Joseph Smith's Plural Marriage Proposals Pt 2
Original Air Date: 2022-11-03
This detailed summary covers the episode titled "Joseph Smith's Plural Marriage Proposals Pt. 2," featuring host John Dehlin, Mike from LDS Discussions, and guest Alicia (Faith Unraveled). The video analyzes historical accounts of Joseph Smith’s polygamy, specifically focusing on the Lawrence sisters, Helen Mar Kimball, and Sarah Ann Whitney, while critiquing the apologetic narratives found in the church's Gospel Topics Essays.
Common Patterns in Proposals
The hosts identify specific tactics Joseph Smith used to secure plural wives, arguing these behaviors constitute coercion and grooming 1, 2. Key patterns include:
The Lawrence Sisters (Maria and Sarah)
Joseph Smith became the legal guardian of Maria (19) and Sarah (16) Lawrence after their father died, taking control of their estate and moving them into his home 6, 7.
Helen Mar Kimball
The marriage to 14-year-old Helen Mar Kimball is described as perhaps the most famous and controversial due to her age 11.
Sarah Ann Whitney
Smith married 17-year-old Sarah Ann Whitney after convincing her parents using the "angel with a drawn sword" story and promises of eternal life 4.
Emma Smith and the Relief Society
The video highlights Emma Smith’s attempts to use the Relief Society to root out "spiritual wifery" and polygamy, unaware of the extent of her husband's involvement 24.
Conclusion: Grooming and Unrighteous Dominion
Mike concludes that Joseph Smith's behavior fits the modern definition of grooming: building trust with a family to lower inhibitions and access a child for sexual purposes 2. The episode ends by noting the irony of Doctrine and Covenants 121:39, suggesting that Smith himself exemplified the warning that almost all men exercise "unrighteous dominion" once they gain a little authority 28.
Analogy:The hosts describe the situation with the "sham marriage" of Sarah Ann Whitney to Joseph Kingsbury as a form of elaborate theater or a "cover-up." Imagine a CEO who is secretly embezzling funds (polygamy) and, to hide it from the auditors (the public/Emma), he hires an actor (Kingsbury) to pretend to be the accountant in charge of those funds. The CEO pays the actor not with money, but with a promise of a future promotion that the CEO has no real authority to grant (sealing to a deceased wife). The entire arrangement is a staged performance designed solely to protect the person in power from the consequences of their actions.
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hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Mormon stories podcast LDS discussions Edition I am John delin your host for today today we are covering a very important topic in a series today we're covering part two of our discussion of Joseph Smith's plural marriage proposals it's I believe part four in our uh series on polygamy within this broader uh conversation with Mike from LDS discussions about more mature's truth claims to um to uh just give you a couple house cleaning items the essay that we're going to be covering comes from this amazing website ldsdiscussions.com that our friend Mike has put together uh where he discusses and and tries in in the most dispassionate and neutral way possible tries to provide evidence regarding Mormon church truth claims the essay for today can be found at ldsdiscussions.com polygamy Dash proposals again this is part two on this topic we also just want to remind everyone that if you want to watch or listen to the LDS discussions series independent of the Mormon stories podcast feed you can go to Spotify where you can listen to and or view all of these LDS discussions episodes in sequence there you can also go to the Mormon stories podcast YouTube channel and under the playlist LDS discussions you can see the videos all there listed in sequence we're up to episode number 27 I believe um and so that's what we're here to do today and we've got back with us Mike hey Mike welcome back how's it going everyone it's good to be back thanks for joining us Mike thanks and we're super grateful to have Alicia back with us as well who is known as faith unraveled on tick tock welcome back Alicia great to see you guys thanks for having me and Alicia you were here in Utah just last week and we got to hang out a little bit more that was fun yeah sorry we didn't see you Mike yeah I'm not I've never been to Utah how about that foreign it looks beautiful but I've never been out there so one day I will get out there well we'll definitely plan a trip out if you're gonna be there Mike yeah I want to it looks beautiful I just uh I've never for whatever reason just never made my way actually as a quick side note we were on a vacation there when I was a kid my dad had a work trip there so we drove and we got uh our car broke down in Nebraska and it was during Buffalo Bill days and it was like 110 degrees outside and it was we had a Subaru so they couldn't get a fix for like four days so by the time they got it fixed we just went back home so I was supposed to go to Utah never made it so there you go it wasn't meant to be at the time I guess we're going to bring you here brother we're going to bring you here soon one day I'll get there so many great people in Utah that's such great Community there I love it it looks great all right so let's go ahead and jump in with a recap of the mini series on polygamy so far Mike take it away yeah so originally we had five episodes planned and now we've upped it to six because this episode needed to be split into two just because we wanted to make sure we covered some of these accounts with enough detail to make them give enough context on them so we wanted to split it so now we have six episodes so this is now four out of six um in our previous three episodes we covered um kind of the timeline of Joseph Smith's polygamy how that impacts the production of DNC 132 because that is not written until 1843 which is actually going to be after pretty much every account we're covering in these two episodes that we're doing right now um we looked at how the 1831 Revelation on polygamy that the church kind of claims as when this uh when DNC 132 was first first given we looked at what it actually entailed and why it has absolutely nothing to do with what we now have as DNC 132 but was instead a claimed Revelation from Joseph Smith that the men were to take um the Native American women as wives and concubines in order to make their children uh White and Delight some those are the actual words I'm not trying to be pejorative there we talked about how Joseph Smith produced the entirety of dnc-132 in one sitting without the help of even claiming to use the peep sheer Stone even though Hyrum had requested Joseph use it and just how important that that tidbit is to Joseph's ability to create scripture without the use of any AIDS and to do it in a short time span kind of a nod back to our Book of Mormon authorship episode uh we look we looked at the wording of DNC 132 and the implications it has um for the the implications that the Revelation has for believing members today mixed Faith marriages and how Joseph Smith broke most of those rules in dnc-132 in the accounts we're talking about in these episodes um and so now in our last episode we began talking about um some of the uh polygamous and polyandrus um proposals that Joseph Smith had made um to his followers um who were typically younger girls that were living in his household and other things that we covered as far as some of the patterns and Alicia did you want to make a comment uh in response to this slide yeah so you mentioned the wording of DNC 132 and I know we spoke about this in detail um a couple of weeks ago so if you haven't listened to the episode on dnc132 that one is really good goes into a lot of detail and dissecting that section of scripture um there's some very specific language used in that section that I think is really relevant to our episode today so I just wanted to cover a couple of things from DNC 132 if that's okay please so there's three words that I want to talk about so um the first one is the word given in this case used to describe how women or girls are moved through this system of plural marriage which to me really indicates the role that women play in the new and Everlasting Covenant which is basically property and this kind of verbiage is used in multiple places throughout DNC 132 and is also used by the women themselves as they reflect back on their experiences in becoming plural wise and I think this is why it's super important to just kind of reflect on this before we dig into our episode today because they will often say later like giving their testimony about plural marriage that they were given by God to the person or in the case of like the Partridge sisters or the Lawrence sisters that they were given to Joseph by Emma um and not only does it read that these women will be given but that Joseph will have the power to give women to other men because of his priesthood power so in verse 44 of DNC 132 it says I reveal it unto you my servant Joseph then shall you have power by the power of the Holy priesthood to take her and give her unto him that hath not committed adultery but hath been faithful for he shall be made ruler over many so everyone will draw their own conclusions here but in my mind this is Inc is consistent with our modern definition of trafficking right so here's why I think this is important to talk about before today's episode from a faithful perspective the perspective of a believing member often people will say well the women had a testimony of plural marriage look they talked about it later in their life look at Helen's you know writings and exponent and she talks about you know this principle and how she you know it was commanded by God but if we're going to take that perspective we also really have to accept this notion that they as women felt that they were subject to the priesthood and that they could be given as property like that was part of their testimony and isn't that just a sad reality and if God is so in changing is that how he still views women today um that we're just something that can be taken and given away um I think this is super important to consider um the other words and I'm sorry this is a little shorter but the word destroyed it's used 11 times in 132 when we talk about choice I think we have to look at the parameters around this choice if the alternative to accepting polygamy is that your family won't that the Gates of Heaven will be closed to them that your whole family isn't going to have salvation if you don't make the right decision here um super important is that really something we would consider agency and then the last word worth reviewing for our episode today because we are going to talk about whether or not Joseph Smith might have had sex with all of these women and uh young girls that he took under his power um I just want to point out the word seed that's used in Doctrine and Covenants multiple times there are 31 references to Abraham and we talk they talk about Abraham and and sacrificing being willing to sacrifice his son and they also talk about Abraham being given Hagar by his wife Sarah so when you look at those verses it talks about procreation it talks about you know multiplying his seed in this life and in the next so I think it's important to consider that whether they had sex or not we're going to go into more detail about that in the slides um that might put together but I think it's important to remember that that was like a quintessential part of this doctrine that was that was sort of the whole purpose of it right so um anyway those are just the three things that I wanted to hone in on before we get started today though and if I if I could just quickly respond to Alicia that was wonderful number one yeah so many apologists now including Brian Hales want to really make hay of the fact that Joseph Smith Never Had well that there isn't like video camera ever and evidence of Joseph Smith having sex with his polygamous wives but yes that that point about seed is just so crucial because it it it reinforces the point made in the Book of Mormon itself which says basically God May command polygamy but it will it will always be about raising up a righteous seed which implies sex or insemination basically so that's a great Point Alicia and then also I'll just say in my own personal testimony I read an account of my great-grandmother so my grandma's mom who is the third wife of of uh of four polygamous wives with my great-grandpa when she bore her testimony about polygamy saying that she had a testimony of it she didn't say it was because polygamy made her happy she didn't say it was because her life was awesome or she was treated well because she wasn't um she basically said I have a testimony of polygamy because I believe that um unlike all my other cousins and siblings who didn't practice the principle I believe I'm going to be in the Celestial Kingdom with my dad who was an apostle because I lived the principal so she's basically saying she she retained a testimony of polygamy but only because she knew it would get her to a higher place in heaven than all of her siblings and cousins who didn't live it and and again that's just my personal witness to why some of these women even though they had her horrendous experiences we're still willing to Bear testimony about it later yeah absolutely that captures it yeah yeah you know what the only thing I'll add is you mentioned Abraham being mentioned what 31 times in DNC 132 and the two I just want to point out once again that God never commanded Abraham into polygamy never ever there's no scripture so Joseph Smith saying that in DNC 132 in the voice of God is a huge tell that Joseph Smith is trying to find ways to justify his actions with polygamy in a way that is just historically and biblically inaccurate which tells you right off the start that DNC 132 is not from God because he's choosing a basic inaccuracy for the justification for the entire thing and so I know I've mentioned that before but I like to hammer that point home because the entire justification is that Abraham was commanded by God except he wasn't and so the entire thing is immediately undercut um with credibility and that's just one of the errors we cover that in the DNC 132 episode but I just want to point that out once again that the entire justification Joseph Smith uses is an error it's Rewritten he rewrites it for his benefit yeah he's rewriting he's re and and to to make that point further Joseph Smith is going to rewrite the Bible right he's going to do the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible that gives him a chance if he wants to to fix the Bible to say it wasn't Sarah that gave Hagar it was I God told Abraham you are going to get Hagar or it could say I God told Sarah to tell Abraham taking her none of that's in the Joseph Smith translation so Joseph Smith had a chance to fix that in the Bible but he hadn't thought about his Justice he even thought probably hadn't even thought about any type of real system of polygamy and so the point is just like the first Vision just like the priesthood restoration you can see the timeline of where Joseph Smith is evolving these ideas and he