The Rise & Fall of John C. Bennett Pt 1
Original Air Date: 2024-01-05
This video, titled "Joseph Smith’s Puppet - The Rise & Fall of John C. Bennett - Pt 1," features Mormon Stories host John Dehlin alongside Mike from LDS Discussions, Nemo the Mormon, and researcher Julia from Analyzing Mormonism. The episode serves as the first in a three-part series examining the life of John C. Bennett, a figure the hosts describe as one of the most infamous, scandalous, and essential characters in Nauvoo-era Mormonism 1.
Based on the transcript, here is a detailed summary of the discussion regarding Bennett's meteoric rise to power and his subsequent crash.
Before joining the Mormons, John C. Bennett had a diverse and somewhat dubious resume. He was a Campbellite, a Methodist preacher, and a physician—though his medical credentials were questionable, as he often issued degrees from a university he founded that had no actual classes 2, 3.
The central theme of the episode is the sheer number of high-ranking positions Bennett acquired within just months of his baptism (September 1840 to mid-1841). The hosts suggest this consolidation of power highlights a lack of discernment in Joseph Smith and a dangerous centralization of authority in Nauvoo 8, 9.
Bennett’s titles included:
One of Bennett's most significant contributions was the Nauvoo City Charter. The hosts explain that this charter granted the city extraordinary powers, including the right to issue writs of habeas corpus. This legal maneuver allowed the Nauvoo courts to intercept arrest warrants from outside jurisdictions (specifically Missouri), effectively making Nauvoo a sovereign state and a haven for fugitives, including Joseph Smith 18, 19. The charter concentrated judicial, legislative, and executive power into the Mayor’s hands (Bennett, and later Joseph), eliminating checks and balances 20.
4. Scandals: Brothels and "Spiritual Wifery"
The episode delves into the seedy underbelly of Bennett’s tenure:
5. The Fall and Excommunication
The relationship between Smith and Bennett collapsed in the spring of 1842.
Key Insight
The hosts conclude that there are "no heroes in this story" 32. Bennett was a scoundrel who exploited his position, but he was enabled by Joseph Smith, who utilized Bennett’s lack of scruples to build a political and military fortress. The episode posits that Joseph Smith’s "discernment" failed spectacularly, as he elevated a man who would eventually cause significant damage to the church's reputation 8, 33.
Analogy:The relationship between Joseph Smith and John C. Bennett is likened in the video to a corporate "fixer" dynamic or even the relationship between Vladimir Putin and Dmitry Medvedev. Joseph Smith (the ultimate authority) installed Bennett (the puppet) into positions of power to execute legal maneuvers and consolidate control that Joseph couldn't openly grab himself. Bennett acted as a shield, handling the dirty work of legislation and military organization. However, like many fixers who know too much and become too ambitious, Bennett eventually became a liability. Joseph had to "cut him loose," forcing Bennett to take the blame for the very culture of secrecy and sexual experimentation that Joseph himself had cultivated. 34, 35.
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hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Mormon stories podcast I'm John delin it is uh December 20th 2023 and I'm excited to announce this is a LDS discussions edition of Mormon stories podcast we are going to be covering a three-part series on John C Bennett one of the most infamous and scandalous and problematic and I would say even most important characters in the early history of Mormonism so uh get ready we're going to be talking about abortions we're going to be talking about polygamy we're going to be talking about spiritual wiery we're going to be talking about all sorts of homosexuality in navoo all sorts of stuff that's uh that's un unknown relatively to most people most Mormons definitely really fun and interesting and uh in some cases disturbing stuff and I'm so excited to have back on Mormon stories podcast our two uh our two Compadres when it comes to LDS discussions we have a Mike from LDS discussion.citation integral to to what happens in navoo and it's also something we covered in our previous episodes but it was more about some of the things about him as opposed to kind of giving a more more depth to to what he went through within the church so I think it's going to be a really interesting one and hopefully we'll add to our previous episodes as well and Mike why hast Thou forsaken Us Where Have You Been brother I was so burned out after our last episodes that when we we finished what we had planned we did get through what we had originally planned so it's not like we cut in the middle and I I remember getting done with that one and just being like need a break um and and um our last episode aired more recently and I just want to say before we get going that I have gotten a lot of emails that have been so kind and I will reply to them I have been very busy with work the last couple months so this I think our last episode aired like three or four weeks ago um so if you did email and you haven't heard back I will get back to you I promise um but I just I didn't want to give like a generic reply to people so I figured I would be better off just waiting until I had time to actually reply personally as opposed to just copying and pasting so just want to throw that out there real quick well we're GL to have you back Mike I know my viewership and listenership just uh loves your your work and you've you've been an important part of influencing a lot of people and with that I'm also happy to bring back Nemo from Nemo the Mormon across the pond hey nemoy hi how you doing how's it been how's life not bad I'm I'm enjoying the beard that you've grown it's been so long since since we've done this that and isn't John's beard similar to mine and yet in a very distinct way different let us know in the comments how they differ per ch uh no it's looking great John and it's it's nice to be back I'm giving Boomer energy I think I'm quoting you there I'm giving Boomer energy yeah yeah that's um Nemo you uh you were uh you were analyzing the total views on YouTube of the LDS discussion series and you have some happy news to to share with this yeah well I mean just the ones I'm in because you know that's all that really matters to me uh there's 1.5 million views on those videos so I'm sure the entire Series has got somewhere in the region of 2 million and that's just video not even audio yeah yeah yeah that's probably 4 million and I have so many people I mean a lot of people say that Mormon stories or you know CES letter have been really influential in their journey I have so many people now telling me that the LDS discussion Series has been instrumental in their coming to understand Mormonism better which is a key goal value of the Oba stories Foundation is just informed consent so Nemo and Mike you guys have been a really important part of that so thank you yeah I would just point out real quick that uh 1.5 million views is great but I've been told by a number of people it' be closer to three if Nemo wasn't on them so I I I do have a suspicion that that would be the case no I think people come for the accent I think that's the only reason they're here really they a seminary graduation diploma that's why they come here okay I've got i' i' I'm not making this up either I've had people have said if only you could be a succinct as Nemo you would do a much better I'm like I know I wish I could he does a much better job of getting to the point quicker I'm more rambling so that Nemo's if Nemo could could uh find a way to like teach a course on how to be more suing Cas we'll all try and be like Nemo uh all right so uh really quickly for those those who are joining us new the the purpose of the LDS discussion series is as as neutrally and as dispassionately and as objectively as possible to sort of understand Mormon history Mormon truth claims so that you viewers and listeners can reach your own informed decisions we're not trying to stack the deck we really are trying to look at all sides and uh every once in a while we lose our our cool but our commitment is to try and be as neutral and as objective as possible and with that I'm so excited there's this new person in the bottom right quadrant of our screen who is this person that says Julia Julia who are you welcome and thanks thanks for joining us tell us about yourself um so my name is Julia I I I'm on Tik Tok under analyzing Mormonism and Instagram and YouTube as well so yeah yeah and and you are i' I'd say at this point an amateur historian I guess the fact that we pay you makes you a professional historian well maybe well in I was just gonna say in three weeks I'm going to start my master's degree in history so that's going to be I'm really excited about that so for some reason I thought that was in the fall so you're actually starting in January they they labeled their semesters differently I'm used to the BYU Idaho track so they're like yeah it's it's spring but like it's January so and do you know what you're going to be try right as of now do you know what you're going to be focusing on in your Masters um American history is probably what I'm gon to be focusing on um yeah yeah um yeah you give uh if we're talking about giving you're giving uh sort of um Wanita Brooks uh fwn Brody Vibes you know oh sure yeah I mean I'll I'll take it no but I'll just vouch for Julia if you check out her Tik toks or her Instagrams she is a she is a First Rate thinker and a real promising historian and I'm just honored Julia to be able to be a small part of your emergence onto the Mormon history Mormon studies scene so thanks for joining us yeah I I'd like to just say you know watching what Julie's done um over the last I don't know what how long two or three years she' been posting stuff something like that and she has a very good approach of of going through it and showing the receipts I know that sounds cliche but a lot of times when you see people who talk either from apologetics or critic they'll just State stuff as fact and she's like no no here's this obscure book that has this obscure source and she does a good job of putting it out there and not being obnoxious or purposefully antagonistic and and that's the approach we've been trying to take here is to put these issues out there in a way that's saying here's all the sources you know and we try in every episode to cover the Apologetics and to try to be as I know that no one's going to think oh they're being super Fair to the church but you know we do try to cover everything um and Julie has done a very good job of doing that without having that um kind of you know she she's let me put it this way she's very careful on how she presents this so she's not just putting stuff out there that's garbage and I think um that is such a cool thing to see because she's covering a lot of stuff in way more depth than we've been covering and and finding sources that I certainly haven't seen so it's a very cool thing and and so um for her to put all this together on John C Bennett is very fun because like I said I don't know a lot about him so excited to see all of the in all of the details that maybe I've skipped over myself when I'm trying to read some of these topics so Julia it sounds like you have the mic LS discussion seal of approval endorsement how does that feel I'd like to add mine great yeah be Nemo too me and Julia get on we both bring the receipts like the thing I noticed about Julia short straight away was she's doing the same thing I do which is bring the sources as well and that's always was my Approach and it's recall to see Julia do it and yeah so so I I think I'll say that our plan for 2024 is to do I don't know if we want to shoot for weekly or every other week but we're going to try and just keep the LDS discussion series rocking and hopefully between Mike Julia and Nemo developing their own episodes we'll have some great stuff for you in 2024 and we we don't want to just do this to do it but I do think that there's probably enough content to at least go another year should we try should we try and go another year we'll see we how many how many episodes have we done it's like 40s in the 40s right which is kind of crazy to think about but let's try how about we try yeah and I think um you know one thing that um we've talked about too is just when people have topics they want to hear about you can email John and we could try to see which ones make the most sense to do and also um there are a lot of more current apologetics that maybe would be good to go over just to kind of explain kind of how the Apologetics have moved and then also how they fit into what we do have historically and then um you know with John C Bennett it's you know it's the same thing it's like we're trying to put out there what we have and um you know one of the things I'll say right off the bat too is with John C Bennett and I don't know if the rest of you would agree with me he is a character that if you're an apologist or you're a faithful member the moment you hear his name you're like he's a scoundrel you can't trust anything he says and then if you're a Critic a lot of critics are like he knew some inside information which means everything he says is true and I think what we'll see in this series is that it's never black and white like that and so you have to look at these different topics and then look at the surrounding evidence and the surrounding documents to try to make the best decisions you can but you certainly will not be able to after the series write him off as just some some idiot making stuff up because he has information he would not possibly have been able to get without being uh very well trusted by Joseph Smith yeah well I mean I think we'll find out I think he was co-president of the church at one point in the first presidency so you can't write them off um I so uh so let's let's Dive In um Julia did the research uh for this episode it's going to be a three-part series um I'm super excited uh I'm gonna go ahead and promote Julia to Second Square um because this is kind of her show today whoa whoa whoa whoa but why did that mean I ended up at bottom Square John you want that is that better that okay all right so uh and I'll just say one last thing is it wasn't until I think I was 30 years old lifelong Mormon returned missionary where I ever heard the name John C Bennett at all so the the idea Mike I I don't mean to disagree with you or maybe I do the idea that the average Mormon would think of him as a scoundrel my position would be the average Mormon would have never heard of his name even though he was as important as as you know Sydney Rigden I would say in the Nauvoo time period but let's not steal let's not steal Julia thunder so Julia oh hang on one one one real quick thing is when you're watching this series what I would highly recommend is to read the chapters of the Saints book that covered John C Bennett because that was one of the first experiences I ever had really reading about him and it's very interesting and one of the things I've noticed about Saints about a lot of people who ended up leaving the churches they start off as like this really bright character where the CH you know the the writers of the book are kind of making oh my goodness they were drawn to the gospel they drawn to Joseph Smith and then once they leave they're like this guy was the worst person in the world and so read those chapters along with this to get you know that perspective as well because I John's right most people I don't think heard of John C Bennett unless you're looking into the Step Up my point is more if you read apologetic sources they'll may like oh it's John C Benny you can't trust that guy and I think what you'll see here is you cannot write him off without looking at all the things he knew because he clearly knew that doesn't mean everything he says is true it just means that you can't just write it off because you don't want