An Introduction to Mormon Polygamy
Original Air Date: 2022-10-13
This video serves as an introduction and timeline for a multi-part series by LDS Discussions on the Mormon Stories Podcast, focusing on the history, contradictions, and theological implications of Joseph Smith's practice of polygamy 1. The hosts, John Dehlin and Mike, aim to present evidence-based historical data that goes "below the surface" of standard apologetic arguments, warning that this history is often "disturbing" and "upsetting" for believing members because it challenges the sanitized narrative presented by the Church 2, 3.
The Theological Context and ContradictionsThe video establishes that understanding polygamy is fundamental to understanding Mormonism, influencing everything from temple ceremonies to how the Church handles abuse 4. A central tension highlighted is that The Book of Mormon explicitly condemns polygamy, specifically in Jacob 2, labeling the actions of David and Solomon as "abominable" 5. This creates a scriptural contradiction, as Joseph Smith’s later revelation (D&C 132) claims God justified David and Solomon, meaning Joseph’s revelations eventually contradicted God's prior words 6, 7. Furthermore, the hosts note that the justification of "special divine permission" for sexual access to followers is a pattern seen in many high-demand religious groups and cult leaders, such as David Koresh and Warren Jeffs 8.
The Timeline of PolygamyThe hosts scrutinize the Church’s timeline, arguing that official narratives attempt to "retrofit" history to justify Joseph Smith's actions.
Polyandry and Sealing TheologyA significant portion of the video addresses polyandry, the practice of Joseph Smith marrying women who were already married to living men.
Joseph Smith’s Methods and D&C 132The video details how Joseph Smith established secrecy and authority to maintain the practice.
Implications for TodayThe episode concludes by emphasizing that D&C 132 remains canonized doctrine, meaning polygamy is still the expected order of heaven 29. The hosts argue that believing members must grapple with the reality that their theology promises a future of polygamy in the eternities, where women are "given" to men 30, 31.
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hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Mormon stories podcast I am your host John DeLand it's September 7th 2022 and we are uh continuing our epic series from uh Mike of LDS discussions focusing in as balanced of a way as we can on Mormon truth claims uh the topic for today is an introduction and timeline uh of or to Mormon polygamy and what this is going to be kicking off is a multi-part series on Joseph Smith's practice of polygamy and today is kind of an overview uh I just want to take 20 seconds to remind you all that this series uh from LDS discussions number one the website is ldsdiscussions.com where you can read so many essays and so much good content focusing on um thoughtful balanced evidence-based responses to Mormon truth claims to help you and all of us understand the the basis for um for understanding Mormonism in its history better we are something like 23 24 episodes in these episodes build on each other and so we encourage you to start at the beginning if you're finding this for the first time watch the other 22 23 episodes and then come back to this one you'll have a much better Foundation to understand it you can you can find this even though this podcast is released as part of the Mormon stories podcast series you um on on the Mormon stories podcast YouTube channel and in um in the podcast stream you can also we've also shared these LDS discussions episodes in isolation um on Spotify both in video and audio format also on a YouTube playlist um for LDS discussions under the Mormon stories podcast YouTube channel and also you can find the LDS discussions podcast in isolation wherever you get your podcasts so we want to encourage you to do that and um without any further Ado let's bring on Mike hey Mike hey everybody how's it going you ready to talk polygamy yeah you know what this one's gonna be um kind of like we talked about with the race and the priesthood kind of episodes these are tough and I know um these are ones that still for what you know for different reasons get me um you know still kind of bother me in ways that maybe the other historical stuff doesn't so we're gonna do our best to um present the data as we have it and obviously as we've said with the other episodes people are going to do with it what they want and um we'll reference a lot of good resources as we go and hopefully it gives everybody at least a good overview of the different areas of polygamy um not just how it started but also as we get to the end of these kind of group of episodes how it impacts the church today and what the implications are because of the fact that it's still Doctrine and um you know I'll just we'll go through it as gently as we can without trying to sugarcoat it and hopefully if you're listening and you're a believing member um it's gonna be difficult because there are a lot of things that are going to come up that you probably haven't heard um at the same time um it's gonna be okay because it there's a lot of stuff I think that will go over that kind of explains um how you can know about these things and and kind of how to incorporate them into what we've been talking about the previous episodes and um you know it gets better it's just these episodes get get a little rough and uh we'll do our best yeah um I'll I'll say Once Upon a Time Lindsey Anson Park and I were um on on a trip to Europe and she made this point that she can't understand Mormonism without understanding polygamy and it's it's her view that you know everything from the temple ceremony to garments to uh you know even the way that the church sometimes handles reports of sexual abuse today that there are tie-ins in almost every aspect of Mormonism somehow back to polygamy and so I'll just agree with you that it's so fundamental um before we jump in Mike I just uh wanted to say a couple of quick things number one is I have a dear friend or a good friend named Brian who's actually been heavily involved in Mormon history over the years and something he told me he corrected me on a thing and uh afterwards I said Brian man you should be doing this podcast not me and what he said was he really liked our dynamic because when academics are just talking sometimes it's harder for people to understand and but when there's kind of like this teacher learner model where kind of Mike's the teacher and John's the learner sometimes for some people it makes it more engaging I know that there are some of our viewers and listeners that just want to hear Mike and they just want to hear the facts but there's a large number of viewers and listeners that have also said that they appreciate our exchanges and they appreciate Myra statements so there's there's literally no way to create a podcast that makes everybody happy so I'm just going to acknowledge we're not going to make everybody happy but the position I'm going to try and take is just as the learner and I kind of like this idea of like a convert to Mormonism teaches a sixth generation uh lifelong Mormon about his own religion there's something a little bit clever and profound about the fact that you know more about Mormonism than me Mike and you were a convert an adult convert at that no the funny thing is like you know I don't even think about it that way because I think for me the a lot of the resources I'm pulling from could run circles around me all day long and so for me this is this whole project was about trying to get below the surface of kind of those common arguments you hear um from both like from a critical standpoint um and then also from an apologetic standpoint because a lot of the a lot of the focus on on what you see in the battle especially online but even when the church holds face-to-face events is those topics you see in the CES letter those are the ones that everyone's starting to know about whether it's polygamy First Vision um priesthood restoration race to the priesthood and so this was about trying to get below that surface so for me I am relying heavily on those historians that can run circles well I mean I've referenced them throughout and in these next five episodes like Lindsey Hansen Park's work has been massive and I I obviously would recommend anyone who's listening to this um to check out her year of polygamy series because that goes through every single um one of the wives of Joseph Smith and it does it she does it in a way that I would argue is as gentle and comforting as you can get she does not make fun of it she doesn't um she doesn't use a lot of like loaded language she's very calm and I think she presents it in as straightforward way as you can and I'm not going to speak for her in any way but I think one of the cool things for me listening to her series was I think you could kind of tell us her series went on that it became more and more difficult for her to um kind of like allow for polygamy maybe to not be from God but also for Joseph Smith be a prophet I can't speak to where she is with her spiritual journey any you know at all but I do feel like it's really cool because you could tell us she's doing the series at least from my perspective um that the more she got into it I think the more it weighed on her and I think that's how it was for me too where it's with the church they always want to give you apologetics to keep you from getting that second or third or fourth layer deep but that's where you start to really get to the point where you can find the patterns where you can find that these problems are not isolated and that's what we've tried to do in this series is to show that these are not isolated problems and so to what you're saying earlier I don't feel like I'm an academic but I do feel like um one of the things we're doing that's really cool is me kind of trying to synthesize this information and then presenting it to you and then when there's areas either you haven't heard of or maybe you've heard of them differently or if there's something that you've heard of that I don't have in the presentation that we can kind of work into it to show that yeah there's this too and I think that's why there's a lot more value in having you there than just me talking because being able to get that feedback from you to either know to expand on something or to tie it back to something else I think is huge and when someone's listening or watching I think for them to be able to see that would be a lot more valuable than just going to like ldsdiscussions.com and reading it because that is much more dry and it doesn't have the benefit of having someone else there to say hey can you explain this a little better or can doesn't that tie into this or what about this and and I think those are where you get a lot more um beneficial conversations uh to these topics yeah perfect okay uh so that's gonna be my posture I'm learner your master teacher and uh I say that tongue-in-cheek but uh no I know you do know a lot okay and I'm just I'm just gonna very quickly I I at least as far as what I've said there's at least uh a couple things that some of our viewers and listeners have expressed concern over and I'm just going to own a couple things misstatements I made I'm totally comfortable saying that I don't know everything and sometimes I mess up and make mistakes and two mistakes that I made I think I indicated in a past episode that the word this is during the the priesthood restoration episode I think I think I indicated that the word Melchizedek doesn't show up anywhere in the Book of Mormon and that's that if I gave that impression that's actually wrong the word Melchizedek does appear in the Book of Mormon I believe it's in Alma um I'm a 13. and and I believe that it talks about he even mentions High priesthood and all I'm going to say there is what I what I think I meant to say was that the the priesthood that that we have now which is Melchizedek priesthood is a higher priesthood with with elder and high priest and then aaronic priesthood which is a lower priesthood with Deacon teacher you know that level of structure doesn't appear and I think it's even a stretch to say that having the character Melchizedek which is really just a Bible reference to have the character Melchizedek and to say that just referring to a generic High priesthood in some way is is really a statement of of how Joseph's priesthood ends up evolving by turn 1835 I think I was trying to say that's a stretch but I made a misstatement so I'm going to own that okay and Mike you can you can add to that if you want or we can just leave it leave it and the problem is we're so we're recording a lot of these episodes a little bit in advance so that one just aired so we've gotten some feedback on that and we I need to go back and listen to the episode but I think what would happen was we had a slide we were going through the fair Mormon response on the priesthood restoration and they had mentioned that Alma 13 shows that Joseph Smith was was aware of the Melchizedek priesthood and was um already you know had that idea in his head and what I believe we where we screwed up is I was saying I think I need to listen to it but I think we were saying that the the Melchizedek priesthood isn't in the Book of Mormon and what we're saying is Alma 13 is pulling from Hebrews 7 it's pulling from Hebrews chapter 7 and that's where the ideas of melchized have come in where you know he paid tithes to Abraham and we had talked about this a lot during the episode but Melchizedek the name is king of righteousness right so it's not necessarily a person and it's Hebrews 7 is kind of saying that Jesus has this priest sort of like the king of righteousness which means that we don't because Jesus doesn't need a priesthood like we would have you know and so I think what happened was when we got to that slide I was kind of conflating the fact that there's no development of the Melchizedek priesthood as the church has it in the Book of Mormon but there are references to Melchizedek in Alma 13 because he's pulling from Hebrews 7 at that time and so it's yeah that's a little bit where apologists will say of course he was thinking about it it's in the Book of Mormon but then you'd also say that's where he's pulling from Hebrews seven this is not unique content to the Book of Mormon and furthermore as we talked about in the episode a lot um the fact is if he was truly thinking about the Melchizedek priesthood when the Book of Mormon was written he would not have been ordained to the high priest who two years later would have happened as the church now claims it does but that being said I think we did kind of conflate those two things when we were doing that slide and so it came off as if we're saying there is no mention of Melchizedek in the Book of Mormon and I so we were wrong on that um because I think we were conflating the fact that we're are saying he's pulling from Hebrews 7 there and that he's not developing the melchizer priesthood in the Book of Mormon as it appears in the church today in any way and so we were kind of wrong because we I think we were at that point we're a couple hours in and I think we're kind of like almost relying on our earlier stuff but then it came off wrong so for that I wish I'd worded it better because it was on the slide I just kind of screwed up when I was talking about it okay is there any other correction we need to make that comes to your mind right now because I'm I'm happy to for this to be a dialogue