Are the 3 Witnesses to the Book of Mormon Credible?

hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon stories podcast I am one of your hosts for today John dein it's April 3rd 2024 and today uh we are having another in our epic LDS discussion series we're going to be answering the question how credible were uh the three witnesses to the Book of Mormon this will be a two-part series specifically uh today we're going to cover the three witnesses to the Book of Mormon and their credibility and then the next episode will be the eight witnesses to the Book of Mormon and their credibility again this is all part of the LDS discussion series which if you haven't uh been following it uh it's a 51 52p part series that's sequential we started it about a year ago it was definitely voted probably the most important thing we did in 20123 it's changed tens of thousands of lives basically it's me and uh Mike and Nemo and now Julia doing our best to gather the best evidence around Mormon church truth claims and then to present them as thoughtfully and as uh neutrally and as balanced as we can so that then uh you can make an informed decision about uh your thoughts and feelings and conclusions around the Mormon Church's truth claims so we recommend that you watch these in order if you haven't seen the first 50 or 51 we recommend you stop this go back and start from the beginning and then um then you can uh get the most out of today and tomorrow's episode uh you can find the LDS discussion series on Spotify as is Standalone podcast on iTunes and even on YouTube we have a playlist at Mormon stories podcast where you can watch them in order this is of course all based on the amazing essays that uh Mike did at ldsd discussions. but now we're adding to it with Julia's work and others so without any further Ado we welcome back to the show um uh Julia neem and Mike all right Julia uh remind us who you are tell us about your Tik Tok Channel and your graduate work really quick yeah so I'm on Tik Tok Instagram and YouTube under analyzing Mormonism and there's a website analyzing Mormonism tocom and I am attending Missouri State go Bears and I'm getting my degree in history and you pulled together today's episode I did yeah thank you thank you for doing that you do great work uh Nemo tell us about uh how you're doing tell us about your channel and even if you want to about what's going on this weekend yeah cool um I run the Nemo the Mormon Channel where I look at the truth claims of leaders of the church particular particularly their statements how truthful they are um and you know kind of analyze the church in that way uh I do the Nemo Co conference halftime show which is coming back this weekend where me and my guests will be watching all nine and a half hours of conference just so that people don't have to if they don't want to because we will be providing session by session Recaps and commentary uh so that people know what's being said and they don't have to watch it themselves and I will be announcing a new project I'm working on which is sh secret um but that will be announced uh during the conference halftime shows and it will be something that the viewers can get involved with so that's very exciting and for those who don't know for the never Mormons General Conference twice a year the top leaders of the church are quote propit all the 12 12 Apostles and other leaders speak to the worldwide membership and it's pretty uh boring interesting sometimes fascinating so sometimes controversial so it's it's worth checking out Nemo's work anyway thanks Nemo Mike tell us quickly about you how you're doing give us a quick intro yeah so just uh put together the LDS discussions website with some other people and then kind of did the overview project um as something I did on my own within the website and doing good like I've been pretty disconnected from All Things Mormonism for the most part for the last six months or so and it's been kind of nice because you get burned out on all this stuff but this is definitely an interesting topic so I'm glad to be back for it all right um okay so Julia I we've got a bunch of slides so obviously those of you listening only we welcome you we're going to do our best to make sure you get the full benefit of this episode without seeing the visuals but we do want to remind people you may get the most out of this from from watching it we're going to be reading a lot of slides today but Julia let's let's turn it over to you and let's get going yeah sure should we start the slides yeah yeah alrighty so first first slide yeah so first I just want to give a little bit of a background for these so in the Book of Mormon they there are four different times where they where the Book of Mormon references these Witnesses we don't have to read all of them but it's ether 53 uh chapter 5 verses 3 through 4 then you have second Nephi chapter 11 verse3 and then second eepi 27 it's referenced twice in verses 12-4 yeah if it's okay for our never Mormons can we just give a tiny bit of background on what we're talking about oh yeah so um so the the Joseph Smith claimed to have had the the gold plates and then during the middle of his translation he he has Revelation or the book says the gold plates say that that there will be three Witnesses who will see these plates and so that's where so it was referenced these few these four times in the Book of Mormon and then and then we can go on with the with the rest of the history if that's and the general idea is that out of the mouth I I I remember this quote growing up out of the mouth of two or three Witnesses shall all things be established and then you know once these Witnesses allegedly handled the plates and saw them and saw God or Jesus or the Angels or whatever they did or didn't see then they they write this down and it's in the Book of Mormon a c one of the opening pages and then for like two centuries after when anyone challenges Joseph Smith's claims to have seen gold plates or to have translated the book or to have seen Divine Spirits or whatever the Mormon Church would say well there's the three Witnesses and the eight Witnesses so how you know touche you know um Checkmate how are you gonna argue with three Witnesses and eight Witnesses is that right is that that's a great that's a great summary okay so I just wanted to for our never Mormons I just wanted to level set on that okay so you're we're jumping to that first slide because the Book of Mormon I guess quote prophesies or predicts these Witnesses right okay keep going Julia yeah so I just wanted to point out that there is four times where that happens in The Book of Mormon and then again let's read a couple let's go and read a couple sure so in ether 53 through 4 this is the first time even though ether's uh later in the book he doesn't um the rest of those he writes last like he writes second e later so the first time he references is an ether and unto three shall shall they be shown by the power of God wherefore they shall know of assurity that these things are true and in the mouth of three Witnesses shall these things be established and the testimony of three and this work in the which shall be shown forth the power of God and also his word of which the father and the son and the holy ghost bear record and all this shall stand as a testimony against the world at the last day maybe should we read one more sure uh Nemo do you want to read one absolutely uh I'll read second Nephi 27:22 wherefore when thou Hast read The Words which I have commanded thee and obtained the witnesses which I have promised unto thee then shalt thou seal up the book of again and hide it up unto me that I may preserve The Words which thou Hast not read until I shall shall see fit in mine own wisdom to reveal all things unto the children of men and Julia Ju Just so I understand you know there's two options one is that ancient Native American prophets etch these words into the Golden Plates predicting that these three Witnesses would bear witness to the Book of Mormon that's option one and then option two is that Joseph Smith is writing this book and then he's thinking how am I going to make people believe that I'm actually looking at plates when I didn't allow anyone to actually see the plates in fact I've hid them I've either either the place didn't exist or I meticulously hid them from everyone how am I going to get people to believe it and so as he's finishing the Book of Mormon he comes up with this idea I'm gonna be showing them to three people and or or at least finding three people that I can convince to claim that they saw the plates so that then there'll be additional Witnesses in addition to me did I get that right and Mike and Nemo you can add I just want to make sure I and our viewers understand what's going on here I've got a third one okay Nemo um so because I think you started by saying that um the prophets put it in there as an instruction for Joseph the third option just so we can't be accused of creating false binaries is that they wrote this book Joseph read it and saw all these references to three Witnesses and was like huh that might be a good idea to then get you know he may have taken that as inspiration to then find himself three Witnesses for the plates whereas it's not like necessarily a direct command so that's the third option so no one can accuse you of creating a false binary Mike anything you want to add to that Mike no I think that there's a power to having people sign a statement to say that it's real because you know as Joseph Smith is doing you know however you want to say it writing translating The Book of Mormon uh you've got people around him who are fascinated by it you got people reporting on it in not the best ways um and so from Joseph Smith's perspective the best way to um try to get some credibility for the book of Mor is have other people sign a statement um so that people aren't saying well we're not just going to take your word for it and and I also think as you mentioned briefly at the start of this episode that's what the church does today it's like when you start to have doubts about the book of Mormon's authenticity you'll often here think about the witnesses they were you know they left the church and they still believe so I mean there are a lot of there's a lot of value in in having a signed statement from people Beyond yourself um trying to back up what you're claiming the book is okay Julie did you want to add something yeah I wanted to also note that that during this translation process we're not talking about the translation here but there were at least seven scribes including Martin Harris and Oliver cowry who were the two of the three they did not see the plates during this process Martin Harris talks about there being a screen between him and Joseph who had the plates um they also talk about how Joseph put his face in a hat and the plates were nowhere in the building or they were hidden under a cloth things like that so the the the scribes never saw the plates and so Jose of is needing or the Lord needs however you want to view it somebody to see these plates to have other people believe that these plates exist got it okay great um all right uh so let's we can see that there are four instances in real quick one yeah it's just going to mind that this is the only one of Joseph Smith's uh three translations that we ever got to see the that we have never been able to see the original of so you have the Kinder hook plates and you have the book of Abraham uh both of those we have The Originals of so the gold plates hold this special status within the works of Joseph Smith as the thing that no one was allowed to see that got taken away once he was done with them and so it's very significant that these individuals were included to see them and bear witness of them the source documents are not available yeah this is the only time that they're not available the other two times we have them got it yeah okay Julia next slide yeah so this is just me because I was curious about the timeline about when he so in my head Joseph this a 19th century book but you can see this just as an understanding even if you are a member of the church or an active believing member about when these come about these uh the in the text where they talk about the three Witnesses so the translation starts in early 1828 and then so I guess about a year later in April of 1829 Joseph Smith comes up with or or excuse me these scriptures talk about there being three Witnesses so I was just curious about when when that kind of happened so just I highlighted and read just those two books in the whole book of Mormon discuss the three Witnesses can I also add one little note here and we mention this mik before before you do so Julie I want to make sure I understand so early 1828 he begins the translation by that fall Martin Harris loses the 116 pages and Joseph has to go a season which is like I don't know two seasons without translating and then Joseph Smith starts in April of 1829 in Alma right right yeah so he starts again with Oliver in mind and then yeah you can see that in the so mosiah 3 is where they where they where all their picks up and then and then you've got Alma hel in third Nei and then ether he's like the the text says three three Witnesses and then you've got first Nephi second Nephi and then again there's the reference of the three Witnesses and then they go on to complete the book and then in June Joseph gets the copyright June 11th of 1829 and then in June we don't know what day they see them but that's just shortly around him getting the copyright the witnesses see the plates June of 1829 yes so yeah so he's had the plates for a year at least and and it's sort of like halfway through his writing of or the translation of the Book of Mormon does this idea of three Witnesses emerge right so I was just curious about that so okay Mike did you want to add a disclaimer or a thought no actually we're good I I want add it later actually I think okay okay all right so thanks Julia that timeline is is helpful um all right what's what's the next thing and we don't have to read all of these but um there Joseph Smith in addition in addition to what the Book of Mormon text says or the plates Joseph Smith received Revelations directly from God concerning the three Witnesses and so this happens in March of 1829 this is what's canonized now as a Doctrine Covenant section five and then again in April um DNC section six and then and then in June he gets those where they he gets the copyright the same month um Doctrine covenants 14 and Doctor cin 17 all talk about having these Witnesses let's read the first two Julia just to give people a sense godness sign readers Mike do you want to read the the DNC 5 yeah so DNC 5 says and and in addition to your testimony the testimony of my of three of my servants whom I shall call and ordain unto whom I will show these things and they shall go forth with my words that are given through ye through you yay they shall know of assurity that these things are true for from heaven will I declare it unto them I will give them power that they may behold and view these things as they are perfect okay and then and then um I'll read the June 1829 this is DNC 14 and this is directly to David Whitmer it says and it and it shall come to pass that if you shall ask the father in my name in faith believing you shall receive the Holy Ghost which giveth utterance that you may stand as a witness of the things which you have both seen both hear and see and also that you may declare repentance under this generation okay so this is Joseph Smith before the church is established before the Book of Mormon is