to agree with what he's saying all right Julia this is your show we're going to try and give you the majority of the time so let's jump in I'll run the slides sure where should we begin yeah so I just wanted to point out that there's two main sources that I'm getting all this all these slides from and and I didn't even think about reading the Saints books I should have done that but so there's two main books and the one of them is this one right here it was published in 1997 is that what the slide says um by Andrew F Smith yeah 1997 yeah right so it's out of print um it's really hard to find I think I had to grab this one on eBay or something like that so I apologize if you guys can't find it while I'm promoting it so stainley scoundrel the life Dr John Cook yeah so this is where this is a great book great source for him and then the next book if you go to the next slide is his own expose where he that he wrote called the history of the Saints or an expose on of Joe Smith and Mormonism and that was published in 1842 so these are the main two texts that I'm getting all this information from other than you'll see other sources coming in but yeah all right bringing the receipts and his own autobiography that should count for something so and we won't go into that very much today because we're talking he doesn't write this till after he's excommunicated so but yeah all right let's jump in okay so John Bennett John C Bennett's time in Mormonism encompasses less than two years so he was baptized in September of 1840 and he was excommunicated May of 1842 but he began a correspondence with Joseph Smith in 1840s so they wrote letters back and forth and you can read all those letters and then he was baptized in September of that year okay all right so think about 1840 four years before Joseph was killed basically all right okay so Prem Mormonism so John C Bennett was involved in the campbellite movement and he was also a Methodist preacher so he's got a background I think a lot of the people in the church have other religious aspects of their background um anyway so Joseph and Joseph Smith and Bennett had actually met In 1832 while he was working with Alexander Campbell but Joseph did not remember him and that so the the letters were sort of them getting reacquainted and people at that this is one thing I think is super interesting so so we'll talk about this more later but John C Bennett he has he's really big with tomatoes and he's really big with chickens and other things but people thought that Tomatoes were toxic at the time but but he was really he knew that they weren't and he was really promoting their health benefits of course he was really incorrect on what they would how they would help you um there's it really doesn't have a lot of eating a Tomatoes aren't really going to help you but he but at least at least he knew that they weren't toxic so I thought that was funny I mean of course part of the Blue Zone diets of the Mediterranean counts something well I mean that's on brand with the early 1800s in colonial America because you know it where were tomatoes developed they were developed in meso America what did what did 19th century early you know Americans think about Native Americans they were dark lome filthy people outside of the Book of Mormon so of course the food that they eat and develop is going to be poisonous and toxic right right all right let's keep going okay so one another thing that's oh hang on there was one more thing okay yeah going so Bennett tried to get a University established in Ohio but was unsuccessful but despite this Bennett Bennett issued degrees from the University without there being any actual classes so this is probably an important part so he's he's basically fabricating these degrees and he's just kind of handing them out um so he's a progenitor of selling online courses like early on he's one of those guys see well it's the educational uh it's the educational equivalent of the Kirtland safety Society right both in Ohio both you know we rejected and did it anyways and uh both ultimately were not a real authorized right no that that's fair yeah I mean at that time in Frontier America you could kind of just do this stuff like I think I think on a serious note you can just there was yeah you were able just into class stuff so Julie by your estimation was he kind of a fraud and a scoundrel before he ever joined up with Joseph Smith would you say that's fair or not fair uh that's kind of a heavy word but probably like even with his own medical license we'll talk about this too but like he he had a certificate that allowed him to to act like a doctor but I don't think he had very much schooling but but the church will say you know like Oh They'll give apologist like oh everyone was doing it so it's fine so like I guess if you want to say it that way you can say oh everyone was doing similar things like people didn't have medical licenses like I don't know so it depends on how you want to approach it all right well let's jump into physician Julie I have one other question for you I don't I don't want to budge in too much but do you know what he was what Joseph Smith and um John C Bennett were working with uh Alexander Campbell On In 1832 because Alexander Campbell was was was ripping the book of morm to shreds at that point that's question I don't I haven't actually delved into that part but that's a really good question I should write that down and we can look for the next one just because I'm curious that was that that was the same year he gave the quote which I've read on these episodes a few times and and it's basically him just bashing uh the fact that the Book of Mormon is I've just got part of it right here but this Prophet Smith through his St Stone spectacles wrote on the plates of Nephi in in the in his book of Mormon every air in almost every truth discussed in New York for the last 10 years he decides all the great controversies and I know he lists all the controversies he's just basically saying Joseph Smith is putting into this Book of Mormon all of these very modern questions that everyone's just wondering about and so that's why I was curious cuz same year I didn't know if there was any more detail there so that was said in 1832 or 18 yeah yeah he wrote uh he wrote uh it says Alexander Campbell delusions in an analysis of the Book of Mormon it was published in 1832 so I didn't I just didn't know if there was like maybe J maybe Joseph Smith was also corresponding basically trying to push back I I didn't know but or maybe they were working before um uh Campbell wrote this later in the year or something I just didn't know if it's said more detail about that well I have to look that up but there's a couple more slides over there's a quote from John C Ben's expose that that that may have something to do with that so we'll I'll bring that up in a second yeah all right let's jump to the physician um does someone else want to read this one go ahead Nemo okay John C Bennett had a certificate that let him practice medicine when he moved to navu he planned to practice medicine there according to his biographer Bennett was not a good physician Joseph Smith III later said that when Bennett extracted his tooth he almost died due to loss of blood even Emma Smith was not impressed by Bennett and refused to take medicine he prescribed when she was sick yeah so yeah so I thought that was really funny that he's his biographer is like clearly he was not a good physician um there's other times where he does help people and he does do a good job so I don't know but anyway maybe we should have physician and quotes in that slide but also back then people were phys Physicians who didn't have the medical background that we expect today so sure yeah again like with the University where he was just giving out certificates for classes that don't exist this yeah I guess that's the point I was trying to make about Frontier America right things were different yeah all right let's talk about his conversion to Mormonism okay so this is the this is the quote that might tie into Alexander Campbell so in his expose Bennett claimed to have never believed the Mormon doctrines which I think is interesting so he says it at length occurred to me that this the shest and speediest way to overthrow the impostor and expose his iniquity to the world would be to profess myself a convert to his doctrines and joined him at the seat of his Dominion I felt confident that from from my standing in society and the offices I held under the state of Illinois I should be received by the Mormons with open arms and that the course I was resolved to pursue would en would enable me to get behind the curtain and behold at my leisure the secret wires of the fabric and likewise those who moved them so is he basically saying it's it's a power play to join Mormonism yeah like I I I want to expose this guy I want to yeah and so if if this is if Alexander Campbell really did say that if he did believe that and Bennett was part of the Camplite movement then this could tie in to say like oh I want to get in there and figure out what's happening like yeah yeah I mean there's a chance that's revisionist and there's a chance that if if it's not revisionist then it questions I guess Joseph's spirit of discernment right yeah to to me this sounds like somebody who is riding down the street falls off their skateboard jumps up and says I meant to do that it just feels like somebody who uh like we'll just put it this way as you go these pres the presentations that Julie's put together if your intention really is to infiltrate Joseph Smith and expose him he did one of the worst jobs you could possibly have done there are so many ways he could have done it if that really was his goal so this feels like an area like I talked about earlier where there's this gray area where you have to kind of decide like where he's um trying to pump himself up versus where he's actually giving good info and that's why it's not all black and white but yeah this this feels very self-serving to me yeah I was going to say and later later in the next in this part two you'll see Bennett sets himself up as the hero in a lot of his stories when he's trying to expose polygamy so like yeah he's just yeah I agree with you he's a he's is is he at times an unreliable narrator is that what we're saying oh yeah oh yeah for sure okay okay all right let's go to this patriarchal blessing okay so I just thought this was interesting because it reminded me a lot of the Lori valow Chad deel type stuff that we're hearing about now and Ruby Frankie and stuff so John C Bennet got his Blessing on September 21st of 1840 so so really quickly after he was baptized um he was blessed to have to have great power among the children of men and shall have influence among the great and Noble even to Prevail on many and bring them to the knowledge of the truth Thou shalt Prevail over thy enemies it went on to say that God's favor shall rest upon th thee in dreams and Visions so um very similar to what we hear nowadays and that he would have power to heal the sick cause the lame to LEAP with to LEAP like a heart the deaf to hear and the dumb to speak so in his Blessing he's being blessed to be a good pH and their voices shall salute thine ears it also promised that thou shalt have power over the winds and the waves and thou shalt obey they shall obey thy voice when when thou shalt speak in the name of Jesus Christ and interestingly his Blessing went not to say that if thou should step aside from the path of rectitude at any time because of Temptation the Lord shall call after thee because of the Integrity of thine heart and thou shalt return to the path from when thou Hast strayed okay well that that's a false prophecy well I think most of this is like if he's not a good physician but he's being blessed to be good and to heal and also to come back once he leaves yeah and I don't think they mean through modern medicine practices I think they're giving him jesus-like powers to heal the lame and they've got a lot of that in the other ones we when we did our episode This Is The Stuff you see where it's just like these are claimed to be Revelation directly from God through these Patriarchs and I don't know if this was given by I don't know who gave him this this this blessing but yeah it just shows again the power of discernment is is is gone you know what's that was Joseph Smith Senior not the patriarch at the time I think so I didn't know if he still was at that point or if he had passed away but um but either way yeah it's uh it's it's definitely another area where you're like this is direct Revelation from God and it's a failed prophecy that that's a problem we we showed that in the the patriarchal blessings episode yeah it just it just shows how unreliable they are I guess go ahead oh I was just gonna say it also made me wonder if if I don't know if other people's blessings say this but to have that in there makes me wonder if if whoever was giving the blessing knew enough about Bennett to know that he was maybe gonna make a run for it or maybe not as reliable or like I don't know I just had that thought too like do they know he's gonna leave yeah and Mike you mentioning past episodes reminds me of something we say every episode which is that it's great if you've joined us for the first time but these LDS discussion series build on each other and you'll get much more out of them if you start from episode one and go in order you can find the playlist on YouTube the LDS discussions playlist and this podcast has its own series both on Spotify and on Apple podcasts and we do recommend you watching them um in in sequence yeah all right Julia should we jump real quick not that it really matters a ton but uh Joseph Smith Senior died seven days before this was given so I don't know who gave it to him but it wasn't him that's not a huge deal but it someone else okay all right I'll have to look that who who that was specifically that gave that all right so now it's time for the of John C Bennett is that right yep yeah the rise all right okay so the nov city Charter is probably the one of the biggest things about John C Bennett he was key in getting the nov city Charter written and passed so Joseph will brag that he wrote it so we can't really we can't blame Bennett for everything that's in there um so he was practicing trying to get things through the legislature and so that's one of the reasons why he was key in this in October of 1840 Benn and Robert Robert B Thompson Joseph Smith's personal secretary were appointed to a committee to draft a bill for the incorporation of the town of navu and other purposes in late November Bennett went to the Springfield to lobby for the bill to incorporate the city of nav the proposed Charter was presented to the Senate and it was strongly supported by many according to Thomas Ford then a Justice on the Illinois Supreme Court the vote was taken the A's and nays were not called for no no one opposed it but all were busy and active in hurrying it through Ford also reported that the bill was never read except by its title so I thought that was really interesting what's interesting what's interesting about that well so the people will say well we'll talk about it later but the there's a lot of problems in the navu city Charter that gives it gives the mayor of navoo the one in charge way too much power and so I think if it had been read people might have been more concerned by it and maybe not have been so enthusiastic to just push it through and so yeah it's just interesting to me that it was never actually read it was just presented because all these places are trying to start up and trying to to yeah just begin like navu and jul your understanding of what a city Charter is and does just for those who don't even know what we're talking about here do you do you even have a way to describe that I don't even know if I if you guys have another maybe it's just like the Constitution for a city the balance of power the the the structure you know the mayor the city council who does what the legal system like I'm guessing it it's everything that