and so I'm not embarrassed or ashamed when we make a mistake we'll own it we'll have a conversation and that'll be just part of the fun of the series is there anything else that comes to mind uh a criticism that we've received of something we got wrong that was the big one so far you know you get some comments on like YouTube and stuff and they're not ones where I I mean like I don't I usually try to reply um when I see him or if someone points them out to me um to explain where I'm coming from so I I but if someone does have them email them to us um it's a lot easier sometimes to get email and then we can go through it if you know because if we screw up we want to yeah um note that and like in this episode today there's some areas where I was making changes because I was trying to talk to some people to clarify some things and it was helpful because there were some things where I it gave me some new data that I didn't have before um so we obviously want to get it right and we're happy to go back and correct it even though it might be a few episodes later just because of the way we're recording them but we absolutely will um own up to it because the whole point of this series is to get the info out there and to do it in the most straightforward way we can so if we get it wrong we want to correct it yeah and we also want to model the behavior that we want to see in institutions which is when you make a mistake you own up to it you admit it you're you repent and you forsake the sin and you confess and then you try not to do it again all right so today let's jump in uh to the topic at hand let's talk about polygamy yeah so this is going to be we think it's going to be a five episode series in you know five episodes group within the series and um we want to cover not just the accounts of polygamy but where it began um how Joseph Smith was teaching about it in his proposals and what the impacts are today because of the fact that DNC 132 is still Doctrine and so there's this quote and I have no idea where it started I don't know if it was from someone famous but I saw once I thought it was really good especially for polygamy it says studying history will sometimes disturb you studying history will sometimes upset you studying history will sometimes make you Furious if studying history always makes you feel proud and happy you probably aren't studying history and I love that quote because for Mormon history we often are given this super clean uh presentation of Joseph Smith whether it's the first Vision the priesthood restoration The Book of Mormon translation with the Heming of sitting at the table with the gold plates and with polygamy um as a convert I only knew about polygamy because people made jokes about Utah and polygamies I was a little aware that I would hear like on a sitcom or something and when I talked about it or when I asked about it it was always told that it was It was kind of modeled almost like yeah it was more of a Brigham Young Thing um and and um at the time there was no real documentation when I joined and this is the late 90s um that really indicated that Joseph Smith head wise when you talk about like the the the manuals you're going to see in the church building on a Sunday they didn't really talk about it even the manual and Brigham Brigham Young I believe had a reference to Brigham Young's wife so um versus versus wives right versus what 55 wives or whatever he had so um one of the things about studying church history is it's going to make you really upset if you're a Believer um it's gonna make you upset even if you end up staying in the church even if you end up saying I'm okay with it if it doesn't make you upset if it doesn't make you uncomfortable um then you're not really studying history you're studying what the church wants you to study or you're studying a a watered-down history that is so uh detached from from the historic reality that you're not getting the full picture and I often hear people say um that I've had this happen a lot where they'll come to me with with the usually it's they'll say you're wrong about something I'll say can you read this because this is where I'm coming from they'll say no this stuff makes me too uncomfortable and I always want to say get uncomfortable because if you are not willing to get uncomfortable you are never ever going to get to the bottom of anything because if you truly believe in something you're not going to get into it yeah and so this stuff is going to upset you as a Believer and to be honest this stuff upsets me today as someone who I'm still a member but I'm not a Believer and um and so it's going to be difficult to go through these episodes but we're just trying to point out right off the top right you if you want to get to the full picture it's going to be upsetting we'll get through it together it won't be that bad um and and I think we're all better off even if you stay in the church you're better off knowing this stuff because if you have children that you're going to send off on a mission they should know these things before they go so that they can make the most informed decision they can if they want to spend two years of life you know uh proselytizing for this church because a lot of the times and we've talked about this on previous episodes I had um two missionaries that came over here after I started doing my deep dive and I became a word project and so they came over it was so funny because like oh we just happened to be in the area and it's like no you weren't but um I was talking with them and I said listen I will talk to you guys as long as you want I said but if you want to talk to me about why I should reconsider the church you have to listen to what I have to say and I told them I will only talk to you about stuff that's on the church's website I will not give you anything else only off the church's website and they were so uncomfortable with just the stuff I was talking about off the church's website they did not know yeah almost anything and this was three and a half years ago four years ago so the point is if everyone needs to know this stuff what you do with it that's up to you but everyone needs to know this stuff makes sense yeah and I'll just add one thing polygamy you know that that that quote if I'm trying to be fair that quote about history Cuts both ways because if you're if you are mad at the church and you hate polygamy in your studying history you may find journal entries of people who participated in polygamy and say they loved it so you know you don't have to comment on this but I'm just saying that can cut both ways including sometimes reading things that are disturbing to you if you've lost your faith so yeah and uh and to that point this is actually you're making a great point that I want we talk a lot in our episodes about apologetics right and so there are times where we'll talk about some of the apologists in the church who are trying I think they're best to make changes from the inside to find to change kind of the way the church frames things so whether it's Richard Bushman or um you know Patrick Mason uh Terrell Givens and sometimes you get frustrated because you read it and you're just like come on but at the same time the fact that I can read their stuff and even though it does make me uncontrollable like how can you you know make spin this into a good thing I think it's a good thing for me to read it because get getting their perspective has helped me a lot in in talking about this stuff getting the perspective of Richard Bushman or I'm trying to think Dan McClellan um he does a lot of great videos getting some of his perspectives have been so helpful even though sometimes I'm like oh that's so frustrating so it does cut both ways and if you are a Critic there is a lot of value in finding somebody that you disagree with but that can present it in a way that's respectful and that at least backs up what they're saying whether or not you agree with it because even if it makes you uncomfortable it is so helpful to have the perspectives of both sides yeah yeah I I interviewed Patrick Mason who's probably the preeminent Mormon scholar right now in the Mormon studies field and I asked him about polygamy yesterday and he's just like I don't believe it and I I believe that scripture can be wrong and so for me DNC 132 at least a good chunk of it isn't even scripture and this guy is a faithful active devout member who's one of the most well respected faithful Mormon scholars in the world and yeah that was surprising anyway let's jump on to the next Slide the devil is in the details with polygamy yeah and so this is one of the we've talked about this so many times with these topics where a lot of times if you get below the surface that's when you start to really see that the details are going to give you a really clear picture of what's going on and so we talk about this all the time and with polygamy you're gonna have a lot of members that rationalize it by saying something like it'll all work on the end we just don't know everything um and a lot of people will say I hear this all the time which is I'm so glad I don't have to live in a time where we practice that and um the fact is this is still the doctrine of the church and every member of the church needs to understand how Joseph Smith implemented engage in polygamy because this is still the doctrine of the church DNC 132 is still canonized Doctrine and the implications are still there for the eternities um when we talk about the church removing polygamy we're talking about the church removing polygamy for time meaning on Earth but after death this is still what every member of the church has to look forward to and if you're a member of the church and you're saying I'm so glad I don't have to live under the polygamy I mean I feel so horrible saying this but you do have to live through it it's just that instead of living through it for eternity plus our 80 years on Earth you just have to live for eternity with it and so this is not something um that goes away uh Forever This is under the church's Doctrine unless they can't you know remove uh 132 from the Canon this is still what you have to look forward to and so when women say they have a choice as we go through these episodes you have to understand your choices to accept or be destroyed and people will say oh you're taking it out of context and we'll get to it when we get to the DNC 132 episode but these this is not out of context this is something the church doesn't want to talk about because they know how uncomfortable it is they know how damning it is but at the same time until they remove it this is the future for every woman in the church and every man in the church for eternity yeah and I think a great reference to that is the book The Ghost of Eternal polygamy By Carolyn Pearson I'll include that in the show notes and also we do an interview with Carolyn Pearson about her book on Mormon stories so we'll include that in uh the show notes as well okay so the next slide is every believing member of the church needs to know this information and we've already kind of made this point yeah we made it with the missionaries so what do you want to summarize about this slide that we haven't yeah you know all I say is just these things are not going to be easy they're not going to be fun but if you don't know them you can't possibly understand I guess what you're sustaining in church every Sunday and as I said earlier if you're sending your kids off to missions if you're bringing your kids to church on Sunday and you're doing it without knowing the full history of the church I think you're doing a disservice not to yourself but to your your family as well and I know people get really offended by that but I do believe that we um myself having having a kid who's at the age now we're starting to kind of understand more and more of this stuff I feel like if he doesn't have the full picture and you just send them with one side it's just it's not putting them on a path that is um you know I would argue the best one and and the church had uh updated their handbook I believe this was in 2021 it might have been 2020 but they have a this section about basically you know sources of you know sources and information and it says in today's world information is easy to access and share this can be a great blessing for those seeking to be educated and informed however many sources of information are unreliable and do not edify some sources seeks promote anger contention fear or baseless conspiracy theories therefore is it important it is important that church members be wise as they seek the truth and this is the problem where you hear all the time in the church where they'll say if it makes you feel good it's from God if it makes you feel bad it's from the devil this stuff is not going to make you feel good it's not going to edify it's not going to make you feel warm and fuzzy inside and the church is going to want you to think that because of that you need to stay away from it and it's not reliable but the problem is these are all historically based a lot of these are accounts by the wit by the the wives of Joseph Smith themselves or the people around Joseph Smith and so them not being edifying is not because Satan you know caused me to write this or because the adversary is trying to deceive you away from the church it's because the history of the church in the history of polygamy is so much more troubling than what we've been taught that it's going to make you feel upset to hear it but I just want to stayed up front that that does not mean it's from Satan it just means that's how you feel in response to the information and that's something you need to be aware of as we go through these episodes because a lot of times we feel bad and we want to run it's the whole backfire effect thing it's the fight or flight mentality I just want to stay up front that you're this is not going to be edifying but it is going to be historically back and at the end of this do it through what you want but I just want to make that clear because the church often tells us if it makes you feel bad don't read it don't listen to it but this is history and it's not going to make you feel good yeah yeah that's a really that's a really important Point um okay the next Slide the devil is in the details uh you have two more there you go okay religious leaders have Justified polygamy Beyond Joseph Smith so we're going to do a whole episode on Joseph Smith's happiness letter um but we're this is part of what we're going to cover in that episode is Jonathan Streeter who has the YouTube channel um thoughts on things and stuff which is awesome and you should subscribe if you don't um he did a presentation at Sunstone about the happiness letter and it was one of the most important presentations I've ever heard from Mormon history and when I heard it the first time I was absolutely floored and that's why we're gonna do a whole episode on it because it's that important and he made this point and I think every member of the church again it needs to understand that polygamy is something that every uh not every but a lot of high demand religious leaders have done in the same manners the same kind of tactics as Joseph Smith and so in his presentation he says the following keep in mind that special Divine permission is nothing new self-proclaimed Prophet Deva quresh and the Branch Davidians claim special Divine permission to take child Brides for the purposes of producing the 24 Elders foretold in the Book of Revelations self-proclaimed Prophet Wayne bent of the Lord our Righteousness Church claims special Divine