actually published already receiving Revelations and telling some of these key Witnesses when and if and how they'll be likely to become Witnesses right right like months let's say six months is before it happens March from to from March to June is when oh okay right March April May June so like four months yeah three or four months okay okay perfect all right well okay so this is where I want to add my my note and I I know it's probably not a huge deal but it's interesting that he claims this Revelation in March of 1829 and then in April starts adding it into the Book of Mormon it's almost like he had the idea through the Revelation and then all of a sudden it works its way into the text which I just find interesting from a timeline perspective I think that's not worthy I I'm glad you said that and I want to plug that back in in a couple of slides or maybe even the next slide because that's interesting to me I hadn't thought about it that way around the time so going back to the timeline around the time he's writing this into the book of that's really important the time he's writing this into the Book of Mormon then he comes up with the revelations right yeah okay that's good that's good and I hope Mike didn't steal too much of Julius Thunder but repetition I hope not I actually didn't have that as a talking point but I think that's super important that's super important thanks Mike um okay next slide okay so in the Joseph Smith history let me see if this is the one we're okay yeah this is the one so I don't know what the date is on here I don't even know if it had it on Joseph Smith papers but at the I don't know if we want to read this whole thing I'll read it okay it says June 1839 at the top of the page okay so I wonder if he's retroactively 29 or 39 sorry 39 it is 39 okay okay all right so this is Joseph reflecting in the course of the work of translation we ascertained that three special Witnesses were to be provided by the Lord to whom he would grant that they should see the plates from which this work the Book of Mormon should be translated and that these Witnesses should bear record of the same as will be found recorded uh Book of Mormon first edition and then it goes on almost immediately after we had made this discovery it occurred to Oliver calry David Whitmer and the aforementioned Martin haris who had come to inquire after our progress in the work that they would have me inquire of the Lord to know if they might not obtain of him to be these three special Witnesses and finally they became so very solicitous and teased me so much that at length I complied and through the ER and Thum I obtained of the Lord for them the following Revelation that's interesting it's it's almost like does is that how it works if you bother Joseph Smith enough you get to become a witness that's interesting it makes me wonder because in The Ether I'm not sure if it's specifically talking about the three Witnesses or if it's sort of like it seems to have the same language as the as the New Testament where it's like oh from the mouth of two or three Witnesses shall my word be established that type of language and so I wonder if they heard that and they're like well maybe they started teasing Joseph and then I wonder if maybe he he uh then in March he comes up with these Revelations and then puts puts that in the text of the book Mormon in ether in second Nei that's just what I was thinking when Mike was talking sorry and it was 1829 sorry it was double checked June 1829 but still he's retro he's a reflecting on these things happening yeah I mean I think um man I I could have swore we had mentioned this in our episode on Revelation but there's there's a few points where Joseph Smith is either getting Revelations or things are happening around him that just happen to make into the book of Mormon around that time and it just shows how as I put it at the time it's very convenient and so in this case um it's just think of the the difference between Joseph Smith saying uh they kept bothering me and yeah of course I went and I prayed and got the answer versus 2024 where the church is like yeah I know all of you guys want to know who heavenly mother is or what our stance is on certain positions but we don't get answers like that it just shows how Joseph Smith got answers whenever he needed them to and leaders today have nothing and it's just interesting yeah yeah agreed that's good okay next slide okay so this is just me summarizing the the story of the Three Witnesses from the history of the church and I don't know if somebody can do a better job I don't know if we need to read it or if I can just summarize it yeah go ahead okay so we in in the history of the church we read about Joseph Smith going with Martin Harris David Whitmer and Oliver cryy and it says specifically into the woods to obtain the witness so after praying for some time Martin propose Martin proposes that he should withdraw because he thinks he's the problem he thinks due to sin or whatever he's he's causing this event not to happen we're praying to get a visitation from who from God and Jesus or from Moroni or who he Joseph's I think Joseph was clear that the angel Moroni would show up and he would show them the plates so they're all kneeling in the forest with Joseph Martin Oliver and David and the angel doesn't show up right Martin thinks he's the problem and he leaves keep going that's Martin goes and so the rest continue praying and then as they're praying the angel does appear and shows them the plates and then Joseph says that he after they all obtain their witness he goes and he finds Martin um praying and then he prays with Martin and then Martin is able to see the angel with the pl plates and he says it is enough it is enough like I've seen you know and he gives this sort of testimony so uh just that's just the the canonized history of the church you'll see it in their videos and in the obviously the history of the church so that's just the general story uh do you have commentary on that later Julia about like f Brody talks about that a little bit and there's a way to make sense of that from a secular perspective um I I don't want to steal Thunder do you talk about that later go ahead and say okay I tie it in differently though I'll ask Mike and Nemo if they have thoughts about that first and then I'll add it if they don't I I do have a thought it's not what you're gonna say necessarily John but I think it does smack a lot of Joseph Smith's days of treasure digging um the idea that the the necessary requirements for the thing to happen uh are shifting and and Ever Changing and it required him to isolate an individual in order for them to get the special witness and they were taken out as the problem and it's that person then didn't see what the others saw so it's not a collective group and it's kind of that divide and conquer giving people certain bits of information okay Mike did you have anything you want to add uh just two notes one is that when we talk about the history of the church that's written after the three Witnesses are run out of the church so it doesn't mean that Joseph Smith is making it all up it just means he's telling that story through his own perspective without having to worry about anyone else contradicting him we brought that up with uh previous episodes with the the Charles Anon visit where Joseph makes huge changes to the story and Martin Harris isn't there to say no that's not what happened so that's worth keeping in mind because now we're going to go back and kind of look at it you know at least the accounts we have from that time um and then as Nemo said this is very much like treasure digging you got to remember that there are early stories of uh the angel at the time it was called Nephi right and there are a lot of similarities between how Nephi is described versus how a guardian of a treasure would be described in those days and so this is a very magical worldview and so uh I think that might be where you're going John as far as how to explain some of this but yeah you got to keep that in mind that the people Joseph Smith is selecting are all involved in this world of treasure digging they believe that you can find treasure with with with rocks and that with a A Rod you can find water so you got to keep that in mind when you kind of think about Martin Harris and Oliver cowy and David Whitmer because they are all believers already they're primed for this and I know Julie's going to cover that later okay the one thing I was just gonna add one of the revelations that Grant Palmer gave to me academic Revelations not spiritual Revelations was this idea of spiritualized versus physicalized and I'm I'm sure Julie's going to talk about that later but it's this idea of did an actual Corp because in Mormonism angels and and God and Jesus are resurrected beings if they've died and then they're often reappearing and visitations are real you're not just caught up in a vision you're seeing actual physical beings Joseph Smith literally saw God and Jesus with his eyes and they were Corporal physical beings and already if why why would Martin Harris if if Angel Moroni appears presumably as a resurrected being why would Martin struggle to see him he's either physically there or not and if Joseph and Oliver and David can see him then Martin could see him whether or not Martin's having indigestion or a bad day so already this is begging this is making me wonder if if this is kind of the spiritual eyes idea and Fon Brody talks about this later sorry F Brody talks about this and no man knows my history that her theory is that maybe Joseph was able to whip people up into sort of concocting in their brain a vision sort of like can you see it now let me describe it to you can you see it now and then people would in their Mind's Eye See It versus an actual being appearing and seeing it with their physical eyes and this is already starting to make me wonder that it's probably not the physical appearance which is a problem well so I wanted to add too if I can just take a moment so another thing is that um my thoughts whenever you were talking I was like maybe maybe it's the angel can't be in the presence of sin or people who have are having bad thoughts maybe that's just like I don't know um and so maybe that's why Martin Harris had to leave but at the same time angels have appeared in scripture even in the Book of Mormon to people who did not have faith it appears to Elma the younger who was rebelling against the church he I think he was a full-on atheist I think that's kind of how the text reads or Saul on his road to Damascus yes yeah yeah so there's so many instances Where Angels appear physically without the person having faith so so Martin leaving would lead me to believe like you just said John is that this seems to be or I guess fond Brody this seems to be more of a Visionary experience rather than an actual person showing up and that comes up in in their affidavits later right right can we uh is this is this a good time to mention that we do have a very good account of how Joseph Smith might be able to work people through Visions or should we wait till later on that you talk about that Julia with Sydney rden yeah um I don't have any specific slides on it so you're wherever you feel good to plug it in go ahead yeah so this is just this is one of those things like we talk in different episodes about there's certain events within Mormonism that you can really grab to to kind of understand better how Joseph Smith is doing it or how some of these pieces fit together and so Joseph Smith and Sydney rigon are basically they're in the Kirtland Temple right it's um is it DNC 76 I think I could be wrong on that but anyways they're in here and basically this vision is Joseph Smith saying I see YZ do you see it and Sydney ran says I do I see it I see XYZ do you see it Joseph says I do see it and so um it's really interesting because Joseph Smith is um there's an account because kind of like what what you just said about how uh if if if an angel came and Martin Harris walks away he's like you know 50 yards away he's GNA look he say oh crap he just came I'm gonna go back over there no one else in in the temple sees what Joseph and Sig Sydney ran are seeing so they're watching the two of them talk to each other but they're not witnessing anything because nothing is actually happening um but what's interesting is in the account they talk about how Joseph Smith sits um this is Pho dible and he says Joseph sat firmly and calmly while Sydney rigon lay sat limp and pale and as limber as a rag so basically Joseph Smith is in control of this and he has no issue cdy rigon is really worked up he's sweating he's about to pass out he's pale and all this stuff and it just shows how Joseph Smith has this ability to get people to kind of see it and it's the same thing again going back to to treasure digging Joseph Smith has made a a living maybe not great but he's been able to get money out of people by convincing them that there's something there when when there clearly is not yeah that was his superpower in my opinion prior to 1830 because even the people that didn't see the treasure believed that Joseph Smith had power to find treasure even though he never found treasure so clearly he's able to convince people to believe things even when they don't see the things with their physical eyes that's clearly his talent and it's it's very likely what's going on here yeah okay all right great analysis everyone all right next slide um Julia okay so this one we'll talk about this more later but in another Revelation um June of 1829 this is DNC 17 um Joseph it says that this Revelation was given previous to them having a view of the plates and he goes through and he lists off different items that they that they will see he says you shall have a view of the plate and also the breastplate the sword of laan the uram and theum and the directors which he means uh the uh I guess it's a Leah hona because in the Book of Mormon the yman THB is called director so that's kind of confusing but then it says that and I highlighted in blue different parts where it says by your faith you'll see these things by that Faith after you have obtained faith it is because he had faith that Joseph Smith was able to see these things and then and then he also says and one of the things I think is really important um God is commanding them he says you shall testify of them of witnessing these things by the power of God and this you shall do that my servant Joseph Smith Jr may not be destroyed interesting what do you make of that Julia well so we'll look at it later there was other witnesses that said if anyone saw these plates not with God's commandment they God would destroy Joseph Smith and so so he gives so God is giving his okay here to say okay because I'm giving permission can view the plates and they're only going to view them so that they can testify and if they don't testify then Joseph's going to be destroyed and we'll see those again later so I thought that was interesting but also the parts where it talks about having faith again like angels have appeared in scripture references without people having faith also seeing a thing like or even doubting Thomas he sees Christ he didn't have to have faith because Christ is there and then like if a thing ex if a thing actually exists and you're going to show it to them nobody needs to have faith you just show it to them and so I just thought that was important to point out and Julie I'm reading this the way I would interpret it not hearing your context when it says and you shall testify of them by the power of God and this you shall do that my servant Joseph