has to try to retrofit him back to make justification for it and in this case he had opportunities to do that and didn't do it because he hadn't thought of it yet and so um to your point this is not in the Bible he's now reinterpreting the Bible when he had already done that with the Joseph Smith translation and didn't put that in there it's a big tell got it okay so the next slide is what we covered in part one of with basically last episode part one that will give me polygamous proposals episode yeah and so we just wanted to cover this really quick because this is a really important kind of common threads within Joseph's proposals that we wanted to um kind of have anyone listening to this or watching this kind of think about and so in the first episode we covered a lot that had all of these we're going to cover some in this episode they have these which is Joseph Smith married a lot of girls that lived in his home first and so this is something that you're going to see where Joseph Smith brings girls they live almost as a with Lucy Walker he called her an adoptive daughter um and while doing that he is kind of conditioning her to accept uh polygamy um Joseph Smith uses some of the older wives to recruit younger ones um some people have said that they were referred to as mothers in Zion so in the last episode we talked about that with the Partridge sisters with Elizabeth Durfee um basically being a you know kind of a middle woman um to feel out the The Partridge sisters to see what they know what they heard about the rumors if they were open to it and we're going to talk about that again in the happiness letter because the same thing happens there Joseph Smith proposes to girls that are invulnerable situations that's going to happen in today's episode as well where parents die or they're living with him and they don't have any kind of stability outside of you know their situation and Joseph Smith can then you know he seems to find a lot of women girls who are in vulnerable situations that don't have help we talked about that Lucy Walker her mom died Joseph sends her father off on a mission while her father's gone he proposes to her and she actually laments in her journal how she felt horrible that she had no Mom no dad to help her try to figure these things out um Joseph Smith often makes great promises in exchange for this marriage and we're going to see this today um with the helamar Kimball story um he also makes threats for those who who refuse uh Lucy Walker was told um after she hesitated Joseph Smith went back to I believe a few months later and said if I'm giving you 24 hours if you don't accept this the gates will be forever closed against you um we talked about the angel with a drawn sword that's a story he used um a couple of times at least three times where especially when the women rejected him we talked about the sign of Huntington where she rejected him she actually got married to someone else and then Joseph came and said she's gonna have to marry me an angel with a drawn sword is going to kill me or destroy me if they don't and so we covered these in the last episode but these patterns are going to go through to the to the proposals we talked about in this episode and they're really important to kind of understanding um how Joseph is crafting his proposals uh the tactics he's using to kind of Leverage these girls belief that he's a prophet of God almost against them to circumvent their moral compass to circumvent their conscience to get them to do something that they know deep down is wrong Alicia anything you want to add to this well I just wanted to reiterate that coercion is such a big theme here and I think it's interesting that today the doctrine of agency is so Central to Mormon Theology and it's interesting looking back on these events because doesn't it just feel like agency was not a priority for God when it came to moving these girls into plural marriage they were threatened they were told that the Gates of Heaven would be close to them if they did not comply that their families would lose out on salvation threatening the destruction of the Prophet if they didn't accept the proposal I mean in every case it just looks like agency not a big priority for God at that point so that's a pretty big shift from today for an unchanging God it's a pretty big shift considering the agency is the actual requirement for humans to earn their place in heaven um but apparently that's how important plural marriage was to Heavenly Father yeah another way I'd say that is just that God the 19th century Mormon God or Mormon Jesus because in in in Mormonism it's Jehovah or Jesus that's actually the god of the Doctrine and Covenants and the god Joseph Smith is talking to so basically Mormon Jesus 19th century Mormon Jesus doesn't understand consent doesn't understand coercion doesn't understand undue influence because what 14 15 16 year old girl who who is vulnerable in so many ways and then has an alleged prophet of God very similar to Warren Jeff's or David koresh or pick pick your leader of a high demand religion what 14 15 16 year old girl when threatened in all these different ways isn't gonna buckle and so that's just that's a God that doesn't understand consent and coercion and you just everyone has to ask themselves whether that's a God they're okay with that's the whole thing like I always when I I'm a you know as a convert I know I've mentioned this in episodes but I joined and I remember being talked about free agency and a lot of the free agency was more in the terms of the word of wisdom so they'd say well if you want to drink a cup of coffee you have the free agency to do that but if you do that the consequence is that you can't go to the temple you can't be with your family forever and I always used to think as a convert like is that really free agency because at that point the only real option you have is to obey leadership so it's like you have the free agency to obey and in this case it is basically telling these girls you know you have the choice uh you know and we talked about this in the last episode where Joseph Smith is going to these girls and saying you have a choice but if you choose not to I'm going to be killed and you just set them your profits so let's do this right and how do you if if you see this with any other leader it's a believing Mormon you'd say this is horrible and then when you say it's Joseph Smith you say oh well that one's from God and it's like no you can't this you cannot engage in special pleading uh without then having to apply that to other leaders that you don't want to do and that's why we always talk about trying to start with a clean slate and viewing this the same way you would view anything else because we can't view this through the lens of how the church has taught us for decades we have to view it through the lens of what does the data tell us what does the history tell us and that's what we're trying to do and I realize that's loaded I realize it's emotional but at the end of the day if the data is telling you something and you want to ignore that that's no longer Faith that's something entirely different yeah all right so the next slide we have is the Maria and Sarah Lawrence story yeah and so we finished our first uh the first part with the Partridge sisters and now Marie and Sarah Lawrence are going to be the second set of sisters that Joseph Smith is going to marry um in that brief window when Emma says okay you can marry some girls but I get to pick them and so she picks up our church sisters which we talked about he was already married to them when she picked them so he had to create the second sham marriage um but with the Lauren sisters they were also living in the Smith household uh when Emma chose them to be Brides of Joseph Smith um a lot of people speculate that Emma probably chose the Partridge sisters and the Lawrence sisters because they were living in the house and she could keep an eye on them um but the point is the Lauren sisters moved into the Smith household when their father died um The Smiths took him into their home and then Joseph Smith was the legal guardian over these two sisters um which makes the marriage all the more questionable but we do know Emma chose them so you have to kind of consider that in in that sense as well Maria was 19 when she married Joseph and her sister was just 16. Sarah both sisters indicated a sexual relationship with Joseph although they were not married to Joseph previous to Emma's brief acceptance as we talked about so um this is not like a sham marriage situation like we saw with the Partridge sisters prized you know a lot of this detail is new for me I'm surprised I've I've never heard Joseph Smith accused of incest now that's a harsh word um and I'm not I'm not invoking that word but knowing how angry especially some people who are processing this information tend to get I didn't realize he was literally the legal guardian over a 16 year old and if he's the level if he's the legal guardian over 16 year old and he's having sexual relations with her in his house that sounds a lot like adopting a child and then having sex with the child so I'm surprised no one's ever made that claim that I've heard Alicia or Mike tell me if you think I'm I'm not making that allegation tell me if you think that is reasonable or unreasonable that's exactly how I read it and I was gonna say I remember maybe like eight to ten years ago I don't remember when that book engaged in the wrestle by Sherry do oh I just love Sherry do like I would go to any opportunity I could to like listen to her talk and I remember thinking why is there such an emphasis to engage in the wrestle and wrestle with what like I just didn't understand what people were wrestling with until I started to get into this history and saw how just absolutely awful it was I mean that's just the understatement of the year um so it wasn't really until I started to dig into these stories especially of early Mormon polygamy that I realized like this is why there is such an emphasis because this is the one true church what do they have to tell us to stay in the boat like why would I get out of the boat like you just don't understand it until you start digging into it and what you just said John to me absolutely captures it I view these girls as like a foster child situation or an adopted daughter situation and there's multiple it's not just one we see this like consistent pattern so yeah so I don't think what you said was off base I completely aligned with that these Lawrence sisters were you know when you see parents that have passed away and Joseph Smith is like I'm gonna take you into my care you know he's not taking the little kids the little kids get fished out to other families it's just the ones who are like you know 14 and up yep yeah I I don't view it I don't view it as incest because I think this whole thing is is not it's not genetic you're saying because it wasn't genetic inside yeah but like at the same time like like Alicia said you have Joseph Smith with Lucy Walker he her mom dies he takes her in sends the dad off on a mission proposes to her while he's gone and they have sex you've got the Lauren sisters he is the legal guardian after their dad dies and we'll get into that a little bit more on the next slide but he assumes to be the legal guardian so they are technically like foster children and all of a sudden he marries and have sex with them and this this is something that should cross so many ethical lines so many moral lines and yet like Alicia said when you bring it up in a setting with Believers they're like oh well no um you just have to you know kind of accept the fact that Joseph made some mistakes it's like no he made these mistakes over and over there's a um a Friends episode where I think I forgot who it is but I think Ross like cheats on Rachel or whatever I don't know whatever it is and he says oh it's just kind of went in or something she goes to go in and out and in and out it's just like it's how many times do you have to have this happen where you go this is predatorial behavior this is if you had a foster home and they were bringing in a bunch of people who were coming from vulnerable situations and the teenage girls they were making secret proposals to and having sex with that person would be in jail and so to then say Joseph Smith was the most righteous person since Jesus or even just to say he's an imperfect man is a complete Dodge of the fact that we can show he is doing things that would absolutely repulse us if it was anyone else and so I don't really look at his incest it's just the most horrific abuses of power you can possibly imagine from someone who claims to speak for God okay all right well let's go to uh the next slide then the controversy with the estate of the Lawrence sisters yeah so this is the one where it gets a little even shadier with with this particular situation and there's a lot of controversy and it's one of those things we'll never quite know the full extent of and so Joseph Smith becomes the legal Guardians of the Lawrence sisters after their dad dies and in the will of um their father it gave one-third of the estate to his wife and the rest of it was to be spread out amongst the the different heirs and so um William law who at this point yes is an antagonistic Source although I think a lot of people would argue he's reliable because he was an Insider um claimed in 1887 um basically he says soon after my arrival in Nauvoo the two Lawrence girls came to the holy city two very young girls 15 to 17 years of age they had been converted in Canada where orphans were orphans and worth about eight thousand dollars in English gold Joseph got to be appointed their Guardian probably with the help of Dr Bennett he naturally put the gold in his pocket and had the girls sealed to him and so a lot of times you'll hear people who leave the church talk about how Joseph Smith basically becomes their Guardian so he could steal their state and Todd Compton um has a different take of it which he says the inheritance was not eight thousand dollars in English gold but a farm in Illinois which was possibly worth about a thousand dollars and a promissory no for three thousand dollars if it was repaid in full and so um we mentioned the inheritance because it's a common part of the Lawrence um sister story but we also do have these different accounts that Joseph Smith was handling this estate in a way that was seen by um the Lauren sister's mother and her um next husband as mishandling and kind of stealing their estate and so I don't know Felicia I know Alicia had some stuff she wanted to say on this maybe I'll let you jump in if you want and I know you had some thoughts yeah I just think this story is so interesting and I really wish we had first-hand accounts from these women um so we know Maria died before the Saints actually left for Nauvoo and then Sarah was reassigned to Hebrew C Kimball after Joseph Smith's death but eventually leaves the church from Salt Lake it was around 1851 and she goes to California she visits Salt Lake at one point after leaving as an apostate and um apparently denies ever having anything to do with Joseph Smith or her second husband Heber C Kimball and this is just totally anecdotal but I