John C. Bennett and Homosexuality in Nauvoo Pt 3
Original Air Date: 2024-04-11
This video, titled "Homosexuality in Joseph Smith’s Nauvoo - John C. Bennett Pt 3," is the fifty-first episode of the LDS Discussions series on the Mormon Stories Podcast. Hosted by John Dehlin with guests Mike, Nemo the Mormon, and Julia, the discussion focuses on John C. Bennett’s alleged homosexuality, his conflict with the Danites, and his life after being excommunicated from the Mormon church 1.
Allegations of Homosexuality and "Buggery"
The panel examines historical claims that John C. Bennett engaged in same-sex relationships while serving as Joseph Smith's "right-hand man" 2, 3.
Theological Shifts and "Sin is Not Sin"
A central theme of the episode is how Joseph Smith restructured morality around loyalty to himself.
The Danites and the "Daughters of Zion"
Bennett claimed that after his fall from grace, he was hunted by the Danites, a Mormon vigilante group 18.
Bennett’s Post-Mormon Life
After leaving Nauvoo, Bennett engaged in a crusade against Mormonism before drifting into obscurity.
Conclusion
The episode paints Bennett as a "scoundrel" and an unreliable narrator who nonetheless revealed genuine corruption within Nauvoo 33. As the hosts note, Bennett was one of the "Hydra heads" of the monster he helped create, making him both a complicit insider and a damaging whistleblower 34.
Analogy: John C. Bennett is like the getaway driver for a bank robbery who gets fired mid-heist and immediately runs to the police to confess. While his testimony is self-serving, exaggerated, and hypocritical because he helped plan the robbery, his detailed knowledge of the bank's layout and the robbers' methods makes him a witness that cannot be simply ignored, even if his personal character is deeply flawed.
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hello everyone and welcome back to another edition of Mormon stories podcast I'm your host John dein it's January 25th 2024 and we are here to discuss part three of our LDS discussion Series today we're going to be talking about John C Bennett Joseph Smith's right-hand man and homosexuality um in navu Illinois uh you know during the final years of Joseph Smith's life uh this is part of the LD discussion series uh if you're this is the first time you've joined us on Mormon stories or on LDS discussions we want to strongly recommend that you pause this go back to the beginning this is like the 50th or the 51st episode of LDS discussions it's a series where we're trying to discuss explore Mormon church truth claims in as neutral and objective and as fact-based of a uh of a foundation as we can and these episodes build on each other so you can go to to YouTube the LDS discussions playlist you can go to Spotify you can go to Apple podcasts wherever you get your podcast there should be a LDS discussions series there you can start from the very beginning you can watch it on YouTube you'll get the best um experience if you watch it either on Spotify or on YouTube but you're also very welcome to listen to it on any uh podcast platform that you prefer but um this series is uh well-loved and we're so thrilled that it's continuing we want to welcome back uh on the show Mike the father of LDS discussions hey Mike hey everybody how's it going U Mike Mike has a website called LDS discussion.citation hey Nemo hey how you doing John welcome back Nemo the Mormon Nemo has a amazing YouTube channel that you all should subscribe to and donate to how you doing Nemo I'm all right I I wanted to suggest before we we start that we introduce a new segment called snack time with Nemo okay um because the people seem to enjoy my eating of Doritos live on air um and so I think we should every episode bring in some snacks um wait wait let's get a let's get a closeup we got to get a shot of that for uh we got to get a shot of that for Instagram all right all right we'll freeze that thanks Nemo we we appreciate you bringing that waxy chocolate onto the program okay and of course a new addition to the LDS discussion series is Julia hey Julia hi how's grad school um it's good there's a lot of reading Julia just started her Masters in uh history at at Missouri State yeah in Zion basically basically in Zion yeah yeah all right well we're in part three of our series with John C benett he's one of the most important figures in Mormonism that Mormons have never heard of he was Joseph's right-hand Man part one we talked about him being mayor and and uh chief justice and co-president of the Church Chief cook and bottle washer he was everything in Nauvoo um part two we talked about abortions and polygamy and spiritual wery and part three it's scandalous Julie are you trying to tell me that there was lgbtq Shenanigans going on uh in Nauvoo Illinois yes and actually D Michael Quinn he's one of my favorite historians and he has a book a 19th century study of samex dyn Dynamics or something like that so please go read that one he's got a lot of information it seems like the early church leaders did not treat homosexuality in any way like they treat them now so yeah that's a really interesting study to look at all right oh also I wanted to make a comment um so last episode we talked about um the spiritual wiery and things like that and uh in William law affid David he says that um he heard of abortions and he heard of the no women or women got no issue how did the phrasing go yeah there no issue from the women so the word issue yes it isn't there was a lot of commenters um yes that word means posterity so I just wanted to throw that out there and clarify that at the beginning wait hang on Julia are you are you clarifying A previous statement you made so is to ensure most information is that Mormons can Mormons do that wait yeah I'm not a Mormon how excellent how an ex Morman okay all right well that's good clarification all right Julia well uh today's gonna be fascinating so uh yeah where do you want to start yeah so um there's a quote actually from D Michael Quinn from this from this book that I was referencing the 19th century uh Dynamics same sex Dynamics are we start with that yeah so there the quote right after this slide yeah okay um okay so yeah the first topic is homosexuality and he says the this is from D Michael Quinn the first known instance of homoerotic behavior in Mormon history involved John C Bennett we know yeah yeah that we know of that that's on the historical record and I just think that was cool because I I was excommunicated for being queer uh for leaving my temple marriage and uh pursuing a same-sex relationship anyway so I just thought that was really interesting that we can there's a person Mormonism so new that we can figure out what's the first instance I don't know I just thought that was no that's good and and if John C Bennett was excommunicated it wasn't for that I could tell you that yeah nope that's one of the things we're talking about too so okay all right let's keep going okay in honor of Nemo do you want to read the slide yes Ben do you want to give your do you want to give our British listeners a warning like a Content warning Nemo yeah a Content warning for those we are about to use the B word um is it's pretty mild over here too okay I was like I would never have put it up I heard it was worse than the FW is that not true no no no no okay I mean no offense this is what the historical record says I would I would say that as a like it's it's edgy but I'd say it as a like a as a fully Orthodox member all the all the Americans are thinking why is a bad word I didn't even know that was such a bad word yeah ready Bennett accused of buggery in the WASP published on July 27th 1842 it reads it will be seen by this that General Smith was a great philanthropist as long as Bennett could practice adultery fornication and we were going to say buggery without being exposed buggery was a slang word and legal term for sodomy and is that still is that still a term that's used in in Great Britain oh yeah so like if something goes wrong oh bugger me and then you actually think about it and you're like that's really an inappropriate thing to say when you think about what you're actually inviting upon yourself um but it's it's seen as much less you Chey booger that's a yeah it's but it means it means same sex same sex intercourse is that what it means if you think about it yeah but in the same way the f bomb means sexual intercourse people don't drop that thinking of that it just becomes a word right that's so interesting yeah yeah all right what' you want to say about that Julia um so yeah this was before I think this was right before commmunication around that same time and so they're pointing out in the newspapers that he was accused or he is being accused of of homosexual relationships and then like you said John that was not among his list of reasons why he was excommunicated so okay yeah all right so because we know he was practicing quote spiritual wery that would probably make him bisexual is it maybe well that's what I think and that's I think that's what Quinn points out too is that this would be a form of like bisexuality okay but he was so close to Joseph that's interesting maybe we'll get to that all right yeah okay okay right so so then there's another case where Jus smth was accused of buery Mike do you want to read this one all right so this is from also from the wasp and this is Orson Pratt um is um he seems to accuse Joseph Smith of immoral acts with another man and so Joseph Smith says question to Elder Pratt have you personally a knowledge of any immoral act in me towards the female sex or in any other way answered by elder or some Pratt personally towards the female sex I have not historian mik D Michael Quinn clarified that since the same issue of the WASP had already raised the topic of Bennett's buggery and the prophet's alleged toleration of it Smith's or in any other way was an implicit challenge for Pratt to charge him with buggery as well Pratt declined to answer whether Joseph Smith had committed any immoral act with someone other than a woman but also declined to exonerate the profet from such a charge thank you yeah so I thought that was super interesting wait did you have a comment you I was say if I understood that correctly and he's saying like so have you seen me be sexually immoral with women or indeed with anyone as if to say like you know with men as well and basically prats like well not with women not with a woman yeah and we're pointing out that the illusion of the failure to charge him with men as well is interesting is that so putting our skeptic hats on what do we think I mean who who are we to question Michael Quinn right but what do yall think well it's not much to go on so there's there's really not a lot there because he just says personally towards the female sex I have not so it's it's very little but like I like the Quinn's like it's it might be enough to to say that Joseph Smith was also engaging could it also be Pratt's sensibilities that he couldn't even bring himself to conscience the idea of homosexuality and so doesn't want to do you know get what I'm saying yeah to say it like he wants to censor himself which which if that's the case even the WASP was kind of censoring like they oh we were going to say buger and then later they we'll see that some of the stories were changed um so maybe it's the sensibilities of that so yeah maybe maybe yeah it's it's weird because it reads like if I if I were to read that right now without any of that context from Michael Quinn I might think that Orson Pratt might be going like I have no idea what you're doing with other people but with with regards to females I haven't seen it so you could go so many different ways so I guess for me it's kind of like one of those things where it's so open-ended it's almost like you could draw your own conclusion based on kind of where you want to go with it but it is it's it's an interesting quote for sure it's just hard for me to like make sense of it and I don't know if that's um something where we could find like the longer uh records of if that's from like a disciplinary court or something where you could see if there's any context around it maybe there's immoral acts as far as like financial fraud or you know stuff like that I I I just don't know you know it kind of feels like maybe that's drawing too much out of it but it's certainly interesting yeah yeah that's that's good I think we always there's there's this thing presentism right where we assume the same cultural Moray and values then that we have now it's very possible that like same seex sexual relations in the late 20th century was viewed more severely than it was in the 1840s by Mormon church leaders right that it could have been seen as less of a big deal than like what Spence WBY Kimble wants to make it which is like an Abomination right MH it could have been just viewed as like oh you shouldn't do that I don't know do you know Julia yeah oh I don't know during The Stance during the time no I should read Quinn's book again though to see if he has any insights on that okay and what's interesting on on that point John is that what a lot of apologists like to say is oh you know standards would when they talk about marriage say another sexual interaction between people they like to say oh standards were different then you know people were getting married younger so yeah that would actually then play into that argument if they want to say that Sanders were different back then that's fair and that presentism argument is fair but then we have to look at the implications of that with homosexuality so yeah all right let's go to the next slide okay so then on one occasion so this is Bennett with higgy on one occasion Joseph Smith discovered Francis Higg with John C Bennett on a bed on the floor engaging in activity quote so revolting corrupt and disgusting that the editor of the times and Seasons censored the material from readers the censored article from the times and Seasons says I wanted to testify to this court so I guess it is a court record like you said Mike I wanted to testify to this court of what occurred a long time before John C Bennett left his this city I was called on to visit Francis M Higby I went and found him on the bed on the floor here follows testimony which is too IND delicate for the public eye or ear and we would here remark that so revolting corrupt and disgusting has been the conduct of most of this click um that we feel to dread having anything to do with the publication of the trials we will not not Hereafter we will not however offend the public eye or ear with a repetition of the foulness of their crimes anymore well there there goes my theory that it may not have been viewed as a as a significant or severe thing right they're calling it foul uh dread I mean but at the same time you have Joseph who doesn't excommunicate him for this at all like so well revolting corrupt and disgusting that's that's pretty extreme what what are the court proceedings I think that's interesting who who's on trial here I don't know I have to I have to read the whole full thing this I just pulled from Quinn's book so I'd have to read the whole thing to get context but it is 1844 that this is being published time kind of feels like quite a bit Nemo see if you can sleuth this out because if if if if uh if this is like a trial for John C Bennett because he like you know let's just say John C Bennett defied the prophet made the prophet look bad accused the prophet of polygamy