Smith Jr may not be destroyed I'm thinking that what God's saying is is that there'll be a lot of people inclined to not only not believe Joseph but to potentially be an antagonist to him or kill him except for the fact that now there'll be other people who can Witness to having seen the plates so the world won't want to kill Joseph that's how I'm reading it and that's absolutely a a good way to see it too I just just seeing in further context or seeing other sources made me think the other way but yeah I think that's totally that's a good way to read it as well okay yeah I I think what's interesting there is that that's the reading you could definitely take if you wanted to lean into sort of the persecution complex that readily comes to early church history this idea of you know you really want to amp up that idea that people are trying to kill Joseph over his ideas not necessarily over his actions but over his ideas over the things he believes um you know but it's it's also interesting to me that Joseph Smith uses the threat of God not only against others you know when he's trying to practice polygamy he threatens people's Eternal salvation at times right and their happiness and whatnot but he also uses threats that God would make against him so he's saying oh look God's going to destroy me if you guys don't you know get a witness of these plates God's going to destroy me if I don't practice polygamy and Angels come and told me I will be destroyed so it's an interesting psychological thing he does not to threaten others but to threaten himself and he's built this relationship with people where oh well we don't want him to get hurt so we'll do this for him because we follow Joseph it's just interesting he puts himself under threat as much as he puts others in the Mormons believe that the god that Joseph was talking to is actually Jesus Christ or Jehovah I'm so tired of Mormon Jesus wanting to destroy everybody wanting to destroy Joseph if the girls won't maram wanting to destroy Emma if she won't let Joseph have the plural wives like I'm so tired of Mormon Jesus so eager to destroy people if they don't do exactly what he says to be a bit glip I thought Mormon Jesus had like chilled out once he came to Earth and he'd you know he'd experienced what it was like to be mortal and I thought he'd kind of got it he realized it was all good because he was getting raging in the Old Testament and I thought he mellowed but he seems to have got raging again he's like one he's like two seconds away from destroying like pretty much everybody Morman he's destroying entire civilizations with earthquakes just because Jesus comes yeah that's annoying it's convenient right and and that's the thing so Joseph Smith like Nemo mentioned with polygamy it's just it's very convenient to say hey Lucy Walker if you don't marry and have sex with me it's it's not you're going to lose your salvation but I'm gonna get killed because of it do you really want your Prophet to be killed and with the witnesses it's just as powerful because these people are like I said earlier they're from that magical worldview they're sitting around they're seeing Joseph Smith do his thing they're full Believers this is not I don't believe this is a con I think they really believe it um so it's a really powerful uh kind of twist to make it about you being destroyed as opposed to saying if you guys don't proph if you guys don't testify to the world you'll be destroyed it's like no no you're putting it on me um and then my other note is this um can you put the slide back up real quick on this yeah so when when this came up when I was going through the slides earlier I thought this is weird because Y and Thum is in there and I know for sure hadn't created the idea of the irman Thum yet because it's too early and I look this up this is a a revelation that was recopied so this is not what was originally given we have no idea what was originally written because that is gone and the Joseph Smith's papers project says that John Whitmer copied this Revelation uh that was believed to be given in March of uh or copied this Revelation Circa March 1831 into Revelation book one but the page on which it was copied was removed at some point from that volume and is no longer EX which means we don't have the original Revelation for unknown reasons the printers of the book of Commandments chose not to include this Revelation text in that volume some language used in the version copied in Revelation book two does not fit in 1829 context such as the fact that they made up the urman Thum which we discussed in a previous episode that is completely retrofitted suggesting that the version was modified from the original there's no suggesting it's absolutely modified um although the degree of modification cannot be known that's true we don't know how much but what I'm saying is this Revelation is probably adding in a ton of stuff this is likely written at the earliest in 1834 possibly later so all of this stuff is being retrofitted back in so we have no idea what the actual actual Revelation is but this is definitely not it awesome um can I just ask John a real quick question before we we move on yeah yeah sure um just from a psychological perspective I've just had a thought right Joseph Smith if he's trying to get people to do what he wants he's got a toolbox of methods that he can use to try and I'm not going to use the word man but to try and get people to do what he wants right um one of them is to threaten people directly one of them is to threaten someone directly with this deity that he speaks for but I guess what I kind of was touching on earlier but it's just come more clear to me is that what he's doing by telling people he'll be destroyed if they don't do X or Y he's offering someone an opportunity to save him he's giving someone the opportunity to be the hero and that seems to me that will do things very differently to someone psychologically offering them the chance to be the hero rather than making them the victim of the scenario yeah who doesn't want to be a hero right exactly who doesn't want to save the prophet of God yeah that's good yeah just a thought thanks s all right good analysis all right let's go to the next slide yeah so I wanted to point out so this is the whole text of the testimony of the three Witnesses and I don't know again if I don't know if we should read the whole thing um yeah let's let's just go ah and read things when they're on the slide sure okay um Mike do okay go ahead Mike do you want to read this one yeah um be it known unto all nations kindreds tongues and people unto whom this work shall come that we through the grace of God the father and our Lord Jesus Christ have seen the plates which contain this record which is a record of the people of Nephi and also of the lamanites their Brethren and also of the people of Jared who came from the Tower of which hath been spoken and we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God for his voice voice hath declared unto us wherefore we know of assurity that the work is true and we testify that we have seen the Engravings which are upon the plates and they have been shown unto us by the power of God and not of man and we declare with words of soberness that an angel of God came down from heaven and he brought and laid before our eyes that we beheld and saw the plates and the Engravings thereon and we know that this is by the grace of God the father and our Lord Jesus Christ that we beh held and bear record that these things are true and it is marvelous in our eyes nevertheless the voice of God commanded us that we should bear record of it wherefore to be obedient unto the Commandments of God we bear testimony of these things and we know that if we are faithful in Christ we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men and be found spotless before the Judgment seat of Christ and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens and the honor be to the father and to the son and to the Holy Ghost which is one God Amen okay so they're seeing the angel Moroni presumptuously they're seeing the Golden Plates and they're seeing the Engravings on the plates that's what I got yes and that's why I highlighted those in red because which I think is interesting and Mike I'm glad you gave that background because I'm not familiar with that with the I'm glad you sent that um about that being dated later um because Joseph was saying in the other Revelation that they're going to see I don't know how many other items the sword of laben the liahona the yman theum but the witnesses when they sign the document they they say they only see the two things the gold plates with Engravings and the angel and I just thought that was really interesting to to pull out as well and also that it mentions uh honor the honor be to the father and to the son and to the Holy Ghost which is one God now what we know one of the major differences between the first and second edition of The Book of Mormon was that it changed uh Joseph Smith's nominally sort of trinitarian view of deity to a a more Mormon view as we would know it now of three separate personages but this hasn't been changed and so I think this points to this is a remnant of that earlier view of the people in the church at the time that um they were viewing a more trinitarian I some people will argue when I use the word trinitarian there is a proper word for exactly what it was I just can't remember it I think it's modal modalism modalism for we know if the church changed this written testimony afterwards or did they leave it the same I just looked at them yesterday to see because they did change the eight Witnesses statement but they only changed a couple words in the three Witnesses statement and those ones are the same okay got got they're the same in this 1972 Edition they change like which to who or something like that they only change like their minor changes okay so any other summaries we're supposed to get from this slide Julia no I just wanted to point out that they're they're Joseph is saying that they're seeing different things and I just think that's interesting okay got it and that's the you know that's the statement that the witness has made which is good for our audience to know all right let's talk about the statements okay so just these are just some facts about the statements so in both of the witnesses statements the three and the eight there is no date given or time of day or location for the event each of the witnesses signed an already written statement and then this is just something that's just interesting originally as you can see the witnesses statements are published at the end of the book originally whereas today they're published at the very beginning of the book so that so that they're the first thing people see but back I don't know why Joseph did did it that way but I'm it's smarter to move it to the front but okay think that's interesting okay and then another note is with the exception of Martin Harris all of the Witnesses were related to the Whitmer or the Smiths so Oliver cowry was married to Elizabeth Anne Whitmer and then you have David Whitmer Christian Whitmer Jacob Whitmer Peter Whitmer John Whitmer hyon Paige who was married to Katherine Whitmer and then you have Joseph Smith Senor hyam Smith and Samuel Smith wow so it seems like it's basically two F families the Smith family and the Whitmer family and then Martin right yeah and and then Martin we'll talk about later what his motives might have been but I mean I guess that it's a foreshadowing of of credibility if it's just like a family thing right right family job yeah okay um all right should we go to the next slide sure okay so this is something that I find really interesting so all of the signatures if you look at the witness statements themselves on the Joseph Smith papers all of them are in all over cry's handwriting so while one could argue that the original Three and eight Witnesses signed what was on the original manuscript for the Book of Mormon and not what was in the printers manuscript which is what the pictures are here there is little evidence that such a document ever existed the church says that quote of the nearly 500 pages placed in the navu house Cornerstone portions of 232 Pages survive the church now possesses most of the those fragments and leaves others are in private hands their owners graciously allowed those pieces to be photographed and included in this volume that's taken from the the church does here I'll just hold it up for a second the church if you can so the church has these published this is a huge they're huge manuscripts what's it called it's the original manuscript for the Book of Mormon it's volume Five papers yeah Joseph Smith papers yeah yeah so if you'll go back to the slide for a second okay okay so that's where that quote com is coming from so for me I purchased this this whole book to see what the church said about the witnesses statements and there is no indication whatsoever that any original and personally signed witness statement ever existed and but I also want to say regardless having individuals sign a collective statement written by someone else is not as credible as as having them make their own personal witness statements so best case scenario they signed a document that someone else had already prepared for them which we know is a typical Joseph Smith tactic from right it's a it's a thing he does or worst case scenario they never signed it at all and all the signatures in the same person's handwriting as well as the document itself right and so like I'm kind of confused to just because the uh the uh copyright for the Book of Mormon like we have all these documents that are perfectly preserved um yes there was a lot damaged when they were in the Cornerstone but the church even in this volume they never give any kind of clue about the whereabouts they're just like oh yeah this this thing happened like they signed this statement but they never say anything about their original the original statement so I don't I have no idea if that has ever existed and that document was as well as the testimony itself was designed to increase the credibility of the Book of Mormon right was designed to shelter Joseph so that if people accused him of making it uping black well hang on these other people saw it like John said at the beginning um but if I brought you a signed statement saying look these people these people have signed a statement say look and you went well none of them have physically signed it at all then how would that what would that do for you in terms of actually bolstering credibility of any kind yeah it doesn't yeah and then also with legal do so you'll see a lot of this with we talked about John C Bennett and in his book he talks about how he has or well he doesn't talk about it this way but there's a there's a witness for the there's like a judge and then they'll say what time of day and they signed sworn affidavit like in this person's presence like that's how they they legally do it which which alliv Cadre is a lawyer so I don't know why Joseph didn't do it that way but in this one they're just signing their names to something with no date with it's very vague like it's it's just and there's there not their own personal signatures there's no there's no other witnesses to them signing that Mike what what is there anything you want to add to this Mike no I mean I I just I remember reading this when I first read the Cs letter way back when and I remember reading the fair response they basically say well if you think that's a big deal it's just because you don't understand that the printers manuscript was lost and