thought it was interesting because so many of us are living Our Lives as apostates so I thought it was a little fun just like side note of the way that Helen Mark Kimball who remains faithful um she writes her thoughts about Sarah Lawrence in an exponent article um and I just thought it was really interesting so you have to paint the picture Helen Mark Kimball's father is the one that Sarah was reassigned to okay so and she also I didn't include this part in the quote but she also suggests that it was because of Sarah's jealous nature that she walked away from polygamy um I hope it doesn't seem that I'm throwing Helen Mark Kimball under the bus but I just thought this was an interesting side note so she says this is what Helen Mark Kimball says of Sarah she has lost Every Spark of the Gospel which had once been her guiding star and was finally left to herself she became so wicked that when paying her last visit to Salt Lake she denied emphatically ever being connected to Joseph or my father and was very insulting to those who dared to dispute her word she abused her brother Henry's second wife most shamefully when meeting her in a store laying to her the most humiliating and abusive accusations which proved her to be the most vicious and heartless woman her brother Henry Lawrence was so annoyed by her unprincipled course that he was among the most thankful when she left here and returned to California where she soon died dang that's Grim yeah so why well tell me what that is sad like so her other sister had already died young and now she's dying young like to me I'm wondering was it by by Suicide like but tell me why you're laughing Alicia but also tell me I I don't know it's just yeah it is really sad it's just some of these situations are like so horrific that it's like insulting a little levity can like almost help us look at it um but I think also just having experience being an apostate myself and how people really view us it's just kind of like the worst thing you can imagine just yesterday I was trying to explain it to someone who's never been a member and I said imagine the worst thing you can imagine someone doing robbing a bank I mean I don't know killing someone and then like what do you think of them after they do that is it someone that you're going to go to for advice is it someone that you respect I mean I feel like in some cases not every case but I feel like in some cases is that is how we're viewed as people who've walked away from the church that there's just like you just have completely lost your position as a person of authority as a person worthy of respect or you know what I mean and so I just think it's interesting to look back on the early days of the church and see in all of these episodes what we're doing is viewing patterns that possibly still exist today and are still threaded through our Mormon culture even today so this bit from Helen talking about her you know I guess what would have been her stepmom um who's really essentially her peer right um but it's just I just think it's interesting to look at these these patterns that exist today like really they where their Genesis is the early days of the Mormon church yeah like like if it's true that uh which is the Lawrence girl that that comes into Salt Lake City which which one yeah if it's true Sarah Lawrence comes in and denies any association with Joseph Smith in terms of polygamy she's only doing what Emma did which is to say I I don't want this to be uh tagging me for the rest of my life I mean who would who would want that Scandal but I'm also reminded of the musical Wicked um when alphaba the the green you know the witch when when she turns on The Wizard of Oz there's that song where the where the townspeople start gossiping about her and they you know they say something like I hear she has an extra eye that always remains awake you know uh you know and and you can just see that that when somebody crosses the the power the community that supports the power Just Rises up to defame um defame the apostates and that's just That's The Human Experience dehumanized yeah yeah and we'll see that in our next episode which is gonna be on the happiness letter um Eliza snow who is an uh you know polygamous wife um she does the same thing where all of a sudden Nancy Richton speaks out and she writes a poem called the Tattler where she goes after and you're just like you know we talk about this in the in the last episode where you know sometimes in these systems women um maybe will go along with it and really try you know to create their own power within that system knowing that you're strengthening you know in this case like a patriarchal polygamous system but some of these women will basically Elevate themselves to um protect their power in that system and so they see people who speak out against it as someone who is going to um take all of the sacrifice they've made to become a polygamous wife and kind of uh diminish it and so they do speak out and it's kind of sad to see that because of the fact that these are women who were together in this early part of the church but because some of the women spoke out against what Joseph Smith was doing with polygamy they're all on the enemy and it just shows how divisive it can be and not to lose the point of this slide not only do we have Joseph Smith having sex with with basically foster children in his care he's he's apparently taking their large inheritance and using it for his own personal purposes I wish Sarah Lawrence would have put together an autobiography or the Lawrence sisters would have put together an autobiography or a biography because that would make really really valuable uh information I think it would and that's the problem we don't have a lot and so um the last two tidbits I'll make on this is um Lindsey Hansen Park and her year of polygamy episode talks about the The Inheritance issue and so while we don't know exactly what Joseph Smith took over as guardian and Trustee of their estate we do know that when um their mother Margaret remarries um the husband that she remarries goes to Joseph Smith to try to take back the estate and Joseph Smith of course is not going to give it to him and so the history of church history of the church records this passage from Joseph Smith um Josiah Butterfield and he's the new husband came to my house and insulted me so outrageously that I kicked him out of the house across the yard and into the street and so it's one of those things where we don't know the specifics but we do know that at least on some level Joseph Smith was controlling this estate and it was at least enough of an estate where the new husband wanted to get it back for him and his wife and Joseph wouldn't give it to them so you could see whether it's a large amount whether it's eight thousand dollars or whether it's three thousand or or 1000 Joseph Smith is holding These funds in a way that basically is apparently keeping it away from from the the Widow of the husband and I think that again shows you some of the character that we're dealing with and some of the problems you see when you try to justify these polygamous marriages and maybe in this case it wasn't just about sex because Emma did give these girls to Joseph but apart from all of that Joseph was already the trustee of their estate and so you're seeing these power dynamics the money Dynamics the um the property all of these things are woven into these accounts and that's what we're trying to cover a bunch of them to show that these are not one-off things these are patterns and the last note I'll make as you had mentioned um the uh can I just say really quickly yeah I just Googled what three thousand dollars in 1840 would be worth today and it's a hundred and hundred and two thousand dollars yeah I mean and so we don't know because Todd Compton says it was a promissory note so we don't know what was paid back but the problem is even if it wasn't payback the fact is Joseph Smith holding out of that note because he wants to be the one that's paid back so you can't say he didn't get anything because he probably thought he was going to and so mostly is three thousand dollars if it's not eight thousand oh yeah a thousand is still an enormous amount it would be a ton of money it would be at this point in the church an amount of money that they need because this is after Joseph Smith has run the church in the ground with the bank scandals and all that so I mean this is a big deal yeah and again even if Joseph doesn't have gold in his pocket he would have a no that would potentially get him like you said the equivalent of like six figures today which is obviously you know it's a massive amount of money and you can understand why the the new husband is trying to fight to get it back for him and Margaret who is the Widow and um yeah yeah so and then um Mariah uh Maria died at 22 and Lindsay Hansen Park notes and in her upset a year polygamy that when she died um she was said to have spent the last years of her life marred by sadness um Samuel Smith's daughter um Mary Norman wrote she died of consumption or one might more truthfully put it of a broken heart she said to my aunt Lucy one time that if there was any truth in Mormonism she would be saved for she said my yoke has not been easy nor my burden light that's a phrase I've heard a lot before so she obviously the Lauren sisters did not have a good experience with Joseph Smith's polygamy um with Mormon polygamy with the Mormon church and so when you hear me they both died in their 20s basically it looks like I think Sarah died when she was 40 something I think she died like when she was 45. oh okay okay so died before there were 50. yeah yeah they both died before they were 50. they both obviously did not have good feelings about what was happening and so when you hear the church say oh well they had such great spiritual experiences so you should question it's like no no you need to take all of this together and and look at the data again because we you know we see in all sorts of high demand places where people are in situations where you can see it's horrific and they're like no no no this is what God wants this is what you know so it yeah it's it's messy but you know we do have these accounts that I think are helpful to give context all right well let's jump to our next uh spouse victim Helen Mark Kimball she's perhaps the most mentioned of all of Joseph Smith's uh plural wives yeah and this one is um the one I can tell you right now when I when I first read the the Cs letter um I when I first needed to know and I I could picture I I went into another room I was at my I was at my in-laws house and I grabbed my laptop I sat down on the bed and the one thing that always bothered me about Mormonism was polygamy so I searched for Mormon polygamy or I think it was Joseph Smith Joseph Smith Mormon polygamy and the Cs letter came up and I remember reading the stuff by helmar Campbell and it was one of those ones where like you're you just feel like your stomach dropped because you're like this is insane and um to me we'll get into it in these slides but the whole story is actually worse I think in a lot of ways than just the fact that she was 14 so um can I ask you guys to validate just one thing I don't see this in in the slides coming up is I underst I was told this story of of Joseph Smith bringing Heber C Kimball into his office and saying something like Hebrew God has told me that I'm supposed to take your wife to be my wife and then Heber supposedly like kneels down brings his wife to Joseph or something and like hand hands Joseph his wife's hand in marriage to show his obedience and then Joseph Smith um seals them together on the spot and basically says that was an abrahamic test now that's a story I remember being told at BYU around 1991-92 it I I think it's probably important is it important for us to tell that story before we talk about Helen Marr it's in there we we have it's actually at the beginning so we yeah oh my gosh I'm so freaking sorry I didn't see it let's jump in so you know as John said this is probably the most famous of the the polygamist marriages because of the fact that she's 14 and so to me the story behind it um is crazy because it's often used as this Faith promoting story and I cannot understand for the life of me how it is and so the church's essay says according to Helen R Kimball Joseph Smith stated that the practice of this principle would be the hardest trial the Saints would ever have to test their faith though it was one of the severest trials of her life she testified that had also been one of the greatest blessings her father Hebrew C Kimball agreed I never felt more sorrowful he said of the moment he learned of plural marriage in 1841 I wept days I had a good wife I was satisfied and what the church does not mention here is that Hebrew C Kimball only finds Comfort after his wife has a Visionary experience and so the reason he's weeping for days is because Joseph Smith comes to him and says hey Heber God told me that you're supposed to give your wife to me so he weeps days or WEP days because he was not wanting to give up his wife to Joseph Smith and so the essay makes it sounds like he wept days because of the idea of polygamy no he cried for days because Joseph Smith said you need to give me your wife and so Joseph Smith um calls it an abrahamic test I would argue it's a loyalty test so Hebrew cumbo comes back and he says you know what Joseph have my wife go do what you want with her and Joseph's like oh dude no sorry this was just a test so he does seal him on this I think he does see him on the spot he seals him quickly and the point is so the church puts this out as this faith-fulling story but here's the problem and and so um violet or valet I think it's for late right late so it says Hebrews you know he perceived Kimball says he felt you know uh I never felt more sorry what days at a good wife well then they talk about how he finds comfort in this right and um the only reason he gets comfort in it is because his wife um basically agrees that he can go and have sex with other women and so um valade's daughter later recalls uh she told me she never saw happy a mana's father was when she described the vision and told him she was satisfied and knew it was from God and so they paid this as a faith promoting story but basically what they're saying is he she never saw Hebrew Kimball as happy as when she told him he could go and marry and have sex with other women I mean it's just like I read that I'm just like what in the you know what what the frick are we doing here painting that as a faith morning story you know just this idea like could you imagine a church movie where valet walks up to Hebrew and she's like you know what Hebrew I believe it's from God so you can marry and have sex with uh I can't remember the name of the first woman um Sarah Moon I think that he takes and then he just jumps for Joy with this big smile on his face it's like this is insane you would think if Hebrew C Kimball was a good dude he'd be crying because his wife's like yeah you got to go marry and have sex with this other girl but it's like this I I cannot understand this is Faith promoting you got Joseph Smith saying I'm going to take your wife Hebrew cries for days