which he was denying then let's just say they were trying to smear him in this court and so they charged him with something that everyone would be viewing as disgusting then that could just be a smear campaign now of course I'm just speculating but I mean certainly Joseph Smith and those around him wouldn't be uh above smearing someone with lies right y to discredit so to discredit um John C Bennett's testimony against Joseph they're trying to smear Bennett That's you're um so just as a figure yeah it was the Municipal Court uh of the city of navu Third Day the r ter before Alderman NK Whitney acting chief justice and Oldman Daniel H Wells William Marks auson Spencer George W Harris Gustavus Hills George A Smith and Samuel Bennett associate Justice presiding um exart Joseph Smith Senior on habius Corpus uh against messes syles and Rigden who are the council for Smith H case came before the port upon a return to RIT of habus Corpus which was issued by this court on the 6th of May uh instant upon Petition of Joseph Smith I'm not sure what any of this means yeah yeah I'm not either it feels like there was that there's that joke it's not a joke but it's like um I think it was John Larson when I was listening to the old Mormon Expressions episodes when I first started listening to stuff he would say it was always kind of like this this like joke that whenever someone accused Joseph Smith of something he would then accused them of that so like when he proposed to Nancy rigon and she rejected it and it got exposed and he accused her of kind of being a horror you know through the newspapers and in this case it almost makes me wonder if if John C Bennett has all this expose coming out and now Joseph Smith is trying to get out ahead of it and saying hey I saw this I saw that it's not to say it didn't or didn't happen feels like that two years after this is after Ben got booted out right yeah so his expose was published at the near the end of 42 and this is okay beginning mid of 44 yeah so yeah so I just wonder if that's like this is a continual response to all of these charges that are going out and I think Bennett is actively doing those like talks and lectures about this stuff right so I just wonder yeah that's what so it just feels like this could be one of those things where Joseph Smith's like oh I just thought of something that I saw because there's no as far as I could I mean I don't know if there's a contemporary disciplinary court record of it but if there's not it feels very interesting that you'd bring this up you know and I also wonder is um because I can't remember if Francis hick was still with the church at this point or not I'm assuming no oh that's a good point I'm not sure because that would be a really easy one to just go after it's kind of like when we talked about um the the three Witnesses and how they all got booted out of uh the church and then as soon as they got boot it out Joseph Smith rewrites a lot of the history because they're not there to say anything you know so I have you know it's just interesting I don't know the timeline of that but I would need to find that you know look at that well what does this mean to you Julia um yeah I guess it's just further Evidence um although you know like we're saying it's kind of questionable evidence it does seem likely based on all the evidence that John C bennon is a homosexual and he has relationships after Mormonism that um there's no reason I don't know like Jose is trying to smear him I guess um so I don't know one way or another whether to believe this or not um yeah I mean it it certainly Falls for me within the realm of credibility absolutely yeah and it and again his closeness to Joseph Smith you have to watch part one of the series they are so close that there it's I think we renamed the episode Joseph Smith navu puppet because John C Bennett was clearly Joseph's right-hand man so it's it's impossible to not at least Wonder right make that Association okay it is interesting though yeah Nemo did you find anything yeah yeah so I've just done a little bit of reading and basically it seems like the the circumstances of this court case are actually Joseph Smith Senior is um who passed away is because he passed away in 42 or yeah so I I wonder whether this is um because the undersigned is Joseph Smith Senior navu May 6 so I wonder whether at this point because Joseph Smith's father's passed away and Joseph Smith has a son called Joseph Smith at this point the third yeah is he now going by Joseph Smith Senor oh Joseph Smith Jr that's a good question is he now going by Joseph Smith Senor we clearly don't know what we're talking about here so if that's the case then this would be Joseph Smith um who was on trial and under arrest within the city of Illinois at this time uh within the custody of John D Parker um the deputy sheriff and basically Francis M higsby uh or Higby was Char was going after him for damages of $5,000 yep oh okay that's what this court case is about so he's trying so he's not he's not trying to put Bennett under the under the bus he's trying to throw hi Higby under the bus yeah and it's easy to do because John C Bennett's already an enemy right and so just as a quick timeline uh it says on June 30th 1842 Higby gave a sworn statement that Joseph Smith told him that John C Bennett could EAS could be easily put aside or drowned and no person will be the wiser for it um on January 15th of 1844 the navu municipal Court issued a warrant for higgy's arrest on the Affidavit of Orson Pratt so that kind of maybe shows why Orson Pratt's involved there um it says that Higg was present at a meeting of denters on April 28th on May 1st uh Higg filed that legal complaint uh this article's from uh May 15th and then on May 18th he was excommunicated from the church so definitely seems like he's going after Higg here maybe he's using Bennett because Bennett's already kind of an enemy of the church and it would be well he'd already been accused of bugy so why would yeah exactly so you know but that's it definitely shows that these things don't seem to have come up early and all of a sudden you know they come up with these these reasons and it doesn't mean it's not true it just means that it's awfully convenient sometimes when Joseph Smith pulls these things out as justifications for what he's doing or for what he's doing to others yeah we'll have to talk about those characters when we talk about the leaders of the church and the early church who left or were excommunicated we'll have to add hi and that'll be a future episode yeah yeah all right Julia what's next okay so there was a sermon by Brigham Young that also to this homosexuality of of John C bennon um John do you want to read this one sure sermon by Bigham Young on May 15 1844 Brigham Young gave a sermon published in the same times and Seasons quote I will make one statement in our conversation with Dr Bennett I told Dr Bennett that one charge was seducing women and leading young men into difficulty he admitted it if he let young men and women alone it would have been better for him in this same sermon Brigham was specifically referring to 21-year-old Francis M Higby that's times and Seasons 15 May 1844 page 539 now can you talk us through that Julia because I'm not totally understanding what briam is saying there so it sounds like he's bringing up you know he's bringing up Francis again so he's also of the opinion that Francis he's believing this homosexuality between Bennett and higgy and so what what I'm gathering and this could something different but because of the Higg reference it makes me think that he is talking about homosexual relationships but he's saying that Bennett was leading he was it to me it reads benett was seducing women and seducing men and leading them into difficulty that's what I'm gathering from that do you guys have other thoughts the thought that came to my mind immediately just because um maybe I'm a Brit and we do innuendo and and that sort of thing um it could also be was he ever trying to get the young men to engage in spiritual wery that's see that's another thing you can point out with the difficulty because he was trying to convince others yeah leading those young men into difficulty by trying to teach them that principle that was getting them in trouble yeah yeah and and that we know happened because well we we don't know for sure that he was accused of teaching other people because they all said that it came from Joseph Smith but you have that kind of that ring of like Joseph Smith's brother Bennett I think there's like two other men so you could make the argument that Brigham Young here is saying that Dr Bennett was the ring leader teaching these younger men spiritual wery which led them into difficulty so yeah that that's another maybe more plausible can I note something that's weird to me sure why why is Brigham Young only concerned if it's young men and women why is he okay if it's not young he throws young in there as if Higg or Bennett were doing this with just mature young mature men and women no harm no foul am I misreading that I'm having to avoid the pun going judia oh no well that's what he's saying he's saying young um which again he's he's taking young women in to P me Joseph Smith certainly was I don't know the ages of of a Brigham's wife so I don't know I don't know well there there's the hypocrisy of the fact that Joseph and Brigham married Teena young teenage girls but there's also the implication that if they're not Young no harm no foul at least that's how I'm reading it yeah it can be read that way so there's a lot of different ways to take this so maybe it's like if he' left the young women yeah if he' left the young men and women for us then we wouldn't have bothered just right that's dark yeah that's dark okay all right that's good this is good let's keep going okay so Mike you've referenced this one before I've heard you I think you even quoted in our last episode do you want to go ahead and read this one yeah so this is the uh idea that Joseph Smith teaches that sin is not sin and so this is on the 7th of November 1841 Joseph Smith says if you do not accuse each other God will not accuse you if you have no accuser you will enter Heaven and if you will follow the revelations and instructions with go which God gives you through me I will take you into heaven as my backload if you will not accuse me I will not accuse you if you will throw a cloak of Charity over my sins I will over yours for charity charity cover a multitude of sins what many people call sin is not sin and um yeah this was a huge happiness because this is Joseph Smith telling everybody hey guys if you don't accuse me of anything I am going to leave you alone and it really shows that this is how he operates as well so it's like the judge not lest you be judged thing has been taken to then go so if you don't judge me I won't judge you and then we'll all just be fine it's sort of anything goes it's it's literally like anything goes in navoo as long as we don't uh accuse each other of anything how how can it not be Joseph Smith how is that not what it's saying there anything goes but then this is where Julia Julia no no I was just going to agree with you that's exactly what it sounds like it's saying and this is also 1841 so this is before Bennett and so like I'm it's curious I'm curious to know what Joseph was trying to maybe say or cover up for or I I could tell you so this is right around the time that polygamy is about to ramp up right and go back to that slide real quick this this is the line right here go back to the slide um and if you will follow the revelations and instructions which God gives you through me that's basically saying if Joseph Smith tells you to do something and you do it you cannot be a sinner if you don't accuse me of doing it I mean like that is it's not about it's not saying to the whole church hey um Nemo if you want to go uh sleep with a bunch of young women and you guys don't accuse each other it's okay because it has to be through Joseph Smith so there still is that structure going down and this is basically to me we did this on the happiness this is basically Joseph Smith putting out there hey if I tell you to do something and you do it you can't sin that that's so you you didn't finish the sentence it's the happiness letter episode on LDS discussions yeah and uh everyone go back and watch that especially if you haven't because it's certainly one of the most important moments in Joseph Smith's history is the Nancy Rigden uh happiness letter yeah and is a quick note this I'll tie into the last episode a little bit because there are some people that are saying Joseph Smith didn't write the happiness letter and you read this this quote here which is not disputed this is basically the theme of the happiness letter which is what might seem wrong in some circumstan is right you know and so this is basically Joseph Smith laying down the foundation of yeah I'm going to tell you to do things that you think are horrible but they're absolutely cool because they're through me you know they're through God you know because of me so it it really is um this is one of the most important quotes you'll have because it really illustrates how Joseph Smith is able to flip uh morality upside down by saying hey if you just do what God wants you to do which I can only tell you then then you're cool it it's also a threat right if you will not accuse me I will not accuse you so it's like I'm coming after you it's sort of this mafioso if you accuse me of anything you're toast right am I am I am I over reading that that's what I'm seeing there that's what I'm seeing is and and we know and we know that he smeared any woman that denied his polygamist advances that then spoke out about it publicly he would shame them Am I Wrong Julia no that's very correct yeah it's factual right he would call them Horrors he would call them horrible humans right well he did he did that with n Rigdon when she when she rejects his anancy called her a woman about the town and these sorts of things right yep yeah yeah wow he's he's literally giving us the pages from his Playbook he's saying the quiet Parts out loud because I think he's getting to the point where he can right you know he's getting more and more powerful he can kind of just be quite Brazen about this stuff but also the cat's getting out of the bath and he's got to develop a way to deal with the cat cat's getting out of the bag yeah cuz this is where it's really about to ramp up this is like um this is like the justification for soaking in many ways it's like if we don't move it's not a sin it is still a sin and it's the same thing as like if you don't grasp me up if you don't accuse me of anything then it's not a sin it's like we don't have these conditions of like if x then it's not a sin God's pretty like firm about these things he doesn't want you to do uh and Joseph Smith knows that but he's having to come up with these external justifications for well if XY conditions are met I.E I've told you to do it and you don't say anything about it then it's fine but just like we all know the argument for soaking is ridiculous this argument is also ridiculous well I still don't think soaking is real but but uh I will will note that I know but the point is to to what you're saying is you know if if you're with someone in your BYU and you're like hey let's soak if we don't tell anyone there's no sin Joseph Smith said it but that's why that line is so important because he's saying through