would go into the balance of power the governance the rule of law and apparently the this this Charter gave a lot of power to Joseph Smith is that is that basically what we should maybe more than any one man should normally have is that fair to say and there was no common consent really involved even from the very beginning no one really gave a vote um yeah also uh just looking at DNC 135 that would have been hyam Smith as the patriarch okay um would have given that blessing to John C Bennett thanks Deo all right let's go to the next slide on the City Charter continued okay so on their website the church tells us that the navoo city Charter guaranteed the local government's right to pass laws form a city militia and issue rights of habus Corpus meaning the right to appeal arrestment or imprisonment so that's really important the navu charter prevented Joseph Smith's extradition to Missouri and it was very attractive to criminals and this is something I found really interesting researcher Mary Anne Clemens put it this way she says because of the navu city Charter you actually have criminals who are coming in who are purchasing land in NAU who are join the church in some cases and it does seem to be after 1843 after Joseph Smith has definitely proven that he could get out of extradition that they're tightening up the charter and making it harder for people to harder for people to arrest people inside of Nabu so so wait so because the charter was designed to protect Joseph Smith's past dubious Andor criminal Behavior are you saying it became a Haven for other criminals yeah yeah because I think because he's in a different state and Missouri's he's wanted in Missouri for other reasons and so they can't arrest him though and take him out of the state so a lot of people are like oh let's just go to navoo and then we'll be safe there wow yeah that yeah so there's a lot of power way too much power in this navoo city Charter Nemo can I throw a little contemporary topic up there real quick um I've I've often said that one of the reasons um the church struggles with abuse and the case of abuse and condemning certain things is because if you were to look at the life of Joseph Smith you would also have to condemn some of his actions um some of his inappropriate uses of power to try and gain sexual favor with women and and sex and such um and what I'm seeing here is almost a metaphor for what the church is going through right now with things like the Bisby case where they're saying well there's a Doctrine uh that prevents bishops from telling the telling the authorities about abuse and the church is therefore applying the exemption based on that Doctrine now if people know that that Doctrine exists and if the church keeps getting impress about this it could almost become the sort of place and I've said this before the church doesn't want to be seen as a place where abusers can come and get away with it because you don't want to attract those kinds of people who under the pretense of trying to join the church know they're going to have access to uh vulnerable people and you've got the same thing here with this Charter you've got oh criminals have realized if I go to navu and do stuff I won't be taken out of state to you know face my my crimes or whatever great awesome I'll go there the church does not want that again but because they have a they have from their founding and you know from Joseph Smith's time doing putting this Charter together unfortunately by trying to protect themselves they have made uh this people can come just like boy boy scouts was a Haven for pedophiles navu became a Haven for criminals that's powerful yeah essentially yeah yeah all right Julia uh let's talk about apologetic discussion of the navu city Charter yeah do someone want to read this top quote uh I'll I'll do it this time and then Mike can do the next one um so this is the fair Mormon navu City Charter for those who don't know Fair Mormon is the apologetic one of the apologetic Mormon institutions and it says quote the navu charter granted great power to the city but it was not unique in this respect uh in other words they did bad things too uh so it's not so bad the other charters in Illinois were similar NAU's court system was more more restrictive than other cities since it was under the jurisdiction of the Country Court while other cities were not the powers granted navu were not seized by the Saints they were granted lawfully and could have been removed lawfully by the legislature um all right we talk about that for a second why are we laughing because it's basically like saying oh well the exemptions we gave that we got to protect ourselves well they were legal it's the same thing the church does with abuse now it's like well hey hey hey we obeyed the law but that but fair Mormon time and time again or sorry to be correct they're not fair Mormon anymore because Mormon is a victory for Satan so they've rebranded they're just fair now um they they have gone down this route of well the rules were followed doesn't matter if it was moral or not and I think actually the church needs to do a better job an apologist needs to do a better job of expecting the church to be a moral Arbiter because CU that's the function that the religion should serve not just well the church obeyed the law so nothing bad happened here because things can be legal but not necessar moral well and it reminds me too of like when you have in in the US especially I'm sure it's true um for you Nemo but they'll pass this massive bill right and then like three days later someone will be like what the crap was thrown into this state into this bill in the last minute they'll throw all the spending or all these little laws in there and then people are like well you can't complain about that because Congress passed it it's like well Congress didn't read it so they didn't know it was in there and it's the same thing here where it's like it sounds like um they got the charter passed without reading the bill and then the the fair Mormon now is saying well they passed it dude don't it's not you can't complain about it but it's not really examining the fact that they wrote it intentionally to be um protecting Joseph Smith and from a Believer standpoint you can make the argument that Joseph Smith was being chased by Missouri and that it was a necessary thing to do I'm not g to argue that one way or the other I'm just saying that you can't blame um I guess the circumstances when they clearly wrote a very powerful Charter and got it passed without reading it um I just feel like it's it's a bit of a u i don't I don't know what the word would be almost like a def to to yeah it's just a bad argument yeah Julie what were you gonna say oh yeah and there's more there's more on the slide too so yeah just those two things yeah it's like everyone's doing it so we're okay everyone's got bad Charters and then like what you just said Mike is like um hang on I'm spacing what was it was well it was legal so what's the problem okay yeah so yeah it's almost like it's almost like saying well we made it a super powerful Charter but no one else caught it so you know what are you gonna do it doesn't make it right it just it they're right in the sense of they got it pass lawfully but they're also ignoring the fact that was also on the slide which is that people did notice at the time yeah everyone else is doing it everyone else is doing it argument is an appeal to popularity and it just doesn't wash yeah especially when you're supposed to be God's one true church which we've talked about in so many circumstances it it really is one of those arguments that at some point you just roll your eyes because it's like it doesn't make it right it just makes it what other people are doing that you're also you know the church at one hand is like everyone else is so corrupt on the other hand well everyone else is doing it too it's like which is it you know pick your pick so yeah all right what anything else from the second half of that slide Julia yeah I just want to read I'll just read the second part so several contemporaneous newspapers so the church is trying so farore is trying to say everyone was doing it it's fine it was granted but I just wanted to point out several contemporaneous newspapers including the Warsaw signal and the sangon journal along with John C Bennett and even William lot in the navitor criticized the amount of power the novo City Charter granted the Saints and their leader so regardless of whether the charter was unique or not it gave Joseph too much power and so like yeah it people back people during that time did not like this yeah it's like yeah it's like the argument I'll make this real quick but they'll say with polygamy well polygamy wasn't technically illegal at the time which you know it was but whatever or you know marrying a 14-year-old or 15-year-old girl wasn't illegal it's like people noticed at the time this was wrong so you can't make the argument that it's presentism or whatever it's like people did notice they slipped it through and so for fair to make the argument that it was totally legal it really is skipping over really important details which they would point out if the argument was was being made the other way around all right let's go to Abraham Lincoln weighing in yeah I just thought this was interesting so even Abraham Lincoln who whose name the Mormons had erased from the Electoral ticket in November had the magnet magnanimity to vote for the Bill he came forward after the final vote to congratulate Bennett so I just thought that was interesting so Bennett has a or not Bennett Abraham Lincoln has a little bit of play in Mormon history and the Mormons didn't like him um but he was just like hey congratulations on getting this Charter passed and I just thought that was interesting what a nice dude yeah all right let's go to the quartermaster General yeah so Bennett served as a Quarter Master General from 1840 to 1842 and does does somebody want to give a definition of what a Quarter Master is go for it Mike uh a quartermaster General is a staff officer in charge of supplies for a whole Army he is in charge of quartermaster units and Personnel um so those tasked with providing supplies for military forces and units okay yeah he's like HR and Warehouse into one yeah it's like a logistics officer kind of thing right so but then he gets then he gets a promotion so let's talk about him becoming mayor of navoo that's a pretty big deal yeah yeah so on February 1st of 1841 Bennett John C Bennett was elected the first mayor of navoo he set five priorities for his initial agenda as mayor so the first one he wanted to prohibit all bars tippling houses and dram shops so those are all places that sell lakor and the second one was to create the navoo university because he has background in in starting schools he does such a great job um number three is to organize the navu legion four was to construct a wing dam in the Mississippi and five was to drain the lowlands bordering the Mississippi so really quickly people raised Mormon not aware of its history or wondering why Joseph City the the the pure City created by Joseph Smith in his final four years why they would have bars tippling houses and dram shops at all uh I think that's curious right given the word of wisdom and and the way Mormons are today is it fair to say that John C Bennett would have never been made mayor without Joseph's consent is that fair to say Julia yeah I would think so and and uh the his biographer points out that and we'll talk about this too that even though he was the mayor Joseph was the one pulling the strings he's like the puppet and Joseph is the puppet master so so yeah I would say that he would not have been put as mayor without Joseph okay yeah and this is one of those things just to keep this this slide I know it doesn't have a ton of specifics about the Mormon church but keep this slide in mind as we go through the series because John C Bennett is not becoming mayor Nauvoo unless he is one of the most trusted people that Joseph Smith has and that's just what John said he's not getting there without Joseph Smith he's being put there on very deliberately so you got to remember that as we go through this because again as apologist want to say oh he was just a scoundrel who did all these horrible things without anyone knowing about it it's like no he was clearly trusted and was clearly involved in everything going on at this time and the the I just want to point out that the ban on alcohol and whatnot didn't last particularly long um uh I'm just looking at Fair's website now on the 12th of December 1843 the city council in NAU passed a law allowing the mayor I.E Joseph Smith at the time to sell Spirits so when Joseph set up a bar in the navi mansion house uh a bar a house whose size and construction and all of that jazz was dictated from On High by Revelation um down to how much money people could put into it uh which we've gone over in an episode um the bar that was established in that for weary Travelers was made legal by the council in 1843 so it didn't last Nemo I I find your presentism disturbing hey hey I'm just saying what happened I'm kidding yeah you know apologist would say we can't apply modern Mormon Moray on Word of Wisdom to the navu period it was it was not made a commandment until later indeed you know yeah well Joseph drank the night before he was marted and that's all we need to say on that matter really it was a different all right Julia let's talk about the navoo city council yeah so the navoo city council is made up of these different individuals and so J so John C Bennett was the mayor and there's four aldermen there's William Mars NE K Whitney Samuel H Smith and Daniel H Wells and then they have nine counselors and Joseph Smith is one of them ham Smith Sydney Rigden Charles C rich John T Barnett Wilson law Don Carlos John P Green and Vincent Knight so I recognize a lot of these names because they're they're husbands of the wives Joseph later takes but anyway yeah so it's just it's just setting up the council and how who's in charge of of what in Abu I don't know if it's right but they it seems like some of those names are also implicated in the Mountain Meadows Massacre for some reason uh Daniel Wells and Charles rich I don't know if that's right I don't know either but at least Daniel Wells is the lore on that list who's the law on that list again there's Wilson law who's William Law's brother he's William Law's brother I I was gonna ask his relative of William okay all right so any anything significant about that list other than what polygamy and possibly Mountain Meadows um yeah that's Joseph's brother L some nepotism right Joseph's brother yeah that's true John C Le Don is Joseph's brother so kind of stacking s Sydney Rigden and hyam oh hyam so Don Carlos ham so there's like there's a lot three of Joseph's family John Bennett's brother that's like almost 50% nepotism right there that's funny new K Whitney's significant was it his store his his store place the of the church yeah all right let's go to uh the roles of the mayor in navoo yeah does someone want to read this one I think it's Nemo's turn I'll tell you that the principle of separation of powers among the executive legislative and judicial branches of government was not built into the navu charter oh boy uh the mayor's primary responsibility was to preside over the city council in addition the mayor served as the Chief Justice of the navu court of appeals with the alderman acting as associate justices whilst this lack of check checks and balances Was Not Unusual in Illinois at the time and in many communities today it did lead to a concentration of power in the mayor's office since Bennett had written the legislation placing power in the hands of the mayor and then immediately run for office one might conclude that Bennett was power hungry whatever the structural Arrangements of the city government the power behind Bennett was Smith I think that is a very fair point is that even if this looks like it benefits Bennett the person It ultimately benefits is Joseph Smith because