they don't really mention why in the essay he comes he says no you can have her and then all of a sudden then they're like oh well Hebrew is so happy once his wife yeah sorry it's horrible you were not you were shaking your head Alicia anything you want to add I have so many thoughts on this I'm not I wish her where to throw this in but throw this out there because I think it's such a peculiar situation and there is a lot of dispute about like whether they had sex or not I know we're going to talk about that in a couple slides but I just wanted to throw one thing out you guys feel free to tell me your thoughts on it but Hebrew C Kimball eventually becomes the second most powerful person in the church and there was a lot of resistance going on at this time just if you think about the climate of the church and how many people were you know there was a lot of hiding and just there was so much resistance from community members people who had descended from the church so could this marriage to Helen be partly that Joseph Smith is looking to create this like Dynasty here in this lifetime like a group of individuals that will have his back under any circumstance um and to create this level of Allegiance he would really have to make them like family right so then what better way to vet someone first of all than to give them the abrahamic test to see if they would be willing to give their own why life and in this case he was um and then I don't know you just think about this it sort of galvanizes this allegiance to Joseph Smith um they're going to be exalted together in the highest level levels of Heaven um the kimballs and the Smiths all because of Helen um and I think it's worth a consideration I just I think there might be more than just Joseph Smith wanting a 14 year old I think there might have been more strategy in this have either of you ever thought of that well in this particular story I think most of the accounts that we have and there's there's not a lot they're written late but they do tend to point to Heber C Kimball giving Helen to Joseph and not Joseph saying because you sometimes you'll hear from like uh like when you get out of the church and you'll hear people talk about they'll say oh yeah Joseph said I'm gonna take your wife and then when he said no he says well I'm not going to take your wife and I'm taking your daughter I don't think we have any accounts that back that up so I do think that as Joseph is teaching these these men about polygamy and he's trying to justify it by saying I could seal people together and create this dynasty that I think Hebrew C Kimball then says well I want in on that um the problem to to that apologetic standpoint there's two one is they have the law of adoption at that point which is where men could be sealed to men so Joseph could have sealed himself to Heber problem solved the other problem is Joseph is marrying pairs of sisters he marries a mother and a daughter so the whole dynastic thing goes out the window when you're having sex with different pairs of sisters like with the Partridge sisters and the Lauren sisters if you're really trying to create a dynasty of families he could have married and had sex with Eliza or Emily but not he doesn't need to do both and he marries four pairs of sisters so I do think I do think people believed Joseph Smith was creating a dynasty where you're sealing people together and I do believe that makes the other men in the church more willing to jump into it and to be complicit within it and that might be why Hebrew says take my daughter because I want to be sealed to you um but at the same time because they have the law of adoption and because of what Joseph Smith is doing I think that apologetic is still going to be unworkable because of how much Joseph kind of abuses those kind of lines of you know like I said marrying and having sex with with four pairs of sisters and mother-daughter pair and all that it just doesn't quite work he could he could have avoided a lot of these problems if that was really his goal so you think he really just wanted a 14 year old wife in this case I don't think well I mean again I think the story shows in this case that Heber is giving Helen to Joseph so I'm not sure that you could make the argument that Joseph saw Helen and said hey your daughter's looking pretty good I want her I think Hebrew is from from the stories that we have again this is it's it's it's it's it's fragmentary as the church loves to say in some of these are late editions so when you have a late story of course you're going to want to frame this and you're going to make Joseph as righteous as you can but what we do have seems to indicate that it was Heber who's telling Joseph take my daughter um and I think Helen kind of implies that as well in her writings where she says basically like my wife or my father sacrificed me as a ulam or whatever it is um so in this case I don't think Joseph Smith is seeking her out I I think with Lucy Walker you can make that argument with the Partridge sisters you make that argument I don't know that you can hear because we don't have enough data so I yeah I wouldn't go that route with this particular one I might be more Disturbed if if it's Heber that's offering his daughter up to Joseph than I am if Joseph's going after because ultimately Joseph yeah so it just shows how much power he had that men were offering up their 14 year old daughters yep to Joseph because yeah that's even more disturbing maybe I and I agree that that's why I always say I've said in these episodes a few times you know high demand religions can make really good people do really dumb things or really bad things and in this case this particular belief made Heber potentially give up his daughter to a a man that's over twice her age um and that is not exactly a faith promoting story either so even if you want to we'll get into this in the next few slides but yeah to your point John you know people like oh well Joseph didn't demand her well it doesn't necessarily fix the problems that are coming from here it might fix one but it creates another yeah well let's jump to the next slide which is how the gospel topics essay on polygamy misleads members in the world about the Heber City Kimball story yeah and so we pretty much just covered this I I kind of went through this slide of the when I was kind of rambling on but yeah I mean basically I just the essay talks about this as being this Faith promoting story and you know they don't tell um you know the quote about Helen R Kimball that she never saw so happy man is when father uh as father when she described the vision um and they don't tell her that's because Hebrew was commanded by Joseph Smith to take a polygamous wife Sarah noon he did have the name right yeah or else he would lose his apostleship so you know it's just funny because if the church essay said you know um Hebrew went to his wife and said I'm gonna I need to marry and have sex with Sarah noon uh and then she said yes and and then you know Helen later said she never saw so happy a man a reader would be like holy crap that's horrible but the fact is they're being very careful not to give the context here and I think that that is very misleading intentionally so that readers don't understand how this system of polygamy is being implemented um Hebrew C Kimball would eventually take 43 wives he would have 66 children with 17 of those wives um you know and again this is the other side of the story they're not telling you and um to get now to the to what everybody knows about this story this is where Joseph Smith is going to marry Helen Mark Kimball when she was just 14 years old and from the church's essay it says the youngest wife was helamar Kimball daughter of Joseph's close friends Heber C and valet Marie Kimball who was sealed to Joseph several months before her 15th birthday marriage at such an age inappropriate by today's standard was legal in that era and some women married in their mid-teens that statement at the end is absolute crap and um we can get into that but yeah that the the there this part of the essay is just absolute I mean like nuclear grade BS and um so yeah I mean obviously for those who don't know the history when the church came out with this with this essay critics of the church liberal you know Progressive Mormons in the church and ex-mormons just screamed outrage because just say it say 14 year old don't you know and I think we can safely attribute Brian Hale's the Mormon apologist who's really an anesthesiologist who does polygamy research on the side but I think we can safely attribute that phrase to him although as I understand it the correlation process went all the way up to the Mormon apostles who approved these essays so we can't hang it all on Brian Hales but but just don't use language like that just say it 14 years old you know yeah yeah yeah yeah I wouldn't even put it on Brian I I wouldn't put on Brian I bet you Brian wrote whatever he wrote and I bet you went through correlation I bet you they have a legal department and at some point someone's like we cannot put 14 in there and I have a you know again it could be Brian but I would make the argument that they have people reading this that are trying to anticipate the response from readers and they're like you cannot say Joseph has been married a 14 year old and some idiot in the room is like guys I've got an idea let's say several months before it's just it's it's it's so it makes it worse because you're now really kind of stupidly trying to divert from a really simple fact that everyone can read uh you know you could go what's several months before 15 or 14. so it's one and I think the guy um I think I think it's last name is snow he's one that he was either a historian or one of the people in the history Department he did an interview a year or two ago and he actually said it was a mistake for us to phrase it that way they know it was stupid to do that you want to add anything to that Alicia yeah I just think that the church is doing everything they can to try to make this look not as awful as it absolutely is I mean when we read what Helen markimble said about her experience going through this as a as a young girl um you know she talks about what it was like to abandon her social life her friends you know not be able to date them and she already had a love interest at that time and it's nice to know that she did eventually get to pursue that because Joseph Smith died um but the intention was for her to be this silent wife um and reading her accounts really gives us a taste of what it would have been like for her and what it was probably like for the other girls um as she related those experiences and I actually have this quote here from Todd Compton um from in sacred loneliness he says she is perhaps the classic example of a woman whose conversion to polygamy was difficult but complete coming only after a period of severe cognitive dissonance yeah okay yeah so um so Mike did you we've talked about this quote Oh yeah let's do this real quick yeah this this one I you know that last paragraph I read from their essay is just it's crap and this is why it's because you know we talked about the fact that they're using deceptive wording um they don't mention the fact that Joseph also marries another 14 year old um Nancy Maria Winchester um but the age stuff that they talk about is just ridiculous first of all um in the 1890 census they tell us at the age of the average age of marriage for a woman was 20 and 24 for men um and most also be pointed out that 19th century girls typically had their first period three years later than they do today so in terms of sexual maturity marrying a 19 year old or 19th Century 14 year old is the equivalent of marrying like an 11 year old today and so it makes it a lot grosser but um this marriage is problematic no matter how much the church wants to try to paint it as not a big deal the the age difference Joseph Smith is almost tripler ages 38 and 14. and the church also says uncommon or maybe not common in that day but it was legal this marriage is not legal because polygamy is not legal so every part of that paragraph is just misleading and they know what they're doing by using that wording and so we revolted it hearing that Warren just married young girls and as I said at the beginning of the episode we cannot privilege Joseph Smith just because we were raised and conditioned and indoctrinated to believe he's a prophet of God because once you do that you then have to say well then Warren Jeffs should be able to have that same special pleading from his followers and we're not willing to give that so until we're willing to say to flds members you know what your beliefs are just as valid as mine you you can't have it both ways and I hate that the church tries to do that ugh could not agree more Mike yeah that line that they used that it was legal in that era and some women married in their mid-teens this statement does not capture nearly the reality of it this was not a thousand years ago I mean I almost wonder if there was like this Joseph Smith you know referencing the Old Testament and so I think just as like lay readers of this Doctrine like we don't really like it was 200 years ago that's not very long ago it wasn't that different than it is today um I don't know people will sometimes say also you know my grandmother was 15 when she got married but usually in those cases she was marrying someone that wasn't that much older than her it wasn't someone that was like twice or three times their age so the church makes this big effort to make this look acceptable um and to say that it was legal this may have been legal at the time but it wasn't ethical and it was certainly viewed as immoral from people both outside the church and inside the church I mean it was this is why people I mean this is part of the reason that people didn't like Joseph Smith yeah I mean part of the reason the navu Expositor was written is because William law was mad about Joseph marrying the Lawrence sisters so you know this is not I mean people in Joseph Smith's Inner Circle like dude this is horrible you know and so this idea that well it wasn't necessarily common it wasn't legal we talked about that it's not legal you polygamous marriages none of them are legal so the Article of Faith saying we obey the law of the land absolute crap they did not um and it's not common because what they're trying to imply is that being because you're married in your teenage years it's it you know that happened a lot well what about a 14 year old American 42 you might be able to find a few examples maybe in the entire history of our records but it's not common because it just didn't happen and so yeah it's such a misleading paragraph and it's one of those things where they're hoping members don't look further they're hoping they go oh that's why it happened and not actually look at the fact that no they're lying about the the ages of marriage the Gap back then we have two different censuses I have on the website I think one is four years and one's like 2.4 years so we're talking in Joseph Smith's case um a 24-year gap it's it's it's not it just doesn't work okay all right so now we get to another just what I think is a really disingenuous apologetic