apparently we think that it was originally signed by them and it's kind of like one of those games where it's like well we can't know so we're just going to assume everything's fine um there are respon is that none of the 11 call out Joseph Smith for signing for them so they're saying it's not like they disagreed with it so this is one of those areas where you could kind of take your own path as to how you want to frame it because we don't have it so we we just don't know right yeah yeah on the one hand it seems sketchy that that it's all one person's handwriting on the other hand they apparently never denied it so what does matter I I uh okay uh all right what does Fon Brody have to say about this Julia okay so in her book no man knows my history Fon Brody pointed out that according quote according to the local press of the time the three Witnesses all told different versions of their experience a fact that makes it all more likely that the men were not conspirators but victims of Joseph's unconscious but positive Talent of hypnosis those yeah and I do highly recommend no man knows my history for those who want someone who had really direct access uh to to the source documents uh and Nemo's showing it to you now uh it's I think it's the best biography ever written on Jose Smith that's my opinion it's excellent yeah yeah okay I was just looking to see if I could find like the family proclamation to the world or um Jesus the Christ I know Jesus the Christ was signed and dated yeah declarations the official declaration yeah assigned and dated so so it's not that the church doesn't do this yeah I guess it's just worth adding is that like for documents less important than someone's testimony of seeing something that got taken back to heaven so no one else could ever see it again things less important than that get signed and dated so why wouldn't you sign and date I mean it is now thinking about it now it is kind of sketchy why not just write the names in a list why write them as if they're signatures if they're not signatures right well I guess so this is the printers manuscript so it's all the whole thing is written in Mar or in Oliver how's handwriting so like I don't want to say that he's like forging their signatures I just why they're not written like in a sentence Oh yeah that's true they're written you know as if someone's signing them below each signature another signature appears that's just a little weird all right we beat the dead horse yeah yeah I just wanted to point that out okay okay so yeah so I just wanted to point these out as well so according to a presentation given by Richard Lloyd Anderson during a fair conference in in 2004 he gave some numbers for the Book of Mormon Witnesses where quote where they said something about the Book of Mormon and he says and I don't know the numbers so that's why I'm pulling from him because I anyway so he says Martin Harris was interviewed 50 times and Oliver cowry was interviewed 30 times throughout their lives and then David Whitmer was interviewed a minimum of 70 times and so while I don't quite follow his math Richard Lloyd Anderson says he says quote so I've I've got about 200 times when one of the witnesses said I did sign the statement quote the statement means what says I saw the angelot I saw the plates or in the case of the eight Witnesses quote I handled the plates so 200 very positive and specific statements in many cases and I'm dealing today this is during his presentation with about eight or 10 documents in other words 5% and the question is do you believe the 95% or do or do you believe the 5 per. I'm sorry the word about is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence about 200 it's 150 right I don't know if I understood the what's your answer and then I want to hear other people's answer why isn't that a Checkmate 95% versus 5% Julius well if you if you skip to the other slide I put I put my response up on the slide here we go so I say while he is correct that eight or 10 documents give a different answer as to whether the witnesses saw the angel in the plates the question in my mind of these documents is not whether to believe the 5% over the 95% the question is does the 5% change our understanding of the 95% okay okay tell us what you mean by that so like later we'll see these this 5% or these 10 or 11 documents they say that they only saw the plates in a vision and even one time David wmer says of course it was in a vision that's how you see spiritual things and like if you frame it all with that mindset like this is how Joseph Smith like you're talking about with Mike with um Sydney Rigden this is how Joseph um has views Revelations this is how he walks other people through Revelations is through Visions um or through yeah and so like that's just how anyway so so seeing the five kind of helps you reframe the 95% is what I mean um okay uh Mike and Mike do you have a response uh to Anderson at all no I you know I think we did an episode on apologetics and this is kind of that thing where I mean I don't want to say it's I know they love to use the term Gish Gallop which is where you throw a bunch of stuff together doesn't all quite work but because you're giving a lot it really makes it seem like a stronger argument and I think what he's doing is he's trying to deflect by saying it's just a few it's just a few statements we don't have to worry about it it'll be like saying the book of morm what 270,000 words so it doesn't matter that they change 50 words that change the our complete meaning of God because the other 27295 are the same it it doesn't matter because what Julia said is true what the differences are is how we can better understand and kind of recreate what might what might have happened and so it really is more of a deflection than it is anything else yeah what he's trying to do is create a false binary by saying that we have to put the is 95% against the 5% because they're at odds with each other they're fighting each other which is not the case at all you would look at all the source documents available and you look at what they say in their entirety together about the circumstances you'll say okay what we can actually tell from that is on 95% of occasions they didn't go into the level of detail where they would state that it was a spiritual vision or Etc but on 5% of occasions they do have to give that further detail they don't contradict one another it's just that they weren't as detailed in 95% of cases I mean honestly if this were a murder trial and the the person accused of murder 95 times said he didn't do the murder but then five times he said he did do the murder would we just go with the 95 over the five well exactly or in 95% of interviews he said I was at home doing x y and Zed but in 5% of them he said I was at home doing x y and Zed and then adds an extra detail that actually indicts him that extra detail it does it does right I also wanted to just add something really quickly um it mentions in the the in the statement of the witnesses um and they have been shown unto us by the power of God and not of man to me that's important language because if they're physical beings and their physical plates and they're just being shown why does there need to be the power of God God involved it's just their physical being showing up and you're touching the plates and you're seeing the angel and so to me that's code word for Spiritual eyes seeing the vision in your mind but not actually seeing something physical so it's kind of like they want it both ways they want to be able to give a disclaimer that um you know it was you know a vision or by the power of God but then they will also want to make it sound like it's super physical and super real the only other point that I wanted to make is why are they being interviewed 150 times why are people asking them over and over and over and over and over and over again to me that suggests that there's so much uncertainty or ambiguity the journalists continue to try and figure out wait did you see them physically did you touch them physically or was it the was it you're spiritualized and in a vision because to the world there's a huge difference between seeing something in a vision and seeing something with your physical eyes and touching them with your physical hands and the fact that they were interviewed 150 times or whatever suggests that that people remained unsure until their deaths maybe I also wanted to point out that during this time so the copyright page the title page of the Book of Mormon was at the very end and he doesn't get that that's part of the copyright uh until June so anyway during this whole process of getting the witnesses Joseph is still translating the plates so so this is so Joseph has the physical plates that he got from the hill Cur and then he goes off in the woods with these three men the angel appears with that same set of plates that the angel I guess had to whisk out of his house or the whitmer's house or wherever they are and so I so I just wanted to point that out that that Joseph is still translating at this time he had the physical plates the plates were taken by the Angel and the angel is appearing in the woods to show them these plates um which has caused some other theories to come up about there being two sets of plates and things like that with the eight Witnesses and we'll get into that next through part two as well but like I just wanted to point that out just okay an interesting thing okay so Julia one thing I asked you to add this morning was just to to kind of profile these three men Martin Harris uh Oliver calry and David Whitmer just like what was their character what was their reputation because on obviously if somebody has a reputation of being honest upstanding of high intellect of moral character that's different than if somebody is sort of known as of of charlatan or SLE bag or a scumbag or is dumb or is like um prone to goofy Supernatural thinking because not everybody in the in the 1820s had the Magic World viiew many did but many didn't and in the episodes with Mike we even showed like Benjamin Franklin making fun of treasure digging you know back in the 1700s and you know and it was clearly illegal to do treasure digging so it's not you know sometimes the church wants it to sound like everybody in the 1820s believed in Supernatural weird pirate folkal or buried treasure stuff and that everybody had the magic worldview but lots of people didn't so I wanted you to sort of let us know about the three Witnesses and what you were able to find about them so let's start with Martin Harris so this there's a lot on Martin Harris because he's to me he's the most problematic and I made take talks about this as well but I'll try to sum it up as best I can so before joining the Mormon Church Martin Harris was a Quaker a Universalist a restorationist a Methodist and belonged to palmyra's Zion Episcopal Church that's getting to the point that he was a Seeker or he was like flaky and he never met a church or a prophet that he didn't like is that the point you're making there right like he was baptized into five different churches and things like that like he's he's looking for something and we'll talk about what he joined after Mormonism too okay all right go ahead and in 1831 the Jamestown Journal this is online published that Martin Harris has had seen Jesus Christ and that Jesus was the handsomest man he had ever seen and that he also saw the devil and that he was a quote a very sleek-haired fellow with four feet and a head like a jackass unquote and in 1840 Martin claimed Martin says that the devil was a jackass and had back hair yeah like a like I guess the head of a donkey with Sleek hair all right right all right and then in 1840 Martin claimed to have walked and talked with Jesus Christ for an hour while Jesus was in the form of a deer and this is also published in the newspaper okay and then according to GW Stoddard Martin Harris was fretful peevish and quarrelsome and he's a resident where he lives I'm soldered and that and that Martin Harris would frequently abuse his wife and according to Martin's wife Lucy Martin had a very quick temper and he had frequent angry fits and would often abuse her he would use a bull whip and she says quote in one of his fits he in of Rage he struck me with the butt end of a whip my flesh was black and blue in many places unquote and then according to Lucy Martin Harris was also cheating on her with the neighbor he would go and spend all night there while her husband was gone according to Martin Harris's sister-in-law Abigail Martin had got into the gold Bible business to make money he she's he's quoted as saying or she remembers him saying quote what if it is a lie if you would let me alone I would make money out of it and then Martin funded most of the Book of Mormon publication and thought that he would get greater Returns on its sale he thought the plates would also be displayed and that the people would be charged 25 cents to view them which is the equivalent today of $843 and he was disappointed that the angel set the sale price for the Book of Mormon at $1.75 which actually today with the inflation is $59 and then the angel reduced the price to a125 which is today $42 roughly and Martin also prophesied many false things like there would be no president after so many um I can't remember who last one was and then and then after so many years everyone would convert to Mormonism which those things didn't happen in the 1840s when he said that they would happen and then he was corrected on many occasions for teaching false Doctrine by Joseph corrected him because he was teaching false Doctrine and my my biggest question is if Martin Harris saw Jesus and the devil why did we need Joseph Smith why wasn't Martin the prophet of the restoration but but Mike and Nemo any reactions to to that I've got to be careful what I say here because Martin's clearly a fellow member of the lazy eye Brigade so I want to um according to that portrait I want to be careful um I I think it the the difficult thing with this I'm just I'll be quick but the difficult thing with this is if you are willing to believe spectacular things from a religious perspective then there is no reason why the things that we kind of laugh at a little bit here or that we kind of cringe out a little bit here about Martin Harris couldn't also be true and that that the thing that we we have to remember here is if you're willing to believe those sorts of things then this isn't necessarily going to put Martin Harris forward as someone that isn't trustworthy as a witness um and then as for the behavior towards his wife Etc well you know the argument will be made that profits aren't perfect etc etc because excuses can be made for bad behavior when you have vested interest in someone being a positive figure in in your religious movement okay that's that's the point I put across Mike anything you want to add I just point out that this is exactly what we're talking about when we say that Joseph Smith is picking people specifically because they are primed and ready to believe that they're seeing what Joseph Smith is probably telling them and when you look at what Martin Harris also claimed to see which we all know didn't happen we all know Jo I mean I'm assuming we're all agreeing that that you know God doesn't appear as a deer um but the the thing is like this is what Joseph Smith is doing as far as he's picking witnesses that I think he knows it's kind of like with polygamy it's like he's choosing women that I think he is pretty sure going to accept and I think this is just showing how Joseph Smith um in that time was very charismatic and knew how to