me so that's like the ultimate you know trump card on everyone else which is to say that John C Bennett can take those exact teachings and go to a woman and say hey let's have sex because it's not a sin if you don't accuse me and I don't accuse you but then Joseph Smith can jump and say hey I did not tell you guys to do that and that's that's really where he's he's once again asserting himself over everybody else and he is inserting himself as the moral compass of everybody else as well yeah he's also saying buggery isn't a sin right homosexuality isn't a sin if there's no do it if he tells you to do it and I think that's what I found interesting about this slide is because Joseph never accused he was never on trial for that that's not why he was excommunicated so like I think even Quinn pulls out this quote to say that maybe Joseph didn't really care or that he didn't mind that that benett was engaging in these things well because I I would think that Joseph Smith is like at this point if if you're the guy that if we take a position that God didn't tell Joseph to practice polygamy if if you take that position and this is a creation of Joseph's mind then Joseph Isle clearly sexually experimental right he's willing to try different ways of having sex with people uh under different uh arrangements and whatnot so he is likely to be quite sexually liberal I would imagine and so maybe he personally doesn't mind particularly as long as no one's accusing anyone of anything yeah yeah all right Julia let's go to the next slide okay so then I wanted to talk about there was um this idea of why Sodom was destroyed and so we're I'm just going to work through this slide and we can talk um we can you know comment whenever you want to um so mormonism's founding Prophet also revised the common interpretation that God destroyed Sodom because its inhabitants preferred sex between men and again a lot of these are from Quinn from his samesex Dynamics Wilford woodruff's Journal gives us Joseph's revision recorded on January 22nd of 1843 second SEC 22nd Sunday President Joseph Smith delivered an interesting discourse at the temple to a large congre conation in consequence of rejecting the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the prophets whom God hath sent the judgments of God have rested upon people upon people cities and nations in various ages of the world which was the case with the city of Sodom and Gomorrah who were destroyed for rejecting the prophets and then if also if you look in Ezekiel in the Bible itself it it puts away this idea that they were destroyed because of samees seex relationships in Ezekiel 16:49 it says behold this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom Pride fullness of bread and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy and the Bible and Bible scholars agree that Sodom was destroyed because they were not hospitable to strangers not for same sex not for sex between men and John your episode with um Dan mlen he also brings this up he's a Bible scholar and he also says that this is not the reason why that Sodom was destroyed because they weren't hospitable or they weren't good hosts not because anything to do with um same-sex relationships right but equally not because they failed to follow the prophets either but Joseph Smith's going that's one way of then essentially putting Terror on people being like look entire city's been destroyed because people didn't listen to people like me so you better listen true very true this is the serving quote you're gonna see yeah yeah I just thought it was also interesting that he's he's reframing the common idea of Sodom and gamor and so again this makes me think that um Joseph probably didn't care you know he's sexually experimenting and I don't think he had I don't think he had a negative opinions and from what it looks like it doesn't seem like he had as big of a deal he saw it as as big of a deal okay got it okay what else okay next slide okay so yeah so this one um Quinn pulls this one out as well he there's a lot of debate with in the in the early Christianity or early Mormonism is that people had this Victorian love for each other they would they're just like women would hold hands women would kiss like even men would kiss even a lot of the prophets kiss each other um in the past and so it's hard to know what is homosexuality and what is is like this Victorian love I don't know how else to explain it um Nemo do you want to read this the quote itself yeah Joseph Smith once said to bring it to the understanding it meaning the resurrection would be upon the same principles though two who were very friends indeed should lie down upon the same bed at night locked in each other's Embrace talking of their love and should awake in the morning together they could immediately renew their conversation of Love even while rising from their bed yeah and that's from Wolford Wood's Journal did you guys have thoughts on that it's it doesn't make a lot of sense so read it again talk talk us to it Julia talk us to it so he's he's teaching a sermon about the resurrection it's like it would be just the same like we we don't need to be worried I think he's saying like we don't need to be afraid of of death and Resurrection it would would be on the same principles as if two of you were to two friends were to lie down together on the same bed locked in each other's Embrace and he's talking about two men and they should waake together and renew their conversation of love so like in my head and maybe this is presentism um in my head it seems like there's no straight there's no straight way to explain this um but again this could be the victorianism it's an unnecessary detail right because if he if he if he wants to explain this simply he just says it's like going to bed and then waking up the next day and everything being as normal that's that's what he's trying to say right there's no need for this sort of homoerotic detail of being locked in the Embrace of someone you love on the same bed and like that yeah it's it's just a bit odd I find it odd I don't know what it says because like you said the problem is there's so much euphemism and innuendo in so much of this I think we I've said made this point before but it makes it very difficult to know um because the whole point of eemis and inuendo is to hide your true meaning sometimes right I wonder what point Joseph was trying to make there well yeah like like I said it's basically just that the resurrection is quick and is like going to sleep and waking up again but which he could unary detail yeah how okay maybe I'm being confused here but how does this quote imply that it's two men as opposed to just two people that were just talking is it because we're saying friends as opposed to like marriage or lovers or whatever um so I P this out of Quinns yeah that's a good point because he doesn't specifically say in this BL um but I should look up and see if he does specify because Quinn made it seem like it was two men so maybe I just didn't get enough of the quote but youall have to look at that look at that I mean we we should acknowledge and we probably already said this that that Michael Quinn the the super well-known uh Mormon historian who was picked you know Yale PhD picked by Leonard Arrington to be an assistant church historian during those Camelot years of uh quote transparent Mormon history at Church headquarters in the 70s he himself was was gay he was in a mixed orientation marriage I should add there's a brand new book coming out um by signature books called chosen path which is Michael Quinn's Memoir he passed away I believe it was last year but it was pretty recently and so I think M obviously what's that oh was it was it was it five years ago yeah time goes by way too fast I might be wrong don't quote me no I'm sure you're right um anyway it's clear that he he was looking for uh issues around hom sexuality because of his own personal story and and background and interest so you know we can just acknowledge that that that he's used he's he's affected by his bias in these quotes he's picking right yeah he could be seeing things that maybe they don't mean and I think he points that out really well no you were right it was April of 2021 um but yeah you're you're right that he could be trying to find things that aren't there but I think he's forward about that I think he's saying like there's really not a lot to go on but this can be seen this yeah it's at least it's at least good to know about it right right yeah yeah okay okay so then so then so that's there's really not a whole lot now that I'm looking at all this there's really not a whole lot to go off of benett being homosexual I think there's enough especially I guess what happens after that's my biggest convincing thing is hit the events that happen after Mormonism but so are we are we done with the homosexuality topic or does it keep going in slides it trickles in a little bit but yeah that's that was the bulk of it just in his Mormonism so what are we transitioning to what happened to him the Fate yeah okay yeah so this is like from when he leaves from when he leaves navoo and then what happens on and then we do have we do have I want to talk about what happens to him after Mormonism because I still feel like it weighs like patterns um like future patterns can also reflect on yeah yeah and and Le leave for those who didn't or don't remember or didn't watch the past episodes where did we leave off with John C Bennett okay so in the last episode we talked about how he was um there was a lot of he was accusing Joseph Smith of spiritual wrey and he was being accused or excuse me was he I don't know the LA the language of polygamy spiritual wiery and everything like that confuses me so he was accusing Joseph right so he was accusing Joseph of being with women and he was being accused of being with women and he was also we brought in abortions too and how that was maybe how Joseph was keeping this quiet um and things like that and then in the beginning we talked about how close he was with Joseph and all the roles that he that you had mentioned and then how he was quickly excommunicated because all this stuff was coming out and so um and then we talked about how um Bennett tells the story of Joseph Smith pulling a gun on him unless he were to sign this affidavit saying that um spiritual wfre wasn't anything to do about Joseph um I don't think the gun story is I don't believe the gun Story part but him signing the document makes sense to me um and then so this is where we're going to pick up it's like right after he leaves Nabu okay so he's been excommunicated and he's basically being run out of town is that fair to say yes yeah his autobiographer or excuse me his biography doesn't seem to think he's like there was maybe we talked about this before he says he leaves navu really quickly because like he was thanked publicly as the mayor he kind of hung around for a little while but then all of a sudden he just leaves and so I'm not exactly sure what prompted that and I don't even know that his biographer knows but so that's where we're going to pick up is his quick leaving and and just sort of like a PR expert would want it to to minimize the public Scandal but then to make him disappear as possible as soon as the public Scandal was diffused is that fair to say yeah I think so okay all right so let's jump back to the slide what happened to John C Bennett okay so on June 21st of 1842 Bennett aboly left navu and headed for Springfield Bennett claimed that on the way there he was followed by Mr op Rockwell a danite who who on his arrival late at night made strict inquiries as to where I was his ostensible business was was to put a letter in the post office but judge ye the real reason I was prepared for the gentleman and he approached me not but another Swift writer Captain John D Parker another day night followed me to Springfield to carry a letter to Dr Helm but he had another object and you will and you may well suppose what it was sorry I told Captain Parker that I was aware of his object but I feared him not in Virginia in Cass County on my return Parker met me again and and I called attention to the stage driver to him who thereupon put two additional balls into his pistol and then informed me he was ready for him or any other person having the same object in view all right so tell us who the day notes are we did we cover that Mike in uh in our LDS discussions episode so far because that's that's one of the top 50 that's one of the top 50 issues that bothers people about Mormon history right Mike yeah we we brought him up throughout like but not in a in a real like comprehensive way so I think we mentioned him when it kind of fit into but we didn't do anything like okay individually we should definitely do that one so Julia tell us tell us just briefly who the dats are okay so I don't know so outside of Bennetts I they're kind of new to me as well but so it's these group of people that work so historians will debate on where where they extended but in Kirtland um this I think it started in Kirtland um please correct me if that's maybe be Missouri yeah I think it was in Ohio I think it was okay and so he Joseph gathered a lot of these men and he had them so some of this might be incorrect some of this is coming from Bennett he had them swear an oath and and one of some of the other sources not Bennett say that there was at least 300 of these danites it swore their allegiance to Joseph Smith as the leader and that they would do whatever was needed to be done and a lot of times what that involved was usually violence um from what my understanding is is so they were sort of like the bouncers for Mormonism I don't know how does anyone have a better discription in that they would threaten they would intimidate and if necessary be willing to do violence to enforces to protect Joseph Smith yeah they started in Missouri I'm wrong because in Missouri is where they had the Hans Mill and all that right so that's was kind of happening at the same time so yeah there was kind of like a almost like a special ops force of Mormonism that was willing to do things other people wouldn't maybe Porter Rockwell is the most well-known one of them yeah I definitely associate them with with Missouri yeah they were definitely Missouri and just a quick point about them or or about the individuals involved in this story that we've just looked at is that John D Parker uh in that Court proceeding we were looking at earlier was the deputy sheriff in hanok uh County um and was the one whose custody Joseph Smith was in during these Court proceedings so Joseph Smith was in the custody of AD danite that's really so that shows you how like within Illinois itself so much of the church was controlling everything that was going on and the loyalty to Joseph was Ultimate like he was in custody but to someone who had sworn an oath that they would protect him so that's super interesting well that was a big part of the whole issue like you know when they talk about why the mob attacked Joseph Smith and killed him it's you know um I forgot what it was it was one of the historians um like John maybe John Hammer or some someone they were saying like a lot of it had to do with the fact that these these people just were like he is constantly surrounding himself with people that just going to support what he needs to do and so um that's hius Corpus becomes this big deal and because they know if he if they can't get him out of Nauvoo he