uh asking the question you know challenging the idea that Joseph Smith would have had sex with hello Mark Kimball yeah and so this is one of those ones I just want to be clear there's no evidence either way so a lot of people will say because there's no evidence they had sex they didn't have sex um a lot of people say because there's no evidence they didn't have sex they did outside we just don't know and so it wasn't normal at that time for for girls to talk about their sex lives let alone a 14 year old in a polygamous marriage to someone who claimed a prophet of God and so um apologists will cite Helen's absence in the temple law case as evidence that she did not have sex but again the church wanted to proved Joseph Smith was a polygamist but I'm not sure they're going to want to put up someone is saying that they had sex as a 14 year old girl I just I think that's one of those things where that to me is not a convincing argument and um you know the point is we don't know and in my opinion it doesn't matter and in my opinion they probably did if I had to put money down I'd say they probably did not have sex um but the fact is Joseph Smith is still controlling her he's controlling her chance at a loving relationship he's controlling um his her chance at being able to go out to dances and meet boys that she actually wants to spend her life with she's basically being shielded now because she's um basically marked for being future sexual relations with Joseph Smith and so um you know we've talked about Lindsey Hansen Park's your polygament podcast uh often in these episodes and I highly recommend um her not just that podcast series but her episodes on Mormon stories um they did she did an episode with you going over the essay itself and she talks about that it's not just about sex it's about the fact that he is controlling her sexuality he's controlling her chance at love he's controlling her ability to go out in public um so even if they didn't have sex he's still having a lot of those power dynamics with a 14 year old girl and those are things that cannot just be swept away because of that we just we don't know if they had sex but there's still a lot of other things we do know foreign Alicia do you want to say anything about this question yeah I mean just sort of reiterating I mean this is the most common talking point when it comes to Helen Mark Kimball because she was 14 you know this question of whether or not the marriage was consummated um the reality is we don't have evidence either way but I think that by belaboring this point we Overlook the fact that either way this is a terrible situation because the level of control and again just going back to those later writings of what it was like for her to look around and see the other kids that her age and also I think it's worth noting that she didn't initially know that this would be um I think initially didn't she believe that this would be just for eternity and it wasn't until after that she realized that this actually was going to mean that she couldn't date and she couldn't have her childhood and that was devastating to her and she absolutely viewed herself as a Living Sacrifice um but then the other point that I wanted to make and feel free to respond to that if I got any of that wrong Mike um but this whole premise behind the Revelation was that was about procreation like go back to dnc132 if you're confused about what this all means this is what these references of Abraham are about it's about raising up seed there's multiple sources that tell that this was Joseph Smith's intention was to raise up this righteous generation I think he even uses the word race um at one point with um well I can't remember who it was um but the story of Sarah giving Hagar to her husband Abraham the purpose was to raise up innumerable seeds so if there wasn't sex initially that was I would dispute absolutely intended at some point absolutely what happened before or not yep did I get it all right I think so I mean you'll hear apologists say that the marriage to Helen was eternity only but the actions don't match that because as you said Helen was not allowed to go to dance if she was not allowed to date if it was truly eternity alone she would have lived a normal Teenage life and she'd been able to marry somebody knowing that eventually she'd be sealed to Joseph in the attorneys that's not what we have and so to your point what this is if they didn't have sex and we don't know Joseph Smith is still basically earmarking her for sex later so however you want to look at it he was planning on having sex with her and you know the last thing I'll note is we have this angel with the John sword story right and the angel comes down and says that Joseph Smith is not practicing the Commandment fully fully meaning sex so the angel comes down to tell Joseph Smith that because originally you'll hear apologists say well Joseph Smith was marrying these polyandrous wives because he thought he could get around the Commandment that way he thought if he married women that were already married he wouldn't have to have sex he could get around it because they tried to make Joseph the victim and they say well the angel came down and said you're not practicing it fully and you're going to be destroyed if you don't so then he marries Helen Mark Kimball and so this idea that they wouldn't have sex doesn't match with the angel story that's why I'm saying like take this all in totality the angel story tells us that the angel is telling him I'm going to destroy you if you don't start having sex in these you know polygamous marriages that are being participated in fully and so I honestly think well first of all I think it's all made up but the angel with the John sword story did not happen because the implications that are honestly horrific for the Mormon version of God but the point is the the the fact is Joseph Smith is marrying this 14 year old girl and he doesn't live long after this marriage I would would wager that she and him would have had sex because it's a marriage as you said to raise up seed and because he's not letting her go out and talk to any other guys this was a marriage that was planned to go on as long as he lived and so whether you want to say he didn't well he didn't have sex with a 14 year old but he earmarked her for sex it's still gross and it's still a horrible violation in abuse of your you know claimed Authority as prophet of God and trying to like you said Patrick Mesa says Lipstick On a Pig this is lipstick on a pig this don't I mean just don't defend this just say I don't even know what to say this but yeah don't defend this um I was just going to say there's a quote by Richard Anderson in um the book and sacred loneliness by Todd Compton and it says Helen says several times that her father took the initiative to arrange the marriage very possibly he did so with a view to committing her to the prophet before her budding social life produced a choice or a proposal from someone else it's almost like when you take an eight-year-old child and try to get them to get baptized before they go out and learn about religion on their own or something but you know that's just a side note yeah I'll just I'll just weigh in really quickly with some things I've said before number one is that if every other profit if we have multiple wives of Joseph uh admitting you know signing affidavits in in the temple lock case specifically that they had sex with Joseph or that they were married to Joseph and very deed or knew him biblically if we if we know that if we have evidence from Joseph's own wives that he uh had sex with them and then we know that every single other instance of Mormon polygamy involves sex including Brigham Young and Heber C Kimball they're all having sex with all their wives why are we going to bracket off just the 14 year olds or just the polyandrous wives and say that in those instances there was no sex there's no reason to do that other than motivate motivated reasoning or special pleading and then the only other thing I'll just say is what does this say about Mormon Jesus or the Mormon God that he's telling a 14 year old girl even if she's just going to be put on cold storage for a couple years why is that necessary why not just wait till she's 20. why not just wait like God if God can if God's all-powerful if he can make Laban fall down drunk so that Nephi can chop his head off which is a problematic story in and of itself if God can do anything he can keep Helen from getting married until she's 18 or 20 if he wants to um why would he make a 14 year old marriage essential it did you have to look at what that means about Mormon Jesus or Mormon God yeah or or why couldn't God why couldn't Mormon version of God send an angel down to Helen and said hey um I need you to not date because you've been given to Joseph Smith I mean it's weird thought that this Angel could actually visit someone besides the man who claims all these stories but yeah I just they enjoy the John's sword story is the most ridiculous thing because like you said God says all power the Mormon version of God is this all-powerful God that cannot do anything when Joseph is not in control of the situation we talked about that with treasure digging with the translation with the loss 116 Pages the Mormon version of God is the most powerless being on the in the universe when the Joseph Smith's not in control of the situation when Joseph Smith's not in control he's less powerful than like anyone and and so it just shows when you have someone who claims to speak for God what can happen yeah all right let's jump to the next slide which is Joseph Smith traded exaltation for Helen's hand in marriage yeah and so we talked about this at the beginning and this is one of those things you hear where Joseph Smith makes these promises to these women that if they marry him it will be a blessing they'll get exaltation and so this is from Helen Mars own words she says Joseph said to me if you will take this step it will ensure your Eternal salvation and exaltation and that of your father's household and all your Kindred This Promise was so great that I willingly gave myself to purchase So Glorious a reward none but God and His angels could see my mother's bleeding heart when Joseph asked her if she was willing she replied if Helen is willing Helen is willing I have nothing more to say she had witnessed the sufferings of others who were older and who better understood the stuff they were taking to see your child who had scarcely seen her 15th summer following in the same thorny path in her mind she saw the misery which was sure to come as the sun was to rise and set but it was all hidden from me um man that that one sucks like just reading that I had a hard time like the mom sees it the mom knows full well and yet she lets it go because what is she gonna do to stop the guy who claims he's a prophet of God and I just man that actually I just reading it yeah we need we need to remember to have uh Alicia Reed yeah we do from women yeah Alicia do you have do you have a comment about that quote I just it's interesting that this is what is what right that like Helen accepted it I think it's really helpful and I I this had never dawned on me and it seems just like Captain Obvious here um but I don't know if I ever appreciated How Deeply indoctrinated Helen Mark Kimball would have been first of all her parents are like some of the most devout people in Mormon history right and she's and I would say probably from her earliest memory she's been indoctrinated and even from the time she was seven years old and went to the local Schoolhouse her textbook was the Book of Mormon kind of like the flds kids were right like in the 80s I don't know how long that went on but um for the flds kids The Book of Mormon was part of their schooling their you know just even in a Grade School and this was the case for Helen Mark Kimball so I I don't mean to belittle her and I I don't mean to be um I just I hope this isn't disrespectful but I do think it's really important in gaining context on Helen Mark Kimball that she really has a very singular narrow world view that is Mormonism and I just don't think that there is any other option for her as she's looking at this decision yeah yes yep and that's what we saw with Lucy Walker um some of the other ones where Joseph will say Do you believe him a prophet and as soon as they say yeah you're boxed in and um absolutely there just aren't any other options because you're raised to believe this is the one guy who can pull you through to exaltation and then all of a sudden after you tell tell them yeah I believe you're a prophet then he says this is what you need to do I mean how hard is it to say no at that point and and like you said your whole world view at this point you know the church is everything especially in the early days man I know it is to people today but back then even more so you're you know they're that's why there's only a few people that said no and spoke out about it because of the fact that most people are so far in and you know it's the milk before me right the further you get in the harder it is to get out and um you could like you said you could see that here all right uh let's go to the next slide which is how Helen lost her Eternal companion to Joseph and Mike you can decide whether you want me or uh Alicia to read the quote uh let's have a Alicia read it but this is um not I mean I think there's some quotes in here but this is just you know to kind of give some idea of some of the damage that that this polygamist marriage caused um this is a write-up I reference in our last episode called letter from a doubter which is a really really good write-up about some of the issues with church history that I think I really wish more people read because I think it's really impactful um but anyways yeah if you want to read that paragraph this kind of goes over you know some of what happened to Helen after um she dies after Joseph dies am I reading it yeah you're okay with it yeah sorry yeah no problem after Joseph Smith's death Helen got her social life back when she was 16 she met Horace Whitney and they started dating however the consequences of her marriage to Joseph weren't erased though in Helen's own words she and Horus vowed to cling to each other through time and if permitted throughout eternity it was ultimately not permitted Helen being sealed to Joseph for eternity could only be sealed to Horus for time their children would be Josephs in the eternities they were sealed for time and Horus did proxy for the deceased Joseph while Helen was resealed to him for eternity a recurring pattern is that Joseph's ceilings were repeated by proxy after his death as compensation Horus was sealed the following day to a deceased woman once again a family was not bound together for eternity by sealing ordinance but rather separated by it oh man that really captures it doesn't it Mike what's your commentary uh what's your commentary on that it's horrific we've we've talked about this in the previous episodes but this is the problem when you start getting into the church never wants to talk about the specifics of this because the specifics are horrible and in this case Helen finds someone she loves they have