choose people that would kind of get his ends you know taken care of you say he wouldn't appear as a deer but I have two words for you Mike White salamander uh and we know that when that letter was believed to be real down L jokes trying to defend the white salamander so you know it's not again it's not beyond the Realms of possibility it's not beyond the Realms of this is the thing that I always laugh at because I always I've said so many times in these episodes like look at this stuff the same way you would someone else's religion or a politician if you looked at what Martin Harris believed in leading up to the Book of Mormon and you went to uh like a ward meeting and you didn't say it was Martin Harris and you kind of you know changed some of the details every person would be like that guy's a nut job and it's like yeah 20 year witness and they be like oh no no not that guy he's cool and that really is ultimately that's Point yeah that's the point you're making and yeah people can make their own decisions we're just letting you know the background and you can make your own choice yeah yeah yeah okay well uh what about oliv calry Julia um yeah so Nemo do you want to read this one yeah he looks like a fine upstanding fellow uh Oliver CI was a clerk teacher Justice of the Peace a lawyer and a newspaper editor he was raised as a congregationalist he lived in py Vermont which is also where Ethan Smith lived or a view of the Hebrews in an 1829 Revelation that was later edited it said that Oliver had the gift of working with the Sprout or in other words a divining Rod what is it so tell our listeners and viewers what that means so a divining Rod is I don't know if somebody has a better um so to my knowledge it's sometimes it's a met it's a metal thing sometimes it's wood um and sometimes they'll look different it'll be sometimes it's a forked or a y-shaped piece of wood and the person will hold the two ends and and they'll I guess manifest where like a thing like where can I find this thing or or things like that um or it can be the shape of an l and they'll hold the smaller ends and when the when the um rods cross that means the answer is either yes or no and then and if it moves away yeah there you go it's often used to find water I believe right water witching I've got a picture of someone car you know drawing all over calary with sort of a you know dividing Rod right yeah right and so I just wanted to point out that this so not Martin Harris obviously can see visions and things like that but it wasn't just him who had the magic worldview like we're pointing out is the sood did all over cowry and also one thing that I'm I've always been confused about this is kind of off topic but Joseph Smith says that he could translate using the divining rod and I don't I don't know how you translate with that but that's neither here nor there with this but anyway just pointing out that he also has a magic worldview well I suppose it's the belief that holding a magical Implement of some kind whether it be a sea stone or a divining Rod helps you channel the Divine in order to enact the I guess because like the searstone they say the words appeared on it and I anyway and didn't they change how the doctrine in covenants describes cry's Rod what what was it changed it twice yeah what was it before what was it so it was the gift of the Sprout and then the gift of the rod and then the gift of Aaron so they ped it they upgraded it to make it conversions of the Doctrine and Covenants right yeah yeah because you know again I I don't want beat a dead horse but when you hear apologists especially or the church talk about alare cry they talk about him being like this really intellectual respected person I think he was the dude thought he could walk with a piece of wood and find water in the ground by having it Twitch in his arms that is today if you went to a ward it said uh yeah there's this guy he walks around with a piece of wood he thinks he could find water in the ground they'd be like that guy's a nut job this is what I'm trying to say like I don't I'm not trying to defame these people I'm just saying this is common at the time and even people that may been respectable in other ways are kind of uh believing in things that are crazy and um aliver cryy when he goes to Joseph is claiming after he hears about the plates he claims to be having dreams about the plates um they talk about how he's obsessed with with the translation process so it's not like Oliver kri is like this lawyer is like oh sure I'll I'll I'll be your scribe this guy was obsessed he was Allin and believed in all this magical stuff and and people like to strip that away but you can't if it's okay I'm going to share just one more thing because I know we're going to get people mentioning this um I there's there's an article about um it's called water dowsing and this is by USGS which is some official on that website right now yeah what is water dousing and it says water dousing refers in general to the practice of using a fork stick Rod pendulum or similar device to locate underground water minerals or other hidden or lost substances and has been a subject of discussion and controversy for hundreds if not thousands of years and you can see a photo of a dude kind of like Oliver calry um you know uh allegedly using one of these and I'm just gonna read what it says at the bottom what does science say about dowsing case historians and demonstrations of Dowsers may seem convincing but when dowsing is exposed to Scientific examination it prevents it presents a very different picture the natural explanation of successful water dowsing is that in many many areas of underground water is so prevalent close to the land surfice that it would be hard to drill a well and not find water in a region of adequate rainfall and favorable geology it is difficult not to drill and find water um you know some water exists under the Earth's surface almost everywhere this explains why many water Dowsers appear to be successful um to locate groundwater accurately however as to depth quantity and quality several techniques must be used and then it goes on to talk about that so I know we're going to get people talking about that and that that still it's a practice that some I guess farmers and people use today I'll even say from my own personal experience before leaving the church I was sort of a uh Geo geographical apologist for the church and even today a lot of members I guess because of alliver C or because of this magic world view that many members still have or just have in general because of the religion many members still use dividing rods today like I like I've been with a group of people who they Ed the dividing rods to find ancient nephite temples in navoo and places like that and even in Ohio like they'll they'll take them and I've seen them do that to try to figure out where these ancient inhabitants or or whatever are so I just so it's it's there are still members that still use that but just to be fair to Oliver calry you know um of all the sort of magical worldview and all that stuff that was believed at that time divining rods is like pretty tame by comparison to a lot of what was believed uh at that time and like I said like John said and I was going to kind of point out I watched a show when I was a kid where they were like kind of busting the myth of divining rods like it's still a it's more mainstream than a lot of what was going on I would say yeah to be fair in and to the the article's point I mean it talks about how if you dig somewhere you're going to find water likely so it's not like you know of course they're like I told told you guys my rods better and yours I found a bigger puddle than you but at the same time today we know it's nonsense and so I guess that's why I'm just saying like this is when you talk about Oliver cowry yes he was you know I think he was the most respected certainly more than Martin Harris but there are a lot of things that allowed him to be primed for this this um testimony and to be a part of this and um I will note and this might not be is relevant to this part but we do know that Oliver cry was willing to make stuff up and to go along with lies um in order to benefit himself and the church uh which we talked about in the priesthood restoration episode so while he may not have been willing to do that in 1829 we don't know but he was willing to do it throughout his time in the church yeah okay that's Oliver calry and now let's look at David Whitmer uh Mike do you want to read about David um David Whitmer was born in Pennsylvania but his family was born in Germany uh before converting to Mormonism the Whitmer family belonged to the German Reformed Church of David Whitmer believed in sear stones and had at least two of them himself yeah t of Penny those SE Stones yeah and you can see his sear Stones you can look just Google them you can see both of them um I don't know a lot about David Whitmer um but all the again the the Whitmer family had this perspective like even hon page one of the eight Witnesses he also had a sear Stone they they could see things uh yeah much like Joseph Smith's sear Stone so so they were involved in the Treasure digging folk magic searstone business before Joseph produced The Book of r or started the church yeah I think that's really important to mention that they had their own C of stones because that's where one of the apologists sort of takes will be right we have the urum and th and that's special and that's different but even the church admitted for convenience Joseph would use the single Stone and that single stone is so common that you know Whitmer had two of them other members of his family had them I was being GLI but they're fairly common because you just find a stone that seems to speak to you in some way when you're digg in a well or whatever and that becomes your sear Stone right well and then Joseph had I think five in his life he had five different ones and this this always begs the question for me um just just because I think it's important like look either sear stones have magical powers and should be used or they shouldn't why isn't Russell M Nelson using sear Stones today and encouraging other members to use them if not only Joseph Smith and Oliver calry used them but Martin Harris and the chases and all the people around Joseph Smith used them and if it was valid for Joseph Smith to use a searstone translating The Book of Mormon why again why AR prophets Apostles and members today all encouraged to use sear Stones if apparently they're super good useful things and not goofy uncredible embarrassments I think I can answer that okay there's two answers first is that according to wdor C stones have been surpassed by iPhones they're much better they're much more you know they work better and he has made that comparison no but that's silly because they they can literally translate Eng languages second and I think most importantly is that you've seen that video where russem Nelson is sat in a church historic site and he takes the hat off the table and he goes and sometimes he would put his head in and he goes to do it and he realizes you can see the realization on his face I know what this looks like I know how this story comes across and we do not want to Pedal it because we know that actually it under like he you can see that he knows within himself to show what that looks like would actually undermine what they're trying to say I mean this is my SE of stone back here it's a piece of granite from Utah right it's it becomes nonsensical at that point so I think Russ Nelson knows I think the leaders of the church know what it looks like and so I'll add to that as well they they were going to put the white hat in one of the recent uh videos that they produce at for naavu or wherever the visitor centers and they had the they have the the Hat in there like for two seconds but they never have him they have pictures of it you can see pictures of Joseph sitting or the actor sitting with the hat but they never put it in the video of him putting his face in the Hat I think they just know how ridiculous it looks yeah that's just like watch the South Park episode and then you know how stupid it is and um I will also point out when we talk about sear Stones hon pagee is one of the eight Witnesses he is the guy that said he was getting Revelations through his Sear Stone the Witnesses believe that he's getting real Revelations that Joseph Smith's like n uhuh that's the devil destroying that thing so I mean yeah they were using sear Stones Beyond Joseph Smith that's part of the reason Joseph Smith is choosing them and Joseph Smith then runs into issues where hon page is like dude I'm getting my own Revelations here and it's so believable that the other Witnesses are like dude check out hon page so it really is like a battle of Charisma and um and it just shows why yeah this is why the church doesn't use it today because the leaders don't want members thinking they can get Revelations from anyone but but from the leaders and the leaders know how stupid it looks let's just be honest and and and if we look at history it explains why the church hid the sear Stone in the Hat Thing For What 150 years and I think it was Hugh nibble we covered this in one of the previous episodes I think it was Hugh nibble who said that if this searstone in the Hat treasure digging thing turns out to be true it's going to be one of the biggest problems ever for the church and it has turned out to be a big problem was it the grand Richards that denied having it I have a feel remember who was it like it was the Grand Richard Watch past episodes because we cover all this I think I think Hugh nibble was about that 1826 trial record I think was that where he was saying that could be one of the biggest problems and then it ended up being a trial record but yeah yeah yeah okay well uh so I guess the summary is uh certainly all three of them had a magic worldview certainly all of them were related to Joseph Smith which means that there was a family connection there or in the case of Martin he was in it for maybe many reason apparently for the money and they you know they had some goofy worldviews right they weren't scientists and and super respected Scholars and thoughtful people for example and again just really quick what's interesting is that Martin Harris envisaged that they would charge for people to see the gold plates they didn't but they did charge later on for people to see the papy if I'm not mistaken yeah yeah but that was for Lucy Lucy got the money for that one though yeah Martin must have been annoyed yeah okay so what are we gonna say about Martin Harris now okay so these are some some sources going through with Martin Harris seeing the plates um this one is kind of different this is later in 1840 in 1834 okay wait so now we covering there now when their accounts are different than what we just got through Reading and explor yes yes okay so this one this one's a little bit different because it's it's coming out in 1834 so it's after the witness statements but this is Isaac hail this is um Emma the Joseph father-in-law talking and he's sharing this experience that that Martin is sharing with him um John do you want to read this yeah yeah okay so this is Emma's dad Isaac um and this is from the cesena register May 1 1834 so this would have been five years after it occurred and and clearly um Isaac halil was uh was close to these events he writes quoted it was said that Harris wrote down 116 pages and lost them soon after this happened Martin Harris informed me that he must have a greater witness and said that he had talked with Joseph about it Joseph