will never pay for any crimes he commits because they're basically it's all fixed and so that is a big part of the unrest towards Joseph Smith is that he's created this power structure that he is 100% in charge of yeah okay so let's take it back to the slide Julia yeah so he's just telling the story that he's been he's leaving navoo and he's saying um these two men are following him and he's ready for them and he's um I think it's funny that he's he's both men are like oh no I'm just gonna mail mail this letter I'm not going to kill you um but he's like I know that you are and so he's just he's kind of making himself the hero and um like this persecution of I don't know it was just funny the way that Bennett says it to me um but also like it wouldn't surprise me at all if this were to have actually happened because of what happen later and the parts that we know touch on reality is that or and Porto Rockwell you know was you know is likely the person that attempted the assassination on governor little bogs of Missouri he he bragged about doing violence for Joseph Smith so I mean whether or not this happened with John Bennett that checks out with what we know about Orin Porter Rockwell and just him mentioning the danites and feeling fear of violence that checks out in terms of just what we know about both Missouri and navoo and Joseph surrounding himself with protectors willing to do violence right our import to Rockwell the one that um Joseph promised if he didn't he gave him like a Samson promise like if he he blessed him if he didn't cut his hair he would be no man would be able to defeat him could be true I thought there was I've heard this yeah yeah but you can Google it Nemo you can always Google those things oh no well we can let the audience tell us in the comments that's more fun okay all right that's good okay so whether or not Bennett's lying here this definitely squares with what we know about church history right yeah absolutely yeah okay all right okay so in his book so this is more about the danites in his book John CET claims that the Mormon danites were called the daughters of Zion and gave word for word the supposed oath and again we don't I don't know for sure taken by the secret band so this is the oath actually Mike do you want to read the oath yeah so this is um the supposed oath taken by the daughters of Zion which is the danites and it says in the name of Jesus Christ the son of God I do solemnly obligate myself to myself ever to regard the prophet and the first presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of the latterday Saints as the supreme god that I will stand by my brethren in danger or difficulty and will uphold the presidency right or wrong and that I will ever conceal and never reveal the secret purpose of the society called Daughter of Zion should I ever do the same I hold my life as the forfeiture in a cauldron of boiling oil oh man can I just highlight a couple things there yeah please so like the first presidency of the church and the prophet are the supreme god that's just horrendous uh basically pledging allegiance to very flawed men as as Divinity that's outrageous if it's true we know that Joseph Smith had himself by the end ordained as king of the world so I mean we know Joseph's not Beyond uh sort of extreme worship and adoration so I mean this fits at least that but supreme god takes it to 11 as as the movie uh spinal tap says but then also uphold the presidency writer wrong that squares with d h ox's comment you know in the past 30 40 years that it's wrong to criticize the Brethren even if the criticism is accurate we know that D Oaks has said that in modern times so it doesn't seem oh we also have the Mormon Temple ceremony oath to never speak ill of the Lord is Anointed and since the church admits that leaders make mistakes that means you uphold the the church leadership right or wrong I mean right I've never heard of daughters of Zion as another name for the danites so that's new to me but I I'm Rusty on church history and then this idea of like forfeiting your life I mean that squares with my temple ceremony oath to slit my own throat or have my heart cut out of my chest or to be disemboweled if I ever uh violated my temple Covenant so that idea of swearing violent death upon yourself absolutely squares with the Mormonism that I that I know of right whether this is actually true sorry I just I that that triggered me Julia just to add to your downl jokes bit Henry bearing did say uh is a it is a sin we must repent of daily to think to even think of weaknesses in those that we have pledged to sustain meaning the first presy in cor of the 12 said um wait which session that's insane uh I can get you a citation for that okay perfect that's that's crazy but also this this made me think of my own Temple experience where one thing that really bothered me in the temple is that we don't Covenant there was a there's a there's a specific Covenant where you Covenant to the Church of Jesus Christ lday Saints like your very lies of necessary and that always bothered me because why aren't we covenanting our lives to Jesus or God like why is it to the church and here in this slide you like it says the first presidency as the Supreme God they're not covenanting to God they're covenanting to the first presidency so anyway that was and they would just say they are the mouthpiece of God in Jesus so they would say whether by my voice meaning Jesus or the voice of my servants the first presidency it is the same and that's Mormon doctrine that that the first presidency speaks for Jesus for and in behalf of God and Jesus my last two videos have been all about the conflation between church leaders and Jesus Christ and how they demand the same loyalty that you would give to Jesus uh a citation for that quote from Henry bying it's his talk the power of sustaining Faith from the April 2019 General Conference okay dang so I would just the only thing I'll note on this is that this slide and the last one they both feel like he has John Bennett has this this Insider knowledge and it does feel like he's weaving it through what he knows I'm not saying that this is false but there's no other attribution of this anywhere at least I'm doing a quick Google search I've never heard of it before it just makes me wonder if he knew like some of the temple ceremony stuff and then all of a sudden he's like okay I can kind of work this into something else because it's possible it's true but and it it tracks like you said a lot of the stuff tracks with the things that are being said at the time which makes it really hard to know um it's just also one of those things where it almost feels too good to be true like it feels almost too much like someone's writing this to make it seem like the church like Joseph Smith is just crazy with power although you know they also say Joseph Smith wasn't necessarily running the dayite so it it's just it's really messy but yeah it's it tracks in a lot of ways Nemo um I just I think a real good way of suming that up is to say it's almost like impressionist art a lot of what John C Bennett is like impressionist art gives you the feeling the flavor is there this very much feels like early Mormonism but the exact details probably not and and Mike I think it's really important you're reminding Us in this episode like we tried to remind people in the past two that John C Bennett is not always a reliable narrator and in some instance is he's completely unreliable so everything John C Bennett says everyone should always take with a grain of salt and and form their own conclusions but but he was a scoundrel flat out he was a scoundrel so we need to always remember that yeah yeah oh go ahead oh I was just gonna say I I don't think the daughters of Zion is a real thing I think is something that he's just making up um I I bring it up because it's really interesting and also the oath is the main thing that I wanted to talk about but then also he he goes on with his stories of the danites and then I and I do have some questions with the for Mormon historians but we can talk about that in in a few slides so what yeah and and one one small thing I'll add here is this is one little reason why I think there is reason to want to be skeptical of the happiness letter because that's coming from John C Benet even though we're told that's a letter he has that really isn't disputed as far as you know um Sydney R and Nancy R come out don't come out and say the letter is completely made up so that's why and the teachings are good and it's very long um but you know this is why because he does have an Insider knowledge and he's really good and embellishing like in that last slide where he's like I knew they had a gun on them but I wasn't afraid it's like shut up dude yes you were like come on No One's Gonna you're not going to see some dude come up that you think might kill you with a gun in their pocket and just be like yeah I was cool as a cucumber I mean come on so I really like you point out yeah I really like that you pointed out even the last episode where you're like Bennett is really he's really out there with his stories so why is the happiness letter so almost subtle and what it's saying doesn't read like Bennett's writing it it doesn't like and that's the thing like so to to follow up on on that like one of the complaints is that he writes it and the the the counter to that is why if he was writing it look at this oath look at the happiness letter if he was writing the happiness letter I would guar I would bet money that John C Bennett would have something like in there it is permissible for you to have sex with me as a concubine or some language that's so loaded that it would be the most damaging whereas the happiness letter if you read it on its own and you're not really thinking of the context it doesn't read as manipulative and controlling as it is and that's why you know to what Julia say it doesn't even feel like it's written by the same person because that one is very subtle it's very symbolic it's very um understated whereas John C Bennett in his expose is trying to hammer that Joseph Smith is an evil person and so they don't that's why it doesn't match to me but it also is why yeah he's trying to sell a book and so that's why there is to me I can understand why people are skeptical because this stuff to me reads as somebody who is trying to embellish what he knows into something that's absolutely scandalous so you should you should apply that same skepticism everywhere I try to say that and so I need to do that um and we all need to do that with the happiness letter as well although we we did do that in that epode and tried to address that as well okay makes sense all right nice y'all yeah so this next story so that you'll see there's a gentleman here on the visuals there's a gentleman here in address and so this next slide will clear up why that why that's there all right okay so this is in this is from the samoo journal Bennett recounted this is from the Sango Journey July 22nd of 1842 Bennett recounted that Smith had threatened to kill him and had ordered some of the dayite band to affect the murder clandestinely according to Bennett on the evening of of June 29th 12 of the danites dressed in female apparel approaching my boarding house and this is General Robinsons that he was staying at in Nauvoo and their Carriage Wheels wrapped with blankets and their horses feet covered with cloth to prevent noise about 10 o'clock and this is in the evening for the purpose of conveying me off and assassinating me that's prevent disclosures but I so admir but I was so admirably prepared with arms as were also my friends that after prowling around the house for some time they retired I'm still not understanding why there's a man in the dress there though so he's so they're dressed in women's apparel so I think why they're called oh dressed it's right there dressed in female apparel right so what's going on there Julia tell us what you think's going on there I think Bennett's just I don't I think he just blowing smoke but he's saying that that these danites were called the daughters of Zion and they would dress in women's clothing and they even they were came and they were trying to be really secretive they wrapped blankets on the hes feet and on the wagons because it was too loud I don't know why they couldn't just walk because NAU I don't know but anyway and then he said that they were going to kill him but they were but he was really prepared and the people he was living with were really prepared that they just went away after a while so it it really gives me that bit where he's like being so admirably prepared really gives me like it came to pass that II being exceedingly Young never less being large in stature it's like II being a big dude was like all good it's it's giv me those same Vibes it's like Bennett's like but I was just so well prepared they couldn't come near me it's like come on man yeah I think Nemo you I think you mentioned in the last one that like I like there's enough in Mormonism that he didn't have to make stuff up yeah exact he didn't have to have them in dresses it it's very likely that Joseph could have sent some danites to try and off him like that is possible but yeah the details of them being dressed as women why does that make a difference maybe he thinks that because he's been accused of being such a ragam muffin and sleeping with so many women that people would for some reason expect a load of women to turn up at his house in the middle of the night and that was the ruse but let's be clear it could have happened we don't know we don't know we're speculating yeah yeah yeah yeah but like Mike said I don't think the daughters of Zion exists anywhere else outside of Bennett's book I don't think any will which seems to be a reference to the whole it's it's almost like he's created this narrative that the daughters of Zion uh are some sort of it's the way that the danites clandestinely assassinate people dressed as women to hide their tracks yeah which makes no sense is odd okay this reminds me of uh I was just I was just G to say this reminds me of the movie Home Alone and Bennett's inside getting all this crap together and they got the women outside and they're just too afraid cuz they think there's this party going on it's it to me it's silly but but yeah I mean we don't know but it just doesn't it doesn't make sense it's strange credulity if you're going to kill someone and you don't want to draw attention you're not going to s a b send a bunch of dudes dress as women to a house that's going to draw attention it just makes no sense but okay all right okay yeah but but that's what Bennett claimed yeah Bennett claimed claimed okay all right okay so this is from fwn Brody and I do have a little bit of push back so but this is in her book um of no man knows my history she claims she says there is no reliable evidence that the dayite organization was continued in Illinois except among J's personal bodyguards so again like we talked about with or and Porto Rockwell white uniforms not robes as been it described in his book were part of the military attire so she's saying he's even getting the the costumes wrong John D Lee one of Joseph's bodyguards probably wore his red sash in later years and when he went to when when he went to dances in southern Utah so she it explains a lot yeah so she's saying like there's no evidence that the danites existed past she said into Illinois I don't know whether they would have