviously expressing love for people is very generic feeble condition you could pull but the fainting to the ground of falling to the ground and then committing that is something that joseph smith saw all around him in the 1820s that just happens to make its way into the book of mormon and all of these little things people might go well they're kind of generic parallels or they're weak parallels but again they add up and they also add up and they're important because of the fact that they were happening in the years leading up to the book of mormon like these are directly happening as joseph smith is preparing to write this so to have them appear in a text that's supposed to be written you know so many hundreds of years earlier it raises it has some red flags that you have to address if you want to claim this as an ancient authentic text when it has so many elements of methodist revivals that would not have happened obviously until joseph smith's lifetime yeah it's one thing to claim that native american jews that we know didn't exist by all the dna and all the other other evidences linguistic or anthropological archaeological it's one thing to claim that these non-existent native american white jews you know uh were basically in effect christians before jesus was even born but then to have them literally um listening to methodist sermons super similar to the methodist sermons that we know joseph smith would have been exposed to in 1826 that just stretches this beyond any possible credulity can i throw something out there yeah sure i didn't view the people in the old testament as jews i viewed them as christians in my time as a mormon yeah i mean i think that's what we do certainly growing up like we we we appropriate them essentially we view them as pre-christ christians christians who are looking forward to christ and then the christians that came after christ are christians that just came after christ that's all the the children of israel were they were christians looking forward to christ yeah that's kind of how i certainly viewed them yeah no i mean i think it's a good point i think that's to to that's a really good way to explain sometimes why joseph smith when writing the book of mormon we talked about earlier why he would portray them that way because it is how the european settlers in america were kind of viewing the bible because you're right because it was about spreading christianity and so in that regard you're you're putting you're imposing that new testament um christology almost on to the old testament because you need the old testament to be basically foreshadowing jesus and and so it all does in that regard fit together really well and create a world view that you're going to not only see yourself in the old testament as a christian but also give you the um the way that you're going to portray it to others that you're trying to convert as well so that's actually a really good point that gives justification to keeping the ten commandments from the old testament yeah because if you play this line that christ fulfilled the law and therefore the old testament is done away with well then why do we keep the ten commandments yep yeah it works you view it as well they were all just christians yeah it's true and it's kind of this relatively modern restorationist impulse that needs to have adam baptizing and confirming people and everyone practicing polygamy including jesus like it's this it's this relatively modern restoration of simples that is trying to write christianity into all dispensations you know that's a very modern thing right it is definitely it's another fingerprint uh i think yeah uh you know grant palmer is a legend i'll put a link to an insider's view of mormon origins in the show notes and also to my original interview with grant palmer on mormon stories he's passed away he's a he's a game changer and i really really recommend uh people checking out his stuff yeah definitely just slide in and of itself to me is a is a huge smoking gun um but but but you'll need to check out grant palmer to really understand it more yeah and so now we go on to the the slide about joseph smith the book of mormon and the laying down of heads which is also um explained more in our mormon stories interview with william davis which we'll include a link to as well but tell us what this is about yeah and so dr william davis he did a book i think at 2020 called visions in a seer stone and he discusses how joseph smith likely used the methodist preaching techniques of laying down heads uh while creating long sermons from a small selection of notes and so um effectively what what william davis was saying is that in this time it's almost like you go up with one page of notes and you know like the bullet points of what you want to talk about and then as you preach you could preach for hours just expanding off of these notes that you had and so um what this would mean for the book of mormon is that joseph smith who would be familiar with this entire way of speaking uh could basically you know walk down the path skip some rocks think of five or six things he wanted to make sure he covered and then as he sits down to do the dictation he can weave those five or six bullet points through the story through the characters he's talking about that time and you can produce a lot of material from just those five or six bullet points that you thought up in your head and so that would allow joseph to do chunks of the book of mormon without actually having a manuscript or even having notes i know some people think he might have had notes in his hat he might have we don't know but either way this would allow him to create a lot of material with a small amount of um kind of outline in his head and again as we talked about earlier if he takes breaks this gives him a chance to kind of get those done then when he finishes where he was at he could say okay let's take a break to do whatever then he comes up with the next part and so laying down heads um i know this is a area that a lot of apologists are really attacking william davis over it's a technique that was used all around joseph smith so of course he would be familiar with it and so it's a really cool way of looking at how he could have produced the book of mormon by orally dictating it off of short ideas in his head that he expands on and not only does william davis provide us with a technique that uh that was known that was used at the time of joseph smith and that would have been known to joseph