permission for having sexual relations with children even his own daughter-in-law in order to avoid God's punishment self-proclaimed Prophet Julia Shack now of the SEC known as the work claims special privilege to promise salvation exchange for sexual intercourse with women and children including his own stepdaughter self-proclaimed Prophet Tony Alamo of Alamo Christian Ministries claimed special biblical permission to illegally marry multiple women and children self-looking Prophet David Berg of children of God claims special mission to normalize sexual relation with children prophets justifying their own predations a special Divine permission through the use of Pious language and religious sentiment is nothing new and that's going to make you feel like crap to hear but the point is as you listen to this and when I this doesn't even mention Warren Jeff as you listen to these episodes understand that you have to once you start to give special pleading about Joseph Smith is doing here you then have to look at all these other leaders who did the exact same thing in the voice of God and at some point you have to either say it's different because I believe in it or this is a pattern that's been done throughout history and every time that someone has done it it's shown to not be from God it's shown to be abused and we're going to go through this in a lot more detail but I just want to get that out up front because this is something that is done has been done by a lot of leaders it's being done by a lot of religious leaders and some of the offshoots especially the you know the fundamentalist offshoots and yeah it's horrific yeah if you find it to be horrific with them you can't then turn around and say this is from God With Us I have a really hard time with that yeah yeah that this really struck home to me when I watched the recent HBO documentary The Vow about Keith Renee and Nexium the Nexium cult and then when I watched uh David koresh in the Waco video where David kresh is like sitting on the roof with one of his married male followers and it's like hey I've got a I've got a higher law I want to share with you and the followers like okay what he's like Joe David Christ is like I want to relieve you of the burden of having sexual relations with your wife I'll take that burden on for you so that you can focus on your spirituality and I'm just like this is every cult leader ever is he starts sleeping with with his father's wives and then daughters and you don't have to you don't have to Riff on that I just wanted to say me too that's kind of uh no I mean it's and that's really the problem is just the fact that we've talked about this with a lot of episodes where these things are all around and in this case it's been happening before Joseph Smith is happening since Joseph Smith and we talk about special pleading it's when you're saying yeah all of those people are completely horrific and wrong but mine is different yeah I think that's really a hard case to make especially as we go through these episodes and we're going to reference back to this quote um more as we go but it's really important just to know this is not unique to Joseph Smith and a lot of people in positions of authority have been doing the same thing for you know hundreds of years yeah it's kind of The Human Condition okay so now we get to a very basic timeline of the introduction of Mormon polygamy yeah and so this one is one you know where I talked earlier about how you know it's kind of getting some extra details so with the fanny Alger relationship that is what is considered by the church to be Joseph's first first marriage and from the standpoint like where I'm at I don't believe it was a marriage we'll get through the reasons why I think that but this could have happened anywhere from 1833 to early 1836 and so the church wants to claim this is a marriage but there are no records that exist about being a marriage there's only some descriptions of a marriage that come late um and we'll cover this in a couple slides so that would be kind of like depending on where you date that that might be the first kind of introduction to Mormon polygamy I would also note that and we'll get to this in a few slides the church wants to say in 1831 Joseph Smith was first given the Revelation we'll get to that as well um in 1835 the church under the leadership of Joseph Smith inserts the section to the Doctrine and Covenants which denounces polygamy okay and I keep forgetting so book of Commandments didn't have that section in it it did not okay okay I forget that sometimes no it did not and so that's that's the first time that's put in there 1836 is when Joseph um will claim to have a vision of both Eliza Elias and Elijah who are the same person with different translations um to restore the priesthood Keys which are later to be understood to be ceiling Keys um that'll be important as we go just because especially with the Fannie algebra timeline um 1841 is when the polygamous marriages for Joseph begin in Nauvoo with Luisa Beeman 1842 we talked about this I think a little bit I think we talked about this in the previous episode but Joseph actually slows down his polygamous marriages because um John Bennett's trying to uh you know he's involved in what is the church term spiritual wifery and that's kind of exposed and because it's exposed it kind of almost brings Joseph down with him so Joseph Smith kind of has to stop everything for a period of time because of all of the rumors that are now swirling around you can almost think you can almost think of spiritual life where he is code for for polygamy that Joseph doesn't like right yeah I mean that's the thing our fifth episode is going to really hammer on apologetics and really focus a lot on apologetics and that's the thing like you know it's all about framing right it's all about how you frame words to get the the reaction you want and so it's like kind of one of those things where spiritual Warframe and polygamy or plural marriage however you want to call it it's all the same thing it's just how do you want to kind of Market it so that one is bad and one is good and yeah it's Patrick Patrick called polygamy Patrick Mason called polygamy apologetics lipstick on a pig that was literally those are literally his words and he's right because at some point point you you know one of the things we'll talk about in these episodes is that the church does everything they can to make Joseph Smith seem as clean and perfect as they can especially like in their essay and in doing so you're trying to demonize everyone else who's doing the same things Joseph is literally teaching them to do yeah and and John C Bennett obviously was not a good person uh I think he was doing a lot of horrible things but I also feel like John C Bennett was picked by Joseph and brought up through the church very quickly because of the fact that they were close I mean and they were they were you know learning off each other and we'll get into that as we go but yeah spiritual life for you it really is more of just you know my background is in marketing as I always think of that as like you know in marketing you have different terms and they can meet they're the same term but they'll give you a different reaction from a customer well in this case plural marriage in the church is what they like to use plural marriage is like all Celestial Celestial Celestial and then spiritual wifery is like this complete debauchery and that's what they would consider like any other sex being doing like whether it's Warren Jeffs or John C Bennett or David koresh in reality it's kind of like there's a meme from the office where Pam's sitting there and they're like corporate wants you to I forgot the meme and they show her two things and she says they're the same thing I mean that's kind of what that is it's the same thing and so anyways okay um 1843 Joseph resumes polygamy marries over a dozen women and that brings a total to over 30 and then on July 12 1843 Joseph actually recites the Revelation to William Clayton which is now known as DNC 132. yeah so I mean yeah pay we should pay attention to Fanny Alger as the first kind of plural wife that that the church now acknowledges and we'll get to the fact that she was a domestic uh help in the home that there was undue influence there but that's before the actual ceiling power was ever given we'll get to that and then and then a couple things that are just jumping out at me is just that is that Joseph's 20 or 30 wives in before the DNC 132 is even revealed which is yeah clearly problematic as well so okay that's that's a great summary the next slide is the Book of Mormon and polygamy and we covered this in a previous episode I think we've covered in multiple previous episodes but the Book of Mormon is absolutely clear that polygamy is abominable and so I'm just going to read you this you've probably all heard this it's in Jacob too it says behold David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines which thing was abominable before me saith the Lord wherefore thus saith the Lord I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem by the power of mine arm that I might raise up unto me a righteous Branch from the fruit of the lines of Joseph wherefore I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old wherefore my brother and hear me and hearken to the word of the Lord for there shall not be any man among you save it be one wife and concubines he shall have none for I the Lord God Delight in the Chastity of women and whoredoms are an Abomination before me thus saith the Lord of hosts wherefore this people shall keep my Commandments saith the Lord of hosts or curse it be the land for their sakes for if I will saith the Lord hosts raise up seat unto me I will command my people otherwise they shall hearken unto those things these things and then in verse 23 you know just we're you know in the Book of Mormon we were told that God tells the people they are seeking to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms because of the things which were written concerning David and Solomon and his son and so I just can I can I get two reactions to that yeah please do so as the learner here number one what I get from that scripture if you know from past episodes what I've learned is that the The Book of Mormon represents um uh you know just like the 1832 First Vision by Joseph Smith shows what Joseph Smith believed in in the godhead about the godhead at the time he gave that that first account of the first Vision The Book of Mormon represents what Joseph believed or thought or wanted communicated publicly at the time he wrote it so what this shows is that Joseph generally was against polygamy at the time that he wrote the Book of Mormon I'm sure Emma was happy with that but it also shows in verse 30 if I'm just reading it kind of as a learner then in his mind he's got like uh maybe someday that might be something that we look into but for now it's a no that's what I'm taking that's what I'm taking from Book of Mormon yeah I I think that's it and so generally it's a whoredom that generally it's bad yeah right it's yeah and and you know we had you had David bachvoy on he talked about the different scriptures and you would ask them about polygamy and he was like well in no point in the Bible does God command polygamy right in any kind of widespread way I think there's one instance in the Bible where he commands one person to enter into polygamy to take care of a family member or something like that but not like this and uh and then he also talks about how in the Bible whenever there's polygamy it ends poorly so it's not written as if this is a good thing to do and so the Book of Mormon is often using Bible stories to to basically repurpose into a 19th century theology we've talked about this over and over again there's so much in the Bible that comes into the Book of Mormon that's an ideological myth that he brings in his literal history or um like we talked about in the priesthood restoration he brings in um you know a misreading of Hebrews 7 about the Melchizedek priesthood which is going to then kind of flow through and the long-ending a mark and all these other things but the the reality with the Book of Mormon is that he appears to be making very clear through the voice of God that God finds polygamy to be repulsive and so this is going to be something that everyone needs to kind of remember from this episode because this is going to spill over into pretty much every one of the next few episodes because Joseph Smith just as he does with other areas of the church is going to contradict himself but in this case he's going to contradict God and that is where you run into a lot of problems when you're creating things in the voice of God but then you have to change them later uh you're going to make God look very indecisive um and very unsure of himself because or herself but um this is going to be an area where God is going to directly contradict God's own words in future stuff and that is a problem if you believe God is is never uh changing and like eternally consistent right so I'm I'm guessing that for this next slide implications of the Book of Mormon polygamy we've covered some of that anything else you want to say from this slide yeah and you know what not not really much just just to say again that Jacob 2 23 says that the people are looking to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms because of the things which were written concerning David and Solomon Hassan just want everyone to remember that because that's going to be so important in the next few episodes because the Book of Mormon is saying that these people are committing these bad things because they're trying to excuse um themselves because they're doing horrible things by using David and Solomon as justification and we'll get into it but DNC 132 God basically is like oh yeah that's Justified so it's a huge problem it's almost like projection like Joseph is yeah signaling to you in the future what he's going to be doing well I mean yeah and why and why he's doing that but yeah it's it's just it's one of those things where it's like that's the problem with speaking in the voice of God and we've talked about this in past episodes but that was why when Russell Nelson in 2015 went out of his way to say that God confirmed upon every one of the Apostles that he wanted that November 15 policy of exclusion and that it was direct Revelation that he put himself in a box because when the church had to reverse it three and a half years later then all of a sudden it's got to be Revelation from God again and all of a sudden you go why in the world is God unable to see what's going to happen three and a half years later and this is the same problem here except this is something that's so much more foundational to the church and it's based off of what is really just a confused version of God in the Mormon Framing and that's a huge problem if you're creating Revelation and they're just contradicting each other and as you said I think what Patrick Mason said is true like trying to excuse us is just putting lipstick on a pig because this is as we'll show in these episodes just a mess and trying to justify it at this point I think is a losing battle yeah okay so so this next applied we're gonna we're jumping back to 1831 now and as I'm remembering the timeline you just showed us the reason why we're jumping back to 1831 is because because the timeline's so problematic for the church in terms of the ceiling power well Fanny owls are coming before the ceiling power and then and then polygamy coming before the the uh DNC 