informed him that he could not or Durst not show him the plates but that he Joseph would go into the woods where the book of plates was and that after he came back Harris should follow his track in the snow and find the book and examine it for himself Harris informed me afterwards that he followed Smith's directions and could not find the plates and was still dissatisfied okay Julie I've got two things there one is why all this goofiness like if if God is gonna show Martin Harris the plates later and if earlier Martin was literally allegedly in the room with Joseph while Joseph was allegedly translating the plates why wouldn't God just let Martin Harris see him while he's acting as a scribe let alone all this goofiness and making him wait until the end that's the first question I have and then the second question is yeah why this different account from Isaac halale where Martin was supposed to go out and find them himself that seems contradictory right I don't so the it continues on the next slide if I don't know if we want to that let's do it uh yeah do you want who who do you want to read you want me to continue oh yeah you you can just keep going if you don't mind the next day after this happened I went to the house where Joseph Smith Jr lived and where he and Harris were engaged in their translation of the book each of them had a written piece of paper which they were comparing and some of the words were quote my servant seeketh a greater witness but no greater witness can be given him there was also something said about quote three that were to see the thing meaning I suppose the book of plates and that if and that quote if the three did not go exactly according to orders the thing would be taken from them that's Nemo's point about Joseph's treasure conditionality uh to finish Isaac halil's comments I inquired whose words they were and was informed by Joseph or Emma I rather think it was the former Joseph that they were the words of Jesus Christ I told them then that I considered the whole of it a delusion and advised them to abandon it okay yes so I don't know if I have answers to all of your questions but it seems like I as we were talking and as we're reading this like Joseph is giving him very specific instructions and Martin's following them and he's reporting back to Joseph's like hey hey I followed your Footprints there was no plates and then Joseph Joseph may be priming him for will you actually listen to me will you actually do what I say or just reflecting on the on the magic worldview where in that last slide where he's kind of referencing that I don't know what this is I don't because this seems to be happening before the witnesses because because this is during Martin still translating the plates and then you you would say that just a few months later they all three saw them so I don't I don't really know what what's happening here it's just a really interesting account and to my knowledge Isaac's a very a good good uh Source he hasn't to my knowledge nothing that he has said has been false the people have found so um I don't know why he would lie yeah I think people like Believers and apologists like to discredit him because he thought Joseph was a fraud I'll say that if he's the father-in-law of Joseph and he went on Treasure digs with Joseph and he thinks Joseph's a fraud that should be taken into greater consideration not dismissed in my opinion uh Mike Mike what do you think yeah I mean he's an antagonistic Source because he he sees Joseph Smith well I mean he feels Joseph Smith as a fraud who's taken his daughter so um you can understand why he might be uh have more motivated reasoning to try to expose him um but at the same time there are details here that are pretty kind of they seem to fit well with what's going on so you can't dismiss it out of hand just because you don't like the fact that he doesn't like Joseph Smith and I I do think that like when we take all of these things as a whole it really does start to paint that picture and and that's why it's important and if what he's saying about Joseph Smith is true then he has good reason not to like Joseph Smith and we shouldn't just assume that because someone is biased towards uh One Direction or another that they are wrong like when you're studying the bias of sources you have to acknowledge the bias but if what they're saying is supported by other evidences then they can be right and also biased he can have a thing about Joseph and have a vendetta against Joseph and want to take Joseph down and still be saying correct things in the pursuit of that aim if those things are corroborated by other things does that make sense yeah and and and think about it from taking that one step further it's like you are witnessing a guy who you know is defrauding people through Treasure digging he has now gone and taken your your daughter away he's doing things that if you believe uh Isaac Hale's earlier accounts where Joseph Smith promises not to do it and all that stuff and then he does it um you're going to want to warn the people around him don't give them your money don't give them your time because you've already seen that he's defrauded other people so yeah it's kind of like saying oh you can't trust them they're a whistleblower and The Whistleblower is like dude I got all the receipts here I could show you exactly what I'm talking about I have evidence they're like no no you're a whistleblower you're biased it's like no I mean Isaac hail is likely trying to get people not to give their money give give their time to Joseph Smith so of course you'd expect that got it okay um yeah so that's important info thanks for sharing Julia yeah um all right what's uh what's next so this next one is a letter from Steph Bernett to brother Johnson and this was from April 15th of 1838 uh Nemo are you able to read this one yeah sure when I came to hear Martin Harris state in public that he never saw the plates with his natural Eyes Only in Vision or imagination neither Oliver nor David and also that the eight Witnesses never saw them and hesitated to sign that instrument for that reason but were persuaded to do it the last pedestal gave way in my view our foundation was sapped and the entire super structure fell in heap of ruins I therefore three weeks uh yeah I therefore or 3 weeks since in the Stone Chapel renounced The Book of Mormon after we were done speaking M Harris arose and said he was sorry for any man who rejected the Book of Mormon for he knew it was true he said he had hefted the plates repeatedly in a box with only a tablecloth or a handkerchief over them but he never saw them only as he saw a city through a mountain and that said that he never should have told that the testimony of the eight was false if it had not been picked out of him me but should have let it passed as it was okay Julia or Mike can one of you give some some Kirtland Ohio context for what is being discussed in this quote because I understand it there there was an apostasy that happens in Kirtland and some of it was potentially around Martin Harris some people believing that Martin Harris was equivocated a bit about um his witness to the Book of Mormon do I got that right I think so I think you probably better what year was this again was it 34 this is 3 this 37 it says 38 on the slide 38 so this is also the Kirland Bank um failure so a lot of the members a lot of the leaders of the church are leaving around the same time I think this is when all the whitmer's left as well and so I think just a lot of people are struggling and you can see that Martin's like well I shouldn't have said that about the eight Witnesses I didn't really see the plates just like you see a city through a mountain it was in a vision only this is Kirtland right we we're sure this is Kirtland right I don't I think it's that's where they were in 1838 okay and and and there here it has Martin saying that he never saw the plates with his natural Eyes Only in Vision or imagination and this is what Grant Palmer talks about in his book an Insider view of Mormon Origins this distinction between the physical eyes and his spiritual eyes or he uses other terms for it um do you guys remember the term gret Palmer uses uh second site second second site's one of them is is another way he describes it but but this account clearly casts questions about whether Martin tried to Def physicalize his his witness to the Book of Mormon right I mean yeah so um the only thing I could think of is there are these meetings that they're having I think they're in the Kirtland Temple because they are basically they've had enough of Joseph Smith you had the bank failure and so they're having this meeting to basically say do we still believe in the Book of Mormon we you know we don't believe in Joseph Smith but we still believe in the Book of Mormon I believe that might be the context of these meetings um but yeah and I know Dan vogle talked about how like the phrase is I have faith I have my mind those are very common revivalist uh languages about having those visions and so these these actually fit really well to that revivalist mindset of having these kind of visions that are like Second Sight you know not you know your spiritual eye so it fits in really well and that's why a lot of times we look at it now we're like man that's so weird at the time it wasn't as weird it just takes away the physicality of the gold plates which is really necessary for the entire book of Mor story to make any sense okay um did you Julie did you or Nemo have anything to add to that no not really I just want to I I think this is important this is one of the reasons why I I care so much about this whole topic one more thing I want to show and and Wikipedia isn't always like true per se uh obviously but in the Wikipedia article um I'll just read what it says on on Martin Harris it says in 1838 Harris is said to have told quote he never saw the plates with his natural Eyes Only in Vision or imagination and then it goes on to say a neighbor of his of Harris in Kirtland Ohio said that Harris quote never claimed to have seen the plates with his natural eyes only only spiritual vision and then the reference is Ruben P Harmon's statement um and I guess it says around 1885 but then I quot both of those and then it has this Stephen Bernett to Lyman Johnson in 1838 so you know that that's significant in my mind it does it's not at open and shut case but to me it's it's something everyone should know about well and then maybe another important thing that I should have said earlier is in 1837 Martin Harris was excommunicated from the church and we'll talk about that later um but yeah so in those two accounts we'll see we'll see the P Haron one Ruben's in a few slides okay but yeah and and Mike uh you know you you've you've sometimes communicated to be on the fence about whether or not this whole whole topic of witness credibility is important or not I just want to give you a chance to to sort of State on this particular quote if there's reasonable contemporary evidence to believe that Martin Harris said publicly that he didn't see the plates or the angel necessarily with his physical eyes is that significant for you or not and if so or if not why it's I mean it's significant it's just okay so to to answer the first part the reason I don't find the witnesses to be a super compelling topic is because if the book of like we we did how many however many episodes we've done if we know the gold plates could not have existed as they as they are claimed because we know that based on the fact that it the technology didn't exist there's no long records on gold plates there's no such thing as reformed Egyptian we know that the Book of Mormon itself is not historical we know there's you know no Nephites we know that Joseph Smith Smith was pulling stuff from the New Testament uh pulling stuff from uh like the long ending of Mark that exist Sermon on the Mount with mistakes if if all of that tells you the Book of Mormon is not what it claims to be and that there were no gold plates with Engravings then all of this is kind of irrelevant it' be like if someone was saying they had a vision of something more modern times that that wasn't historical you'd be like well I don't know what you saw but that doesn't exist and so that's why I don't think it matters because we could show historicity and Truth claims a lot better um from other aspects why it is important is because the church puts so much emphasis on the the the witness testimonies as a way for members today to believe so it's like well if you're doubting you can lean on those testimonies and that's why it's important because if if if the witness testimonies aren't as they are uh if they're a lot more complicated than the book of presents then members should know that so that they know what they're leaning their testimony on um as to this statement yeah I think there's is you know Julia's putting together a bunch of different statements about Martin haris said tell you without any question he is admitting that he is not seeing this with a natural um eye or with you know feeling it with his physically you know physically touching the plates and so that is really important because it further kind of gives us more depth into the whole idea of what's going on in the early church so I don't know if that really answers your question but to me it's not compelling to the truth claims of the church but it is very important because of the fact that the church still emphasizes it so much today got I I think it's so it's also important just because if you have someone who doesn't necessarily believe the reasoning you've given regarding the woman or um you know if someone's more inclined to believe the testimony of these Witnesses over you Mike or anyone else who tries to kind of put the claims about the Book of Mormon um you know tries to deal with those then addressing this is just another way in which you can show someone what the the point you're trying to achieve yeah that's a goodle all right Julie should we go to the next slide yeah yeah all right okay so this is is Jesse Townsen to Phineas Styles I don't know how to if it's Stills or Styles and this is published on December 24th it was actually so the it was actually published published in 1867 in pomoy Tucker's um origin rise in progress of Mormonism but it's dated December 24th of 1833 so there's that um uh Mike do you want to read this one yeah um at that time Martin Harris was worth5 or $6,000 while the Smiths were not worth a scent the latter used Martin's money freely and some other men having a great dislike to labor joined Joe in his deceptions among whom was a sort of school master named calry who assisted him in writing or transcribing The Book of Mormon as a pretended translation of the Golden Plates which he affirmed he had been directed by the spirit of the Lord to dig from the earth this was all done in the most secret manner at the same time it was assumed to the uninitiated that it would be immediate death for any except the translators to see the plates poor Martin's Faith was apparently strengthened by this pretention but afterward the command was modified and he claimed to have seen the plates with his with spiritual eyes yeah so did you have comments I mean go ahead Julie go ahead I was just gonna say like that one was interesting to me because he says what is it immediate death if they see the plates and then we'll get in the wait in the eight Witnesses and other Witnesses um one of them one of them says that he sees a corner of the plat says it's passing through the window I can't remember his name at the top of my head um and he says that it was like the color