smith as an as a methodist exhorter but he shows us where these heads appear in the book of mormon he shows us examples of chapters where they basically tell us what they're going to tell us which is the laying which is the heads yeah then he tells us which is the laying down of heads it's a brilliant book everyone needs to buy uh visions in the seer stone and or watch the mormon stories episode with william davis because it feels that an important part of the puzzle of how he just could have dictated for a few hours a day it shows us and it doesn't have to be even the way he did it it just provides us with one plausible example of how he very well could have yes i think that's a fair way to say it for sure and um and so the next slide kind of piggybacks off of that first one about visions in a seer stone because as as we just said we don't know exactly which revival events joseph smith attended but we do know that you know he talked about favoring the methodists he studied with them and that's all leading up to the book of mormon which tells us that he would have been exposed to their styles of preaching the revival meetings and to what you just said you know one of the areas where the book of mormon explicitly talks about basically laying down heads is in jacob 1 4 nephi gives jacob explicit instructions on preaching that other than references to plates could have easily been inserted inserted into the pages of a 19th century sermon composition manual it says if there were preaching which was sacred or revelation which was great or prophesying that i jacob should engraven the heads of them upon these plates and touch upon them as much as it were possible that's exactly how they did it they would have the heads of these these sermons and then touch about the heads of the sermons as much as it were possible and so this is basically saying in the book of mormon itself that they're they're basically making sure in the book of mormon they get the bullet points of the of the the sermons and that they'll expand upon them as much as they can within within the plates and within the text of the book of mormon so they're telling you that they're working with this um speaking technique that was very very common in joseph smith's time and place wow yeah and that's just reminding me just like joseph smith mentions the slippery treasures in the book of mormon that that that codifies um you know the the slippery treasure treasure digging that he in fact was involved with yeah he's writing into the actual text of the book of mormon this methodist technique of using heads to preach exactly you know how they call it the unabomber right idiolect they looked at his manifesto and they looked at the words he used and then went well that's this guy and it's this like joseph smith's idiolex joseph smith's own personal set of words is appearing all throughout the book of mormon yeah that's just that that's in there there are little clues everywhere and when you read it as a believer you would never think about it i would have never thought about it either and if if william davis had written that book i would have never thought of that when i listened to his interview with you and i got his book on the kindle um it's just it's amazing how looking at it through the lens of somebody who studied that kind of technique of preaching in in the sermons he's picking up on all these things i never would but once you see it then you start seeing it for yourself and it's like oh my goodness this makes so much more sense than the questions i had before about how it was done and that's why i think as we said at the beginning you can't say exactly 100 how he did it but you can say this are the techniques we can see in the book of mormon and once you see those then you can get a roadmap of how it could be done and you can know joseph smith was capable of it and i think that's really the most important question because once you know he's capable of it and you know where he's pulling from occam's razor tells you this is not an ancient text and that's really as far as you can get um because we weren't there i mean but but we have so there's so many examples are overwhelming and i think that's why as nemo mentioned earlier you have to look at them in totality you can't take one at a time you got to take them all together and then all of a sudden the puzzle fits and it's like super satisfying that it fits even if it's really crushing that it doesn't fit in the way you were kind of raised to believe yeah so so mike the next slide is how could joseph smith write the book of mormon and i'm going to call a bit of an audible because i want to say something before you actually start clearing these slides is that that's fine yeah of course that's fine okay so what you're going to list here are some of the main theories that we've already laid out about how joseph smith wrote the book of mormon i'm going to begin with kind of the well that gets poisoned beforehand okay and these are this is this is repeating what we've already stated so number one you know how could joseph smith have written the book of mormon that's such an amazing book you have to begin with the fact that all of us number one have been have been conditioned from birth to believe that it's an amazing sophisticated book and it was john hamer who first sort of like said something that felt blasphemous at the time but that as i've sat with it really rings true which is that it starts as a not impressive book the book of mormon mark twain called it chloroform in print if you read the dictated manuscript it reads like a lot of folksy gibberish that's been corrected much later and and if you just think about your experiences reading the book it's actually not a great book unless you've been taught from age zero that it's an amazing book and you've had all these emotional experiences with your parents with your grandparents with your church leaders in your ward situations all of that colors and and kind of i don't want to say poisons the well but it sets you up to start by believing that it's this amazing inspiring book but then when you realize that a kid growing up reading the quran is going to believe the quran's an amazing book and cry when he talks about it when tevye talks about reading the holy book he cries and says it's an amazing book anyone who grows up with a scriptural text from childhood being told that it's an amazing miraculous book and having spiritual familial and social experiences with it they're going to be