132 that's all problematic and so the reason why we're starting with 1831 is because the church needs something to pin polygamy on prior to Fanny Alger 1831 is a date and an event that the church can say hey we've got some polygamy stirrings before Fanny Alger even happens so I'm guessing that's why right now we're jumping in 1831 is that right yeah so we start with the Book of Mormon which is like 1829 now we're jumping to 1831 but this is why it's important because in the DNC heading they'll say although the Revelation was recorded in 1843 evidence indicates that some of the principles involved in the Revelation were known by the prophet as early as 1831 and so they are trying now to say that basically Joseph Smith got this Revelation 12 years earlier that he recorded it and their essay on polygamy and kurtland Nauvoo states that basically restates this idea by saying the Revelation on Perler marriage was not written down until 1843 but its early verses suggests that part of it emerged from Joseph Smith's study of the ultimate Old Testament 1831 people who knew Joseph well later stated he received the Revelation about their time and like you said the one big reason the church needs to pinpoint polygamy back this early is because of his affair with Fanny Alger and we're going to cover that more um The Fanny algebra but we need to get into what this 1831 Revelation is actually about because it's not helpful to what the church is saying whatsoever and that's why they don't actually tell you what it was yeah okay so what is the 1831 Revelation unplugging me about and so we covered this in the episodes on race and the scriptures of Mormonism but the people that know just knew Joseph well here refers to W.W Phelps Oliver cowdery and five other men who received instruction for their mission to go to the Indians to take additional wives to make the Indians whiter and this is from the claimed Revelation now this is W.W Phelps he's claiming this happened in 1831 he says it is my well he's saying that Joseph Smith is saying this it is my will that in time ye should take unto you wives of the lamanites and Nephites that their posterity may become white Delights them and just for even now their females are more virtuous than their Gentiles than the Gentiles and so W.W Phelps is a friendly source and so you would say that WWE Phelps is writing us down years later and he's trying to pin this into a polygamous thing because you know of course they're looking at it through the lens of polygamy being open at this time but we also have an antagonistic source that confirm firms that Joseph Smith claimed a revelation from God that they should marry the Native Americans and this is as we talked about in the race and the scriptures episode this is who Joseph Smith of course labels as the lamanites in claimed Revelation from God and so this is Ezra Booth who left the church and after he leaves he kind of writes these pretty scathing letters and so in 1831 he writes it has been made known by Revelation that it will be will be pleasing to the Lord should they form a matrimonial alliance with the natives and by this means the elders who comply with the thing so pleasing to the Lord and for which the Lord has promised to bless those who do it abundantly gain a residence in the Indian Territory independent of the agent and so we have two sources one positive one negative both saying that in 1831 Joseph Smith is claiming a revelation that they should take the Native Americans um as wives or concubines because it's not really um laid out here that they would actually be like living wives this would be more of like a concubine kind of system yeah it almost seems like there away from their families and they're going to be restless they're going to want some sex frankly and so yeah these these Native Americans they're darker they're not worth as much anyway you don't have to like actually live live with them and support them financially but if you're there and if they're you know families are okay with it you can go ahead and take them as a concubine sleep with them so that's one it's sort of showing a real devaluing of them as people because you're not really showing full commitment but then also there's just This Racist idea that we talked about in the in the race and Mormonism episode where where they don't fully understand how genetics and melanin works or melatonin or whatever melanin and it's not melatonin melanin and so they're basically saying we as white people are so good that if we mix our seed you know or have sex with the natives their kids are going to be more white which in their minds means more righteous that's not helping anybody yeah and they're trying you know in a way I think um Ezra Booth's comment almost seems like he's saying you can take these women as concubines and then as you have churches you're going to then get more member members of the church in these Native American or Indian reservations which will give you more influence in their lands which is also kind of a horrible thing which is to say that you're telling these people go preach to them have sex with the women and then as you have kids with them you're going to have more members of the church there and that will gain you a residence in the Indian territories Ezra Booth says and that's kind of a bad thing too because it feels from like looking at it now it feels like a kind of shady way to work your way into areas that you're trying to get into I know from a from a believing standpoint you'd say that this allows the Native Americans to come to Christ by spreading the gospel by getting more kids in there I just I feel like when you have wwf's talking about how the Revelation wants them to become more white and the fact that this has nothing to do with ceiling this has nothing to do with anything that has to do with the 1843 Revelation you've got all sorts of problems citing this as as a as a continuation from this to 1843 that this is just not the same thing it's also super cool colonialistic oh yeah you know and then finally now that we know that the Native Americans predominantly don't have he he you know Hebrew DNA but they have Asiatic DNA now that the church doesn't even know who the lamanites are again it begs the question there are they even sleeping with lamanites at all right yeah it's just it's it's a mess and to cite that and there's a reason they cite that without telling you what it is and um so this is another 1831 reference to polygamy that the church is never going to cite I mean they cite it kind of but like so Mary Elizabeth Rollins Leitner Smith who is famous in church history for protecting the printed copies of the book of Commandments when the mob came in Missouri uh was later a Polly Andrus wife of Joseph Smith we'll get to polyandry later and she gives us a count of her introduction to polygamy uh this is in her own words at the age of 12 in 1831 Joseph Smith told me about his great vision concerning me he said I was the first woman God commanded him to take as a plural wife in 1834 he was commanded to take me for a wife in 1842 I went forward and was sealed to him Brigham Young performed the ceiling for time in all eternity I did Justice Joseph Smith told me to do and this is from in sacred loneliness which is another resource that everyone who wants to know more about polygamy should read Because Todd Compton I think allows the women to kind of tell their own stories as opposed to having the church tell it for them but um and I think he's still a believing member um but anyways this is I I want to be clear I don't believe believe this the story at all I think that Mary Elizabeth Rollins Leitner Smith is trying to write to retrofit polygamy in so that it makes sense in the timeline because I do not believe for a second that Joseph Smith in 1831 is going to a 12 year old and telling her that he's going to marry her I I don't believe that so um it just goes to show we've talked about this so often in these episodes that so much of church history is retrofitted back into these accounts um to be be more faith promoting and in a lot of cases more consistent um but that being said if you're going to cite uh references among those who knew Joseph best you then have to concede that Joseph Smith is talking to 12 year old girls and saying that God commanded him to marry them I just it's a um if they want to cite these things and cite them but this is not helpful and there's a reason they don't talk about Joseph Smith going to a 12 year old and telling her he's going to marry her and um if this really did happen I do not believe for a second that she'd marry someone else in 1835 so I just don't believe it's true that being said if you're going to cite these sources cite them yeah that makes sense yeah that's not a helpful not a helpful statement No and so these are two 1831 Revelations that are completely unaware of any polygamous Revelations and so um I want to just kind of bring this up because they're going to contradict DNC 132 but they're also going to contradict the church's statement that Joseph Smith was aware of this Revelation already so DNC 42 verse 22 was written in 1831 it says Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart and shall cleave unto her and none else and DNC 49 16 which was also in 1831 says wherefore it is lawful that he should have one wife and they twain shall be one flesh and all this that the Earth might answer the end of his creation so both of these are written in 1831 when we're told that Joseph Smith already have polygamy revealed to him and they're both explicit that you should have one wife and shall cleave unto her and no one none else and so this is an area where you could see that the church is trying to back backfill a problematic Revelation to an earlier time so that that it works but then you also have these conflicting data points constantly let's say that Joseph Smith was not thinking about these things in any possible way yet and as a final note Joseph Smith would edit these revelations in 1835 which would give him a second chance if he wanted to leave some space for polygamy as he edited so many other Revelations and yet he did not take that chance so Not only was he unaware of uh Revelation about polygamy in 1831 but he's also unaware in 1835 when he's making these edits yeah it's a it's a god of confusion you know I was always taught growing up as a Mormon that God is not a god of confusion or the author of confusion right and it makes no sense that God's revealing to Joseph the law of polygamy as it relates to Native Americans in 1831 and in the same year is is giving Joseph Revelations to put in the Mormon scripture that polygamy is you know bad or that you should have just one wife or uh all that stuff it just that that makes no sense so that's a really good thing to highlight yeah and that's why when we get to DNC 132 I think multiple times in that Revelation he says you know my house is a house to order and it's like well kind of in the Mormon framing of God it's not and that's why we see that all the times just so many contradictions in God's Own voice and that does not make sense um yeah so anyways so we're talking about how the church's essay frames the timing of the Revelation and so you know we talked about this earlier where it says the Revelation was not written down until 1843 but it's early verses suggests that part of it came from a study of the Old Testament 1831 people who knew Joseph well later stated he received the Revelation about the time and you know the early verses of DNC 132 are set up to justify polygamy but they're using incorrect Bible references that we talked about this at the beginning of the episode God never once commands Abraham to enter into polygamy he does not Sarah commands him to take um Hagar God never has any part in that God only goes to Hagar and says you know you need to go back because uh you know obviously it goes poorly with with Sarah after it happens um and those who as we talked about just a few slides ago those who knew Joseph Smith well um were saying that he wanted to take Native American children to make their posterity wider not that Joseph Smith was teaching any form of polygamy that would be practiced uh by the church later on such as ceilings and you know doing um kind of like this eternal mindset of relation of marriages there's none of that here and so the way they frame the timing of the Revelation just simply does not match the historical record I also want to just call attention to that word later people who knew Joseph well later stated he received the Revelation about that time I mean if if there's the pattern of motivated reasoning in all of this Mormon history that we're reading then of course if men who are practicing polygamy later you know just like with just like with Joseph and Oliver back dating John the Baptist as giving the aaronic priesthood and Peter James John is giving the Melchizedek priesthood he's doing that years after it allegedly happened just like years later almost over a decade later he's claiming the first Vision there's always kind of this let's rewrite history there's this impulse to rewrite history to justify current crises or trauma it just would totally fit the pattern if men who are trying to justify polygamy later are remembering back into the history Joseph talking about polygamy from before Fanny Alger so that they could then make an excuse for financial I'm not saying that's what happened I'm just saying that would fit the pattern yeah and in that particular case they're referring to W.W Phelps because that's his recollection of Joseph Smith's 1831 Revelation which I think he writes down in like 1860 or something yeah but the thing is to your point they need not just to backfill into the timing for Fanny algebra they also need to backfill that Joseph Smith was unquestionally a polygamist because this is also when the church uh the Brigham Young faction in the rlds are basically they hate each other and they don't trust each other and so the brighamite church needs to make Joseph Smith as polygamous as they can because they need to to basically draw that to for their you know Authority in the rlds church is saying no he wasn't and so um this back dating by W.W Phelps who is in the brighamite church also serves their purpose at that time not just for Joseph Smith's character and all that but also for their current needs at that time which is to prove Beyond a doubt that Joseph Smith was a polygamous so yeah to your point those are those quotes are very um very have high motivated reasoning and the only reason that I love that quote and by love I mean I I like it for this particular thing it's because we have Ezra Booth's quote which confirms it in his is contemporary so we have a positive and a negative source so I think that's why it's important got it so all right now we're getting to faniology and as I said earlier um the key reason the church wants to to make sure that that the polygamy Revelation was back by 1831 is because a few years later Joseph's going to be caught in a scandalous relationship with Fannie Alger um no precise records exist so we have people that believe it happened in 1833 and then some have it going kind of early to mid 1836 excuse me and depending on when you date it Joseph Smith's going to be between 27 and 30 years old and Fanny's going to be between 16 and 19 years old and Fanny Algeria is going to be a living maid so basically she's going to live in their house to help Emma Smith and um she's going to live with them starting in 1833 which is why that's kind of the earliest this could have happened and the church's essay