moved on from Missouri I don't know that specifically but so she's saying every to me it reads like John C Bennett none of this is real because the Danes weren't a thing anymore although if you're she did say that they would existed as Joseph's bodyguard but also my thoughts are if they're really taking an oath for for their whole life to to see Joseph as the supreme god why would that go away yeah like in NAU like if you've made a covenant it persists anyway so I have questions about that but well yeah like once a danite always a danite right and right right I would I would think that maybe what for bro is saying is that there's no evidence of them being acting as an organized group anymore but I would all those individual members exist like those people a lot of those people survived and their Oaths were for their Oaths were until their death so it's not like they ever renounced their Oaths their day night oath right yeah also several of the danites as I understand it well let's just say several of the perpetrators of the mountain meals Massacre were associated with Joseph Smith in either Missouri or uh Illinois as danites or protectors including John D Lee himself who was ultimately framed um for for the mountain medows Massacre so there was violence very explicit violence that happened after Joseph's death in association with the people who I think are associated with the danites right yeah so those violent individuals didn't stop being violent individuals just because the danite stopped meeting as a group if they needed to yeah yeah I think the church claims that the danites and maybe somebody looked this up I think it was like five months it was like a very short period in Missouri that I think and so it's interesting to me that if they've made these outs and there's still stories of coming out in in Illinois or even like Bennett's or John De le is wearing his sash in Utah like and these violence acts are still happening anyway so maybe they didn't maybe they were organized formally but the danits were still a thing on out through the Oaths were the Oaths were until death full stop right yeah yeah and the temple and the temple Covenant was to to give your own lives if necessary for the building up and the strengthening of the Church of Jesus Christ of latterday saints yeah also full stop right yeah but we're also making the assumption that that oath from John C Bennett is is accurate and so I would I would again point out that's the only instance we have so there there may not be an oath or maybe there's an oath that they take on their own you know that we don't know about so I would argue to Julia's point and to all of your points that they came from Missouri to Illinois and they were probably ready to do things that they needed to do but it wasn't as active because they weren't having the kind of uh mob violence that they saw obviously in Missouri especially early on in navoo so you know because they were in charge by that point yeah yeah exactly so I think Fon Brody's probably right in the sense of it wasn't like this organized constant thing but they were probably there so you know yeah well they had a militia yeah yeah yeah yeah exactly it just evolved okay yeah okay so I just wanted to look at the church's official stance on the danites oh so yeah this is where it talks about that so historians generally concur that Joseph Smith approved of the danites but that it probably was not briefed on all their plans and likely did not sanction the full range of their activities danites existed for only five months from June through October in 1838 and were only ever active in two counties in the Northwest Missouri though the existence of the danites was shortlived it resulted in a long-standing and much embellished myth about a secret society of Mormon Vigilantes well I'm sorry but you can't say Joseph Smith approved of a group of violent Vigilantes but he didn't sanction all their actions I like yes but he is responsible for them because he forms the in the first place so they're they're trying to somehow put Joseph Smith Beyond responsibility for whatever it was the danites got up to he's 100% responsible even if he didn't know about what they're getting up to he's responsible for it because he created them especially especially if an oath like that existed at any point again we don't know this is from Bennett like of course this is going to carry on like these things back in the box like yeah what they're not saying there is that everyone renounced their Deni Oaths after the five-month period they're certainly not saying that and they're not mentioning that the temple ceremony had Oaths of loyalty until death so they're or gruesome deaths yeah right sorry in the temple like that just even even Oaths aside once you give men like this the ability to go around and enact Justice in that way and you give them that kind of power it's a bit Pandora's boxes you can't put these men back in a box and control them again in the same way these as we see with John D Lee it goes on throughout their lives yeah the mountain M's Massacre is a great example so this is the this is a clear attempt of the church to bracket and limit what they know is problematic Behavior without giving all the information that would show that the effects of the danites lived on far beyond that 5mon period in in Missouri yeah once God justifies that behavior it will continue right yeah they're like it's a long-standing and much embellished myth if you hear about the danites after this point like it's all like anyway yeah they're trying to really control that what they're also not mentioning is Brigham Young's blood atonement doctrine that led to the death I'm sure of of several people you know mhm well and again with the I'm interested in the blood atonement because in Dan or in John C Bennett's book he alludes to Joseph Smith teaching the blood atonement yeah so that would be really interesting to see we should do it we should Julia put that on our list of episodes to do Mike and Julia a a blood atonement episode yeah all right let's keep going okay so this is one thing that I pulled out just from this is just from I did a study on the Sango Journal just to see whether the day nights still persisted or what what they were doing so in the 1840s the day nights appeared in at least four articles of the Sangamon Journal most of those were in conjunction with John C Bennett so take that with a grain of salt but there was one article in 1846 that was submitted by William Smith Joseph Smith's brother and then I have the the dates of those four articles I just think that's really interesting should we read that should we read that little article blurb on the left um sure like uh yeah this is this my eyesight's probably not gonna be read does somebody else want I can see it I can see it okay uh so is this the is this the 1846 November 5th um Edition or not do we know I actually I think it might be the July 1 one but that's a good question I should have written it down okay it says it says so this is in this is in navu 1842 to 1846 somewhere between there it says the danites foul murder exclamation point we copy the following from the C casala Republican it has long been understood that committees were sent about the country from The Establishment at navu requir iring the members of Joe Smith's church to pay tithes and offerings for the purpose of building the Temple or fortification at that place the commands of Joe in this particular are we suppose to be implicitly obeyed in the case before us the individual who declined the order of Joe's servants paid the penalty of the refusal his house was robbed and himself shot dead in his field so this is an accusation that someone who didn't tithe and Obey Joseph Smith was murdered basically and they're and they're bringing up the danites um as to add credibility to the story or because they heard that it was a danite murder right yeah yeah they probably heard that it was the danites and that's why they're tying it specifically to them or Joseph Smith's buddies or followers and Mike I saw a little bit of a shrug on your part obviously it could be anti- Mor people hate the church and they're just trying to make false associations is that what you're thinking well I think it's also kind of like like a thing that is Sensational right so you see that and it's it draws attention I'm not saying they're they're lying I'm not saying they're doing it to to incite people they might be but it also when you when you start it's like if you think about our current climate you've got labels to Define you know whether it's politics or religion or anything you've got these labels and once they take on man people just keep using that label because it's it's sensationalistic so it could just be that because people are like there's this thing and we're now going to associate it because it it allows us to Define it you know so I'm kind of rambling a bit but it just could be a term that people kind of think is interesting yeah and he's calling him Joe anytime they call him Joe it's chances are they don't like the church right yeah all right but we don't need to keep repeating that we could we'll let viewers and listeners decide what they believe and don't yeah so I just wanted to go go ahead so I'm trying to find stuff on the danai oath while we're talking and I keep finding this other oath that is just not sourced and it's interesting because it does feel similar to what John Bennett says do you guys want me to read it real quick sure it's quick it says in the name of Jesus Christ the son of God I do Covenant and agree to support the first presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in all things right or wrong I will Faithfully guard them and report to them the acts of all men as far as in my power lies I will assist in executing all the decrees of the first president patriarch or president of the 12 and that I will cause all who speak evil of the presidency or of the church to Die the death of denters or apostates unless they speedily confess and repent for pestilence persecution and death shall follow the enemies of Zion I will be a swift Herald of Salvation and messenger of peace to the Saints and I will never make known the secret purposes of this society called the destroying Angel my life being the forfeiture in a fire of burning tar and brimstone so help me God and keep me steadfast what's the source Mike I wonder find it well it's just a random text on the internet like it's everywhere it must come from a Bookman it sounds like Bill Hickman his his whole book he has a book called The destroying Angel and that's sounds like I mean I don't know for sure if that's the source but that sounds like that might be a good place yes I would love to know where it comes from so we'll ask our viewers and listeners to do that research and in the comments they'll let us know and then we'll mention it next episode yeah for sure okay thanks Julia what were you going to say oh just going back to the slides so it I was just wanted to point out also in Utah so at Utah of course burgamy is teaching the blood atonement and there's a lot more violence going on especially during the Reformation um so during the Utah period this same newspaper the day nights were referenced 41 times between 1850 and 1859 and and then 10 times during 1860 and 1869 and so like so they're ramping up in Utah so like the church to for the church to say that it's they're just a myth or like a long-standing what what was the wording again like if it for the church to say that it's a myth doesn't feel very honest uh uh yeah though the existence of the day nights was shortlived it resulted in a long-standing and much embellished myth much embellished myth yeah about a secret society of Mormon Vigilantes you juxtapose the church calling it much embellished myth with all those instances that you just mentioned 41 times in a single decade and 10 times in another decade that's good research Julia nice work yeah I just anyway so I wanted to so I guess I kind of wanted to push back with Brody but like at the same time she didn't she just said organized she just said we it wasn't an organized thing which I wouldn't argue with her about that but but I definitely I would definitely push back on the church to say that's not accurate yeah check out my check out my interview with Barbara Brown about the Mountain Meadows Massacre because or or check out her book with Richard Turley because regardless of whether they use the word danite with the Mormon reformation and Brigham Young's violent rhetoric there was absolutely a multi-decade cultural you know um milu of violent language and rhetoric spearheaded by briam Young And so whether or not he used the word danite is is U Mass is sort of masking the fact that if he wasn't responsible for the Mountain Meadows Massacre I think even Turley would agree he was responsible for using language that that encouraged and led to violence yeah for sure yeah I was just think the the oath of Vengeance in the temple at the time that the members covenanted to take Vengeance on the people who killed Joseph and then Mike as you were reading it it made me think of the I'm not going to get the name right the secret society right now in the Mormon church that checks people the strengthening the streng strengthening the church members committee yeah it made me think of that that that the church has people now watching out for people who I don't know are causing problems but yeah yeah hi yeah Nemo okay so I just wanted to this next one is just an overview of what was happening with Bennett okay um so he's disfellowshipped in 1842 in May and then in the same month there's sexual allegations which we've discussed and then he's resigned as mayor and then he's given his dis Fellowship notice and then he's excommunicated June of 1842 and then he abruptly leaves like two three days later and then Joseph publicly denounces bennon in July and then August 8th there's a record of him being expelled from the navu lodge and then one thing I thought is interesting on August 13th he began writing his expose and then not even a month later like or a month later his expose is finished that's almost as miraculous as The Book of Mormons yes John yeah it's almost like an angel gave him a record that he translated well I mean people will say that he's pulling out of he's pulling sources out of newspapers and things like that but you why is why isn't it the gift and power of God that that helped him write that book in in under a month actually I think Joseph took longer with his book right yeah yeah which is more miraculous John John C Bennett's biography or the Book of Mormon which is John C Bennett and John C Bennett got to survive on his own book for two years and Joseph I don't think he got to live off the Book of Mormon profets did John C Bennett have scribes to help him he didn't which I think we've just proven that John C BET's biography was more miraculous in the Book of Mormon I sent a community tab poll which one's more miraculous that's funny okay all right that's good to know okay so this is this is a quote from his from John C Bennett's book that I thought was fun if Joe Smith is not destined for the devil all I can say is that the duties of the devil have not been clearly understood Savage he writes very well he's well I shouldn't say well but like he he's very flamboyant or he's very I don't know he's not accurate I will say he's not accurate but he he does he's very humorous okay all right that's