primed to believe that it's an amazing book so you have to start by like by lowering the bar knowing that we've all been biased in that regard you have to start there then you have to throw away this idea that it was written in 90 days we've already covered this you have to think this book was written in six to ten years not in 90 days and i had i had to just start with recapping that mike no it's fine and that's and that's good because you know these next couple slides will go quick because it's more or less just kind of recapping some of the stuff because when you look at what we do know about the composition of the book of mormon we can say it was an orally dictated text i don't think anyone would argue with that the king james bible is a foundational source text we've covered that throughout so many of these overviews it is absolutely undeniable um the book of mormon contains 19th century material throughout the text we've covered that again we've even have quotes from richard bushman terrell gibbons they all will concede that um it includes elements of joseph smith's life events whether we're talking about treasure digging his father's dream being in the book of mormon um the 19th century ideas are literally the backbone of the story which is the mound builder myth um we've got the anti-masonic feelings and the book of mormon treats the bible like a history book which they did in the 19th century and so when you have all of those elements all of a sudden you can see the ingredients that would be used to bake the cake which would be the book of mormon and so we've covered those ad nauseam at this point but those are the elements you have to look at if you want to see how could someone write it well when you have all of those ingredients and a lot of them are specific to joseph smith it's really not that hard to explain how he could have done it yeah and that's something that an email no i couldn't possibly okay no and then you know again we've said this before we can't know exactly how it's produced we no one was in the room that was writing it down all we know is that from the witness accounts it was an orally composed text with a tight translation um but we do know as nemo mentioned earlier he's pulling large chunks of text from the king james bible including errors mistranslations even late editions to the bible that none of those should be in there um we talked about the complexity of the names and locations and the currencies how they fall apart when you realize the book of mormon is continually moving through the history in leaving the past almost entirely behind even the currencies are mentioned in alma and then not really again outside of the one mention in the sermon on the mount when they change change farthing to c9 so the currency is mentioned literally in one book and never again so to say it's complex really neglects the fact that it's not used at all within it um and then when we talk about the production timeline when we realize joseph smith only needs a little under three hours a day to actually dictate the text on average you realize how much time he has to take breaks to prepare for the next day to prepare for the next chunk of text and again that takes away a lot of the miraculous elements when you realize he actually has way more time during the day than the church wants you to think and all of those elements start to pile up to say this is actually entirely explainable yeah and then when you add to it the fact that dna evidence shows that it's not valid archaeological anthropological geological all the stuff with with with the tower babel and adam and eve in the global flood um all the errors yeah eating due to isaiah and the anachronisms like how much evidence does one need yeah that's just that i mean it's not only could he have written it but because of all those errors we could show he did write it because a lot of the errors are due to the fact that they're coming from a 19th century state of mind and so your errors only attributable to joseph smith yeah some of them are in the surroundings that's just sitting so a lot of these errors are coming from joseph smith's time and place and then when you factor in he's got his own life story kind of weaving throughout it throughout the text it's just no one else but joseph smith could have written it and that he has a history of fraud before the book of mormon right and that he the book of abraham doesn't translate from the papyrus and the kinderhook plates were shown to be a fraud and the joseph translation was shown to be uh a plagiarism of the adam clarke commentary and the fact that he married 14 year olds and other men's wives and married over 30 women and lied to his wife about it like you if you put all of that in context it's overwhelming yeah i mean it's just it's about looking at the patterns and and again i know people get really upset there's a line in the cs that i hear apologists cite all the time and it is a very antagonistic one it says something like if someone sold you two clunkers would you buy a third something like that and i obviously don't want to use that phrasing because i know that is offensive to people but the point is how many times do you need to give special pleading before you go you know what this is this is not what i thought it was because you know and we'll get to it in a second but it's all about the equation you start with and once you get to an equation where you're willing to start from scratch everything is going to point to this being a 19th century text and that no one else but joseph could have written it and then all of a sudden the mechanics of how he did it won't matter because you can show where he's pulling from the ideas he's pulling from the material he's pulling from and once you do that like how he did it like as far as if he used notes or not it doesn't really matter because we know what he produced and once you get to that point all of these things here from tag collister and russell nelson and jeffrey holland they don't really matter because we can show what the evidence tells us as opposed to what we want it to tell us i mean i think i have an answer to what was possibly a rhetorical question there from you mike which is how many times do we have to give him a break how much special pleading do we have to do i think it's it has to become equal to and then greater than the amount of confirmation bias and personal loss and vested interest and all those sorts of things we have in this being true because