kind of talks about this relationship in the following way they say fragmentary evidence suggests that Joseph Smith acted on the Angel's First Command by marrying a plural wife Fanny Alger in Kirtland Ohio in the mid-1830s several Latter-Day Saints who had lived in Kirtland reported decades later that Joseph had married Alger who lived and worked in the Smith household after he'd obtained her consent and that of her parents and just with that Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner Smith quote I do not believe this was a marriage and I think when we get to the the actual quote you're going to understand why in the exact same way we just talked about with the w w Phelps thing this late quote that we're going to get where they say decades later is very self-serving because once again it's in a time when you're trying to privilege Joseph Smith and it's so long after the fact got it okay that makes sense so this is the one and so as I was saying there's no record of a marriage there's no documentation that a marriage took place on a certain day and this is important to know because the church wants to needs to declare this as a polygamist marriage because they do not want it to be an affair from a prophet of God who is using you know the exact same tactics later to marry other women and so this is the quote they're going to give us and this is from mosiah Hancock which is a second hand source to his father Levi from 1869 and he says therefore Brother Joseph said brother Levi I want to make a bargain with you if you will get Fannie Alger for a wife or me for a wife you may have Clarissa Reed I love Fannie I will said father go brother Levi and the Lord will prosper you said Joseph father goes to Fanny and said Fanny Brother Joseph the prophet loves you and wishes you for a wife will you be his wife I will Levi said she father takes Fanny to Joseph and said Brother Joseph I have been successful in my mission father gave her to Joseph repeating the ceremony as Joseph repeated to him and so I do not believe for a second that this quote is real I think there's the fact that there's no record of this marriage tells you that it probably didn't happen and the fact is there is no record of Joseph having any kind of a ceremonial script at this point that is not going to happen until the 1840s and so the idea that he had this in the 1830s and it wasn't written down or anything just doesn't make any sense um and as we talked about the ceiling Keys depending on when you date this are likely either going to be three years later or like right after um Joseph Smith is going to be already engaged in this in this relationship and so from the church's perspective if you want to cite this account I believe they should put the quote in the essay because if you really want to use this you're going to have to then contend with the fact that we have Joseph Smith using um Clarissa Reed as a bargaining ship because Levi Hancock wants to marry uh Clarissa Reed and ask Joseph for permission I'm not sure why he needed to ask Joseph for permission anyways and then Joseph says yeah you can marry her if you could get me Fanny as a wife I think if you really want to use this quote then all of a sudden you've got Joseph Smith using women as bargaining chips for Spiritual favors and I think that is horrific too so it's like pick your poison here and so the church is going to kind of you know vaguely reference this this uh citation but they're not going to tell you what it says the other thing I'll just note is from our my readings of Doctrine and Covenants 132 specifically when we had Sandra Tanner on there's this language in DNC 32 which is like and behold if if you are righteous and she is a virgin she she shall be given unto you there's all this language in DNC 132 the women are kind of like cattle to be given and assigned by God or by God's prophet and so this idea this quote of like you give me Clarissa and you know you get me Fanny I'll give you Clarissa it's very consistent with with the way dnc-132 describes how the patriarchy views women more as cattle and bargaining chips than actually is humans it also fits in really well with I think how polygamy went once you got from Joseph Smith and then into Utah I mean they're they're you know listening to like Lindsey Hansen Park's episodes there are a lot of instances where you have people that are basically making deals um you know to almost exchange women for favors and so this that's why this quote is very anachronistic to 1833 or 34 whenever you want to date the marriage 30 even 35 36 um it's very anachronistic but I just I love the fact that they're citing this quote that has Joseph Smith basically using you know Fannie and Clarissa Reedus bargaining chips which I think they would really want to avoid telling their members because it reads awful when you read it and um and like I said it's just it's it's so the way as you said it's phrased it's just it's out of place to that time frame and so that is a really good indicator that that is not a true account yeah yeah that makes sense okay so what was the Fallout so the Fallout was huge obviously and uh it caused a lot of problems for Joseph Smith uh Emma Smith threw her out of the house when she found out that they were having a relationship um Oliver cowdery in a letter uh wrote that it was a dirty nasty filthy Affair of his and Fanny algers was talked about was talked over in which I strictly declared that I had never deserted from the truth and the matter and as and as I suppose was admittedly by himself um and so um this creates a lot of issues and so the church's essay says that after the marriage with Alger and in separation Joseph seems to have set the subject of plural marriage aside until after the church moved to Nauvoo Illinois and again what they don't mention is that the relationship ended in separation because Emma kicked her out of the house I believe in the middle of the night uh after finding them together and so according to William McClellan uh he's an early member of the church Who would know but he's later considered to be an antagonistic Source because he apostasized and obviously was was um not a fan of Joseph Smith he told Joseph Smith's son the following again I told her Emma Smith I heard that one night she missed Joseph and Fanny Alger she went to the barn and saw him and Fanny in the barn together alone she looked through a crack and saw the transaction she told me the story too was verily true and so you have this um relationship that's building with with Joseph and Fannie and once it's discovered Emma kicks her out of the house uh you know which ends whatever relationship they had Oliver cowdery is this is going to play into largely into his ex communication from the church because he does not view it as a marriage remember Oliver cowdery at this point is basically the number two this is you know if you want to believe Fanny uh the the relationship was in 1835 or 36 which I know is what Brian Hales and Dan Vogel both agree on um it might be but before the ceiling key the keys in the curling Temple but either way it's a little later than 1833 that would be before Oliver or it would be after Oliver was made the number two man after he creates the priesthood restoration story so you have the number two person in the church who has no idea that Joseph Smith has this polygamy Revelation because he's calling it an affair and I think that's another important indicator because we're often always like oh man Oliver got is communicated for it it's like yeah that's important but it's also important because that tells us that he had no idea that Joseph myth was creating any kind of system of polygamy or had a revelation on it because he would know yeah you can't like on the one hand say well Oliver is a credible witness to the Book of Mormon you know he's one of the three Witnesses so you got to believe him and he's also a witness to the priesthood Restorations and you know but but then all of a sudden God wants Oliver to be a witness to all these sorts of things but then leaves Oliver completely out of the loop when it comes to polygamy there's something that stinks there that God that God wouldn't care enough about polygamy and plural marriage and women and families to and at some point Oliver was even like co-president of the church he wasn't just like he was like co-president and so it's just suspicious but then also women often remind us that what about Emma like didn't Emma deserve a revelation didn't you know later DNC 132's got this law of Sarah that basically says that the first wife needs to consent to feel or at least be given the option of consent of subsequent wives so why didn't why didn't Emma deserve a visit from God too or does God just not care about the women and and so I think we often forget that God owed something not just to Oliver but to Emma as well oh yeah I mean it just shows like I said it shows that all of this is in Joseph's head and at this point just as we talked about with some of these earlier kind of foundational things such as the first vision of priest restoration this idea of polygamy is not developed yet and so this is yeah uh I I would argue that anyone looking at this from the outside I would call this an affair because there is nothing supporting the idea that it's a marriage until you get to years later and at that point they're trying to privilege Joseph Smith so you can't just go with that without you know looking at the con the corroborating stuff that we've been talking about totally and so this is some more kind of confirmation of how this ends and so um after Emma discovers the relationship between her husband and their living maid Emma throws Fanny out of their home and so um analyze a web young says now of course people consider her antagonistic Source but she um says Emma had turned Fanny out of the house in the Night by degrees it became whispered about that Joseph's love for his adopted daughter was by no means a paternal affection and his wife discovering the fact at once took measures to place the girl Beyond his reach angered at finding the 2 persons whom she most loves playing such a treacherous part towards her she by no means spared her reproaches and finally the storm became so Furious that Joseph was obliged to send at midnight for Oliver cowdery his scribe to come and Endeavor to settle matters between them and so people will dismiss it and say she's an antagonistic Source after she was a polygamous bride of Brigham Young but she would know about this because of the fact that Fannie was sent to her parents house after Emma kicked her out and so here is Anne's father Chauncey Webb speaking about the incident he says Emma was Furious and drove the girl who was unable to conceal the consequences of her Celestial relation with the prophet out of her house and so here you've got um and Eliza webyoung saying that Joseph Smith referred to her as an adopted daughter and that's important because that happens more than once where Joseph calls someone who lives in the home and adopt a daughter and then later proposes uh proposes to marry to them and in this case I don't believe there was a wedding but I think he probably did call her an adopted daughter they weren't literally adopted but just kind of the way that the relationship was so if you call someone your adopted daughter you should not be having sexual relations with them and um and then you've got her father um saying that there effectively was a pregnancy or some consequence of their sexual relations that caused her to go and I think most historians don't believe that Joseph Smith got her pregnant but um Fannie would marry fairly shortly after leaving um them so I mean it's possible I don't think there's any real um history that shows that she was pregnant but it does show that this was probably a relationship that lasted months um and a relationship that was kind concealed by from Emma for months between Joseph and his adopted daughter to me it also these quotes explain why Oliver cowdery would call it a dirty filthy nasty Affair if it's true that like things with Emma and Joseph were boiling over to the point where Joseph had to call you know Oliver Calgary to come kind of calm Emma down and settle things down that would make sense why Oliver would know about it and would characterize it as a dirty filthy nasty affair because he was embroiled in the middle of it and so this this kind of seems to fit uh fit well with the story yeah and um you know this kind of foreshadows uh different elements of polygamy and so um we're gonna see in when we get to the episodes about the different proposals uh Joseph Smith's engaging in these relationships behind his wife's back and as you said that completely violates what is going to later be written down as DNC 132 and she has actively working to root out polygamy and relief society and while she's doing that many of her closest friends that she believes are working with her are secretly married to her husband and so these details are gonna make you uncomfortable but these are historical facts that we're gonna have to address as we go through these episodes and um he is going to marry women that are people that live in the home that he has a lot of authority over both with regards to the church and the fact that they're living in his home um and um this is another area where we need to note that this is not a marriage and even if you want to claim the later ones or marriages they're not legal and so um even if Joseph Smith had performed some sort of marriage to Fanny it would not be legal in the eyes of the law and it would not have been legal in the eyes of the church if he had not claimed the ceiling keys at this point which I don't think there's any good reason to think he would have um because even if this relationship had started um after the Kirtland Temple in April of 1836 as we just talked in the last Slide the indications are this was something that was going on for months so even if she was kicked out in the you know summer or the spring most people think like early 1836 the odds are this was happening before that and as you said Oliver cowdery uh did not believe it was a marriage he was the second in command of the church he was the one that was called to try to get things settled down if he had any indication that Joseph had a revelation on polygamy he would not be calling it an affair and so no matter what you do here um there's no good way that that fits this with Joseph Smith's later ideas of polygamy or the idea that this could have been a marriage under the new and Everlasting Covenant and that's why I think someone like Patrick Mason who knows all of this would would just say an attempt to explain this away is lipstick on a picture yeah yeah I think so yeah and so this is possibly following the fanny algae relationship there are other rumors with some other members of the church who are engaged in you know extramarital Affairs um Joseph Smith went on a trip to Michigan and while he was gone the church writes this uh article on marriage which would be later added to the DNC in 1835 and it says inasmuch as this Church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication and polygamy we declare that we believe that one man should have one wife and one woman but one husband except in case of death when either is at Liberty to marry again and so this is not a statement you would put in the DNC unless there were rumors persistence uh Joseph Smith's relationships you wouldn't do this you wouldn't put this because of some low-level member having an affair this is something you would put in because there