a good quote oh here's another one um Nemo do you want to read this one this is just another fun one from his book okay and now my fellow citizens permit me to appeal to you again and again on this most momentous subject and urge you in the name of all that you hold dear and sacred to spare no efforts to put down this hydrae headed monster of Mormonism before it swallows up all that is valuable to you in this life or in the next unite yourselves and stand not idly by suffering a few zealous individuals to fight single-handedly to battles of humanity and religion written by John de no that wasn't you was it joh that was John C Bennett and Julia what do you like about that well he's just his language is just really funny like he's calling it a hydra-headed monster and he's like we have to put it down and he's being very vocal like Joseph was right to worry about Bennett um I don't think I don't think he needed to go as far as he did and trying to stop Bennett but I mean let's so I just have to say that like we all have our Mormon conditioning where navoo was was was jelly beans and and unicorns and lollipops and rainbows but but I you know I I I've tried to make this point in some of my writings uh what's the difference between Warren Jeff's or David KES or Jim Jones right prior to Joseph Smith being assassinated in other words isn't it true that navoo could have had a similar fate as Jim Jones or David Kesh or Warren Jeffs if Joseph hadn't been assassinated because wasn't it at a minimum doesn't meet the criteria of a sex cult by any definition and then if you add the abuses of power uh and and and of the political corruption and the the military um exhibitionism like how how is 1844 navoo indistinguishable or distinguishable from the worst Cults that we know of other than it didn't end in the in the massacre of the members thanks weirdly to the assassination of Joseph it's almost like the assassination of Joseph Smith spared the death of many many Mormons do you guys think I'm I'm off there no I mean it the thing is like I always say I wish Joseph Smith had never been killed because I think the longer he lived the more obvious it would have been that he was making it up um on the other hand like you said you've got this militia building you've got all of these tensions and eventually yeah you're probably likely if they couldn't have pulled Joseph Smith out to where they could kind of kill him on his own you probably would have had some sort of a war or larger Skirmish because of the fact that the outsiders looking in are going this is not right and more and more info is coming out about what Joseph Smith is doing with polygamy and it would have ended probably a lot a lot worse had Joseph Smith not been killed my my cynical brain is throwing all sorts of things out there about you know what's the difference between a cult and a religion that well in a religion your first leader dies in their 30s you know you look at Christianity you look at Mormonism both had lead young leaders that died in their 30s right um but I think on a more sensible Point um it having Joseph Smith be martyred gives people something to Rally around and I think what Cults thrive on is a feeling of external oppression and having your leader killed in the way particular Jose Smith was killed is just going to solidify that oppression narrative and it's going to make people scared and what Colts thrive on is people in the community being scared and having a strong leader to tell them that they're going to fix everything and that's what Brigham Young was very good at Brigham Young was was very good at that and so he led them but arguably their their um Exodus across the Plains and the people that were subsequently brought to Utah I would argue a lot of Mormons died di because of that Journey more than maybe would have you know died had Joseph Smith survived I don't know but you know it it wasn't that Mormons stopped dying for the cause it's just they died out on the Prairies rather than in a swamp I guess yeah I mean that's that's why it's so interesting because what if what if Joseph Smith lives and all of a sudden in 1845 18 you know all more and more people find out about polygamy and the church kind of splits because of that you just don't know how it's going to go but yeah the church survives Mormonism survives in large part because Joseph Smith is killed because from a standpoint of as we've done in 50 episodes if you look at this stuff it's clearly not what it claims to be but when you have something to Rally around like Nemo said it it gives you that you know polygamy was something they rallied around it allows you to have this this identity to the church as opposed to to yourself and once you once you give your identity to something it's hard to get it back so yeah it it certainly gave it that that extra oomph and just a couple of real quick points that I think that's critical that idea of identity because as russem Nelson is now just continuing to undermine everything that made being a Mormon unique and individual I think we're actually that's not going to make the church easier to live and keep people I think it could actually have an inverse effect is that more and more people leave because they kind of just float out because there's nothing holding them there and the second thing about Nelson about the word Mormon that quote that you showed on there the Hy the Hydra headed monster of Mormonism that will definitely at some point I'm sure be shown as someone saying look the word Mormon was used to abuse Us in the early days of the church and this is why Mormonism is a horrible nickname we have to remember that Joseph Smith used the word Mormonism and Mormon himself too and espoused it and used it as a normal name for the church so this is not John C Bennett using it uh that part of the quote is not the bit where John C Bennett's being mean to the church that's just the common name for the church at the time I just want to make that clear because there's so much out there of people trying to say look early detract of the church use the word Mormon and Mormonism therefore isn't Russell M Nelson right to say we shouldn't use it anymore no cuz Joseph Smith himself was using it so that's yeah well he said it meant more good like he wasn't just using it he was claiming it and hinley reaffirmed that in the 90s anyway yeah not to get sidetracked I just I feel passionate about that point yeah yeah what's I guess I guess reflecting on this quote a tiny bit more on the one hand I think any of us would would feel like I If if a prophet was pressuring our 14-year-old girls to marry them under penalty of Eternal damnation of them and their families we would call that a a monster right yeah um that is that is mother daughter pairs sister pairs men being sent on missions so that Joseph could could U you know make advances to their wives like that all happened and and so it is it is it was a monstrous time if you care about um you know sexual predation it was that alone was a monstrous time I guess the problem with this quote is is that John C Bennett was involved in it he was participating in it and so he's he's a He's a hypocrite U because he was complicit right like he helped make this he created the monster yeah he was he was one of the Hydra Dr Frankenstein he was one of the Hydra heads yeah he one Hydra heads yeah oh yeah yeah yeah he was right next to Joseph his head was right next to Joseph's head yeah and his head got cut off and now he's sour about it right yeah so that's complicated okay great quote Julia okay so one of the biggest things um that came out of him leaving navu and writing this exp was is that he gave lectures he gave so many and um in dozens of places along the east coast and he was promoting this book and Joseph Smith one thing I thought was really interesting Joseph Smith predicted or prophesied however you want to see it that whoever involved themselves with Bennett and his book would lose money but on the contrary Bennett was a able to go two years without any other source of income from the money he earned by giving lectures and selling his book so he his occupation was being an ex Mormon I guess so are we saying it's it's a failed it's a failed prophecy by Joseph Smith basically if you want to call it a prophecy yes it was certainly a failure okay yeah all right that's good to know that's good to know yeah and then how Joseph reacted so Bennett's Bennett's giving all these along the east coast there was so many places the in his autobiog or excuse me in his bi graphy there's just chapters and chapters of this and then Joseph was seemed afraid to me it looks like he's afraid and so in late August of 1842 Joseph Smith called on many Elders in navu to go on missions to rebet Bennett's lies and disabused the public mind more than 300 Elders fan out from Nauvoo that's so like I think a normal Mission has does a normal Mission have 300 missionaries or 150 couple hundred probably 200 maybe so so it's like a mission it is a whole mission that he's doing anyway so he sends these Elders out and days that's a lot yeah and they were Laden with certificates to Reed the statements of Ben so they've got their own material the elders tried to encourage editors to insert these statements and affidavits into their newspapers few succeeded but many newspapers mentioned that these anti- Bennett certificates had been published in the Mormon press after one of Bennett's lectures of the morm after one Ben after one of Bennett's lectures the Mormon Elders stood up and began preaching and afterwards baptized 12 people thought that was a fun story like so what tell us Julia what so there so in one of the meetings and I can't remember if I reference this one but there was one so one of these meetings he's telling them he's exposing Jose's polygamy he's exposing the novo City Charter just everything else that he's talking about and then so missionaries are sent there and they stand up and they start yelling there there's just a lot of debates that are just they're just openly yelling at each other and then afterwards I guess 12 people got baptized so know it's a mission and there was a lot of them that um there was one of them they would turn off the lights and everyone to have to leave and then there was another one where they started they interrupted Bennett and they started speaking in tongues to try to get him to be quiet so like anyway I just thought I just think those stories are really interesting I can hear I can hear Mormon rhetoric Mormon church leader rhetoric saying well you know Bennett was making money off of you know tearing the church down but this is sort of like the the equivalent back then of True Crime like people had a fascination with Mormons because there were all these rumors of death and death Oaths and and polygamy and sexual predation and so why wouldn't they want somebody who is an Insider to come tell them what was going on there uh it it makes all the sense in the world that people and I'm glad I'm grateful for the whistleblowers that were willing to talk about what they saw um you know personally I I just had a thought that like we you often say history repeats itself right and and it's nice to see that the church hasn't deviated from a pattern of behavior since the 1840s where someone's out there criticizing the church and so they actively send people out to try and drown them out and to try and bury their message and to try and convince people otherwise I mean what what are what is fair Mormon if not the exact same thing they tried to do to John C Bennett what what is the pamphlet that um D Michael Quinn wrote to try and take down the if not exactly the same thing the church does this time and time again someone who was in the church discovers problems with the church tries to tell people about those problems and the church's Mo every single time is maybe not to send 300 missionaries but certainly send some people out there to try and talk down the problem and say it's not as big a deal as it is and they've but also to ex you forgot you forgot excommunicating the Whistleblower The Whistleblower also yeah even if they're telling the truth Mike what do you think no I think point is good I think you you're going to expect that the church is going to try to rebut these I mean ultimately the church is trying to to convert everyone in the world right so they're not going to want to have one guy going around to these lectures and being unchecked uh the flip side is what you don't hear at these lectures is uh these Mormon Elders getting up and saying uh yeah we're doing polygamy and yeah we're taking extra wives but it's totally cool they're just saying you know this guy's lying and so that's a difference like it's one thing to defend yourself and to defend yourself with facts it's another to defend yourself and leave out a lot of important details which you still see today um as Nemo said when you look at apologetic sites where all a sudden you radio you're like you're leaving out a lot of big details here that completely undermine your point um so yeah I expect the church to do that but I also I think you can't give them points because of the fact that they're not coming clean on what they are doing didn't didn't the church continue to deny the practice of polygamy until like 1855 or something like that yeah it was a long time after this was it like another 10 years before Brigham Young and the church admitted polygamy it was after they were in Utah too yeah they it was only once they were firmly settled in Utah and felt they were like beyond the reach of people that they're like well we can be open about this now so this this this was part of a a ruse and didn't we cover that Mike in one of the LDS discussions episodes about missionaries who literally Mormon missionaries who literally were polygamist themselves going to England converting people and denying that the church was practicing polygamy as polygamists right Paris right yeah Y famly and then these women are coming over they're coming over with nothing and they get off the boat or they get off whatever the train whatever I don't know what they came on by and then all of a sudden they have nothing and they find out oh no they are doing polygamy and I have to join yeah I mean I can't Julia we did an episode on that right on on with human trafficking yeah was Joseph Smith the human trafficker and I think we decided that criteria yeah from that I think it's to mention that actually once that became known and reporters were going to Utah and Reporting on what these women the conditions they were in and whatnot and and once that was reaching its way back to England the amount of Brits going over as converts instantly began to dry up like the moment people found that we were like no who would think that being finding out that when you go to Utah you're going to be handed off to a 75-year-old man as his uh teenageer young 20s bride would be unattractive offer didn't speak the language right you couldn't even speak the language you have no way out you have no way out like the the idea that it's not like you're driving from Salt Lake to Provo and you can be like I'll just go back home you have nothing you have no family you leave your family a lot of cases you leave your friends and um the predatorial behavior with in you know we've talked about that in those episodes and that is an area where I still can't talk without getting mad because it is so horrible what they were doing but yeah so yeah so so to come out here and