he is the one controlling things keeping things and I'm gonna I'm going to pull my card as a political science major and as a former Watcher of Schoolhouse Rock as a child we we all we all know that the the United States government and and probably we got this from from Great Britain is divided into three main branches right executive legislative and judicial and they're intentionally separated so that they can be a counterbalance so if the executive branch gets too powerful the combin of the legislative and the judicial can override and keep a balance a separation of powers between the three branches but if the if the mayor of navoo is the head of the city council which is the legislative body and if the mayor of navu is also the Chief Justice it's literally a monarchy which which Nemo I think you'll agree is not necessarily a good thing or or am I wrong I would I would absolutely not say things against the idea of monarchy uh a public forum no I think you're absolutely right that I I I said oh boy I couldn't quite hold myself back from reacting to just how bad a concentration of power that is to have someone with fingers in that many pies and with no checks and balances um because we have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men as soon as they get a little power as they see it they begin to exercise unrighteous Dominion ain't that right Joe well go ahead go ahead mik I was just gonna say when we did our episode like on the priesthood restoration that was one of the things I point out when you look at the Timeline Joseph Smith is continually coming up with Revelations that set himself above above above every time there's someone else who's like no I'm I'm at the same Authority as she's like not anymore just got Revelation and and this feels like now that they have an actual City to run that exact same approach is coming where he's like okay I'm making it so that I can do whatever I want and basically it's now cified in the law so there's no one who can really stop me and so it definitely is as Julie pointed out feels very intentional that John C Bennett helped write the charter became the mayor it's almost like he was writing this knowing that he was taking it over can I ask a really really quick aside and um we don't have to go into detail at all but obviously Salt Lake City and Utah as a state more generally has its history founded by Mormons we've seen here what happens when Mormons write a city Charter what is the city Charter of Salt Lake like or generally I've have idea but I think it's more traditional there's a mayor there's a governor of the state um he he is more of the the executive you know officer but but there's a there's a a house and a senate a by all that stuff a by CA legislature yeah I was just wor about the city of Salt Lake where whether it's Charter is a little bit quirky but oh say I think it's the same type of thing there's a mayor there's a city council I don't think the mayor is the head of the city council um no so good question Nemo I'm just going to also say it's a little bit ironic that especially since the rise of Eder Benson that but also with the doctrine of Covenant that generally Mormons believe that the that the US Constitution is inspired of God and you know in modern day times what's that D jokes did a whole talk on it a couple conferences ago the divinely inspired United States Constitution sorry yeah so I guess it's a little bit weird to me that we would we would hold up the US Constitution as being inspired and it's structured as a as a tramal sort of as a three three-part balance government but then in the government that Joseph Smith custom builds he really seeks to erode uh the balance of power that's a weird irony and and freaking Julia we haven't given you any any space toine on this so Julia anything you want to say about this slide we apologize no you guys cover that really well can you can you show it again okay yeah covered that really well okay all right yeah all right so let's go to University of navoo university of johy Bennett yeah so the University of Nauvoo was founded in 1841 so wait I just want to say something too so I'm I grew up in Missouri so navu is not very far and I grew up going to navu all the time like it was like almost every year every other year as a child and I've never I had never heard of the University of navu when we just went um a year ago with my like as an ex Mormon um and yeah never heard of this so this is all new to me cool yeah anyway okay so it was founded in 1841 Terell given wrote the University of navu was founded in an era when as Richard hoffstead writes most colleges were precarious little institutions um domination domination ridden poverty stricken in fact no colleges at all but glorified high schools or acade AC ories that presumed to offer degrees Nava University had no campus but it was still a university in more than aspiration so I thought that was interesting so so it's not really so it's just a it's what you think of like home almost like homeschool I guess there's no real campus for this yeah interesting all right and then in January of 1841 Joseph Smith wrote the University of Nauvoo will enable us to teach our children wisdom to instruct them in all knowledge and learning in the Arts science and learned professions we hope to make this institution one of the great Lights of the world and by it and through it to diffuse the kind of knowledge which will be practiced which will be practicable gotot sorry which will be practicable utility and for the public good and also for the private and individual happiness so what does all that mean I liked that quote I liked it was like gaining knowledge and things like that I think it's interesting that how quickly the um university failed um but I do appreciate his saying that the aspirations the intentions had at least some good to them right right yeah I mean mormonism's Co code is often like the glory of God is intelligence right I don't think it's fair to say the Mormon church against education I just think they're against education that might deteriorate Faith right otherwise I think the church is generally Pro education well and I push that a little bit with with as far as women in regards to women getting an education I I feel that's very different than than a man's education so I'm so glad you're in our panel Julia otherwise we would have sailed right past that it makes me think of BYU though right and it it seems like a patent time and time again um that Joseph Smith will try some things and they will fail uh and I think this is where Brigham Young was very successful as an organizational mind that he was able to actually bring to pass a lot of things that Joseph Smith tried to do wasn't able to necessarily do so you've got now Brigham Young University uh which is I mean could I call it a Shining Light um it's John zma matter but still hey watch out Nemo be careful very careful what is it a cougar is that what they call you is you watch out Nemo you're treading on thin thin ice actually I'm three times I'm I'm three times the aie of Utah State University I have three degrees technically three degrees from Utah State and one from BYU so I'm three times the Aggie that I am the cougar what's an Aggie Utah state is the it's agricultural person oh I see anyway we're off track but no but the point is that you know like you said education is of a value and when the church was able to set up a university properly they have done and it has continued and and worked they've tried to set up Navi University Again by the way I was just doing a quick bit oh I think was it 2016 I think I did or something like that9 to 2010 it lasted one year and then they kind of turned it into a bit of an online program that kind of is just lost to the ages fascinating I wonder why that didn't take off they cited insufficient funds and donations as the reason for its closure which if the church had wanted it to succeed they could have money to that if only there was a place that had money there's nobody in NAU there's no maybe there's nobody so I don't I don't know if that's a good argument universities are super expensive I I for some reason I think BYU costs the byus cost the church like a billion dollars a year if you add up all the I and I'm making that number up but it's a lot of money so it's a non-trivial thing to try and run a division one reputable University you know yeah all right let's go to the next slide on University of navu Julia okay so the university plan to offer languages German French Latin Greek and Hebrew mathematics chemistry geology literature in history so a lot of the things you'd expect a university to offer The Faculty included Sydney Rigden Orson Spencer and Orson Pratt the president of the University of Utah so the the current president now David P Gardner or the 10th President I mean he believes that it was probably superior to the average secondary schools of the time so he's saying you know this was an actual good thing that was happening on August 16th of 1841 the times and Seasons announced that the department of English literature is now in successful operation and advised that the University was ready to offer a general course of mathematics including arithmetic algebra geometry and it lists off a bunch of other things so one thing that I think is interesting and then they later added a music department so it seems like it was taking off well and or at least according to their newspaper so it's even got it's even got a differential and integral calculus astronomy chemistry like that that would have been dangerous if it had continued for too long they've done astronomy and like start talking about the effect of cob on interplanetary bod exactly got to shut that I don't want to swear but you got to shut that down yeah well I mean and on that with the with the six-foot Quakers on the moon have been eligible to enroll you know that was also a believed thing at the time by some of the individuals on the faculty so for them be teaching about astronomy would have been dangerous indeed I think well and then like take Joseph's take on Hebrew too is an interesting thing sorry that's what I was going to say no I was going to say that the Hebrew thing would be amazing because you'd start learning that all of the things Joseph Smith is pulling from the Bible they have done courses in reformed Egyptian yeah exactly and that's you know not to be sinere question I'm not being funny no I mean it is that's the thing like if they had had curriculums on their own scriptures I would kill to see those because they would look so bad in 2023 because now we know so much more about the history of the Bible and the history of of the Book of Mormon itself and you know that it would this would be very bad and I so I wish they had done it because I wish we could have more documentation to actually compare against um what we know today so kind of wish it had survived well to some degree I still feel like we're kind of doing this this might be off topic but I I went to Bo Idaho and I remember taking one in one of my classes we were learning about Evolution and the professor I don't know why he did this well I guess I know why but he said we're going to learn about Evolution but we know that this is false because of the what our church believes and the church the world being only 6,000 years old and things and how we came from Adam Anie and so he precured everything by saying this is false but then he went and taught us about all these about Evolution and how the the evolution especially of humanity and anyway I thought that was really interesting so maybe they would maybe they would have still presented it that way oh I'm sure they would have because you got they always had that kind of mindset of like oh the world doesn't believe us but we know we have the truth but at the same time I just wish we had it just so we could look at like the curriculum on on egyptology or something like that or like like Nemo said astronomy is such a big thing in the book of Abraham uh to kind of see that almost like doubled down even more would be very interesting so I do wish we had I wish it had survived in that in that regard yeah so uh the Julia this is a little foreshadowing but the next slide is chancellor of the University so what what what are what are Bennett's titles at this point he's mayor he's the head of the militia Quarter Master Quarter Master head of the city council chief judge and now he's going to be like any one of those jobs should be like its own job and yet are you telling us that he was now made the chancellor of the University too yeah yeah that's crazy power and that's too much for any one dude to do but we we see this in the modern church now right we see that not only are members of the quum of the 12 members of the Corum of the 12 they're also head of certain Church boards they're head of certain Church departments they wear several hats yeah um between them so it's it's nothing don't forget home teacher you know don't forget you know Minister Minister always always Minister all right Julia take take it away yes on the third of of February of 1841 he's saying this is from his expose I was unanimously elected Chancellor of the University of the city of navu as well as will here after to appear we are glad to see the action of the Council on the subject of education and that they have chosen the Board of Regents and appointed a Chancellor and register of the University of the city of Nauvoo the appointment we think does great credit to the council and we have no doubt but that the board will will assiduously engage in the great and all-important work of education and that was published in the times and Seasons so yeah he was he's the chancellor of the University so yeah he's got a lot of hats just and if and if that weren't enough we've got more he's Major General now too yeah yes on February on February 4th of 1841 John C was elected Major General and Inspector General in the navu legion this is from the you can find that in the the navu legion minute book and by 1842 the navu legion had become the the largest military unit in the United States and I think that's really important because like that's really intimidating if you think about that if you're not a Mormon Joseph Smith was appointed as the lieutenant general who outranks the major general and Inspector General and the major general typically commands divisions sized units of 10,000 to 15,000 soldiers one of the most shocking things I remember reading about in uh fwn Brody's no man knows my history is just how intimidated the surrounding towns and cities became at this accumulation of power in navu and as I understand it and we may get to this at some point the the navu legion is mar arching around neighboring towns as sort of this display of force to threaten people um to to back off and not interfere in what's going on in navoo and uh you know and of course eventually Joseph Smith orders the printing press to be destroyed the navu Expositor which is an example of the the egregious uh out you know over Display of Power um and and I think Joseph's martyrdom was tied in part to just people around in surrounding towns and in the state being freaked out by this excessive accumulation of power and and the navu legion was a big part of that so this is a non insignificant part of late uh Joseph Smith church history in my view am I right in understanding that the uh charge of treason against Joseph Smith treason against the state of Illinois was for refusing to allow the state uh militia into the city right I don't know and the fact that he the fact he had military force cap I believe I understand that that's part of it because they wanted to come in to sort out what was going on with the burning of the printing press and he refused to allow them in and that and that was treasonous but the size of a militia when you put it into that context that they were the biggest military force at the time that's not an insignificant oh we're not letting you in that's a well there's nothing we can do about it as the state of Illinois so this guy is genuinely dangerous to the Integrity