green um but nobody was destroyed nobody was like either Joseph or this person didn't die so I I thought that was interesting and then again Martin Harris is it's reiterating that he saw them with his spiritual eyes yeah I'm pretty sure that that we can find quotes where Joseph Smith is basically saying yeah you know Emma Isaac Martin Oliver none of you can see the plates because if you do you'll die and for me number one that's weird is that really the way the world works but then secondly why would God make it so in all those early instances you die but then but then in this special instance when the Witnesses are supposed to see it all of a sudden they won't die that I mean if anybody else was doing that sort of garbage like Mike often likes to say you would say they're making stuff up although there is precedent for that you only have to look at the Arc of the Covenant in the Old Testament to see that God allows certain people to handle his sacred objects touch touch the Arc of the Covenant right yeah but then but then you have in the Book of Mormon text itself you have Moroni running for his life trying to protect the plates from the lonit if this was true why the lamanites would have just dropped dead right if they had seen or I don't know I just I didn't Emma pick up the plates when she was dusting under them yeah there's stories of Emma and the dad moving them yeah we really want to think that Emma never peaked ever like she's literally piing up the plates to dust but she doesn't lift up the the clo to look at him yeah well I mean I think um from what I I looked at this indust a while ago but if I remember correctly from an apologetic standpoint all of the quotes about the people who look at them dying are from sources that would be considered antagonistic and the only one we have if I remember correctly the only one we have that's from either Joseph Smith or like church documents is the one we did earlier which said that Joseph himself would die if other people looked at him and so apologists will say that that that part of the revelation got Twisted by people down the road and so yeah if I remember correctly there's not really anything that's like super duper solid um to say that because otherwise yeah that would be the thing like when Joseph's running through the woods and claiming to be attacked by three different groups of people at three different times he would just hold the plate out and then they just fall dead and he just he could just walk slowly so you know I don't really know what to make of it but I would say that from an apologetic standpoint and I think they're right in the sense of there's nothing really official um that says that the people who look at them will die it is that is coming from sources later on that are are not friendly to Joseph Smith right and then the one coming from the scriptures you could like John was saying you can reinterpret it as or interpret it as um Joseph's won't be seen as credible and H like it it will be he'll to be destroyed that way rather than physically okay it's just yeah I mean people have to make their own decisions to me it's just super weird that sometimes they can see him with if God says so but other times they can't see him inconsistent Nar narrative but then I think throughout all this the behavior of God certainly as Joseph Smith describes it is quite inconsistent I mean a non-mormon is GNA look at us all and say you're all like this is like Hobbits and dwarves and elves like you're all trying to take serious this account that strains all credibility from the start in the material world Angels don't deliver Golden Plates to to humans yeah but but here we are trying to stray like okay wait why did he hide it and when did he see and did Martin mean it when he said it was his physical eyes or not like it's kind of interesting that we're even taking this seriously honestly well it's like um when we did our book of Abraham episodes we did I think three episodes right and I believe it was Nemo at the start of the first episode who said this should be a 15minute episode Joseph Smith said the book Abraham Papyrus said this he said it was written by Abraham on his by his hand upon Papyrus he said it was dated this time and now we know this is what it said it was dated a thousand years later has nothing to do ab I mean that should be your episode but because of the way the church sounds like me yeah because of the church has built these these different apologetics and these different goalpost moving up you have to spend all this time we're an hour and a half in about something that in all honesty should be a 15-minute episode when we talk about the discrepancies in the witness witness statements who the Witnesses are and and yeah to your point I mean I've explained this basic story it's just the basic story yeah I mean I've explained this to a few people that are not members of the church and and just watching their expressions it's like they look at you like you were a part of that and it's like yeah but but when you're in it it sounds good because you're not getting all you know you're not really thinking about it critically but yeah if you you know to use that same example if I go to a w meeting and I try to explain this to someone they'd be like that guy's making it up it's like yeah that's Joseph Smith they're like oh no no not Joseph Smith he he was real though it's like don't give away my secrets Mike because like people don't realize my entire channel is basically based around looking at what John does in 3 hours and going I can do that in 15 minutes yeah that's essentially how I make my living it is but you know the thing but the book of Abraham you can't do it in 15 minutes because then go they go why don't why aren't you looking about the the law scroll it's like well that that's a stupid argument why aren't you looking at the long scroll well here's why that's a bad argument so you have to do it because otherwise you're accused of leaving that out but at the same time yeah this is this is not something that should take that long but we have to because we have to address what the church has reframed this all as and that's why it's so frustrating and that's why to John's point to anyone outside the church they're like this is nonsense but when you're in it you have to really go through all the details and even then most people won't believe you anyways and Nemo the ghost of Robert Ritner is going to haunt you I can tell you that right now yeah yeah the ghosts of Michael Co and Robert written are gonna terrorize you till you're dying day that's fair I'll take it there are worse people to be haunted by okay Julia what what are we doing with John a Clark here um so this is a book called gleanings by the way and it was published in 1842 do we want to read this whole thing yeah so this is John a Clark he says to know how much this testimony is worth I will state one fact a gentleman in Palmyra Brad to the law a professor of religion an undoubted veracity told me that on one occasion he appealed to Harris and asked him directly did you see those plates Harris replied he did did you see the plates and the Engravings on them with your bodily eyes which is an interesting way of asking physical if it was a physical thing Harris replied yes I saw them with my eyes they were shown unto me by the power of God and not of man but then the person's asking but did you see them with your natural your bodily eyes just as you see this pencil case in my hand now say no or yes to this Harris replied why I do not see them as I do that pencil case or I did not see them excuse me why I did not see them as I do that pencil case yet I saw them with the eye of faith I saw them just as distinctly as I see anything around me though at the time they were covered with a cloth back pedling 101 so he saw him through a cloth that's what that's what this account is saying and this is what I say 1840 yeah when this published yeah I saw them but not but in a spiritual sense and they were covered with a cloth so okay yeah all right let's go to the next one um John do you want to read this one yeah so this is Martin Harris interview with Anthony metf sometime in the early 1870s so this is Martin Harris himself um all right Martin Harris who was one of the three witnesses to the Book of Mormon was living in Smithfield Cash Valley where close to where I used to live in North Logan with his son Martin I called to see him and he gave me his history from his youth up this occurred in the winter of 1875 to 76 um which makes those dates wrong above um following is the I think following is the history as related to me including all his connections with Joseph Smith the pretended prophet and the founder of the Mormon church he told me all about the Translating of the Book of Mormon and said he had given $5,000 towards this publication he said quote so this is Martin I never saw the Golden Plates only in a Visionary or entranced State I wrote a great deal of the Book of Mormon myself except that got lost as Joseph Smith translated or spelled the words out in English sometimes the plates would be on a table in the room in which Smith did the Translating covered with over with the cloth I was told by Joseph Smith that God would strike him dead if he attempted to look at them now that's Martin saying that and I believed it of course through uh Anthony mcaf um uh so I was told by Joseph Smith that God would strike him dead if he attempted to look at it and I believed it when the time came for the three witnesses to see the Golden Plates Joseph Smith myself David Whitmer Al Al calary went into the woods to pray when they had all all engaged in prayer they failed at that time to see the plates so weirdly Martin Harris's righteousness affected Joseph Oliver and um and David's experience um but I continue they all believed it was because I was not good enough or in other words not sufficiently Sanctified again that's treasure digging Vibes about not killing the chicken properly um but I digress back to Martin I withdrew as soon as I had gone away the three others saw the angel in the plates in about three days I went into the woods to pray that I might see the plates while praying I passed into a state of entrancement and in that state I saw the Angel and the plates now that's different from the church's version of what happened with Martin right isn't that just smack of the kid that got left out like he goes and all his friends get to see the thing and then so he a couple of days later then claims that he saw it too because he doesn't want to be left out like that's the vibe I get from that yeah wait I just wanted to point out with the timeline so he's so sorry Anthony MAV had this interview with him in 7475 whatever it says on the slide but his book wasn't he didn't publish this until 88 if you look at the on the other side so yeah he's so he's he's reflecting about the this other the winter events anyway so that yeah so I just wanted to clarify that but yeah so he's saying one thing yeah that of course he's saying Jo Martin Harris in this account he's saying that three days later he goes into the woods and has his experience whereas in the official history of the church Joseph's version it was just the same afternoon he just goes they have their experience and then he goes off and finds him praying and then he then he with Martin have that Vision again and and on the one hand he's old and it's many years later and sometimes people's memory gets foggy on the other hand when you're literally seeing angels in Golden Plates you think you kind of remember when that happens Mike thought on this no it just shows you know like I said that the Joseph Smith history is written after Martin Harris is kind of booted out of the church and so that's why you're getting some of these discrepancies Martin Harris isn't there to say no Joseph that's not what happened it was actually three days later um and it also shows to a certain extent why this could be a quick episode because you could say here's what the original witness statement is here's why we know that's not how it happened once you could show that they made changes to get that harmonized statement of the three Witnesses it now shows that it's unreliable because you know they've already altered it to try to make it fit all three of them at once and I think that's where you know you once once you could show it's unreliable it's like well then how do you trust it especially given all of the surrounding context and again there's precedent for um people not quite remembering the exact nature of very very important Heavenly visitations uh let's just look at Joseph Smith and his multiple accounts the first Vision yeah we got a couple more let's go ahead and get to them uh what's the next one Julia okay so this is John H Gilbert this is in his memorandum and it was published on September 8th of 1892 so this is a later Source but he says Martin was was in the office when I finished setting up the testimony of the three Witnesses Harris cowr Whitmer I said to him Martin did you see those plates with your Naked Eyes Martin looked down for an instant raised his eyes up and said no I saw them with with his spiritual eye John can I get your best impression of of that like a look down and then a look up like it's like no I saw them with the spiritual eye I don't know boom that's how you sell it right there and I mean that is super late I mean that would be the criticism of that quote it's super late go ahead I was just gonna say but it's it's confirming these other ones that we've said so and do we know John H Gilbert's position with the church was he a hater was he I don't I don't know like like I was saying earlier it kind of Almost Doesn't Matter What his position was If this just corroborates all the other stuff we know yeah then it kind of stands on its own really okay okay and let's go ahead and do uh let's do the next one pomoy Tucker and this one's just pomar Tucker is just kind of setting up in this one he's just setting up Martin's perspective his magic worldview and he says how to reconcile the act of Harris in signing his name to such a statement in view of the character of honesty which had always been conceited to him could never be easily explained in reply to uncharitable suggestions of his neighbors Martin used to practi a good deal of his characteristic jargon about seeing with the spiritual eye and the like as regards the other Witnesses associated with Harris they a vermin in this and other matter could could excite no more surprise than than did those of Smith himself read that last sentence again sorry um as regards to the other Witnesses associated with Harris their averment in this or any other matter could excite no other no more surprise than did those of Smith himself okay so Nemo translate that for us oh okay you have to put it back up on screen just that last sentence what are they saying in that yeah so um so regarding the other Witnesses of Harris um what's an averment an a aversion is that what that's meant to be I think needs to say something happened but hopefully I didn't spell that an assertion of fact yeah okay so their position no no one's going to get surprised by the fact that they hold this position any more than they'd be surprised if Joseph Smith held this position basically they they're saying that they will sink up and that that's what I'm taking from the spiritual eye yeah well and Joseph even Joseph himself even calls it a vision and I'm pretty sure he says that in the history of the church like he he uses that similar language and so like that's just how he has these things occur okay yeah on the one hand Mike to your point