the lds religious experience creates a necessity for these things to be true because your worldview and your social life and everything else are all built around it so it's understandable that people will go to great lengths to ensure that this rings true to their mind still even against huge odds and it's only once it becomes so insurmountable the evidence becomes so much that then it outweighs those things it outweighs that and it it comes from an emotional place a lot i would imagine that you know you're not going to reason someone out of this it's a case of okay all these things come up and they start to believe they're true and emotionally they're not okay with them like some of the things that joseph did that were morally dubious yeah put it mildly i think that's the answer to that personally no i think you're right and it is i think the special pleading ends when something makes that snap inside you and everyone has a different trigger and um and i think that's one of those things where again we're talking about you know the equation changes once you get to a point where you're willing to accept outside information and that's not to to to to say anything bad about believers because most believers aren't aware of this stuff and a lot of believers are conditioned to distrust this stuff so i'm not my whole point of being here is if you're ready for it i'm here for you if you're not ready for it i will be when you are and um and to your point nemo until they're ready there's nothing i can say that's going to convince them so why am i going to i'm not going to waste my time upsetting somebody who doesn't want to be upset who i have nothing to do with but when they're ready then you know i'm here to to try to give them information and talk to them and be as helpful as i can in a way that hopefully uh is somewhat as gentle as possible given how hard it is to find this information out that was my mission statement when i started i was like i want to be as as non-emotional as possible and what is a very emotional space exactly i think that's all you can do because you know i can get up here and scream and yell and be super angry all the time and let's be honest when you first find out you are angry but now i can talk through this without being angry and i can talk to people without getting upset and when other people are upset i can talk to them in a way that hopefully will be at least a little calming for them because it is i remember how i felt and if i was talking to myself from a few years ago try i'm trying to think of how i would calm myself down because it is it's hard to get it's like information overload and you're just struggling to to breathe um because of all the implications of family and in your community and in your your core beliefs and so to your point yeah until that snaps in someone you can't reason them out of it but when it does happen you want to be able to be there to be able to say hey i can try to hold your hand through it a little bit and i can hopefully be gentle enough that maybe it calms a little of your anger so we can get to the bottom of this and get you in a place where you can then be able to have better relationships with your believing family because that's also tricky and that goes both ways too so you know there's a lot of things that happen when you find this stuff out and i hope that these episodes and obviously you have a very good demeanor about doing it can help people who are ready to kind of get past that initial anger stage and try to make more sense of it and then also uh use that to help other people around them so i don't want to listen to alexander campbell quote in our summation because i worry that people think we're ending but this alexander campbell quote for me is almost a silver bullet can you play can you explain who alexander campbell is and why this quote uh is is so meaningful given the historical context of who he was and and you know when it was that he that he made this quote yeah so alexander campbell was uh like a pretty big religious leader in in he was around when the book of mormon was coming up and so obviously um the campbell lights is where sydney reagan comes from and so it's a movement and it's got a lot of people and so he's obviously very attuned to what joseph smith is doing and so this is what he said when he was asked about the book of mormon he said this prophet smith through his stone spectacles wrote on the plates of nephi in this book of mormon every error in almost every truth discussed in new york for the last 10 years he decided all the great controversies infant baptism ordination the trinity regeneration repentance justification the fall of man the atonement transubstantiation fasting penance church government religious experience the call to the ministry the general resurrection eternal punishment who may baptize and even the question of freemasonry republican government and the rights of man all these topics are repeatedly alluded to and so what he's saying is the book of mormon is literally a time capsule of the 1820s and joseph smith is literally hitting every single thing that is being discussed around him and answering it in a way that dates it so specifically to the 19th century because of course in the ancient americas they would not be as concerned with all of the topics that they are in joseph smith's day and yet the book of mormon repeatedly answers the questions that people are asking in 1829 as opposed to you know 500 bc so alexander campbell and this is a contemporary account to the book of mormon sees all of these games for those who don't know what that big word means this isn't some anti-mormon in 1995 reflecting on whether or not the book of mormon is feels more 19th century than than ancient this is someone that oliver cowdery knew this is a contemporary of joseph smith saying when i read the book of mormon it sounds like somebody living in my time period wrote it with the explicit intent of trying to resolve all the problems during that decade basically right yeah i i i think it's it's one of those quotes i love just because sometimes people will say oh the the anti-mormon critics have come up with all this recently and it's like no no people realized that at the time it's just that obviously there weren't you know there wasn't google so people couldn't look it up and put it together but alexander campbell they were all demonized and dismissed as anti-mormon exactly raised these objections back then exactly and these were all you