of our state because he has a military force capable of undermining our ability to keep him in check like I I think that's the simplest way to put that that's it's not just that all people didn't like Joseph Smith it's that those actions presented a genuine threat to the St the stability of the state of Illinois yeah yeah and they said uh with the um you know the Martyr Dum after the the Expositor is burned um that some of the people who were involved had I believe said that one of the reasons was they did not believe he would ever be tried in a fair uh trial because they had used so many legal tactics to undermine the ability of them to to extradite him and to to actually try him and so there's this building fear from all the people that are not Mormon outside of there that one they're consolidating power now they're consolidating an army they're circumventing the law and so you have all of these things and it just makes all of these people on the outside uh very like fearful very suspicious and then at some point and and again I'm not saying it's right I wish Joseph Smith had lived I I do not in any way am not happy that was killed I wish he had lived a long life and done a lot more um but that led to that boiling over because all of a sudden you see him getting away with it and it's there's a Breaking Bad uh moment where where Jesse's like he can't keep getting away with this and I think that was what people felt because he had constantly used these laws in Nauvoo to to keep escaping and So eventually you've got an army and all these things it just makes people so afraid and and that leads to to decisions like that which are um unfortunately not good but it is what happens when people get really nervous and they see a grow growing threat yeah any other Insight Julia from you no I think that was good okay well if this if all this weren't enough with John C Bennett's accumulation of power and position he's then added to the first presidency y yeah so on the seventh day of April of 1841 he says I was elected to the first presidency of the Mormon church as will be seen by the reference on the conference minutes published in the times and seasons and then he says Jal it was said so the times and Seasons says John C was presented with the first presidency as assistant president until president rigdon's Health should be restored so he's he's second chair in the church I mean if ever there were a glaring of fracture of of you know knowing knowing what we're going to learn about John C Bennett later if ever there were a glaring in you know um instance of a failure of discernment and of Revelation uh on on the part of Joseph Smith it's it's the it's this decision Am I Wrong am I overstating that that's good yeah it's been it's been seven or eight months since he got his patriarchal blessing he's now mayor he's running University he's basically second command of an army and he's in the first president in seven or eight months like I I just he's been a member right yeah or Joseph Smith is is really really good at keep your friends close but your enemies closer exactly yeah that's just it and um I I'm 99% sure it was Lindsey Hansen Park who had said this in a podcast it could have with you or your pgy and she had mentioned how a lot of times in when people talk about church history they're like oh my goodness Joseph Smith was betrayed by all these people these horrible people and she's like no he picked these people because they were able to do what he needed them to do they just ultimately you know at some point there was a falling out for all sorts of reasons these people are not there by by accident you know the discernment thing obviously we as we've talked about previous episodes I don't believe that's a real thing as we can illustrate in a hundred different ways within Mormonism this was Joseph Smith's own personal discernment he wanted John C Bennett there because this was a guy who was able to do what he needed done who he trusted ultimately it's going to come back to bite him but he is not there by accident Joseph Smith is putting him here in seven or eight months you know this is why when apologists make this argument that John C Bennett was always a scoundrel it's like no this this is Joseph Smith putting every trust he can in this guy after seven or eight months and having him involved in everything he's doing and you cannot get away from that yeah and if that weren't enough we got to we got to talk about ketchup Julia I just wanted to add this so as the mayor of navu and and he published a lot concerning the tomato and so in one of the times and Seasons there was a fun little excerpt where it says Dr Bennett is of the opinion that the most of the billi affections um to which our citizens are subject to during the hot season can be prevented by the free use of the Tomato we are of the same opinion and as health is essential to our happiness and pro Prosperity as PE as a people we would earnestly recommend its culture to our fellow citizens and its General use for the culinary practices purposes culinary purposes do not not do not neglect it so I just thought that was really fun I mean that's I mean kudos to freaking John C Bennett CU who doesn't love the Tomato right can you imagine I I I think of french fries as a ketchup delivery vehicle I say tomato you say tomato in the end is an important fruit it's crucial it's essential it's almost like it is the blood of my veins is Ketch well and then and later in I think it's part three John C and events uh certain chickens that will that are popular today so ni so yeah well and utans hang on utans love ketchup so much that you have decided that is not enough to eat it on its own you must combine it with mayonnaise which is disgusting we love ketchup so much we dilute it with mayonnaise and make friy sauce awful awful and it was brought to me with everything just this pink sauce on the side it's so gross looking like why is there thousand oh it's not it's this person's smart these two people down below this guy this guy not so smart let's take something that's great and then put something awful in it make it look like it's infected did you just call fry sauce puss is that what you just did uh I mean that's what it looks like yeah Mike you're kicked off of of LDS discussion I want you all to think of that next time you dip your fry in one of those cups of ooze this is the quality content and and Analysis that people come here for yeah have we jump the have we jumped the shark have we just officially jump the shark too early all right the next episode's going to be on the benefits and and uh criticisms of fry sauce for sure it's definitely a Mormon topic all right so if all this weren't enough what is the master in Chancery Julia yeah so he's even higher now another hat to add so on the sixth day of May of 1841 benett was appointed master and Chancery of P hanok County so a master and Chancery is an office appointed by a court of to assist the court in English law it refers to a senior official or Clerk of a Court of Chancery who assists the chancellor in various duties such as inquiring into matters referred to by the court examining cases taking Oaths and affidavits which he you'll see how he puts that into practice later hearing testimony and Computing damages how can he be the head of the like the Chief Justice and the master in Chancery he's he's the mayor he's second in command of the military second in command of the church now he's got his fingers in the judicial system as well but not just the Jud yeah I mean John can you put that slide back up real quick yeah sure just I want people to understand remember this is Joseph Smith's right-hand man who has now got basically I don't want to call him a spy but he's got a guy who could go back to Joseph and tell him all the testimony being done all of the Oaths all of the cas is being brought up and so all of the stuff is starting to happen now as we'll get into the next few the next few episodes all of these crazy things all these accusations are happening which Joseph Smith is involved in and he's got somebody inside the court who gets to hear all of it before it gets out and I think that's a really important place for him to be dude you know what this reminds me of is Putin so Putin was President for whatever Russia's Constitution allowed and then even though he was like at the height of his power he bizarrely step down and let someone else become president but it was pretty clear that Putin was always s that that president that succeeded Putin was always a puppet and that became really clear when eventually that President goes away Putin reascended and has been president of Russia ever since so yeah it really feels like something similar is going on in NAU well and and just to put it like I don't want to do it like the mob or the mafia but let's just say you're some giant corporation like say you're Walmart in Arkansas right so you you're you're Walmart you're in Arkansas and you're able to appoint somebody to Walmart's uh main police force in the area and they get to listen to All of the Oaths and testimony of all the people that might bring lawsuits against you for all sorts of things all people are making accusations against your product and then you've got somebody who can go back to you on the side like here's what people are saying here's what's coming through what do we need to do it's it's a it's a really unethical thing to have your right-hand man be involved in all these things especially as we get to in these next few episodes where Jo Joseph Smith himself is embroiled in a lot of um problems whether it's polygamy or people arguing about land deeds and stuff like that and so it really this one feels more unethical than the other ones to me personally so John are you saying that John C Bennett is Joseph Smith Dimitri Medvedev that exactly Google for the win Nemo and Google for the win yeah that's good Julie anything else you want to say about that no I think that was good he's just yeah he's got a lot of power yeah to way too much power okay and then Grand Secretary of the Masonic l we're not done that's almost that's almost like comedy like you can't make this stuff up right he's the head of the mesonic lodge like is there a society yes can I be president of it sure well so there wasn't one there wasn't a masonic society yet so this is Bennett so Bennett actively sought to launch the Masonic Lodge in NAU usually in order to create a masonic lodge you asked the nearest existing Lodge to sponsor you and then after a year of operation under dispension the new Lodge would Grant a uh would be granted a charter so bet it was key in getting this started he wrote to near Lodge in 18 in June of 1841 was denied and then wrote again in October and December of December 29th of 1841 and then they were able to fully start the navu masic lodge so so there wasn't one so yeah like you said Nemo let's is the society here let's make one can I be in charge of it so I mean it's just it's just unbelievable and I I did not know you know obviously the Mormon Temple ceremony currently was plagiarized in large part from the Masonic Lage even more so before it was sanitized multiple times by the church I had no idea John C Bennett was at at Ground Zero of the na Lodge you know navu Masonic Lodge yeah and there's some controversial history there where John C Bennett before he came to navu he was kicked out of the lodge there um where he was at and so there was there was dispute there where whether he should be in this lodge because he had been kicked out before but then another witness said no I don't remember him being kicked out at all I think he was a really good Mason so um so he they let that slide but that was interesting me that that he's already having a lot of trouble elsewhere so I so I I I think it's worth just stating isn't it mindboggling you know all Mormons have heard of Martin Harris all Mormons have heard of Oliver Oliver calry all Mormons have heard of Brigham Young you know Emma Smith like there there's so many early Mormons that that every Mormon will have heard of growing up isn't it bizarre that there was no more powerful man in navoo second to Joseph Smith and John C Bennett and that pretty much all of us reached into our 20s to 40s before we as lifelong Mormons ever heard the name John C Bennett isn't that another example of how much power the Mormon church has over controlling information to its members isn't that mind-boggling yeah yeah well like I made the joke earlier I have a seminary graduation diploma right there uh and I didn't learn about John C Bennett and and I I paid attention I went to every single one of my sem lessons I got 100% attendance and I did not yeah never heard the name never heard the name yeah yeah yeah so let's do the overview let's summarize Julia all his positions and then I have a question yeah so this is just the the whole list of all the hats that he's wearing so September of 1840 he was baptized September 21st he gets his patriarchal blessing February 1st of the next year he becomes mayor February 3rd so just a couple days later the chancellor of the university and then the next day he becomes the major general and Inspector General and then April 7th of 1841 the assistant to the president and then May 6th of 1841 master in Chancery and then December of 1841 he becomes the grand Secretary of the Nava Masonic Lodge so so I I have two questions the the first question is what in the freak was Joseph Smith doing if John C Bennett was doing all this stuff I don't know if there's a do do any like do any of you have an answer to that like what was he doing Joseph had titles too but yeah um I don't know he was busy translating the Kinder hook plates well like I mean he was marrying a lot of women he was marrying and he was marrying and possibly betting a lot of women well during this time during this during during Bennett's we'll talk about this more later during Bennett's time Joseph took on 10 had he had was taking or had already taken at least 10 or 11 wives so it there's your answer there's your answer well 1843 I think was whenever he took on the most W I'm still 10 wives that's a lot yeah well I think I think by by the time he's uh elected to or selected for the the um Masonic Lodge I think he only has like three or four so it's it's really about to ramp up now I he's doing the book of Abraham at this point um he's also I think he's still fighting a lot of legal battles with Missouri I mean he's you know he's doing a lot I think you know for Joseph Smith I think he is an ideas guy and I think to to Nemo's Point earlier Joseph Smith had all these ideas and a lot of them fail and Brigham Young was the guy who didn't he wasn't very creative he was kind of a you know um he's not my favorite person but he was able to make things happen because he was a you know a uh kind of a dictator type of a personality that got things done I think Joseph Smith needed someone who could get these things done keep an eye on things for him um and so I think he wasn't I don't want to say he wasn't interested in running these things but I think he couldn't run all of these things at one and so he just kept handing him off to the same person which is a little odd unless you realize he wants to make sure it's someone he can trust I'll say one of the things I remember about no man knows my history is that Joseph was constantly on the run from uh Missouri officials that wanted that wanted to take him in and that of course got worse when the governor of Missouri Lilburn bogs there was an assassination attempt on his life which was in May of 1842 but wasn't Joseph constantly on the run from from from the law Julia yeah yeah and with that one we'll talk about that later because John C Bennett really really wanted Joseph to be arrested and tried for the murder of Li bogs or to be at least in part um he didn't think Joseph did the murder but he certainly thought he was guilty of that so I thought that was really interesting like of order lack of ordering it right right yeah the only other thing I was going to say is like for anyone who's watched Game of Thrones or