are rumors that are damaging to your church and so I think um Todd Compton in in sacred loneliness he at least at the time he wrote it was a faithful I think he still is but he stated clearly the statement represented in an effort to counteract Scandal and perhaps the diffuse rumors a Fannie alger's marriage possible pregnancy and expulsion so this is again this is not something you put in the Doctrine and Covenants unless it was really hindering your top top people which in this case would Point directly to Joseph Smith because of the fact it also completely shoots down the 1831 apologetic that the church wants to advance yeah because if Joseph is you can't have it both ways you can't say Joseph envisioned polygamy as early as 1831 and also say that in 1835 he publishes in the scriptures that it's bad and forbidden and we've covered that before but I'm just going to make that point again yeah because I'm sure the apologetic would be to say well he had the Rev Revelation 1831 but then the world wasn't ready yet and so they put this in there until the world was right but you know we've talked about at that point then it would happen then it would have the same sort of uh loophole that the Book of Mormon has which would say unless I the Lord command it you know what I mean it wouldn't just like condemn it all the way yeah I mean that's my that's my point too I think the fact that you're going the opposite way tells you yeah that you don't have that conception yet and so um we talked about this earlier so in 1836 um Joseph is going to have the vision in Kirtland Temple to receive the priesthood keys and so um this is going to be later kind of retrofitted to mean ceiling Keys remember that like it was John Hamer was on some podcasts and he was kind of joking about this because we talk about it now as if he got the ceiling keys but he just got keys and so I think John Hammer says something like what do what do Keys open well everything you know they open doors so you can later say the keys or whatever you want them to be but at the time this is still not fleshed out his ceiling and so um this Revelation is now known as DNC 110 it's a shared Vision between Joseph and Oliver and again I want to point out that Joseph claimed to see both Elias and Elijah during this visit in separate Visions even though they're the same person with a different uh translation ones Hebrew and one's Greek um so that's the problem right off the bat for The credibility of the vision but with regard to polygamy it's not obviously necessarily the big problem but as we said typically the church will always associate this with the ceiling Keys being restored but if you read DNC 110 you'll see no missions of ceilings Eternal Marriage polygamy or Celestial marriage um the vision is using the idea of keys in the most generic sense which is then later used to kind of fit whatever Evolution Joseph Smith's theology has and so the church is say it kind of makes this point they say the ceiling of husband and wife for attorney was made possible by the restoration of priesthood keys and ordinances on April 3rd 1836 the Old Testament prophecy Prophet Elijah appeared to Joseph Smith and Oliver cowdery in the Kirtland Temple and restored the priesthood Keys necessary to perform ordinances for the living and the dead including ceilings ceiling families together and so is we've been kind of talking about Fannie there's no way that could have been a Celestial marriage without proper ceiling keys if it occurred prior to this and again there's dating issues with the Fannie relationship but there's also no way that Joseph Smith's 1831 Revelation would have had any connection what is happening in this Kirtland Vision because the idea is simply were not developed yet they're not even developed at this point um for sealing at this point Joseph Smith is getting we talked about this in the priesthood restoration episode this is where Joseph Smith is getting him and Oliver The Authority above everyone else no one else can touch their Authority now because Joseph and Oliver are sharing this Vision to get the keys that they have that they then separate themselves from everyone else as far as Authority goes they're going to then use this later on to kind of retrofit into what they need but at the time they are not talking about sealing families together yeah got it so this one is one I learned from the happiness letter um episode with Jonathan Streeter and Christopher C Smith and this is amazing because this is an 1841 Joseph Smith is starting to ramp up his polygamy and he's going to introduce a very interesting teaching uh that he dictated in his journal so this is again this is not just me making uh you know kind of opinions here this is from November 7th 1841. this is from Joseph's Journal I charged the Saints not to follow the example of the adversary in accusing the Brethren and said if you do not accuse each other God will not accuse you if you have no accuser you will enter Heaven and if you follow the revelations and instructions which gods give you through me I will take you into heaven as my backload if you will not accuse me I will not accuse you if you will throw a cloak of Charity over my sins I will over yours for charity covereth a multitude of sins what many people call sin is not sin I do many things to break down Superstition and I will break it down and so this teaching is amazing because this is happening as rumors are swirling around about Joseph's infidelity since we at this point we have Fanny Algerian he's starting to engage into a system of polygamy there's rumors about people around Joseph with the spiritual wifery and here Joseph Smith is literally telling members if you don't accuse Joseph of sins he's not going to accuse you and so this is like a really good way of completely circumventing the idea of sins and confessions and and you know all sorts of accountability accountability by telling members hey don't you dare accuse me the crap I'm doing and as long as you don't you'll be safe the moment you do though I'm throwing everything you have out to the public and so this is uh yeah The Logical The Logical extension of this it's like if I steal money but nobody accuses me of stealing the money because they don't know then it's not a sin or if I abuse a child but I can make sure the child is too afraid to accuse me or if I want a little action on the side and the woman's okay with it and she's okay not telling her husband no harm no foul no accusation no sin like the the implications of this teaching are are very disturbing they're horrific and to your point yeah I mean like you again I believe a member is going to listen to what you said they're going to say oh my goodness how disrespectful let's say if I want a little bit of action on the side but this quote is telling you if I have an affair with a woman and she doesn't accuse me and I don't accuse her and my wife doesn't know so she can't accuse me that I'm going straight to heaven I mean Joseph Smith is saying that and it's it's wrong even if he didn't engage in those behaviors it's a dangerous Revelation yeah this is going to lead to really dangerous things yeah it's it's problematic okay and so yeah this is like Joseph Smith is flipping morality upside down here to help his own authority and so we're going to talk about this in the next few episodes about Joseph's proposals to to women but here Joseph Smith is flipping Doctrine upside down to suit his personal needs the idea if you have no accuser you will enter Heaven is a terrible Theology and is explicitly telling people have been wrong to keep quiet or else Joseph Smith is going to air their dirty laundry in a guaranteed Mutual destruction and so uh this is just you know remember God uh sorry Joseph Smith is telling members that his word is God's word by declaring if you follow the revelations and instructions which God gives you through me I will take you into heaven as my backload and so you're going to see this theme over and over as Joseph proposes to these women he wants to make sure that the moment you believe he's a prophet that then at that point Joseph has ultimate authority over you and he's constantly giving these teachings which is to say basically if God tells you to marry and have sex with me and you do it it can't be a sin because you got it through me and I got it through God and this is something we're going to talk about a lot in the happiness letter because these ideas are used explicitly in his writings in the voice of God to pressure young women to marry him and so as we talked about the beginning of this episode These are tactics that Joseph Smith is not unique to using but other religious leaders who are initiating sexual relationships with their followers use and so the idea here is that the only person that can speak for God as the leader and that whatever he says is divinely approved that didn't start with Joseph Smith and it's continued through all of the self-proclaimed prophets we talked about earlier and that's why people believed Warren Jeffs in married and had sex with him because of the fact that Warren Jeffs is using the exact same teachings Joseph Smith is using here to claim Divine authority to do whatever you want as long as no one accuses you of sin it's it's so horrific and yep yep yep yeah totally okay so now we get introduced this word that I didn't learn I don't know until probably 2001 2002 this word polyandry that that most Mormons will have never heard of but it's one of the most important words and it's different than polygamy right yeah and so polyandry um is gonna be one that they're gonna talk about in the essay as well and so this is why I had no idea about this until four years ago when I first started doing the Deep diving so the church's essay says following his marriage to Louis sabieman and before he married other single women Joseph Smith was sealed to a number of women who were already married and I just want to point out that the churches in this essay they're really specific on numbers except for when it comes to Joseph Smith they're always vague about the numbers because they don't want to say it um Todd Compton puts the number of women um that were polyandrous to 11. and Paulie Andrews polyandry means that you're marrying a woman who is already married to another man um whereas polygamy is when you marry multiple women and so is marrying multiple women have you heard I've heard that too I've heard that too so I don't know I'm sure there's some technical difference in the two I actually heard that as well from um dear polygamy episodes and I don't know it's so easy and I forget I learn it and then I forget so yeah I do too so I'm looking up polygyny a pattern of mating in which a male animal has more than one female mate so that's polygeny g-y-n-y so p-o-l-y-g-y-n-y and then if I look up polygamy it says a pattern of mating in which an animal has more than one mate so it sounds like technically the term polygamy is is a is just saying multiple mates yeah halogeny means multiple women polyandry means multiple men okay so anyway I'm not trying to correct you that's just what I what I read yeah so polyandra I guess must be from the perspective of the female having more than 100 so yeah and so in this case um you know Joseph Smith is going to marry nine of us of the first 12 women he married were polyandrous and so that's from Todd Compton um and from in sacred loneliness and so while the church can't Church says a number Todd Compton can tell you you know between uh nine and you know 11 and um and nine of the first 12 uh of them were poly Anderson so the church provides a few reasons for why Joseph would marry women who are already married and we'll just cover them here um they say there are several explanations possible explanations for this practice these ceilings may have provided a way to create an eternal Bond or link between Joseph's family and other families within the church um Joseph Smith ceilings to women already uh ceilings to women already married may have been an early version of linking one family to another and Nauvoo most if not all of the first husbands seem to have continued living in the same household with their wives during Joseph's Lifetime and complains about these ceilings with Joseph Smith are virtually absent from the documentary record so I'm going to say and this is just me kind of as learner two things um once you read Doctrine and Covenant and you're probably going to talk about this later so we can touch on it briefly if that's the case but just in my fresh eyes reaction uh we'll read later in Doctrine and Covenants 132 this use of the word virgin that that the woman has to be a virgin to qualify for uh Celestial marriage if you want to use that term or the new and Everlasting Covenant so automatically we're going to assume that women who already married to men aren't virgins so there's no way to square polyandry with a fair reading I think of DNC 132 the only other thing I'll say is why would Joseph be marrying women of other men's wives there's probably a power element to it just like when David koresh was was trying to have sex with with the wives of of men in his congregation there's probably a power element to it there's probably also a plausible deniability element to it because if a pregnancy does erupt it's not a single you know teenage girl it's it's a woman who's already married to another man and so that pregnancy isn't going to be a scandal now forgive me if you touch on that later I'm just giving my cold immediate reaction now I do and those are actually great points because those are some of the things I thought of as well so that's I'm glad you brought them up yeah okay all right yeah so yeah kind of going touching on what you just said like so the one thing I really don't like is that the church will say and you hear this from a lot of apologists today you hear this from a lot of members they'll say that one of the main purposes of polygamy and plural marriage was to intended to link families together and um I would point out if you're going to make that argument it's got to be consistent and so you look at it and you go why did so many of Joseph's wives have to be young girls and other men's wives and the church practiced what was known as the law of adoption uh which Joseph Smith also practiced on occasion which allowed men to be sealed to other men as adopted Sons so if the purpose of polygamy or polyandry was to link families together why couldn't Joseph have just sealed the men the husbands to him directly rather than sealing himself to their wives or daughters because the moment that Joseph seals these women or girls to himself as Celestial daughters or I'm so sorry let me rephrase that Joseph could have sealed the girls to himself as Celestial daughters rather than wives which would allow them to have found worthy husbands that they actually loved to spend the eternities with but now he's removing them from a normal social life and preventing them from finding actual true love with some of their own age because he's taking them as these you know kind of polygamous Celestial Eternal wives and yeah you know the the thing that we're really Falls flat for me this idea that it's about creating dynasties is that um if it was really all about crew eternally attorney only ceilings that were intended to eternally join friends and families together in the afterlife there would be no need for the secrecy and lying Joseph could have said Emma I love the kimballs and I want to be connected with them for eternity God revealed it to me an ordinance that will make this possible that would require no