say we're not doing it is just that's where I you know I'm like yeah of course the church has a right to defend itself but they're telling everyone that Bennett's lying was not lying about polygamy yeah yeah yeah all right that's good okay so this is more on the anti benett missionaries so regardless of whether these Mormon men who were sent to watch John C Ben were danites which I thought was interesting because the some of the sources say that there were 300 danites um so that that's the exact same number so it just connected in my head so whether they were danites or not they were sent none nonetheless newspaper articles reported that the Mormons would some would sometimes show up to these lectures and debate openly with Bennett I think I just told the story so I kind of just went over the story we don't have to read it it's just these these people are coming they're standing up and they're starting they're just interrupting him by speaking in tongues and they put out the lights and everyone is forced to leave so the Mormons are trying or the members of the church are trying really really hard to get Bennett to to be quiet so I mean that's that's intimidation right it's it's silencing it's it's a intimidation that's bad stuff let the guy tell his story don't interrupt him he he's entitled to his own story and it was true I mean a lot of what he saying was true I guess part of me yeah yeah my part of me was is like Joseph's protesting too much um like if it was all lies just let him say lies no one's it's there's going to be nothing to back it up but Bennett wasn't saying lies Bennett was being to some degree he was but it's specifically about polygamy and how Nao was was set up and things like that that those were honest the church acknowledges now those things yeah all right that's good okay so this is just something that I wanted to point out just to just to show the expanse of this all so before the publication of his Expose and after Bennett was giving lectures to the public exposing Joseph Smith and Mormonism he met with newspaper editors and had as many articles published as he could and then the following are newspapers that cover the stories of Bennett in his Expose and this is not all of them but these are the ones that were pull pulled out by his biographer there's just this huge running on list of everyone who was covering that like for our for our listeners there's at least 29 you know newspapers New York Times Chicago Democrat Buffalo commercial Illinois register Quincy wig Bostonian Salem Observer like I just want to give our listeners a sense for what they're not seeing on on the slide just a ton of newspapers okay go ahead yeah it's just remarkable how much Bennett how much he was being heard or spreading out this exposing Joseph I mean this this would make why they this would give Credence to the idea that they wanted to kill him because how much damage did he do to the church once he was allowed to live and to go on and talk about what he experienced yeah it had to have been incredibly damaging right yeah right which is why the church excommunicates uh whistleblowers right to try and discredit them and cut them off yeah yeah and I know we've talked about this multiple times before but just as a one of his pushes in his expose was to he wanted Joseph Smith convicted for the attempted murder of Lilburn bogs and he says that Bennett claims that Joseph sent or in Porter Rockwell to do the murder of course he was not murdered it was a failed attempt um but there he was shot he was shot he was shot yes he was injured um and there were reports and I think it w in Porto Rockwell may have even said it himself that he was in the neighborhood on the night of the attempt and so that was just a big push that for him to he wanted Joseph to be put away so yeah and it' be fair bogs had issued an Exterminating order against Mormons where he basically said it was okay what for missourians to kill Mormons is that right you're you're in Missouri Julia I apologize on behalf of my my state yeah that that is what happened yeah and it wasn't just until a couple decade or two ago that the Missouri yeah yeah yeah yeah okay that's good to it's good to know and again we talk about that that Hydra monster assassin ations or attempted assassinations I think that fits within the characterization of a monster right M yeah I think yeah yeah so there's this idea that um his biographer pulls out that that maybe Joseph and Bennett were kind of made a Reconciliation on December 8th of 1843 Bennett returned to navu went to Joseph Smith's General Store and paid Smith $3 for each of the 39 weeks he had boarded with the Smith family neither Smith nor Bennett ever made any public reference to this incident leaving us to wonder if Bennett attempted a reconciliation with Smith and this is from Andrew Smith his biographer I just thought that was really interesting that I thought it was worth putting in here is that we don't like maybe because he's like hey I stayed at the I think this was the navu or the mansion house like hey I stayed I'm trying to pay you back and this is in 1843 so it's a couple of years after he was excommunicated so maybe there was something in him where he was maybe tired of I don't know it's just he was just coming to flex on all the money he'd made by selling his book and doing damage to the church he's like I can afford to pay you and drops money maybe it's the opposite of of reconciliation maybe he was gloating yeah who knows maybe that's what I'd do gloat like here's all the money I owe you yeah okay so one thing so this is just this is his after um after his his lectures and things so in the spring of 1844 Bennett was reportedly once again in navoo among the Mormons the daily people's organ reported that Bennett had formed an acquaintance with a female Mormon by which he was led into lamentable mishap was expelled by them so I guess he's kicked out twice this was evidently a polite way of referring to Bennett's um adulterous Behavior so he still has the pattern of trying to take women that hasn't changed yeah why would he try and sneak this doesn't make any sense because if he is as you know scared of being assassinated by danites as he keeps making out then why is he keep going back into like into the den the Lion's Den right why does he keep going back there it makes no sense no yeah yeah he returned in 1843 and 44 right right maybe it was an old acquaintance maybe it was an attempt to to keep the boogeyman alive you know from from the perspective of Joseph Smith trying to control narrative about there's this John Bennett character and he's out there he's doing all his problems just as a way of reminding people that he still exists and that we're fighting because these Cults these groups whatever they all need an enemy right they need someone on the outside that they're fighting against um so the yeah it doesn't if he's running around the country trashing the Mormon Church in 30 newspapers yeah I I would think he'd be afraid to show up in navu yeah I know I think I think the newspap went to Salt Lake yeah I think the leur has the lectures had started dying off in 1843 so like maybe things had calm down I don't I don't know yeah it doesn't make sense that's weird that's a weird story yeah yeah okay so after the death of Joseph Andrew Smith his biographer points out that Bennett appears to have had no influence on the events that unfolded in the Carthage Jail during June of 1844 it didn't even occur to me that that would that that would be a question in people's minds um that Bennett could could have been involved in the murder when Bennett heard about the murder of Joseph Smith he reg he regretted that In the Heat of an an embittered Strife he had strayed into a severity of expression of which his cooler judgment did not approve so he's apologizing for being angry is what I'm reading Bennett maintained that at no time did he justify mob violence in D gring Smith or urge or urge circumventing Smith by fraud and and so far that seems to stand up he just wanted to yeah go ahead Julia finish your thought Julia and then Nemo well it seems like he wasn't it didn't seem like Bennett was trying to be violent towards Joseph it just seemed like he was just trying to give these lectures and sell his book I don't think he was involved in trying to send a mob towards Joseph can we have that slide about the Monstrous hyra again sure because I want to have a quick look at the wording of what he said there um he said I you in name of all the whole sacred spare no effort no efforts to put down put down this hydra-headed monster of Mormonism yeah before it swallows up all that is valuable to you in this life or in the next isn't put down a euphemism for murder kill he talks about um suffering a few zealous individuals to fight single-handedly to battles of humanity and religion like I'm not sure he can say oh no I didn't want anything bad to happen like he was yeah not have appealed directly to violence but he was very much urging people to do everything possible to stop Mormonism isn't the whole Fable of the Hydra about killing it right fighting it with the sword and killing it so it is a violent it's a violent metaphor to invoke and my immediate reaction was yeah just like Brigham Young didn't cause the Mountain Meadows Massacre but he certainly contributed to the rhetoric that led to the mountain medows Massacre and in the same way Bennett absolutely contributed to the information and then the hatred of of Joseph Smith that certainly contributed to his death right yeah that's a good catch Nemo that's yeah not specifically calling for violence but absolutely calling for violence I don't yeah yeah that's just it yeah yeah okay okay so then then I want to talk about the succession crisis because um Bennett plays a fair amount into the succession crisis so Bennett claimed so after Joseph Smith's death we don't there was no specific person who would be the I don't know if you guys have done an episode on that yet about who was the next chosen Prophet the succession crisis yeah have you we covered it a little in the Transfiguration of Brigham Young but we haven't done it like a real good in-depth look at it add it to the list yeah yeah okay so Bennett claimed that during his time in the first presidency Joseph Smith gave him a sealed envelope that appointed Sydney Rigden as the ne as the next Prophet with William Marks and Brigham Young as the counselors Brigham Young and others called a re called the Revelation a forgery and one newspaper claimed that the Revelation was written in Bennett's handwriting and I just wanted to point out that we don't have any revelations in Joseph Smith handwriting I'm pretty sure that's been that's known by historians that he was he always um dictated things and so that's just not something that we have ragon lost his leadership struggle and was excommunicated he started a new church called The Church of latterday saints okay so so yeah he's he's yeah I mean it it it would m Sydney Rigden claimed that he was the successor MH uh and Jose and and John C Bennett was Joseph's right-hand man at the time so I've got no problem thinking that that claim has Merit yeah like we don't we have we don't know yeah but I mean it's plausible it's plausible it's absolutely POS yeah because if if Brigham Young is staging a power grab he's gonna say things right yeah yeah okay that's good to know that's fascinating okay so later so there's another character James string he was um broke off from the Mormons Bennett later began write to write letters to James string who also claimed to have had a letter from Joseph appointing himself string as the rightful successor in his letters Bennett stated that he was ready to enroll under String's banner and requested the same position that he had under Joseph Smith in the first presidency Bennett became a strong supporter of string Bennett advised string to have Joseph and Ham's bodies exed and removed because it would quote have an Aston in effect on in congregating the people in VOR and where they were located at the time which I I'm pulling that one out because I just thought it was super interesting like I didn't realize but people I this last summer we went to Nauvoo and they have they told stories that the reason they didn't tell they didn't disclose where the bodies were buried is because even the members wanted to dig them up and take their body parts like hair or fingers or whatever to because they saw them as like luck charms and things like that so I just thought that was super interesting that even benett pulling that out and the church tries to tell us that magical thinking plays no part in the early church like come on people want Joseph's finger as a lucky rabbit's foot like this well and then you have the stories of and then you have the stories of Alvin Smith who they they were gonna exume his body because Joseph was told to take his body to go get the plates or to take him and he had died already so yeah there's just a lot of I just thought that was an interesting story so I think this sry gone Julia no no no you say I was going to say I think this shows Bennett's flare for the dramatic once again and just kind of like the stones on this guy to just wander up to Strang be like yeah give me the same position that I've caused loads of trouble by by having before like you know that church that I've almost single-handedly undermined and caused a succession crisis in um yeah give me the same job again please in your movement cool like pretty Shameless when you think about it yes he wrote in his expose that his whole objective in joining the Mormon church was to to expose it and now he's trying to join other offshoots of it which just either either he e yeah either he loves the Power he had and he wants to regain that power and that feeling of importance or he actually has some affinity for Mormonism it probably is just he just seems like a bad dude but yeah it just cracks me up how he contradicts himself by his actions quite a bit I you know I get it you know when somebody like for example becomes a part of Mormon stories podcast or becomes part of the Mormon stories interactions with the world that you know they really like the exposure they really like the notoriety and the fame and and just like uh in those instances that I've seen people like uh Oliver calry or Martin Harris or certainly the whiters what is what are they going to do in their lives after they leave the Mormon movement that's ever going to come anywhere close to the notoriety the Fame the significance of being attached to or associated with the movement and so it makes sense that John C Bennett once the interest in his uh stories about Mormonism dies down he's irrelevant again and so sometimes people will do anything that they have to to stay relevant and and so in that sense it makes sense to me yeah so you're saying John if your podcast becomes irrelevant all of a sudden you'll go join another religion leave it and then I'm going to I'm going to try and be a co-host of Nemo the Mormon I'm going to try and be a co-host for Nemo the Mormon podcast is what's going to happen we're not going to see Catholic stories anytime soon maybe maybe who knows if I feel too desperate uh and unneeded so I do think it's interesting that uh he is trying to join String's church and not Ren's Church even though he's the one that carried the letter to rden saying that he was the next Prophet so it's kind of confusing although I don't I don't think I don't think