any you know succession or anything if I'm Joseph Smith and I'm giving John C Bennett all this power it's it's not going to take me long to worry that John C Bennett is going to take over and youer my power right yeah because that's way too much power you want to if you want to maintain complete power then you want to divide power amongst a lot of people and have them balancing each other out you don't want to invest pretty much all the power in one person unless you're parano whether that's where the where the Fallout came from the ultimate Fallout that led to John C Bennett leaving I mean to do with Joseph's like um actually this guy I've made this guy a bit too powerful I'm going to have to alienate him I think the problem too is it well I don't want to steal juliia Sunder but I I personally think that John C Bennett was someone he we talked in our earlier episodes um during the priesthood restoration he had these Bishops that were like no we're equal with you and and they're they're calling him out on these land deals I mean Joseph Smith was always dealing with that infighting you know you got to Zion camp and everyone's questioning him and I think John C Bennett is his fresh face he comes in they clearly must get along well and I I think didn't John C Bennett live with Joseph Smith for a period of time too I think um right didn't he I thought it was so in the mansion house at least I thought he did yeah and it just feels like Joseph Smith I think feels like it's in hands that he could control and then to your point earlier every TV show and movie has that point where someone's like wait a second I can take this a step further or I could do it myself and and that and that's ultimately where things Splinter because all of a sudden Joseph Smith's giving him too much power John C Bennett uses it and then all of a sudden other people start talking about it which we'll get to and all of a sudden then Joseph Smith has be like I had nothing to do with this this guy's a scoundrel and then you see everything fall apart well let's not steal Julia's Thunder Julia tell us about the fall the fall of John C Bennett yeah so the the fall it's kind of hard to pinpoint when exactly what exactly pushed all this but on May 11th of 1842 Joseph Smith and others signed a statement to disfellowship Bennett but it was not made public after this some of the Brethren conducted an investigation on Bennett and learned that he was actually married and they had they had formally separated so he wasn't I don't think Bennett was trying to lie in that but they they they tracked on his wife and she said oh no we've separated and so yeah and then and and so they they found out that he was actually married and that he had been unfaithful to her during their time together so so mostly they're just finding out that he is um I don't know I don't want it I guess sexually promiscuous is is an okay thing to say because of what we'll only to cover later but I'm sorry I we the these Joseph Smith is accusing a man of being unfaithful to his wife well I don't know if Jose I don't know if it was him specifically but um okay but that everyone else was getting really concerned too because um yeah a lot of stuff's coming out with Bennett and spiritual Wy so yes because I know the whole spiritual wery differentiat to polygamy is like well it's wrong when you do it but right when we do it is basically what that is and this yeah this seems to be the start of that sort of well it's wrong for him to be unfaithful to his wife but we have special rules I don't know if this is a total coincidence but I Googled when Lilburn Bo when the assassination attempt of Lilburn bogs was just because I was curious do do you guys know the date I can't remember is it may it's May 6th 1842 so it's days 5 days before he's dis fellowed now that could be just a totally unrelated coincidence but it's interesting if if it's true what one of you just said which was that that John C Bennett wanted Joseph blamed for the assassination yeah yeah I don't did they ever I don't remember him being blamed too much but I could be very wrong well Bennett was certainly pushing for him to be blamed he really wanted Joseph tried for that so if Ben is like hang on I don't think this is right I think Jose should take the fall for this um that's happened that leads Joseph going oh this man who's got all this power is now gunning for me we're gonna have to get rid of him right so so Julia do are we gonna be talking later about what we think happened with L bogs or what do you mean no no no with uh with John C Bennett and and this letter this letter that you're showing here in Fellowship B when when because I know this a three-part series are we about to talk about that I hope so I hope I think it might be in these next slides if not then you should say whatever yeah all right let's keep going so so I'm I'm just dying to know so the next slide is called brothel in NAU what the heck yeah so I just just just keep in mind that that that that notice before was not made public so they've signed this but no one the membership overall doesn't know about this I mean I I to just guess that if he's doing polygamy spash slsp spiritual wiy stuff and he's been given all that power and shows is supposed to have the power of discernment they they want to keep this Hush Hush right right yeah yeah okay yeah but going back to the brothel yeah okay back to the brothel yeah so this is May 14th so this is just three days later the city council passed an ordinance prohibiting brothels in the city so I wonder why it took them this long but an eyewitness later claimed that Bennett had built one yes so an eyewitness later claimed that Bennett had built a brothel the city council ordered it ripped down as a public nuisance Lorenzo D Watson steeve Smith's nephew reported that he had knowledge of Bennett and his prostitutes whatever Bennett's connection with brothel if any it is unimaginable that it could have been that it could have survived without the knowledge of the leaders of the church yet no action was taken against it for at least a year and this is from Andrew Smith his biographer and then his biographer also adds that it could have been an integral part of the emerging system of sexual experimentation that then underway in NAU as been later implied man so you're saying that the a member of the Mormon church first presidency instituted a brothel in Nauvoo well under Joseph Smith knows we don't know the exact ties but that's what it seems like that's what this witness is saying said this brothel was there and it wasn't until 1842 after it had been running for a while that the the they passed the ordinance to get it taken down and then the other thing I don't understand is if he's the head of the city council it looks like the city council is defying him by ordering the broel to be destroyed so they're challenging his power am I reading that's sounds yeah that's what it sounds like to me huh I did not know that that John Bennett likely started a brothel and Nauvoo there's other different names that are passed around too but yeah his is his is one of them yeah wow this is a big deal as far as I'm concerned and again it qu why is Joseph Smith why is God telling Joseph Smith I mean I would assume that a member of the first presidency of the Mormon church is called by inspiration so why is God telling Joseph Smith to call John C Bennett into the first presidency if he's going to make make a brothel in N that's a good question and then you have we have later reports we have later reports of um Sarah Pratt oron Pratt's the Apostle's wife she says that Jose Joseph was attending these broos as well so that's interesting to me all Julie we got to make a short out of this one write that down okay Julie does our shorts on Mormon stories all right well the broth did y'all Nemo mikee did y'all have any brothel comments uh I think the point about the sexual experimentation going on at the time I think is actually quite fair in that you could view polygamy as sexually experimentation like it's not the normal way of having relationships um it's very useful and effective for Joseph to build up power Etc but yeah I think I think this idea of trying more casual sexual relationships than just the formal between man and wife is ultimately going to underg polygamy in some way because it is a deviation from the norm so yeah how about how about you are you more Pro or more uh anti brothel what's your position on brothel uh I mean I'm anti brothel uh but yeah you know I think um there was uh I try to think I think it was John Larson in his early Mormon Expressions episodes and he he was going through I used to listen to him when I first started doing this and in a lot of him he would point out how whenever someone accused Joseph Smith of doing something he would then basically level the charge back at them in some way and it does feel like that here like it's almost like John C Bennett is getting accused of sexual priorities and Joseph Smith is implicated which we'll get into more in the next few slides uh and then all of a sudden it's like oh look at what this guy's been doing and it's like you almost are trying to get out ahead of it so all the church members think that John C Bennett is the dirty old man and and Joseph Smith is the righteous guy doing plural marriage as opposed to brothel and spiritual iy so it it really but what my defense yeah exactly Julia is nodding so we have Julia's blessing on that information yeah yeah it maybe think of it maybe think just really fast of John C Bennett I think one of the things that discredits him is because he was also involved in this spiritual iy or in getting these women but then you have William law who later spoke out against Joseph and he was not involved in that so it seems like one if benett would have helped his case better if he if he had not also engaged in those things but that's kind the purpose yeah and it also goes back to that first quote where John C Ben's like yeah I did this all to infiltrate him it's like no you didn't you idiot because if you did this is not what you'd be doing you know you you'd be exposing this right now instead of you know doing uh s or not also engaging it yeah exactly yeah it's like you know be like uh I get caught having an affair and I'm like my wife's like I know you had an affair it's like listen baby I was trying to expose this woman it wasn't about me at all it's about them you know it's like it's come on but did again we're we're repeating ourselves but did any of you learn growing up that that the mayor of navoo and a member of the first presidency imp likely implemented a brothel did when any of us did any of you traveled to Nauvoo you probably did Evo but when you or you Mike when when you went to navoo to to to learn about the early history of the church did the church Mormon church missionaries ever take you by the place where the where the where the brothel was implemented by the mayor and first presidency been so fun not part of the N pageant as far as I'm aware yeah yeah yeah so somehow this was conveniently correlated out of Mormon Mormon history and if it if there weren't enough let's go to the next slide uh which is sexual allegations yeah so on the 17th of May of 1842 so this is again a few days later having been made acquainted with some of the conduct of John C bennon which was given in testimony under oath before Alderman George W Harris so this is also George W Harris is one of Joseph's how do I say this Joseph was married to his wife I don't know how to say that Lucinda Harris was his second polygamous wife Anyway by several females who testified that John C Bennett endeavored to seduce them and accomplish his designs by saying it was right and that it was one of the mysteries of God which was to be revealed and the people was strong enough in the faith to Bear such Mysteries the it was perfectly right to have elicit intercourse with females providing no one knew it but themselves yeah so women women in AVU are claiming that John C Bennett's trying to seduce them and we know that Joseph Smith has brought on 10 wives at this point so it's it's obviously hard not to make a parallel it's John C Bennett Joseph's right-hand man Joseph is now collecting wives like like eggs in a in a you know he's up to a dozen by this point John C Benny Ben Bennett's doing it too Julia it's hard not to kind of you know think that this is this is uh that the fish rots from the head Julie you first then Nemo oh no have Nemo go first okay Nemo I just I'm going to need Mike's help with this um but there is a a case in doctrine of covenants where someone basically claims the bird you have Revelations also because they see Joseph Smith going around doing it and they're like yeah I can do that too yeah H and Page H and Page H and page so that was I was drawing a blank on the name yeah so H and Page this is a H and P page incident again almost it's um John C Bennett sees Joseph Smith doing this he's his right-hand man how does he not know about what Joseph Smith's been up to with these 10 wives at this point and so then he's he's doing that he sees Joseph's me he's like well I'm going to have me a part of this too because if it's right for Joseph I I there's no reason I shouldn't be able to have it um but Joseph has to establish himself somehow as unque and different special and he has to nip that in the bird and go no no no that's not that's not you uh that's me Julia no yeah that was just I was going to point out too is that the the timeline of all this so they so they disfellowship him they don't make that public and then they're making these things publish in the time public in the times and seasons and people are knowing about this and then later he'll publish it and there's sort of a power play which we'll talk about here about why Jose is withholding some of this information and not making it public right away yeah John you have the call it's interesting that there's he's he's trying to say there's nothing wrong with it like I don't know that the LA of chassid was formalized by 1842 yet within Mormonism right no but adultery is a well-known thing yeah so he's basically trying to say this isn't adultery God's saying it's it's fine but I mean that's starting to remind me of like the happiness letter like what's bad in one circumstance this is from the happiness letter episode yeah this this the this Slide the next slide we literally covered in the happiness letter because this is what really is going on in the background Joseph Smith is marrying all these women there's a lot of chatter so Joseph Smith now is trying to get ahead of it by saying these people are doing it but you know he's to the public he's not telling him that he's doing he's denying it in public right and so in behind the scenes he's got to clamp this down because the last thing he wants is knowing that his right-hand man is seducing women using the same kind of idea as Joseph Smith was and so this is the whole joke of like you know spiritual wery is from the devil but plural marriage is awesome you know and I'm stealing that I believe it's from Lindy Hansen Park I think she says like I think she whatever her I think it might have been way back when when you did an episode with her on the essay and I think it was her and she said something like spiritual wifey is terrible plural marriage is awesome and that's what this is it's trying to make a distinction where there's no difference yeah well let's go on because there's another slide that says sexual allegations continued yeah does someone else want to read this one this is from the his biographer Andrew Smith I believe it's John's turn okay I'll do it uh John C Bennett was accused of seducing Katherine Warren Matilda nyman nyman's Sister Margaret and several unidentified women uh Bennett never denied the charges of adultery on one occasion he reportedly admitted that he had sexual relations with six or seven women in navu he confessed to William law and others that he had done wrong that he would not deny but he would deny that he had used Joseph Smith's name to accomplish his designs on anyone interesting