lying no denying no sex no writing Secret Letters and and you know there's a letter where it says when Emma comes you cannot be safe burn this letter as soon as you read it and I know from an apologetic standpoint they say that's because Joseph was on the run from the law and and so that would make her unsafe like in a literal sense um but there's also other letters where he tells women to burn them the point is if you're trying to make this you know about dynasties and you'll hear this today from a lot of apologists it doesn't work and um this is another area where Joseph Smith is going to marry multiple pairs of sisters if it's about creating dynasties why is he marrying pairs of sisters and having sex with them yeah he can marry one one dog he can marry one girl and you know as we said earlier if if the law of adoption was something Joseph was believed was it was a real thing he could have sealed himself to um Heber Kimball as an adopted son and then Hebrew stayed married to his you know to what she did but then he also Helen Mark Kimball who we'll talk about later could have then had a real life and had to any need to be married to Joseph because they'd be sealed together it's all of this is a mess when you actually just take a step back and look at what they were doing this this apologetic is is just not it's not feasible and I would argue it's out of necessity and it's very misleading yeah yeah it just reminds me of of the foreshadowing Joseph does to his own practice about using David and Solomon as a justification for whoredoms that's that that's a you know if you look just look at Occam's razor what's more likely is it more likely that God is working in this weird Twisted way or just that or the Joseph and others are trying to justify you know bad bad sexual behavior that just seems more likely the in another piece of evidence that in my mind validates the sex argument instead of the dynasty argument it's just that we don't practice dynastic ceilings anymore so if dynastic ceilings were super important back then then we'd still be doing them but we're not doing them so again that's just another piece of evidence on the on the balance of this being more about sex than about God in my in my I mean yeah I mean at least it you know because a lot of people say oh it's not just about sex and I know there's more to it than sex I think what you said earlier about power there's instances where Joseph Smith and we'll get to them as we go like with Hebrew C Kimball he asked Hebrew for his wife in Hebrew C Kimball offers him his wife which we'll get to that that's a horrific one because the essay cites is this is this big Grand thing inspirational story yeah it's a horrible story but the point is um once Heber was willing to give Joseph his wife Hebrew is now complicit in polygamy so Joseph then says I don't want your wife and then depending on how you read the story either Hebrew offers the uh his daughter to Joseph instead or Joseph asks I'm sorry excuse me we don't know um for sure which it is but the point is once you get someone complicit in polygamy uh then they as we talk about the no sin no accuser you're a lot less into a lot less likely to accuse Joseph once you're practicing it and so there's all of these different aspects of polygamy whether it's sex power um there's one account where he marries these two I think it's a pair of sisters that have like a trust to them and there's a lot of controversy on that whether or not Joseph was in charge of the money there's a lot of things going on and so there is more it's more than just sex but the fact is you know sex is at least an element because Joseph could have voided could have avoided sex with the women by using the law of adoption which he was using elsewhere if he was not doing this in part to have sex with young young women yeah and also the fact that the church hid this from us for for however long is just another example of why it's problematic if it weren't problematic they wouldn't have hit for hit or from us they would have been proud of it and taught it to us all yeah from the from the from the very beginning 100 yeah so uh I talked about earlier this essay is really designed to protect Joseph Smith Above All Else and so um the essay says these ceilings may also be explained by Joseph's reluctance to enter into plural marriage because of the sorrow it bring to his wife Emma he may have believed that ceilings to married women would comply with the Lord's commandment without requiring him to have normal marriage relationships this could explain why according to Lorenzo Snow the angel reprimanded Joseph for having demurred on plural plural marriage even after he had entered into the practice after this rebuke according to this interpretation Joseph returned primarily to ceilings with single women and so what's really interesting here is that the church wants to portray The Fanny Algeria relationship as a marriage because it included sex but then they turned around here to say Joseph avoided sex to save his wife Emma the sorrow polygamy would bring her so the problem is Joseph Smith was already having sex with other women at the time so I'm not sure how much more Sarah would be spared for Emma knowing he wasn't having sex with every single one of them like this is just it's one of those word games that they play in these essays to try to keep you from really just looking at the most obvious conclusions here which is that Joseph Smith um was likely having sex with women and was using biblical uh references to justify it later on and we see this with a lot of other things he does we talked about how he creates you know the priesthood out of necessity for Authority the first Vision all these things are being created using sources around him and and religious texts like the Bible and yet here we're kind of told oh no you know it's all in the up and up but it's just it's not is I don't know how to say it because there are Joseph Smith could have avoided this and and the last thing I'll point out there is is they say in the essay Joseph thought he could get around by just marrying already married women he's a prophet of God you think he could just say hey God if I marry this already married woman will disqualify a guy be like yeah no so that then completely Waters down his abilities a prophet as well like they're like oh Joseph Smith thought he could get around it by marrying 11 or I think nine of the first 11 and he didn't know I mean it's just it makes Joseph Smith seem really powerless as a prophet as well and if I could just check in here for a second like there there are these times where we start out talking about any of these topics where I'm like well let's dig into it because there's a lot here once you get into the Weeds on this there's always this moment whether it's book of Abraham or polyandry where I'm just like I can't believe we're actually having this discussion yeah like he's sleeping with 14 year olds other men's wives and we're all trying to like analyze this weed here and this weed here too but if you just zoom back out a little bit this is just outrageous that we're even having this discussion at all um but but sometimes apologetics leads you to the weeds or the trees that that you know in a way that that makes you forget to look at the forest and the forest is that this is just awful even if it's just dynastic ceilings women are just again being traded around like cattle their their value is diluted um yeah anyway so and it's fair and I think one thing I'd point out is I I know we'll get to Helen Marr and my goodness what's the other the other girl's name that was 14 is like Mary Elizabeth Nancy Winchester I think and um so there's you know we the thing with the 14 the two 14 year old marriages is we don't know if Joseph slept with them but at the same time under the the laws of dnc-132 Not only was he was he allowed to but he was supposed to raise up seeds so yeah that's a mess but yeah we don't know that he that he slept with him but yeah there's a you read this sometimes and when we get to the like the proposals and the happiness letter you're like if you saw this and it was about anyone else you'd be like this guy is absolutely yeah making it up and yet we're sitting here we're gonna do episodes on it because of the fact that the Apologetics are so thick about it so and belief is so resilient and we've been conditioned to view Joseph as literally you know the the most righteous person next to Jesus that was another powerful moment in my interview with Patrick Mason he's like I reject the teaching that Joseph Smith is the more righteous is is the most righteous person next to to Jesus Christ he said I think Mother Teresa was way more righteous than Joseph Smith and yeah I mean yeah yeah we yeah you know we go through it all the time and we'll go through we'll we'll get we got a lot more to go and so not just with polygamy but there's just so many instances that at some point it's just like yeah if this was anyone else you would walk away a long time ago and um and and belief is resilient and so um another essay another possibility that the church's essay gives for the polyandrous marriages was to say another possibility is that in an era when lifespans were shorter than they are today faithful woman felt an urgency to be sealed by priesthood Authority several of these women were married either to non-mormons or former Mormon and more than one of the women later expressed unhappiness in their present marriages living in living in a time when divorce was difficult to obtain these women may have believed a ceiling to Joseph Smith would give them blessings they might not otherwise receive in the next life and this paragraph is particularly problematic because the church is framing polyandries if Joseph is somehow saving these women from Bad situations and the reality is that many of these women were married to faithful active members of the church they kind of used these weasel words like more than one of the women later expressed unhappiness well we have 11 polyandrous marriages so how many is more than one is it two is it three um and and some of them were married two faithful members and so only three of Joseph Smith's polyandra's wives were not married to members of the church it means at least eight you know eight of the eleven were married to members of the church and so some of these women were married to leaders of the church and one of them was married to an apostle that were sealed to Joseph Smith so the church is kind of using these very vague terms to try to avoid the fact that Joseph Smith is marrying um women who are already married to members of the church and and so as we'll get into it in the next slide this creates a lot of just huge problems that the church doesn't really have an they really don't have an answer for today if you ask them today they'll just say it'll all work out in the end they're yeah this is where it gets really bad well let's go ahead and jump to that next slide yeah so if we are to believe the ceiling power of Joseph Smith in the church then Joseph Smith taking polyandra's wives creates massive problems for the eternities because Joseph Smith is marrying women that were already married to faithful members of the church the kids of that woman and the first husband would then be sealed to Joseph Smith and not to their father and so even if you work under the premise that Joseph wasn't having sex with these wives he would still be taking the father's kids away for eternity and would then have the wife to popular planets with in the eternities and so um I like putting in my per my where I'm at now so I'm I'm a member of record I'm I've been through the temple I have the priest and all that stuff but I am no longer a Believer and so under the church's Doctrine and we'll get into this as we go because this is this is Doctrine this is not me making it up um because I no longer believe in the church under the church's Doctrine my wife who is still a Believer is going to be paired up with another guy for the eternities now if he gets sealed to her in the eternities um then my kid would technically under church doctrine be sealed to this other guy for eternity and um in the eternities even if I stay married to my wife until we die and I remain anomaly versus Humans believer under church doctrine she would be given to another that's the phrase I'm not making this up she'd be given to another man and then they would have eternal sex and she wouldn't really have a choice to know or she'd be destroyed we'll get into that as well and my kid would be sealed to this guy no matter who he is and taken away from me because I don't believe in the Mormon framing of God God and so this really hits home for me in a personal way even though I'm not obviously participating in polyandry or polygamy but the fact is this hangs over my head because I have a family member of my wife who is a member of the church and so this is something that holds over my head and we talked about this at the beginning the women can say yeah this won't impact me because we don't have to practice it but the fact is this is still Doctrine for the eternities and so these implications are real and so in this case going back to Joseph Smith's time he is taking the wives of men who are Faithfully believing in him as a prophet and these men are going to lose their children for eternity um to Joseph Smith and then he is going to because they'll talk about how in the essay they talk about how the women live with with the husbands and they'll say they remain with their husbands so maybe Joseph isn't having sex with them we don't know I mean under the doctrine he certainly is allowed to and there's some references he had sex with at least one of them but the reality is Joseph Smith is almost like earmarking these women saying once you die yeah then for the attorneys we will be having sex to popular plants like these implications are real and that's why when you ask leaders of the church they'll just say we don't have all the answers it'll all work out in the end except it's right there this is what's supposed to happen and I just yeah it's horrifying yeah it bothers me on a personal level because of my situation and to think of these people having to go through in real time I can't even imagine yeah and and if I can just kind of give my Observer uh comments it's like whenever it's whenever it's plugging me after Joseph Smith there's zero question that sex was involved nobody asks nobody's ever asked once that I'm aware of did Brigham Young have sex with his 55 wives why wouldn't he have like all the polygamy after Joseph involves sex so it should be suspicious I think to people to be saying why is it that we're always like questioning whether sex was involved only when it's Joseph and it's because number one he's the founder number two we're taught that he's the most righteous person is Jesus and three we know that he was denying it and hiding it and lying about it and that it was withheld from us we all kind of somehow knew as Mormons growing up the Brigham was a polygamous but somehow we never really knew about Joseph and that's a problem of informed consent or deception and you know that it should be clear to us why we keep trying to make sexual exceptions for Joseph Smith especially in the case of polyandry the only other point I'll make is kind of a confirmatory point my my late sister who passed away who by the way lived in Chicago for much of her adult life she married a non-member when she was inactive and and then later she became Super Active and raised her kids in the church she lived in Lake Zurich in