for Bennett it's about the legitimacy of the church so much as it is just about being like John said kind of at the top of a power structure like I don't think he's going oh well I'm going to go for Rigdon because rigdon's got the legit claim to be Joseph's successor he's kind of just like well who's actually going to let me in and then I'll go right right I think that's what what the concern was yeah yeah yeah okay so in oh Mike do you want to read this one yeah um in 1846 while in the Strang church and while Strang was away on business one of the members of The High Council Aaron Smith charged Bennett with teaching and striving to put into practice false Doctrine regarding polygamy and concubinage the High Council expelled Bennett from the church but Bennett ignored them and when Strang returned he said that the meeting held without him was not legitimate and that the testimonies against Bennett was a lot of hearsay trash eventually James string excommunicated Bennett from the church oh man this guy man this guy yeah so he's just he's repeating the same behavior and and having the same results as as in the Mormon church so yeah he's like a SD guy he's turned he's like guys I can get you lots more women and they've gone NOP we've seen this go wrong before off you go Bennett we're not having any of it well kudos Str I don't know kudos to string for not is for not uh succumbing I guess I don't know yeah yeah yeah well I don't know if his religion maintained not having pgy I kind of that's true somebody should look that up because I thought his I thought his group accepted polygamy later but I'm not sure maybe they called it sure oh yeah or maybe they called it the new and Everlasting Covenant maybe yeah and then got rid of it yeah okay so this is another part that plays into the homosexuality um during his time with the string at church Bennett made became close with a do Pierce B Fagan Bennett made every excuse to see him sometimes temporarily leaving his wife in another state due to financial reasons Bennett and Fagan later started an office together in Iowa Andrew F Smith said Bennett was clearly attracted to to Fagan and this attraction might well have been of a passionate nature at least on Bennett's part was that a legit picture of Fagan I think that's AI That's AI if I've ever seen AI That's AI yeah I'm not trying it to see people I was just having a reference yeah that is calm down Nemo I mean that's a goodl looking guy in a cat like that's what I'm saying that's good that's cool Julia all right sorry Julia you were saying something before I lowered the oh no it's just another reference of him being bisexual yeah so yeah okay it makes me it makes all the other ones kind of hold a little bit more weight that even his biographer is like yeah that and he had a lot of letters that he was sending to this doctor and he was really insistent on seeing him but anyway yeah okay all right okay so this one I thought was really funny so this is Brigham Young he's the next prophet he so he's the mouthpiece for God in 1850 baman claimed that Bennett had died a gruesome death and one of the Saints called it a fulfillment of one of Joseph Smith's prophecies despite the prophet's statement Bennett was alive and well and would live for another 15 years so either of briam young was lying or he was misinformed yeah I but you'd think that if you're talking to God that you wouldn't be I don't know yeah you would know think you would know by my own voice to the voice of my servants it is the same also they reference they reference the Joseph prophesy this with Ben would die a gruesome death I haven't seen that prophecy anywhere but that is really interesting if he did say that yeah yeah yeah okay all right okay so we're just wrapping up here so um earlier so um I titled this one catchup poultry and death earlier in the fall of 1843 Bennett joined the joined the Hite Church founded by x x Mormon George HL Bennett published his own recipes for ketchup and used it in pill form as medicine which obviously didn't do anything Bennett wrote Bennett wrote A P book and you can see that you can just go to archive.org and and check out his poetry book um in March of 1850 and crossbreed other chickens to create the Plymouth Rock foul which I thought was super interesting it's a very gorgeous chicken he also was the first to exhibit and publ publicized the Brahma chickens he also bred several game birds for fighting so that's interesting yeah he died he died in early August of 1865 and is buried next to his wife in the pulk city cemetery in Iowa his Tombstone is one of the largest in the cemetery and you can Google that it's just this huge massive Tombstone like I'm not sure why but I get the town loved him at the end when he totally disassociated from Mormonism he started like doing all these things and he brought the communities together and I think I think when he was trying to show off his chickens they they started they're like oh actually we love this idea he wanted to be the center of attention to show his chickens off but the whole city loved the idea that it's still a thing that runs on today that they created around these chickens so anyway I just thought that was interesting I I I think to be honest if he had mixed that ketchup with mayonnaise until it was a nice kind of like pink color and then put it in pill for then he would be a prophet then that that would have medicinal properties up the woo I would I would argue in that right neemo thumbs up or thumbs down fry sauce Nemo thumbs up or thumbs down thumbs up thumbs up weird it's so weird but yeah like all right Mike all right put your thumbs up Julia thumbs up or thumbs down on FR Mike says no why we have a dissenting voice let's excommunicate this guy get I'm not a huge Mayo fan I'm not a huge Mayo fan so you know that's you're all right you're you're you're ex we just excommunicated Mike Mike Mike's Mike's out of here he's no longer part of LDS discussions sorry Mike see you later you're gone no I'm just kidding Mike welcome back Mike we'll bring you back into F full Fellowship Mike if you repent will you repent I've never you know what I'm not a huge Mayo fan so I don't think I don't think I can he's just holding the line he's just he's not repenting he's not refusing to take the ketchup sacr every I'm now going to go on I've just scheduled a lecture tour against Mayo so prep the missionaries John so I think I had one I think I had one final quote I think I'm gonna start speaking in tongues as soon as you say anything Mike I'm gonna start speaking in Tong to sh okay so to most Mormon this is a quote from Andrew F Smith to most Mormons Benet activities in a his expose of Joseph Smith and his subsequent activities in VOR represent the deepest moral depravity it is no wonder Bennett is the man Mormons love to hate and what the only problem I have with that is modern day Mormons have never heard of the guy and that's how we started this episode literally none of us heard of John C Bennett until well into our 30s or 40s right except Nemo's not 30 yet yeah I'm not 30 yet but none of us were taught about John C Bennett in all our years of church education correct true yeah I about Porter Rockwell I knew more about Porter Rockwell than I absolutely the the Assassin but it's just because the church didn't want us to know about John C Bennett so they hid his existence from all of us right yeah yeah yeah yeah which which means something anything else you want to say about that Julia no I just I I really liked it but he's the biographer so he of course he the sources he's pulling from are um he is seeing clearly that Mormons hate him even though the lay members or whatever don't know anything about him so all right so hopefully this was informative to everyone what a great three-part series Julia Mike do you get do you give Julia the thumbs up for her John C Bennett series 100% yeah Nemo yeah thumbs up to Julia nice job Julia thanks that was very good now do any of you have episodes you've either prepared or want to prepare just to give people a preview of what might be coming Julie I know we've had you work on a couple possible things yeah so I have one that's almost ready it's the problematic Witnesses of the gold plates I know that Mike you're you have a mixed feelings about that because it's like we shouldn't even be doing this episode which is we're not GNA invite Mike Mike is just won't be invited to that episode a Debbie he's no it oh my goodness Buzz he's a buzz kill Mike's a buzz kill yeah the witness is well we we talked about it before the witnesses don't they matter of course and they're they're they're used as an evidence for the Book of Mormon so they matter but the same time like you have so much stuff to tell you that this isn't what it claims to be that people having an experience I mean at that point you could go to any Rel you're already poisoning the well Mike she hasn't even done the presentation you're already poisoning the well yeah let her let her let her present the case Mike let her present the case well I know it's important to some people there's people like I'm making Tik toks right now people are getting really mad they're like no they never denied and like yeah while it's not important it is important right it's important gr Palmer Grant Palmer thinks it was important and he's to be respected right it is because you to Julia's point I can't tell how many people have said I the witness has never denied their statement they saw it which means it was real so of course it's important I just feel like the people that are saying that typically haven't gotten into the details of all of the issues with the Book of Mormon um but yes it is important it is worth going over I didn't do it when I did the overview topics because at the time I didn't think it really was conclusive so it's like you know it's a Choose Your Own Adventure kind of topic so to me that's why I didn't do it it's not that it's not important it's just that it to me there's so many other things it's kind of we talked about in the last episode there's so many things that show it's not what it claims to be that the witnesses kind of fall into that well and I know Julia will cover a lot of the the things that I think you can look at right away to go this doesn't quite add up but um yeah no it's a good can ask do you think they were actual plates do you think they were actual plates or do you think I I agree with um Dan vogle and I know other people have said it that there had to have been some sort of prop set that they you know wrapped in cloth because there's too many accounts about that but I do not believe there were real plates with reformed Egyptian for sure you know I think I I think what we really what I'd love to get into as like maybe you could add this Julia sorry to give you more work but the church seems to have added a new witness out of nowhere the Mary Whitmer in the barn yeah you think that's out of nowhere well yeah like to me that's out of nowhere like I heing that story yes I I heard that one okay so i' I'd never heard that until I saw this article that the church chose to entitle that one night in the bar there's a moment she'll never forget or something like that yeah that was a really big oversight and then the ex Mormon World Went mental and then they changed it back to something did they change it I didn't know that it's like she was another witness of the gold plates is what it says the scmc is watching so hello um to you on whatever floor of church office building you work on I hope you're well oh my goodness so Mike are you wanting to develop any more episodes or you on retirement for a little bit uh well no we're definitely open to it I don't have anything like I uh you know haven't done anything on the website in like a year and a half so at some point I really want to put a PDF together of all the topics which I started and have not finished um but yeah we have a list of stuff that I think would be interesting I would love to do um you know we talked about the witnesses but Julie is doing that which I'm glad because um as you all know my feeling on the witnesses uh but there's definitely different elements that I think would be really fun to to go over that we haven't touched on or stuff that we kind of like we were talking about some other episode and something came up like oh that'd be a good thing to cover so there are we we have a list somewhere that we were working with yeah I think maven's made the list I think she's got a running she adds to it yeah all right well we'll weely on Julie until you're ready to step back up to the plate Mike yeah that's true yeah well Julia's doing a good job so I might just keep sitting back here I love you guys' takes you guys have really good like I don't know like having different perspectiv is is really helpful all right well you do great work Julie so thanks for this series and we're looking forward to the next one you yeah thanks everybody yeah and please subscribe to Nemo the Mormon podcast on YouTube please subscribe to Mormon stories uh on Facebook YouTube Instagram and uh Tik Tok and check out LDS discussion.citation analyzing Mormonism which is also you know I told you my dad who's 89 years old he loves your Tik Tok Channel what I didn't know that and he is a faithful Mormon oh man I'm kidding I'm not kidding my dad faithful Mormon 89 years old loves your Tik Tok Channel and put this into perspective Julia you know how lovely and Charming I am John Lin's dad like I'm I'm convinced doesn't like me cuz I've been on an episode with him and he did not have any time for me no he loves you my dad loves everyone and he's he's not your typical Mormon he is a very Progressive kind Jesus focused Mormon he's not a truth claims only true church kind of Mormon so yeah yeah yeah that's why I've never felt saying it's High Praise Julia it's High Praise okay that is High Praise all right C because you're so charming and it doesn't make sense it doesn't work on him apparently he just doesn't like he doesn't get your your humor's over his head Nemo it's just too sophisticated what's your I don't know if I can ask this can what's your dad's name John David David Jolin yeah okay well I'll have to give him a shout out or something all right I'll send it I'll send it to him he'll be thrilled okay all right Mike you're a legend thanks for joining us today you're the best thanks everybody Nemo thanks for everything you do and Julia you're also the best we're we're a good team let's keep this going yeah all right all right and thanks everyone for joining us today on uh Mormon Stories podcast LDS discussions Edition please comment please let us know what you like and don't like please uh tell us of all our historical inaccuracies the best place to do that is in the comments on YouTube we read every comment so if we need to do important Corrections we will uh but if you have ideas for topics if you have feedback or thoughts praise or criticism we'd love to hear it again on YouTube uh thanks to the donors that support Mormon stories in the Oba stories Foundation we pay these three amazing individuals and me from your donations so if you want to see this continue please do support us financially uh thanks for the support be good to each other be kind to each other and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon stories podcast and LDS discussions take care everybody
Episode Info
Guests: Mike (LDS Discussions), Nemo the Mormon, Julia (Analyzing Mormonism)
Related Article: LDS Discussions