so was he acting with Joseph's support or was he using Joseph Smith's name to do devious things so can I jump in on this one uh because this is what we covered in the happiness letter so basically it's not just uh John C Bennett who's being caught into this so Joseph Smith's own brother is involved William Smith is in on this and they're telling in these testimony these women are telling that William Smith and John C Bennett and I think there's like two or three other guys are telling them they learn these things from Joseph Smith and that you can basically have sex and not be sinning and this is also part of that uh teaching Joseph Smith had at the time which is if there's no sin there's no accuser so Joseph Smith is teaching that publicly so these guys who know what Joseph Smith is doing with polygamy are going to these women and saying listen if we do this and you don't talk about it and I don't talk about it it's fine because that's what Joseph Smith is teaching and he's also uh doing polygamy and so this isn't just the John C Bennett thing this is also the William Smith thing the difference is when William Smith is under trial Joseph Smith jumps up and says uh basically if you will um look it up real quick I will not listen to the to this abuse of my family one second longer then I think he says something like if if there's one more incense of it there'll be blood or something like that so basically Joseph Smith protects his brother here but he's gonna throw John C Bennett under the bus and then run him over about 10 [Laughter] times Julia did you have a any additional thoughts or comments about that uh no not specifically I think the next slid kind of ties it into let's jump to it then uh John C Bennett signs a statement okay so on the 17th of May of 1842 benett also signed a statement vowing that he never taught anything in the least contrary to the strictness pr strictest principles of the Gospel or of virtue or of the laws of God or man under any circumstances or upon any occasion either directly or indirectly in word or Deed by Joseph Smith and that he never knew that the said Smith to countenance any improper conduct whatsoever whatever either in public or private and that he never did teach to me in private that any illicit intercourse with with females was under any circumstances justifiable and that I never knew him so him so to teach others and but read that Source okay so that's from the history of the church smacks of damage controlled isn't it yes I mean Julie I want to hear your reaction to that first and then I want to hear everyone else well like if I'm so and maybe I talk about this in another side too but so I there's a practice in the Mormon Church especially during Joseph Smith's time where they bring a signed State they bring an already written statement we have this with the witnesses the the three and the eight Witnesses and in all these other circumstances with polygamy specifically but he brings this already signed State this already written statement that John C benett has to sign and like I never this was never authorized by Joseph I was just doing this on my own and he's just um uh removing Joseph from the situation so I first of all that's really problematic to me um but also this is from WR in the history of the church maybe maybe I'll talk about later in later slides because then Joseph is trying to play this game where he's he's because he is living polygamy and he's trying so polygamy is correct to him but spiritual iere is different but they're so similar that he has to be careful what he publishes in the newspapers and what he what he what he says publicly and what he doesn't because that's a lawyerly that's a lawyerly statement right right exactly yeah I don't the just just to to to not because it says never did teach me in private that an illegal illicit intercourse with females was under any circumstances justifiable like isn't that lawyerly language because I'm sure Joseph would say that the new and Everlasting Covenant of celestial marriage is neither illegal nor illicit right exactly it's the same with he never was taught anything in the least contrary to the strictest principles of the gospel because he'll just go all the laws of God he'll say it's a law of God it's a principle of the gospel and it's virtuous when Joseph Smith does it yeah so it's kind of lawyerly yeah to me yeah I know very much so Mike no it feels like a statement that he wants in his back pocket so when if John C Bennett comes out and says that Joseph Smith is doing this he could just pull out the statement and say look what John C Bennett admitted to and it just yeah it feels like a very like it almost feels like uh if you're signing a statement at like a a settlement or something for a trial and you're basically making this person sign a document that says I I accept no um wrong doing and all that because you want to have something that you could release to other people to say yeah I'm cool I'm clear this guy was making it up and you know like Julia said this this is a pattern that you see like with the witness statements where people are just going to be given the statement and you sign it and then the church can then use it to or Joseph Smith can use it to effectively you know make a claim to whatever is necessary at the time and and just because I I want to keep these under two hours and I want to make sure we get through it let's let's jump to the next slide where John C Bennett resigns as mayor yes so just I think this is the exact same day on May 17th he resigned as mayor and there's this letter here where circumstances of a personal nature have induced me to to Tender you my resignation of the of the office of the mayor as mayor and so this is just his letter saying I'm no longer the mayor um I don't know if we need to go into so much detail but it's it's kind of like the uh I'm I'm stepping down to spend more time with my family equivalent yeah yeah okay all right message received and then of course who steps up as mayor course y so yeah at a special meeting of the city council held two days later on May 19th Joseph was elected mayor and H Smith was elected vice mayor and then one thing I thought was interesting is so Joseph he goes up to Bennett he says he's talking to him and he says I asked Bennett if he had an a against me Bennett arose and reported that he had no difficulty with the heads of the church and publicly publicly vowed that anyone advancing the version that Joseph Smith had given him authority to elicit inter to elicit intercourse with women was a liar in the face of God and so he's like hey benett do you have any problems with me being the mayor no of course I don't and also just reminding everyone that he did not authorize this spiritual Wy any any reactions to that uh you know that sequence of events I mean obviously the nepotism of Joseph Smith assigning himself as mayor and then hirum as vice mayor two days later had Sydney Ron's Health recovered by this point so that John C Bennett was no longer needed as that's a good question I don't he said I have nothing against leaders of the church but he would be talking about himself there where he still a member of the first presidency I mean that's I don't know the exact timeline but that's kind of ironic because we covered in a previous LDS discussions episode isn't one of the reasons Sydney Rigden sorry Sydney Rigden was on the outs is because his daughter uh Nancy declined Joseph's polygamous advances yeah I mean they because they remember well the whole episode was a while ago but they have like that back and forth where like Joseph Smith is having stuff published in the paper on Nancy being a horror BAS basically and then they kind of come to an agreement they write that really carefully worded statement again where uh Sydney Ron basically says uh Joseph did not write the letter which he didn't because he had a scribe and they had all that kind of technicality in there and then after that I think they do kind of make amends to a point I don't know if they truly ever get back to where they were um so I just don't know exactly on the timeline of when all that stuff happened because I remember there was one article in a newspaper that came out like after they had made amends because they couldn't stop it time that went after Nancy rigon yet again and uh so looks like that was in August so that that the fallof for that continues through August um between him and and Sydney Rigden okay any other any other comments about uh Joseph Smith becoming mayor L Julia any thoughts no just okay yeah okay um and John C Bennett says I have no difficulty with the heads of the church yeah so he it's this must be some sort of like settlement where it's like we're going to destroy you if you don't make sure and affirm us as we're kicking you out kind of thing yeah we're talking about we'll talk about it later but John C Bennett still wants to run for certain offices and he still wants Joseph's support so I'm sure he wants to have he wants to leave as nicely as he can without ruffling ruffling the least amount of feathers that he can so at this point he's not totally on the outs right yeah he's not totally yeah not yet okay the way he's staying not completely on the outside is by backing Joseph up and saying he's never taught me it's like a deal you Joseph's like all right uh all right John C Bennett if you tell everybody I had nothing to do with your behaviors we have to kick you out but uh but we'll find some way to keep you on the payroll kind of thing look like there was that there was that account with polygamy early on where Joseph Smith tells somebody and I can't remember who it was basically if you get a girl pregnant we'll basically kick out and they'll just bring you back in later I think it feels like that where it's like okay how do we make this go away in the in room but also so they both realize that they they can't completely go against each other at that point because they both have a lot to lose yeah yeah mutual assur destruction is call it in the uh in the nuclear in ICBM nuclear missile uh world all right let's jump to Joseph Smith as mayor oh we already did that right yeah uh okay so then John C Bennett gets disfellowshipped okay so yeah on on May 25th Joseph gave Bennett the dis the disfellowship notice that was dated May 11th and threatened to publish it in the paper so something's happening here where he's just really upset at Bennett and um and he's and having this exposed would hurt Bennett in his election Smith then asked if this is from the biographer Andrew Smith Smith then asked if Bennett was willing to make an oath Bennett agreed proceeded into the office and wrote the statement after Bennett humbled himself and begged to be spared the publication of the dis disfellowship notice for his mother's sake the notice was written from the times and Seasons so it wasn't was withdrawn from the T times and Seasons so wasn't published interestingly this is something that I I don't quite understand what Andrew Smith is saying but he says interestingly this statement in which Bennett supposedly admitted his culpability under oath was not released nor was any explanation given for not circulating it and so later we do see that it is it is published in the in the history of the church but I it sounds like Andrew Smith is saying this wasn't published during the time that it was written yeah it's kind of it's kind of censorship for damage control they they don't want this leaking out so it's a it's a great early example of Church the Mormon Church hiding problematic events I mean we we know that today they they hide sexual abuse of children and adults all the time uh they hide all sorts of you know the the IGN Peak um you know investments in the hundreds of billions of dollars now that the church has in wealth the The Hiding of inconvenient truths that they don't want the general membership to know let alone the general public has its roots in navoo and earlier right right I also think he's again J is trying to play this game really carefully where he's trying to denounce what Bennett's doing but then he has 10 or 11 wives that he has to like I have to say this or publish very carefully so that they still know that I'm doing the right thing and being their polygamous husband but that Bennett's doing the wrong thing so I feel like he's yes he's trying to school what people know and the the the bad information but also he's trying to I think he's trying to play this really careful game of of polygamy wow that's crazy absolutely okay so Joseph Smith is Mayor we have another slide on that oh yeah so I thought this was also really interesting so the city council unanimously unanimously passed a vote of thanks to the ex- mayor so even after all this stuff is happening they're like hey thanks for um being the May the mayor um resolved by the city council of the city of navu that this Council tender a vote of thanks to General John C Bennett for his great Zeal and having good and wholesome laws adopted for the government of the city and for the faithful discharge of his duty while mayor of the same so they're like I don't know it's a nice it was but it's also bizarre can you imagine like a first presidency member leaving a mayor being demoted in Scandal and then the church is saying you did a great job thank you so much for all you did and what's even more wild they talk about his good and wholesome laws but then a year later they're going to go and undermine those wholesome laws by saying but Joseph Smith gets to sell alcohol so yeah and since when was putting up a brothel a wholesome law seriously yeah yeah weird it is strange super weird Okay makes me wonder what like level of personal influence John C Bennett had over Joseph Smith like how much their relationship was you know the relationship between the two of them yeah yeah that's a good question and I don't know if I mean just as a teaser I don't know if the homosexuality stuff that you are going to share with this I think in next episode Julia if that maybe part three it might be part three part three there's a yeah and sure you hit subscribe because you're not going to want to miss that absolutely there you go you're welcome okay thanks Nemo um all right so now we're to his public disfellowship mint yeah so despite Bennett's desire not to have a disfellowship notice published Joseph Smith had it published in July 15th of 1842 in the times and seasons and so this is just the notice I don't know if we need to read it um I think we should read who it's signed by go Mike go ahead and read it Mike uh the subscribers members of the first presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of latterday saints withdraw the hand of Fellowship from General John C Bennett as a Christian he having been labored from with from time to time to persuade him to amend his conduct apparently to no good effect signed by Joseph Smith hyram Smith and William law interesting yeah I just think it's interesting that because Joseph was like okay if you sign this thing I won't make this public and then what was it maybe two months later June July that he's like nope I'm gonna do this and he's yeah I just something changed in Joseph or something changed in the circumstances to make him do we know do we know what if if John C Bennett just was talking too much was he misbehaving you know I don't know that's a good question I don't know specifically yeah I was trying I was just trying to look up some dates and it looks like everything kind of happens in May and then in August after this so I don't know what happens in the interim that gets Joseph Smith to basically just pull the trigger on on trying to basically nuke him yeah maybe he didn't stop his scandalous Behavior yeah or people were believing him or things like that we yeah we know people left the church over certain issues like with the with Nancy Rigdon and things like that they were leaving the church I mean let's just face it he could have been a a a polygamy Fall Guy right he could have been uh oh Joseph's because Joseph was lying about polygamy this whole time Joseph was hiding it he was