know brought up at the time but just dismissed and and now that we have all the biblical scholarship we have all the archaeology and dna we can show that the things that alexander campbell's mentioning and other people are mentioning prove true that this is not a historical text and they saw it at the time they just didn't have all of the info we have to back it up with evidence and again why didn't the book of mormon fix the problem of racism why didn't it fix the problem of slavery why did it fix the problem of misogyny of women's rights of lgbt issues like if it's really going to be this document for our day yeah like transformational and not to mention it it neglects all of nauvoo theology which we've already covered why is it only resolving the things joseph smith was thinking about in the 1820s and nothing that society has been concerned about yeah that's just it and after 1830 it just it really is it's a time capsule it takes that phrase the book of mormon's written for our day to a whole new level it does specifically for that point in time yeah it wasn't even written for the 1804 that's just it exactly yeah exactly it was not written for people in the 1840s it was written for people in 1829 and and that's why as you said everything in the church that's unique is developed long after or after the book of mormon and the book of mormon makes no reference back to it that's so powerful it's so true it is it's a great point nemo all right final slide yeah and so you know basically i mentioned this earlier but the the point of this episode is not to bash the book of mormon it's just to say that it's very explainable as long as you do not start with the conclusion as long as you start with a clean equation and you let the evidence be the variables that guide you to the answer every single way you do this is going to point to being a 19th century text and we can go all the way back to his own mother talking about how great of a storyteller he was over five years before dictating the book of mormon to know that he's working with these stories all the way back in 1823 and so when we look at that combined with the fact that the complexities that we we're we're talking about that are cited become very explainable once you realize that they're very quickly used and discarded in the book of mormon all of those things start to tell you that this is a book that could be written by a by a man who is a good storyteller especially because you don't have to be as educated to orally dictate a story and you know we mentioned the tight versus loose so many times in these episodes but that's another area where when you come with apologetics saying well he used hebraisms then you have a lot of other problems you have to answer and we've also shown that hebraisms are used by other books in his time and it's just to say when you take all of this together at face value the pieces start to fit together naturally for the puzzle and you no longer have to again do what the church did what we talked about the beginning with those quotes which is to say that you put the puzzle together and it has to match the picture the church shows you on the box if you don't do that they're going to fit together really well and it's like i said it's a very satisfying feeling to see them fit together because you found the evidence that makes it work even if it is painful to have to deal with what that implies about our core beliefs within the church but i really do think these first 10 episodes i hope have done a good job of explaining why you can show that joseph smith absolutely could have written the book of mormon and that no one else but him could have done it and and just my summary i know you got to go mike my summary is that yes we've got dozens of of episodes still to come in this series yeah but we really could stop right now yeah you could by the mormon church's own claim by gordon b higley's own assertion the book of mormon is the keystone of our religion it's either exactly what it claims what the church claims or what joseph smith claims or in i think kinkley's own words it's the biggest fraud perpetrated on mankind yeah and we've just shown just in 10 episodes how it fails almost every rational modern test and that's not even talking about book of abraham kinderhook plates yeah this is smith version of the bible polygamy masonry and all the other things priesthood restoration first vision a gazillion other things that you still haven't even covered yeah yeah well mike you're amazing uh we've got much more to come nemo thanks for joining us brother thank you nemo any final words no final words from me just uh hopefully we can put it in the show notes i did a video on you know rebutting the church's attempts to prove how the book of mormon couldn't possibly be untrue and it's not that simple at all so go check that out it's like a 10 minute video um other than that yeah you know where to find me folks and then coming forward we've got uh old testament stuff we're gonna be talking about global flood tower of babel very exciting and then some new testament stuff as well um so a lot of cool things to come on this series with with mike in lds discussions again check out ldsdiscussions.com for all of mike's amazing work mike you're uh you're a legend you're a living legend i don't know about that but thank you guys both for being here and thanks nemo from across the pond for being here thanks michael take care thank you take care guys bye everybody thanks to everyone for joining us today on mormon stories podcast uh we really hope you've been enjoying this series again we're going to be providing this uh as its own podcast you can also go to our youtube channel on mormon stories and there's a playlist that you can just watch these videos in sequence um we really appreciate your feedback um please keep it coming at mormon stories gmail.com or you can comment here on youtube or on the facebook video stream or you can leave us comments on the blog at mormonstories.org we always read and appreciate and do our best to incorporate your feedback uh check out the show notes for links check out the time codes if you want to jump back and forward to different parts of this episode and most importantly uh as it is every year less than one of a thousand of our listeners actually donate we lose donors every month usually almost always these days it's because people either fall on financial hard times or they move on it's never 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