kids these kids love their parents in a Mormon Doctrine those kids are going to be ripped away from and given to Joseph Smith who never met them uh for eternity this is like the most you know this you know we talk we hear so much about how this is the only family that can keep uh there's only church and keep families together forever it's also the only church that claims to separate them uh based on something as stupid as this and um I know stupid's a loaded word but this Doctrine is what happens when you have somebody riffing off a 3200 word revelation without any notes because you create these different parts of the doctrine that just are irreconcilable with with any notion of a loving God like this idea that God um is we hear all the time like with 116 Pages God knows everything that's going to happen he thought of any every iteration um we're in the happiness letter um episode next week he mentions how you know God only does things that he's already you know figured out is going to make us the most happy and yet we have this situation where this poor guy is going to lose his children forever and as a consolation prize is sealed to a dead woman it's just it's nonsensical and yet this is what awaits every mixed Faith marriage because in the Mormon Church's um Doctrine if you're in a mixed Faith marriage and one spouse Falls away um if you're a woman you're going to be given to another guy for his polygamous Harem and for the eternities and if the woman falls away then as the guy you get to take the kids the exaltation the wife just gets to go to a lower Kingdom and so this idea is yeah sorry I I this stuff really just angers me still because I'm in a mixed Faith marriage and I see in other mixed Faith marriages how this stuff still lingers over and then they say oh no we don't really know what's going to happen all that'll be figured out in the attorneys it's like no it's been figured out we just don't want to talk about it anything you want to add on this one Alicia yeah Mike it's so hard to talk about this without getting heated because these are the points of Mormon history that do affect us today um and the story of horse Whitney is just another example of how men in the church also suffered in the name of the new and Everlasting Covenant um because Horrors believed that he wouldn't even be with his own children in the next life because his children were going to go to Joseph right um and it does make me think about this Paradox that we have that the church is all about families but how many cases do you know where because of the doctrine people living people are isolated from their families because they've stepped away from the church or because they're not living the gospel or they've lost their testimonies and their families believe that they won't be together in the next life and that's bound to impact relationships today during this life so this is why this content is so important to me I've seen so many situations where because someone is lgbtq or because they've lost their testimony that their parents don't talk to them they don't respect them they don't really have a seat at the table anymore and I can't help but think that this Doctrine is the source of that by the way did you guys see that promotional video of the financial firm who is literally their selling point is that they will establish a trust for you that which only children who are living Faithfully will receive their inheritance after you die and they've got these testimonials of parents saying oh yeah I don't want my adult children to have my money unless they're living righteously I mean it's unimaginable and it is rooted in this concept of the next life so I think Horace Whitney's story is just one small piece but it sets a pattern that I would argue we see even today in the church yeah I agree all right Mike anything else about this slide are we ready for the next one uh uh no I think you know I think I've said like I hopefully if you guys all said I'm I'm good all right well now we're on to Sarah and Whitney then yeah so Sarah and Whitney's an interesting one um she was a daughter of Newell K Whitney who is a big like you uh we lost your audio for some reason um uh and it's still not there it's still unmuted so something something how about now okay now it's good I don't understand why let's do this try that again yeah so Sarah and Whitney was the daughter of new Okay Whitney and he was a well-known member uh early Bishop in the church the whitneys were a connected family um Sarah was the second counselor to Emma Smith when the Relief Society was founded um Joseph initially approached Sarah's parents about the marriage and they much like other stories initially resisted but then agreed after praying about it um Sarah's Mother Elizabeth references that Joseph had told them the story of the angel that the most profound secrecy must be maintained which would likely be a reference to the angel with the drawn sword as we talked about so this is Joseph Smith going to um parents and saying I need to marry your daughter or an angel is going to destroy me and so in this case he's not telling it to the girls but he's telling it to the parents who are resisting and I think that really shows again how Joseph Smith especially as he does his proposal starts to understand what buttons he needs to push to get people to to submit and they're married on July 27 1842 um which puts Sarah at 17 years old and Joseph at 36 years old so he's over double her age um Joseph provided her father uh Bishop Newell K Whitney a revelatory marriage ceremony to conduct the wedding which included Promises of exaltation for the entire family just as Joseph Smith promised to Helen Mark Kimball and her family um in exchange for the daughter in a polygamous marriage all right Alicia any feedback on this one um I mean I just think we're seeing patterns here fathers in leadership he's also you know the parents are also an integral piece of connecting this relationship um yeah I think it's just another pattern to me well on the level of secrecy we'll talk about in the next slides but um yeah I think this is all just really important to look at I mean I just think it's interesting that God's going to command something that's going to require this level of sneaking around that's what really occurs to me with the Whitney story it's just like holy smokes you know like you said Japan there's um like if God is really able to do all these things all these stories we see of God commanding people and the story of Laban and just all these stories throughout the Book of Mormon of God facilitating a way to you know bring to pass his um his work and His glory you know and it's just like wow this is a lot of sneaking around and hiding and secrecy in order to make this happen so it just seems all right well let's go to that slide uh the secrecy even within the family of Sarah and Whitney yeah and so this is one of those things um that really shows that Joseph knew what he was doing and he knew where he needed to keep secrets so basically this information would not get out and so not only is this marriage kept from his wife his first wife Emma Smith but even family members of his Brides so Helen Mark Kimball recalled that Joseph was afraid of Sarah's brother Horus eventual husband of helamar Kimball um so Joseph was afraid that um Horus would disapprove of the marriage so he sent him East on a mission before the marriage ceremony would occur so we have another instance of Joseph sending someone on a mission uh before doing a polygamous marriage in this case to marry um a sister in addition to sending off Sarah's brother Joseph Smith wrote a somewhat famous letter to the Whitney family which is often cited by critics against Joseph as it contained language that appears to indicate that Joseph was looking for a sexual encounter with Sarah in the letter Joseph Smith asks the Whitney family to burn it after reading but they did not follow that and so we have the text of the letter now okay anything else with that Alicia not for me Alicia anything on that one well the thing that stands out to me about that letter too is just the hiding from Emma it's so gross but I think we're going to talk about that next all right well let's jump to it then uh Joseph's letter to the Whitney family so this is Joseph Joseph's words this is Joseph Smith's letter to them yeah can I read it yeah go for it all right here we go um dear and beloved brother and sister Whitney I take this opportunity to communicate some of my feelings privately at this time which I want you three eternally to keep in your own bosoms for my feelings are so strong for you since what has passed lately between us at the time of my absence from you seems so long and dreary that it seems as if I could not live long in this way and three would come and see me in this my lonely Retreat it would afford me great relief of mind if those with whom I am Allied do love me now is the time to afford me sucker in the days of EX in the days of exile for you know I foretold you of these things I am now at Carlos Granger's just back off brother Hiram's Farm it is only one mile from town the knights are very pleasant indeed all three of you come and see me in the four part of the night let brother Whitney come a little ahead and knock at the southeast corner of the house at window it is next to the cornfield I have a room entirely by myself the whole matter can be attended to with most perfect safety um I it is the will of God that you should comfort now in this time of affliction or not at uh or not at uh at all now is this time or never but I have no need of saying any such thing to you for I know the goodness of your hearts and that you will do the will of the Lord when it is made known to you the only thing to be careful of is to find out when Emma comes then you cannot be safe but when she is not here there is the most perfect safety only be careful to escape observation as much as possible I know it is a heroic undertaking heroic undertaking but so much the greater friendship and the more joy when I see you I tell you all my plans I cannot write them on paper burn this letter as soon as you read it keep all locked up in your breasts my life depends on it upon it one thing I want to see you for is get the fullness of my blessings sealed Upon Our Heads and you will pardon me for my earnestness on when you consider how Lonesome I must be your good feelings know how to every allowance for me I close my letter I think Emma won't come tonight if she don't don't fail to come tonight I subscribe myself your most obedient affectionate companion and friend Alicia you're biting your biting your knuckles why are you biting your knuckles well first of all I was so glad that you didn't ask me to read that one so thanks for taking that one John why why are you glad oh just because grammatically it's just a nightmare to read right there's like all kinds of spelling errors and anyway um but also has it crossed your mind that like the Whitney's read this and they just like completely took it seriously no shade to the descendants of the Whitney family I know all of these people were so deeply indoctrinated but how could you possibly read that and seriously just think like this is a man of God it's so it's so bad it's comical well why don't you for those for those who may have gotten lost in all the text what's your summary Alicia of what Joseph's saying here and then Mike I want you to add anything if Alicia leaves anything up wait I didn't I didn't hear what you said what's your summary of what Joseph's asking in this letter oh my summary of it is um maybe I'm off base here but my summary is hey I'm going to be by myself at this time this is the room I'm going to be in I love you guys so much please come and visit me and bring your daughter and I'm going to be in this room by myself make sure Emma doesn't catch you that's the that's my breakdown did I do you think is that how you read it also like what you would you add anything to that Mike no I it's one of those things where it's like I know people go ballistic When you mention that that letter is implying sex and I I get it because he's using carefully worded language but the the deal is if it's truly not if there's no chance of him wanting a sexual encounter with with his wife one of his wives why is he wanting Emma not to be there because remember I talked about this um the why sorry the mom of Sarah is Elizabeth I'm so sorry I'm fumbling here Sarah and Whitney's mom is Emma's second counselor in the Relief Society so why in the world if Emma Smith is there and if this has nothing to do with any chance of sex would Emma not want to see them do you know what I mean like this is just a family coming to visit Joseph when he's in hiding now I've heard uh apologists will say well the reason is because if Emma's there then people are watching and so if more people go it's gonna draw attention where Joseph is but I don't agree with that either because no one's watching the Whitney so if Emma's already there and the Whitney's come and go without Emma it's like so you know it's um it's just it's one of those things where it work at the best best case for the letter it shows the deception he's using with his wife even in these last days of his life uh to make sure she doesn't know what he's up to and I think that is just it kind of shows what where Joseph's priorities are and um with regard to Emma they're not good easy to dismiss this musician that Emma was in like it really is just so heartbreaking there was a story I want to say it was fun Brody um that someone gave an account and of course it was a secondhand account but um I think it probably was true and it really Paints the picture of Emma knocking on the door where she believes that Joseph is with um Emily Partridge I think it was and was just knocking on the door and repeating her name over and over again Emily Emily Emily you know and so they're in this mansion house together and there's all this stuff going on behind Emma's back and I just can't imagine what that must have been like for her and there's so many holes in this story we don't really understand why you know why Emma denied that polygamy happened and you know but I'm I'm guessing that there just must have been a level of almost humiliation um and feeling um betrayed it and I just such a mixture of emotion so I laugh at times but really it's just because it's such an uncomfortable topic and it really was so horrific um and this situation with the whitneys is just another it's just another piece in the puzzle so was he you know calling Sarah in to have sex with him in this bedroom because he's by himself I mean we can only imagine what was supposed to happen but we see this level of deception and it's just really really sad I think that sums it up for me pretty well super sad I don't this language of I want to see you for is get the fullness of my blessings sealed upon your heads you know that combined with like I'm a lonely and don't you know don't make sure you know Emma doesn't see you it's just this weird it's like I want to have sex with your daughter don't let Emma know but I want to give you the fullness of the blessings it's just a it's this triple combination of of what I think is is awfulness so