lying about it I don't even think em Emma knew about it that's why William law got mad and published the navo Expos when he finally found out so yeah I wonder whether this was part of keeping William law Suite that's why I wanted to point out that he was a signatory because if this is of keeping William law sweet he's like yeah don't worry William we'll get rid of him because he's doing this nasty stuff that shouldn't be happening so F guy he was a fog guy MH yeah yeah possibly I mean we're speculating but that's possible yeah very possible all right so then it looks like he goes on to run for the House of Representatives right well so yeah Andrew Smith theorizes that Bennett perhaps agreed to resign his position amicably and hope that he might avoid a public confrontation with Smith Bennett was a candidate for the Illinois House of Representatives and he apparently believed that Joseph Joseph Smith and H Smith would continue to support his candidacy disclosure of the rift with Smith would have promptly doomed any chance for his election so yeah he was wanting to do this and he wanted to like I said he didn't want to ruffle any feathers because he wanted Joseph's support because he's got all these Saints and he's got all this militia and stuff like that big big supporter in Joseph and and then he loses it with with Joseph publishing this disfellowship notice so interesting because when you've got someone who is a potential uh who has the potential to take you down you want to give them something to make them happy so that they don't just sit around and wallow in their sadness and anger and then spend their time trying to take you down so the House of Representatives could have been that except for the next slide right yeah while the yeah so while the navu High Council investigated Bennett he prudently withdrew his name from consideration as a candidate for the Illinois House of Representatives he recommended that Orson PR or Sydney Ron run but they refused instead William Smith ran and was elected so yeah Joseph's Joseph's brother William yeah yeah William yeah B okay okay so no no uh Congress for John C Bennett he's he's k out yeah yeah so now he has nothing to lose now he's like I Joseph Joseph's can't help me at all he can't help me with this running for the House of Representatives so um yeah so then he threatens to to write a book and an expose on Joseph so which leads to uh the final straw yeah yes on June 18th of 1842 Smith Smith spoke out publicly against Bennett according to Wilford woodruff's Journal Joseph Smith spoke his mind in great plainness plainness concerning the inquiry and wickedness iniquity I think that's probably iniquity and wickedness of General John Cook Bennett and exposed him before the public one newspaper described that some hard swearing P some hard swearing passed between those Saints during the quel and that Bennett threatened to write a book for the purpose of exposing the r the rascality of this Pretender to the spirit of Prophecy and that was published in the Hawkeye and Iowa Patriot according to John C Bennett's biography Andrew Smith John C Bennett was ex communicated on this day so he was excommunicated on June 18th of 1842 and do we have any idea what uh what you know what what he was so mad about what what what the the division and the contention was about like I I imagine some people loved him I imagine he had relationships that were significant and then I imagine that he was angry feeling like he was the Fall Guy and eventually punished for Behavior he probably learned from Joseph I'm speculating Julia what's your no I I that's my feel too is that he he like Joseph is doing this why can't I do this and then he's getting really frustrated and and then we'll we'll get into more of this hit the backlash of of John CET in part two because he he does not go quietly into the good night he is very very outspoken of of his leaving the church and he doesn't leave it alone so there's more to come I feel John C Ben like Icarus flew too close to the Sun I think he got got a bit too close to the top of the Mormon power structure and I think he tried to take one two main Liberties um and Joseph wasn't willing to Back Him possible exposure of his own behavior I mean if if if he was a scalawag to begin with and then power corrupts when when absolute power is given to a scoundrel to begin with it's probably not going to be a good outcome right is that fair to say yeah Mike what what's your summary for today's episode uh my summary is there's no heroes in this story I think when you look at both uh Bennett and and Joseph Smith they're doing some really crappy things and I think that's why at the beginning I said like a lot of times critics would like John C Bennett this hero that speaks out it's like no he's not a hero he's a bad guy that was doing bad things and he did speak out and obviously that's helpful in the sense of getting more information about what Joseph Smith was doing that doesn't make him a good guy and I I think that um it just shows too like you both like you've all said when you get a lot of power and you see someone else getting away with doing these certain things especially when you talk about people that want to have sex with other women and they see this loophole that Joseph Smith's using and teaching publicly by the way when you say no sin of no accuser and then you do it but but the problem the mistake John C Bennett made wasn't having sex with the women it was that basically it got caught and it got public and Joseph Smith got implicated and and so when you have all those things happen and you're John C Bennett and you get caught and then you get kicked out for it after you get all of this power yeah you're gonna you're gonna lash back because obviously John C Bennett's aspirations got nuked by Joseph Smith here and um you know it's it's not to draw this this comparison but it feels similar to when the church nuked Tim Ballard a few months ago the the church got out in front of Tim Ballard and they dropped the nuclear bomb on him because they wanted to make sure he was toxic to anyone who was a believer in the church because they knew that Tim Ballard could say I met with these people and blah blah blah it's the same thing it's just you know Joseph Smith is always one step ahead as far far as power than these other people and he's going to stom on you if he needs to you know speaking you know now that we're res we're bringing LDS discussions back for a second season so to speak I think one cool LDS discussions episode could be you know 10 of the I maybe we did an episode about this but like the main people excommunicated from the Mormon church over time why they were excommunicated and what we can learn from their excommunication what was the one that we did wants himself in an episode no what was the one we did uh I don't know that we did one like that I mean we we talked about this a bit in the happiness letter episode oh maybe it was John Larson maybe it was John Larson we did an episode but but I mean like if you just take it's not like John C Bennett was the only excommunicated person to then write a you know a tell all William law did that but for a very different reason um you know uh John D Lee did that but for a very different reason so um I I think it's really interesting to see why people are excommunicated and how they respond to it yeah oh go ahead I was just goingon to say a lot of J the if you look at the if you know we have those pictures now where it's like the prophet and the the counselors and the there was a lot a lot of those people were excommunicated or left the church and so like that that would be really fascinating to look at of why why they were disaffected from the church yeah let's write that let's keep a running list of uh yeah LDS discussions episodes cuz that's a really good one like what happened to all the founders of Mormonism and just list 10 20 are the most significant Founders in what happens to him yeah yeah and and that's what and that's kind of ties in a little bit to this maybe on a smaller level but when you look at how all of the basically the big Witnesses were were kicked out because they started to question what Joseph Smith was doing and then this is after Joseph Smith to a certain extent is a little bit Unleashed because he's not constrained by those those initial people they're gone and so Joseph Smith now is almost like he's almost doing his own second season in kind of rebooting with John C Bennett to to try to take this to the next level and the problem is if you're going to associate yourself with people who are clearly uh doing things that you know are not right but you're bringing them in because they get stuff done it's going to backfire it always does that's just how history Works uh when you try to work with people that are um a little bit underhanded and uh even if you think you can outsmart them it's still gonna blow up in your face you know it's almost like uh it's almost like John C Bennett was the anti-hero who was a scalla from the start who was brought in by Joseph Smith so that Joseph Smith could have a puppet to wield absolute Authority that went wrong so Joseph Smith got rid of him then he chose a moral man uh later William law apparently to replace John C Bennett William law becomes Joseph Smith's right-hand man but that didn't turn out so well either because William law wasn't going to be a puppet he wasn't going to be okay with polygamy and in the same way he gets kicked out out for for not doing what Joseph wants and then he ends up writing a tell all the navu Expositor is almost like a um an opposite or an inflection of John C Bennett it's almost like William law was the anti- John C Bennett and John C Bennett was the anti- William law that's an interesting and they kind of they they served consecutively I think that's a really interesting jop position yeah and it shows the the swing Joseph Smith took in terms of who his allies were yeah and that's the problem support but it felt like no matter what he did I mean the problem is you know and and this is more for another episode but when you get into this period of navu Joseph Smith is doing things that are not good and so William law is obviously going to play a vital role and maybe that's an episode we should do as navu Expositor um I know it's been covered elsewhere but that would be a fun one to do because that ties into this about how Joseph Smith is going from person to person but you need someone who is agreeing with you on this who also won't do what you're doing it's a really he he's working this tie RPP here that's never going to work out I mean that's the problem it's like if you get someone like John C Ben who's like yeah I'm okay with you sleep with other women but then he's going to want to do it too and then you get someone like William law who's not okay with it and he's not gonna be okay with Joseph doing it that's why when you're doing bad things you're gonna have a hard time keeping things together it just doesn't work well Julia you've prepared an amazing first episode I would love you to just give us your summary of today and then tell us what parts two and three are going to be about and then we'll a journ until next time yes sure so yeah so John C Bennett was just a very brand new member of the church Rose to the very top I I partly wonder if Joseph always intended to take to take his place or to have that facade of like I'm I'm holding the strings but but see I'm not in charge it's Bennett and then that and then Bennett was exposed because of his his spiritual wery and things like that and then and then he Joseph re replaced him really quickly and then Bennett is not going he's he's one thing that I think is really interesting is and we're going to cover this in part two part two we're talking about the the uh I think we're talking about the how he's trying to expose Joseph and things like that and well I'm impressed by how the church did not end after B after John C Bennett is is saying all these things and and going to all these lectures and speaking out very publicly against Joseph whereas with with William law I mean I guess Joseph was Marty so maybe we don't know for sure but with William law that was really he saw that as more harmful or he seemed more scared of William than Bennett which I is really interesting because Joseph was very terrified of Bennett after he left it's like I guess I'm I've been picturing Joseph holding this snake um that's very poisonous and as soon as he lets a go it's gonna I don't know like you talked about Mike you mentioned it blowing up in his face like John C Bennett blows up in Joseph's face and Joseph is terrified and this next what we're gon to cover next is how Joseph and bennon are responding to each other um so yeah and then his exposing Joseph and so I can't remember which parts are which but I think next time we're talking about we're talking about abortion and then polygamy and then we'll talk talk about homosexuality and then and then what happens with when Bennett is giving these lectures and telling the world about Joseph so and for those who are like what abortion of navoo I mean a lot of people ask if Joseph Joseph couldn't have been a polygamist because there were no Offspring uh it's possible that abortion was a factor in that and and we're going to be talking about that Nemo I have to always say whenever that point gets brought up it just shows he was a bad polygamist because God said polygamy was for raising up righteous seed and he didn't do that so he failed to live up to DNC 132 and pretty much every other rule on DNC 132 as well but that's a point all right well Mike and Nemo can we give Julia a round of applause for her uh her joining us today in L discussions thank you Julia welcome to the team and I'll just say before this episode ends that if you guys want to go on Tik Tok and view her videos I don't know how many you've posted now but she's done a ton of videos that really take on a lot of AP itic responses to issues that are really good and like I said she doesn't just tell you she shows you and I think that's why her work is important because it's not just her just saying oh I believe this so you should do it's like no here's why this doesn't add up here here are the sources and what they're telling you is is inaccurate so I I would highly recommend anyone interested uh follow her and and watch her videos because she does really good work without being like I said obnoxious or trying to turn off people who are are trying to figure this out and I think that's a really uh great mindset to have with these videos so so I really hope that if you haven't you'll do so because she has been doing a lot of good work for a long time thanks Mike thank you yeah all right thanks Julia thanks and and please subscribe to Nemo the Mormon the YouTube channel help Nemo grow he's over 20,000 Subs now please subscribe to Mormon stories podcast and share this episode wherever you can make sure you know you can follow us on Spotify on Apple podcast and also there's a playlist on uh our YouTube channel where you can watch all these in succession check out uh you know analyzing Mormonism of course on Tik Tok and Instagram and don't forget to check out the LDS discussions. comom website that Mike put together where you can read um all his essays that are all super useful and and don't forget to tune in again for another episode of LDS discussion soon y thanks everybody that yeah all right thanks Julia thanks Mike thanks Nemo well we'll see you all again next week all right take care thanks everyone thanks for joining us today on Mormon stories and finally we pay all these people so if you want to see this series continue you need to U become a supporter if you're not already so if you're a donor thank you go to Mormon stories.org become a monthly donor if you're not and your donations will in part go to pay for Julia's work and Mike and Nemo uh because we believe in 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Episode Info
Guests: Mike (LDS Discussions), Nemo the Mormon, Julia (Analyzing Mormonism)
Related Article: LDS Discussions