Cary areas up in the northwest suburbs but I was always sad by the fact that because her husband he smoked so he was never a member she always looked at him as a temporary husband and that and and I even remember her telling me you know I'm kind of ready to go to the next life because you know I'm not going to divorce my husband because I love him and he's a good father to my kids but he's not the man I'm going to end up with in heaven and so she was almost ready to go to the next life to meet who her Eternal companion would be and Maya was my my thought always was What a Sad Heaven that God makes where we're all told that this eternal family concept is so beautiful but really what it's doing is it's basically making my my non-mormon brother-in-law inferior and kind of lesser than and then it's making my sister not really cling to him and view him as her one and only but it's making her look forward to this future potentially fictitious man who by the way may be married to some other woman or sealed to some other woman within a Mormon context because that's how it's going to work there's going to be more for polygamy or Celestial marriage to even exist in the afterlife it's going to mean that there are more women in the social Kingdom than men and so more likely than not my sister is going to be sealed to some man who she doesn't know who's who's going to be already sealed to some other woman and as you said all of her children if they remain faithful which none of them have by the way if they were to have remained faithful they're all going to be sealed to this other man that was never their dad it's just so and you don't need to comment on this it's just it's just problematic in all the ways yep yeah and the last thing I point out what you'd point out earlier is to me there is I so you can't know this for sure but I think the the best reason that Joseph Smith would have started by marrying already married women you had mentioned this earlier is that if you were to get one of them pregnant it would be very easy to say like oh yeah I'm having a kid congratulations and I think it doesn't get the prophet in trouble yeah if there's a person Smith safe and I don't know you know I we'll get into this as we go I don't really believe Joe Joseph had John C benef forming abortions I I don't really there's no evidence for any of that um but you know people back then were learning a little bit more about like the Rhythm method and there were condoms and stuff I'm just saying like it could have been that Joseph Smith started to get more comfortable with what he was doing that he kind of figured he he knew how to not get women I don't know but that would make a lot more sense than just saying that he thought he was finding a loophole with God because that just makes no sense so yeah um that was just confirming what you said earlier but this is to me where things get really kind of like fascinating because um I had no idea you know as a member how DNC 132 was produced and so the Saints book kind of talks about it and they say on the morning of July 12th this will be 1843 William Clayton was in Joseph's office when the prophet in Hiram entered if you will write the Revelation higher until Joseph I will take it and read it to Emma and I believe I can convince her of its truth and you will hear of here after a piece you do not know Emma as well as I do Joseph said that spring and summer he had been sealed to additional women including a few whom Emma had personally selected yet helping Joseph Chu's wives had not made obeying the principle easy for Emma the doctrine is so plain Hiram said I can convince any reasonable man or woman of its truth Purity and Heavenly Origins we will see Joseph said he asked William to take out paper and write as he spoke the word of the Lord much of the Revelation was already known to Joseph it described the new and Everlasting Covenant of Eternal Marriage along with Associated blessings and Promises it all also revealed the terms governing plural marriage which Joseph had learned while translating the Bible in 1831 the remainder of the Revelation was new counsel for him and Emma addressing their questions and current struggles with plural marriage if it's okay Mike I'm just going to give a quick reaction yeah number one like again this defies the idea that Joseph got the Revelation in 1831 like two it provides a more secular boots on the ground explanation it's like Emma's not down with this um you know so we gotta it provides a motivation for why finally it was revealed and then third it kind of implicates Hiram uh and you always kind of think of Hiram as this kind of noble loyal brother but the fact that he can make a statement like that I can convince any reasonable man or woman of its truth Purity and Heavenly origin I'm like really I think there's a lot of men and women out there who he would never be able to successfully convince and I think that's demonstrated by the fact that Joseph didn't tell so many of of his own leaders including people like Sydney Rigdon or others he was afraid to tell them because it you know so I think Hiram was naive and in many ways complicit those are some of the things that come to my mind yeah I think he was naive I mean you know like I said if you read I remember reading Saints I think Saints talked about a little bit and there's other stories where they talk about all these early members like Brigham Young and Hiram and how much they hated it and then they cried and then all of a sudden they had the confirmation from God that it was real and then they were just gung-ho on it and I just I feel like I you know a lot of these people were True Believers and Joseph Smith they believed he spoke for God and so maybe that's why they felt so naive about their ability to convince others but yeah it's it's um and you know in all honesty it's probably a lot easier to convince a guy um to do it than obviously a woman because you know it puts a lot more uh yeah you know yeah we you know it's very beneficial for men as opposed to women and so um you know we've pointed this out a few times this episode now what happened in 1831 is completely different from what is happening in Nauvoo um Joseph was taking about talking about taking the lamanite women as wiser concubines to make their posterity white Delights and just um that phrasing is based on the Book of Mormon which does it you could turn Native Americans whiter by bringing them to Christ can we talked all about that in the race and the scriptures and Mormonism episodes and you know just as with the essay there's a reason why Saints is not explaining what that 1831 Revelation was because it's based on some very controversial and now pretty much disavowed teachings and you know scientifically wrong teachings about skin color um and then the other big entry is that Saints doesn't tell the reader that at this point Joseph Smith is already married to 20 other women with Emma being completely unaware of most of them and then Saints make sure to indicate that including a few whom Emma had personally selected but what they don't tell you is that Emma chose she chose Four Women for Joseph to marry and of those four two of them were a pair of sisters named Emily and Eliza Partridge that Joseph was already married to and he had to have a secondary sham wedding um in front of Emma so that she didn't know he had already married them behind her back and so this is just another area and obviously the Saints book I did a long time ago for the first one the chapter chapter but it's a very um distorted of history and and there's a lot of areas where the church is intentionally um misleading with the history and this is another case where they're using very careful wordings so that if you came to them they'd say we weren't lying but they're being they're using words that are very misleading if you know the history and in this case um there's a lot of issues with how they frame the production of DNC 132 against the historical record okay all right and so this is where it gets cool to me um so Hiram is going to ask Joseph to dictate the revelation we know this um the dictation process to me is just super fascinating given what we talked about way back when in the early episodes on the Book of Mormon dictation so William Clayton who recorded the Revelation wrote this note about the process he said Hiram very urgently requested Joseph to write the Revelation by means of the urum and thumbem but Joseph in reply said he did not need to for he knew the Revelation perfectly from beginning to end so to be clear on this Hiram is asking Joseph to use the peep sheer stone that he used to translate The Book of Mormon with and that he used to get his early Revelations so that would be a direct Revelation from God but instead Joseph Smith is telling him no I don't need it because I know it so perfectly from beginning to end I think that is one of the most important aspects of this is that Joseph Smith Hiram believes that Joseph can get words through the stone and Joseph is saying I don't even need it that's how well I know it yeah yeah and I think you make the point I was gonna I was gonna just ask well how many words is DNC 132 and that's on the next slide yeah and so this is so important so DNC 132 is over 3 200 words long there is no way anyone could retain it and memorize a 3200 word revelation in the way Joseph Smith claims to hire him by Joseph Smith's own claims this is a revelation that Joseph was given years earlier that was never recorded but as we mentioned in the Book of Mormon authorship overview a typical scribe could legibly write about 1200 words per hour that means the dictation of the of DNC 132 was the same equivalent to an entire day of translating The Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith was able to do it without any Source material or the use of the Seer Stone the dictation of dnc-132 is made in the language and the same you know the voice of God and in the language of the King James Bible just as the Book of Mormon is it also includes many of the similar phrases that occur in Joseph's other Revelations such as I am the Lord thy God behold I am off on Omega Etc so it's not so much that the exact phrase is an overall style but what I'm saying is if you compare this to Joseph Smith's other kind of you know Revelations they wrote himself it becomes pretty clear just how gifted Joseph was at being able to speak in a normal way versus being able to speak in the voice of God and to be able to do it in a setting uh where Joseph Smith is able to Riff Off 3 200 words off the cuff I think really Cuts against the idea that a lot of people have which is that Joseph could not possibly have written the Book of Mormon himself because here he's writing an entire day's worth in the Book of Mormon by just being asked by Hiram to do it and he's doing without the aid of anything else yeah you're right I think that's a great point yeah I think that to me is one of the biggest takeaways of this whole thing and so fascinating yeah and so like I said it might not seem like a big deal until you realize about the implications of Joseph Smith's abilities to write scripture in the name of God um this was serious this is one of those one of those aha moments for me when really doing the polygamy Deep dive was just the ability that Joseph Smith had to be able to produce so much text and the voice of God to do so much in with Biblical references um and to speak in that language and you know like I said you know apologists argue that Joseph was given the Revelation so many times they knew it by heart but the reality is DNC 132 contains references to issues with Emma that are happening right around the time DNC 132 is dictated so you'd have to then argue that part of it was ancient like 10 years old and part of it was brand new and that just leads to a lot of problems but as we have said earlier we're going to have a whole episode on that and so we're going to kind of stop this episode now because we're gonna go right into DNC 132 on the next episode I love it well that's a nice little uh Easter egg or surprise finish that we're not you know and that's why these episodes again are so important because they build on each other and that's a fun that's a fun sort of illustration of a concept that we've discussed earlier in terms of the Book of Mormon news translation yeah all right so what's the closing slide yeah so this is just going to be for those of you who made it this far and are curious how we're going to split this up so we're planning four more episodes on polygamy um I think they're going to be in this order they might switch a little bit but we're gonna have one episode that focuses on the text of DNC 132 and how that relates to how it was actually practiced uh we're gonna have an entire episode on Joseph Smith's proposals and kind of the patterns that emerge in those proposals to the women in the church we're going to have an episode that's going to look at the happiness letter that Joseph Smith wrote to Nancy Rigdon and then we're going to have a final episode that's going to look at polygamy after Joseph Smith along with the implications for how polygamy is today and we're going to cover a lot more of apologetics in that episode um the Apologetics in that episode will kind of overarch all the other ones so that we can kind of cover all of that at the end so we can make sure we're getting everything in there yeah not to poison the well but as I'm trying to anticipate we've we've covered DNC 132 with Senator Tanner um and uh but there's all this new stuff and it's always worth learning multiple times just for memory's sake but the language in DNC 132 is so problematic so that's going to be a great episode yeah Joseph Smith's proposals and patterns just how coercive uh he was with with people is is really disturbing and then the happiness letter is for sure one of the most disturbing Twisted parts of the entire restoration as far as I'm concerned shout out hap tip hat tip to Jonathan Streeter for his yeah his work on that yeah and then post post Joseph Smith polygamy I've got polygamy in my own family my great my great grandparents were polygamists my my grandma's parents and I've discovered really disturbing things about that just in the past few weeks and months so Mike it looks like we've got some good stuff coming up yeah we got lots of cover and um I think all four episodes after today will fit into this one so they really will kind of build on each other so hopefully if you're if you're watching this keep you know watch them in the order we do them and I think um like I said it won't get easier but it'll also I think help us understand it a lot better so it'll be good good that way all right Mike thanks so much for what you do with LDS discussions yep thanks everybody and uh see you soon everybody else thanks so much for joining us today on Mormon stories um again reminder that you can watch all of these episodes in an isolated series either on Spotify audio or video on YouTube as a playlist under the Mormon stories podcast page you can go to playlists or wherever you consume your podcast you can just search the LDS discussions podcast episode we want to thank Mike and remind you all you can go to ldsdiscussions.com for the essays that are well cited and you can read much of the source materials there we want to thank everyone for their support we hope you enjoyed this series please give us feedback either as comments on YouTube or comments on the blog or comments wherever on Facebook wherever you consume this these episodes if you like or 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