well you know and again we'll go back to the angel with a drawn sword the word that the angel supposedly uses is obeying the Commandment fully and here we've got fullness I mean there are a lot of words that seem to point that way and again Emma is so close with Sarah's mom so why would you not want Emma there if they're visiting unless it's because you're dealing with the fact that she's your wife and you want to do wife and husband things I mean I I think that to me is the biggest tell it's not like you're inviting someone that Emma doesn't know and Emma's like who is this girl you know like in the movies where you see like some guy get caught cheating and she's like who's this skank it's not like that this is a family that Emma is super close with and Joseph Smith is going out of his way to make sure Emma doesn't know because of the fact that he's trying to hide what he's doing with Sarah and Whitney and unfortunately with the complicency of the parents yeah all right well let's jump to the next slide which is Joseph creates a sham marriage with the Eternal bargain is this a different share marriage than the one we've already discussed it is indeed yeah so this one's an interesting one because this again goes to show the length of secrecy and the bargaining that Joseph Smith uses and and when we talked about the beginning of the episode Alicia said you know women are property and this is another part where you could show that Joseph Smith kind of views the women in these marriages almost looks like his property and bargaining tools and and uh favors as as I know um Lindsey Hansen Park mentions a lot in her podcast so um Joseph Smith is working to conceal this marriage to Sarah and Whitney from the public so what he has to do is find another man who's going to basically pretend to be married to her so that it takes the attention off of Joseph and so he goes to Joseph Kingsbury and creates a basically a sham wedding with Sarah and Whitney and in doing so promises that Joseph Kingsbury can be sealed to his um dead wife and so Joseph Kingsbury says on the 29th of April 1843 I according to President Joseph Smith Council and others agreed to stand by Sarah and Whitney as supposed to be her husband and had a pretended marriage for the purpose of bringing about the purposes of God in these last days as spoken by the mouth of the prophets Isaiah Jeremiah Ezekiel and also Joseph Smith and Sarah Anne should receive a great glory honor and eternal lives and I also should receive a great glory honor and eternal lives to the full desire of my heart and having my companion Caroline in the first resurrection to claim her and no one have power to take her from me and we shall be crowned and enthroned together in the Celestial Kingdom of God enjoying each other's Society in all the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and so this is another area where Joseph Smith is using his perceived authority to get people to do what he needs them to do in exchange for promises he never has to deliver this goes all the way back to our first episode on Treasure digging in this case Joseph Smith is holding a fake wedding between Joseph Kingsbury and Sarah and Whitney to keep the public off of his track in exchange for Kingsbury Simplicity Joseph Smith promises that he will be able to be sealed to his deceased wife in the afterlife which of course Joseph never actually has to deliver wow so he's staging a fake marriage of Sarah Whitney with some other dude so that so that he can hide his marriage to her is that right yeah what do you think Alicia uh what occurs to me here also is just this common thread of playing on and people's emotional distress you know promising Joseph Kingsbury I wasn't familiar with the story by the way before I prepped for this um but yeah it's like can you imagine presenting this as a Sunday school teacher like well you know he made this Arrangement so that it looked like she was married to him instead um but also just playing on the um of the heartache of Joseph Kingsbury having lost his wife and he's willing to do this because um he wants to be with his wife in the eternities and that's another Common Thread that we see in the church that people are so um desperate to be with their loved one that they've lost that they're willing to you know I mean this is this is the whole uh selling point Sorry I'm I know that probably sounds offensive but it really is the selling point Eternal families so we see this um in the instance of Joseph Kingsbury and didn't he also at one point try to be um uh reimbursed for the finance yeah he was yeah he tried to get reimbursed for caring for I think and they wouldn't give it to him I think that's how it went yeah so this wasn't like a living relationship this was you know yeah did it because he wanted to be with his wife and that's sad in the world I don't know how anybody can feel okay about this the Optics of this or just yeah and you know it's hard to read too much into people's words sometimes but Joseph Kingsbury says and no one have power to take her from me and I could just picture Joseph Smith being like Joseph uh or yeah Joseph Kingsbury right uh Joseph Kingsbury hey um if you don't do this some other dude could take your wife from you in the eternities and you don't want to see your wife having sex with this other dude for eternity so you probably should do this favor I'm asking of you because I can make sure you get it it's just it's really you know I'm sure someone would listen to me say that and say oh my goodness you're being so twisting with with this but read this letter and look at how Joseph Smith appears to be proposing to him which is to say if you will have the Sham wanting to protect me from being found out for what I'm doing I'm gonna make sure you can be with your wife and make sure that no one else can take her from you in the eternities which again is yeah it's just it's it's very coercive not just to the women in this case but to this guy because he's grieving and Joseph uses that to exploit him to basically have to to live a fake marriage with another woman for a long time to cover up what Joseph's doing it's this is a bigger implication than just some wedding day he has to like be his pretend husband and wife for years and uh that has a lot of a lot of things that happen Beyond just one day of a fake wedding okay at least anything on this one or should we go to the next slide yeah I think go to the next slide we've got more good insights on the next slide too so we've got a quick recap of the deception of the Sarah and Whitney marriage yeah so just to recap this is this fake marriage was indeed held and Kingsbury lived in the Whitney home to provide cover to the public that they were husband and wife but in reality Sarah Ann was Joseph's in every sense of the word even upon Joseph's Miss deaths Sarah Ann Whitney was married to Heber C Kimball not Joseph Kingsbury um to recap kind of the deception here Joseph sent Sarah Anne's brother on a mission because he knew that Horus might disapprove of the marriage sent a letter to the whitneys to visit only when Emma was gone held a fake marriage for Sarah Anne to deceive both his wife and the church and all the members you know all of his followers and then promised Joseph Kingsbury exaltation with his deceived deceased wife for being complicit in the lie and so that's a lot of a lot of work to do here to have another polygamous marriage I mean if if uh how old how old was Sarah and Whitney I don't know like I almost want to think that this this one marriage has almost every problematic element of of Joseph's Behavior because you know the parents are involved their promises versus threats there's sending people on missions there's creating fake sham things Emma doesn't know and if she's underaged and it's polyandrous like this might be the grand slam of of Joseph Smith's uh problematic Behavior Anna had the um Anna had the angel with the John sword and she was 17. so 17 and yeah 17. that's like you're the most problematic of all I mean I guess Helen Mar would would be a would be a tie and Lucy Walker I think is too but I mean like it just shows like this one has outside of she didn't live with Joseph Pryor but yeah the angel with the John sword uh angel with the John sword getting the parents complicit 17 year old girl sham marriage promising exaltation not just to her family but to Joseph Kingsbury's family it's just all this bargaining going on so that he can marry a 17 year old girl it's just it's crazy to me okay all right well the next slide um is Emma tries to undercut Joseph in the Relief Society yeah and this one is interesting because um it kind of shows that Emma knows something's going on and at the same time she also realizes uh that and she can use the Relief Society to try to undercut it and so on March of 31st 1842 Joseph Smith writes a letter that is to be read to the Relief Society about spiritual wifery that was being practiced by those close to Joseph we're going to talk about that a lot in the next episode that's the John C band of stuff right the John C Bennett stuff and his brother William Smith as well yeah and so Emma was obviously concerned about this and so she's using the Relief Society to try to weed out polygamy and this is from um thinker of thoughts which is by Jonathan Streeter and um so what he did is he did a textual analysis of this statement and if you're watching this the part that is shaded in blue is what Emma is going to leave out of the statement when she reads it and it's really important so I'll also read it carefully for those who have released go ahead and read that because that's some Emma would have read from Joseph do you want me to read the blue part uh that whole quote starting with we have been informed okay we've been informed that some unprincipled men whose names we will not mention at present have been guilty of such crimes we do not mention their names not knowing but what there may be some among you who are not sufficiently skilled in masonry as to keep a secret therefore suffice to suffice it to say there are those and we therefore warn you and forewarn you in the name of the Lord to check and Destroy any faith that any innocent person may have in any such character for do we do not want anybody who anybody one to believe anything as coming from us contrary to the old established morals and virtues and scriptural laws regulating the habits customs and conduct of Faith unless it be by the message delivered to you by our own mouth by actual Revelation and commandment Society okay yes of course so kind of mixed up no no you're good so Emma's going to read the statement to the relief society and what she does is when she reads it she leaves out the Clause where it says um basically we're um do not believe anything is coming from us meaning Joseph Smith and then she leaves out the part where it says unless it be by message delivered to you by our own mouth by actual Revelation and commandment so Emma Smith leaves that out to make it say do not believe anyone telling you that this is from God whereas Joseph Smith wanted it to say do not believe this this is coming from US unless we come and tell you it was from God so she I think is getting the the idea that Joseph Smith is using the idea of Revelation to convince these women to marry and have sex with him and so she leaves that part out so that all the women in Relief Society don't um wouldn't be as open to Joseph Smith coming and saying hey God told me that you're you've been given to me and so it just shows that Emma is trying everything she can to stop what Joseph Smith is doing and it's just it's really sad yeah yeah it's almost like she's adopting some of that scriptural language kind of some of the Kings King James English to try and put out her own prophecies her own you know commandments so to speak well yeah and like this statement is written by Joseph so the fact that she's cutting that out just shows that she knows exactly what he's trying to get to here She Knows by putting that clause and Joseph is saying here's my loophole that we're going to listen to the scriptures unless God tells you otherwise through me Joseph and so she's leaving it out to try to make sure the women don't hear that so that if someone comes to him or if Joseph comes to him later and says hey God gave you to me she'd be like why in the Relief Society didn't you did you tell us not to listen to that you know and so it's it doesn't work obviously but it's just shows that Emma's trying so hard to keep to root this out and it's obviously she's failing at it well let's jump to the Relief Society statement denying polygamy October 1st 1842. yeah and so after this about what six six months later or something they do the statement on October 1st 1842 and um do you want to read this Alicia oh sure let me just expand this real quick we the undersigned members of the ladies Relief Society and married females do certified and declare that we know of no system of marriage being practiced in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints save the one contained in the book of Doctrine and Covenants 15. and we give this certificate to the public to show that J.C Bennett secret wife system is a disclosure of his own make and it's signed M.S Smith president Elizabeth Ann Whitney who Mike you're saying was was married to Joseph no her daughter with her knowledge right with Elizabeth knowledge yeah and then Sarah Cleveland who was married to Joseph Smith Eliza snow who is married to Joseph Smith it looks like what you're saying there Mike is that this statement that Emma sort of like distributes as part of the Relief Society was signed by a bunch of women who were married to Joseph unbeknownst to Emma is that what you're saying yeah it just shows like so she's got two counselors in there like you see in in modern day right so imagine going to your your Release Society meeting on Sunday and having the president going reading a statement about how people shouldn't be doing you know we're not practicing any extramarital Affairs and her two counselors and her secretary are all involved in relationships uh polygamous relationships with her husband I mean it's just sad because Emma doesn't know and these women the two counselors in the secretary are signing a statement that they know is absolute crap and so it just shows all of the deception happening all around Emma I'm sure she realizes there where there's smoke there's fire kind of a thing but at the same time it just shows that one lying for the Lord is a real thing the church repeatedly lies to protect themselves we see that all the time in the early church we see it today um but more importantly in this case Emma is trying to Rally the Relief Society against polygamy and the people that are closest to her are either married and having sex with Joseph or their have a daughter that's married and probably having I think I don't care if Sarah and Whitney was confirmed to have sex with him or not but you know it's just it's really sad and it just shows the level of deception that Joseph Smith is engaging in all around Emma and um I could almost see like cinematically the scene the scene where Emma's reading this to the Relief Society maybe Joseph's behind her and then these other polygamous wives or counselors are all behind them are kind of smiling at each other as Emma's reading it to the Relief Society what's your take on it uh Alicia oh my gosh John we must be so so Zach thought I had I was thinking okay every once in a while you hear about someone who wants to make a film about Joseph Smith's life so I'm gonna say it right now any filmmakers within the sound of my voice you cannot leave this out I mean can you imagine this could be the opening scene of the movie and I guess the question would be like what kind of music is playing is it like comical is it like an epic sadness um but this is just totally wild this is one of the to me craziest moments in Mormon history yeah and it explains why Emma gets so Furious later and why ultimately not only does Joseph you know have to come up with the Revelation to to beat Emma down and threaten her with all these threats but also why he sends Hiram to to tell Emma she wasn't angry because she was just necessarily a person disposed to anger she was angry because she had been made a fool not just by Joseph but by all these women who I'm sure she thought were her friends and then she finds out that you know not only all these friends betrayed her as well but that there were 22 women sealed to Joseph before Emma ever got you know the chance to be sealed to him I'd I'd be furious I yeah you know I mean you just you look like such an idiot and it's so sad because obviously I mean I I not only would you be betrayed by your husband but you're betrayed by those who are closest to you in the church because they're having sex with your husband behind your back I just I can't even imagine and to Alicia's Point yeah like if you were to do it like a a TV series and I'd be I would I've thought of different ways where you could write it and it's really hard to think like you said would it be comical would it be drama would it be a mix and I just I don't even know how you do this because it's so painful to think about and um but yeah and to your point John I want to read this I I thought of this a few episodes ago this is from William Clayton's journal and this is right when everything is going down with Emma this is from August 23rd 1843 and it says um President Joseph told me that he had difficulty with ammo yesterday she rode up to woodworths with them and called him while he came to the temple when he returned she was demanding the gold watch of f I'm not sure whose gold watch that is he reapproved her for her evil treat been on the return home she abused him much and also when he got home he had to use harsh measures to put a stop to her abuse but have finally succeeded this evening I had some more conversation with Margaret and find she is stubborn and disposed to abuse me I feel resolved to break my feelings from her if I possibly can so it's just this is a quote you hear of once while where Joseph talks about how he had to use harsh measures that's from uh William Clayton's Journal who is obviously with Joseph all the time so he's saying that Joseph Smith told him that day that Emos basically gave him a hard time and he had to use harsh measures to put a stop to it so what that means I don't know but just shows the the pain and the you know the torment that goes through what Joseph's doing to Emma willingly behind her back for years yeah and it also helps explain why she would deny polygamy ever happened just because it was such a nightmare yeah and you look like an idiot because you're like yeah he was doing it behind my back for years with people closest to me I just it's yeah it's bad all right well let's jump to now Joseph Smith and the idea of grooming his followers yeah so this is one that's going to probably be uh one that a lot of Believers will feel very emotional towards and I get it um but I think we need to talk about since the word groomers has been used so much recently in different aspects of politics which we're not going to get into but I do want to talk about what people consider to be grooming and if Joseph Smith fits into that and so I was looking online in a very basic definition of grooming is to befriend and establish an emotional connection with another person typically a minor but not always and sometimes the child slash victims family to lower the child's inhibitions with the objective of sexual abuse or activity and so as we've done these these accounts every element of grooming from this definition is evident in Joseph Smith's proposals to these young women not only does he create a highly charged emotional connection with these girls by being the self proclaimed prophet of God but he uses situations where they're living in Joseph's home where they lost a parent and they're extremely vulnerable to teach them the idea of polygamy so that they will be more open to accepting it we have a few of these stories we just talked about today where he works with their families to normalize polygamy often making Grand promises and Bargains in order to facilitate marriages to their children and just to finish again what would you say if this was any other adult without invoking special pleading for Joseph Smith okay um Alicia what's your reaction to that I just I was really glad Mike that you included this um as part of our conclusion for this episode because I think it's so important um and it probably sounds obvious to most people but it's it's important to recognize that predatorial behavior um is usually not scary I mean it's usually charming and lovable and persuasive um and I know not everyone will come to this same conclusion about Joseph Smith um but I think it's important to call out behaviors for what they are and as I go through the history and I dissect it that's what these behaviors look like to me they look consistent with um with grooming yeah yeah and it's uncomfortable I know that it's just it this again we're trying to look at this with what the data tells us and if you're going to use a traditional definition of what grooming tactics are this fits way too perfectly for what Joseph Smith was doing well let's jump to the slide recapping the tactics that might fall under grooming yeah and so we've talked about this at the beginning of this episode again but just to recap the themes that go through a lot of these proposals especially with the younger women um Joseph Smith is going to marry girls that are living in Joseph Smith's house where he has access to them where he's able to kind of condition them and get them ready and prepared for his proposals um using older wives to recruit the younger wives again you're going to have these older wives in a lot of ways are going to help groom these women these young girls to accept something that they know goes against everything that they've ever believed in with regards to what a loving relationship is and um you know what the sanctity of marriage is um proposing to girls that are in vulnerable situations you're often seeing in these cases that a parent died or um you know we have some of them where they've got their you know Brothers sent on a mission or they're being told that if they don't you're going to have an angel come and kill you which is another Point making great promises is in exchange for marriage so you're trying to get them to forego their their moral compass by saying if you do this thing for me I can provide all of these things for you um the angel with the John sir which we just mentioned and so you know just again like if you look at these tactics and you put them as Warren Jeffs or David koresh or even somebody who is running you know Nexium or someone who is running a business where they were doing this to people that were um subordinate to them what would you call it if not grooming another big one is um getting the parents involved too getting the whole family groomed there is a whole family grooming process that goes on yeah because you'll hear in a lot of those stories where they'll actually say yeah the the the the person who was doing the grooming of a child usually uh actually befriended the parents which allowed them to have easier access to the Target and so in this case you've got Joseph Smith we just today we talked about two of them where he is basically um making these marriages happen with the parents consent and like in hella Mars case the mom you could from the her own words the mom clearly thought was was to was horrified by it um and in the Whitney cases they they resisted until the angel with the drawn sword story so this is like like Alicia said this is where you've got Joseph Smith just as we talk about grooming where you're befriending the parents as well in order to gain better access and um not be refused as well because I think a lot of times like for example if my kid was going and I knew there was someone older that was spending a little too much time with him I'd be like dude you got to get away but if that guy befriends me it gives him better access it also kind of takes away some of my resistance and that is what you see in these tactics um that Joseph Smith uses in these proposals that's a great Point Alicia thank you all right well this brings us to the last last slide of this portion on Joseph Smith's polygamy proposals which is the conclusion what's the conclusion Mike yeah so just as we have been discussing throughout this episode um Joseph Smith uses a number of patterns that occur in his proposals all of which I would contend fall very cleanly under the idea and definition of grooming or coercing uh women into situations that they would never engage in without the added pressure of believing that the prophet of God was asking him to do it in the name of God we still have two more episodes to go on polygamy it doesn't necessarily get better from here but I just wanted to leave kind of ironic quote from Joseph Smith it's from DNC 121 verse 39 it says we have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men as soon as they get a little authority as they suppose they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion and it just shows that as Joseph Smith gets more power and more followers in the church he starts to do more and more things that we look at today and go that's insane and um it's just to me kind of feels ironic to read that in DNC 121 because that kind of describes a lot of what Joseph Smith was doing and we've noted previously that that that DNC 121 uh sort of teaching about coercion should apply to God and Jesus too so God shouldn't be threatening Emma with being damned destroyed if she doesn't agree with polygamy God shouldn't be coercing 14 year olds or 16 year olds with threats about their beloved Prophet being murdered by an Angel that you know I think that unrighteous Dominion thing applies to God and Jesus as well as Joseph yeah that's a really great Point yeah so next what's next up Mike so next episode is we have uh the happiness letter to Nancy Rigdon which I will argue is the most important document we have on Mormon polygamy and it's one of the ones that I think the least uh is is just not well known uh by especially by members of the church and and um we're going to um do an episode on that and looking at Jonathan streeter's presentation uh that he did at Sunstone and because we have Joseph Smith's own words it shows us the exact ways that he's phrasing and trying to effectively sell polygamy to women who are rejecting his initial um advances and so I honestly think it's probably the most important document in polygamy of all Mormonism and I think more members need to be aware of it and once they are they can do with it what they want but I think everyone needs to understand what that letter is in the context it was written in all right well I'm just gonna remind everyone as we conclude that they can read all you know there there was somebody in a comment today Mike I don't know if you saw it on YouTube where it's like they found and an error in one of our episodes and they're like oh well Mike in LDS discussions has lost all authority with me because they made a mistake I don't even know if the mistake was accurate but what I said is don't have faith in us in the comments in YouTube I said don't have faith in us we'll look at the footnotes don't believe anything we say believe the source documents and so that's why I'm just gonna say um you know check out all these discussions.com polygamy Dash proposals because we don't want you to just believe Alicia or Mike or me we want you to just look at the evidence and if we make mistakes they're the mistakes of men oh wait am I quoting someone about that was a joke um also I just want to remind people that you can get the entire LDS discussion series either an audio or in video format either on Spotify as a standalone uh series or you can go to uh Mormon stories podcast YouTube channel find the LDS discussions playlist and you can get all those um episodes there all right so um Alicia thank you so much for joining us you're it's so lovely to have you thanks for having me on guys I really have enjoyed the research here I have a disproportionate passion for Mormon history I just think it's so important even as for faithful members to understand the Genesis of maybe some of the um patterns and cultural practices in the church today and where those come from and I you know I think it's important really important so anyway thank you for letting me be part of the conversation and I will say it again I am not a scholar or a historian I literally am just a lifelong consumer of Mormon Doctrine and so um anyway I appreciate being able to put my two cents in um I'm not as well read as Mike who has just done an incredible job with this research and presentation so I've just learned so much through this process so anyway um thank you for uh be part of the conversation we think you're a brilliant woman Alicia and it's so Mormon for women to kind of minimize their contribution and devalue you know what they offer we think you're brilliant and an essential part of this conversation and yeah check out faith unraveled on Tick Tock Alicia does a great job there yeah you did you did great and like you were like immediately the person where I was like I want you to be on these episodes because you're like I said your presentation your approach is just so kind and um so I again thank you for taking all the time to do these episodes with us because I know it's a lot of time and uh it's a goofy you know it's a subject that can be kind of emotional so but you know seriously thanks so much much for being a part of it because it was a huge help for us to have you here and like I said I love the way you approach this stuff I appreciate you guys plus you and Jamie are fun to karaoke with yes we are I'm better at the dancing on the karaoke yeah it's all fun all right thanks again Mike you're brilliant thanks everybody thanks again listeners and viewers for joining us on Mormon stories if you value this content and want to see continue please consider a donation go to mormonsstories.org click on the Donate button at the top of the page become a monthly donor and we'll keep this content around for a very long time to pay it forward be kind to each other be good to each other be loving to each other and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon stories podcast