if it's all Visionary then it's all possible if you believe in Visions on the other hand the whole point of the three and the eight Witnesses is to say that it wasn't n Visionary but they saw with their own eyes and touched with their own hands so we can't it can't be both ways right they're designed to take away that element of Faith aren't they yep that's just it it's kind of like someone had said it earlier about well if it was true I forgot what it was but when we talk about the book of Abraham i' I've been told this by multiple people to say if Joseph Smith got the translation correct there'd be no need for Faith and I'm just like what like you know and this is the same thing here it's like well if the if the Witnesses were more credible or or the statement's locked up more then there'd be no need for Faith it's like that's silly and you know um to to make a point that I would have made earlier in the episode actually you know is there are three Witnesses here there are all these people that are ridiculing Joseph Smith why not pull some of them in and be like hey you're a local journalist come on over let's do this you know maybe that's more for the eight Witness episode but yeah it just it just shows how none of this really makes sense from the standpoint of looking at it from the outside um and it just you know it reads as silly to us today because it is but from when you're in the church it just makes sense and I guess that's where it's so hard to kind of untangle that and certainly the church never taught us about these various uh you know versions of What Martin did or didn't see it was meticulously and thoughtfully and intentionally hid from all of us which should also be its own witness so to speak let's go a and go to the last slide with Martin Harris Julia okay so this one you referenced before this is R Ruben P Haron and it was published in the this newspaper called naked truths about Mormonism in 1888 and he says I was well acquainted with with Martin Harris who was often at my house for days at a time I have questioned him much about the plates from which The Book of Mormon purports to have been translated he never claimed to have seen them with his natural Eyes Only spiritual vision okay well I think I think that's an important summary of Martin Harris and his credibility as a witness yeah yep as a witness with the intent that you would imagine Witnesses are for which is to remove that element of faith and to provide a testimony of something very real and very tangible not everyone gets because this was the idea well of course not everyone could go see the gold plates people would trying and steal them people would try and take them away from Joseph they're try and Rob him so trusted people had to put their name to it and say yes we did in fact see them also you should believe Joseph Smith but when there's a big asterisk that says we didn't really see them we saw them in a vision guided by Joseph Smith you're like ah okay well then that doesn't provide the assurances that a witness was meant to provide and I'll just add two really good resources for this I think would be F bro's know man knows my history but also Grant Palmer's and Insider view of Mormon Origins Julie have you read that book yet I I think it's like either really expensive or it's not available anymore I don't have it yet I'll send it to you because I oh okay yeah let's get that to you um and Mike did you ever read Grant Palmer's insiders view no no I mean I've read chunks of it but I haven't read like I've read chunks that are online but I haven't read the whole thing neither I think it's time for John D to send books to everyone all right all right well that's good uh all right so that I mean my my view is that Martin Harris isn't a super credible guy based on what I've seen and his his witness statement appears to to strain uh credulity based on his um equivocating after the fact so that's just my summary so far all right Julia well that's uh that's enough about Martin Harris I guess it's time to now talk about David Whitmer shall we yeah all right let's do it um so the this next one is from the pomy reflector and this was one of the early U newspapers that Fon BR was mentioning this is published on March 19th of 1831 Nemo do you want to go ahead and read this one sure sure oh just to be clear we're now calling out stories that again uh relate to David Whitmer that don't jive with the official of the witnesses story is that right right like the like the guy said there's 70 accounts from him and these are just a few that don't or that change our understanding of the other ones that that have been published okay and just to remind just because I'm a little bit uh Rusty so we have how many total uh you said where's that slide oh it's from earlier it's from an Richard Lloyd Anderson or something like that from the fair confence so Martin Harris had 50 David Whitmer has a 70 David Whitmer was the most um interviewed of the someone else had 30 okay so we so this is just a sampling of seven these yeah these are just the like little all right go ahead Nemo I know it is whitmer's description of the Book of Mormon differs entirely from that given by Harris both of whom it would seem have been of late permitted not only to see and handle it but to examine its contents Whitmer relates that he was led by Smith into an open field on his father's farm near watero when they found the book lying on the ground careless Smith took it up and requested him to examine it which he did for the space of half an hour or more when he returned it to Smith who placed it in his former position alleging that the book was in the custody of another intimating that some Divine agent would have it in safekeeping okay I'm already disturbed because where are the three right why is it in a field where's the angel and is it the book or is it the plates like so and that's also Disturbed that it's 1831 that's that's like two years after the event happened that's super recent right and then only one year after it was published because their testimonies were published in the Book of Mormon in 1830 and so it's just one year after their official statements already out so why are we hearing stories of him going to an open field and and they're using yeah they're using the word book instead of plates like they called it the Bible business and so that could be what they're meaning that it's the book The Gold Bible or I mean like that they're just using that interchangeably like book means plates I don't I don't know but um I'm also wanting to remind our viewers and listeners about the episode we did with you about David Whitmer and the mesic priesthood and how David Whitmer was a whistleblower that Joseph basically made up the mesic priesthood stuff after the fact right Mike yeah I mean he did that way later than this of course but yeah I mean I think and and and it does to Julia's point this interview clip or however it's being reported is a little bit ambiguous and so I'm sure from an apologetic standpoint you just say they didn't really understand what David Whitmer was trying to say but at the same time it it also gives you that kind of idea that these guys don't really have the same story even though they signed that harmonized statement and that's why as Julia said you know you look at the ones that show you the inconsistencies because as as we talked about at the beginning of the episode when you have those inconsistencies it really does call into question the reliability of all of it okay Julia sorry we interrupted you oh no that was good that was great okay okay so that's one what's next okay so this next one is an David Whitmer was interviewed by Orson Pratt and it was published in the millennial star in 1878 and um this is sort of a conversation between the two of them um Nemo do you wna do you want to read this one yeah yeah can do so Elder op uh awesome Pratt it says do you remember what time you saw the plates David responds it was in June 1829 the latter part of the month and the eight Witnesses saw them I think the next day or the day after I.E one or two days after Joseph showed them the plates himself but the angel showed us the three Witnesses the plates as I suppose to fulfill the words of the book itself Martin Harris was not with us at this time he obtained a view of them afterward the same day Joseph Oliver and myself were together when I saw them we not only saw the plates of the Book of Mormon but also the brass plates the plates of the book of ether the plates containing the records of the wickedness and secret combinations of the people of the world down to the time of their being engraved and many other plates the fact is it was just as though Joseph Oliver and I were sitting just here on a log when we were overshadowed by a light it was not like the light of the sun nor like that of a fire but more glorious and beautiful it extended away round us I cannot tell how far but in the midst of this light about as far as he sits pointing to John C Whitmer sitting a few feet from him there appeared as it were a table with many records or plates upon it besides the plates of the Book of Mormon also the sword of laan the directors I.E the ball which Lehi had and the interpreters I saw them just as plain as I see this bed striking the bed beside him with his hand and I heard the voice of the Lord as distinctly as I ever heard anything in my life declaring that the records of the plate of the Book of Mormon were translated by the gift and power of God Elder awesome Pratt did you see the angel this time David Whitmer yes he stood before us our testimony as recorded in the Book of Mormon is strictly and absolutely true as it is there written thank you but oddly there's extra things in this that aren't in that yeah that's the main thing I wanted to point out well I do want to also notice at the very beginning he talks about the time I don't the church doesn't have it the church is like we don't know what day or time this was and we don't know about the eight Witnesses either but he's saying it was late June and that Martin saw it on the same day and then the next he said the day after or the next day after the eight Witnesses obtain their witness um so that's I thought that was really interesting but also that contradicts what Martin said in a later account where he said it was the three days later that he saw um the angel and had his experience but also if yeah if you go to the slide so so you'll notice that David Whitmer lists a bunch of different items that were not they were not that they didn't W they were not Witnesses for so so you have the Golden Plates which is of course why they have the witness he says also the brass plates the plates of ether the plates of wickedness and secret combinations many other plates a table the sword of laan directors interpreters or the ethum or the spectacles and the angel and so what I'm also noticing is that earlier when we talked about the first revelation that Joseph was giving in June where he's like oh yeah you'll witness the you'll witness the Y theum the liahona the sword of laan David Whitmer is even adding more items he's saying the brass plates the plates of the secret combinations and things like that so there's even more items or even this table nobody else describes this table except David Whitmer I kind of Wonder a little bit if David Whitmer is being led by the Revelation um being changed because we know it was changed uh because y was not a term at this time and I just wonder too like cuz these this account is so late that David Whitmer has seen that Revelation because I think that would have been published wasn't in the book of Commandments I'm not entirely sure exactly when that gets published but if he sees that Revelation that has all that added stuff he just kind of remembers it or if him remembering it is what puts it in the Revelation but either way it yeah you're right it's at odds with everything else yeah another thing I noticed too is that he's he describes this table that's a few feet away from him and they're witnessing things kind of at a distance which I thought was really interesting just like it's not even a very I don't know have you seen the show is a cake where they like have the cakes really far away they're like yeah anyway it kind of made me think of that where it's like it's not even a very good witness I mean my my understanding from what's written in the front of the book of about what the book and woman is made of is that it's an abridgment of these different things that he's describing as individual objects he's talking about the plates of brass and the gold plates as though they weren't Abridged by the ancient prophets and all put onto the gold plates I thought I could be completely wrong here but I thought the point of Nephi going back to get the brass plates was to preserve them and they got kept and then the gold plates were made towards the end they were made as an abridgment of all these records that have been kept over time that's why we have gospel artwork of prophets sitting down with written records sat engraving them with a stylus so why are we being shown these things all separately kind of it's weird yeah is it just me or is that yeah it's it's a little weird yeah I mean tell me if I'm missing something here as far as this slide goes I I could see a logician just saying well that's a bunch of extra stuff but you know the church just focused on the most important thing which is the Golden Plates because that proves The Book of Mormons true and they eliminated the other stuff either because it's not Central to the gospel or the validity The Book of Mormon or because frankly they thought it was weird and just didn't want it included that's I think that's what a logician might or an AP might say Well then why was then why was that retroactive uh like what Mike was saying that that Revelation was written why was why did Joseph write that saying that they would view all these other items like if if the gold plates are the most important then why did why did he do that yeah um yeah but also why why is David the only witness of the three that ever describes these extra items to my knowledge like anyway it's just and I mean some of these extra items we know now weren't particularly used in the trans ation process like these for example these interpreters right um we know that for convenience Joseph Smith often used the C the peep Stone so it's it's I I don't know whether they're like trying to add them in to add legitimacy to their existence when they weren't re part the process but you would think with a kind of a a view forward um that they would just take the interpreters out of the story entirely because they weren't used so why would do you know what I mean they just they aren't part of the narrative now but they were back then sort thing about the interpreters to the Book of Mormon the the of well I mean it's it's it's integral and it's one of those things too where we talked about that with the Revelation to Oliver about having the water witching and it's just I feel like they tried to strip out that magical stuff as much as they could because when you're in that early church everybody's in that magical worldview right and then you're trying to expand it and you meet all these people who are like yeah that's all absolute nonsense and like well it's not really that magical this actually happened the other stuff is magical and I do feel like there's an effort to strip it out because you want to make it seem as like you know I don't want to say secular but at least as physical as possible as opposed to magical all right well let's keep rolling this is fascinating Julia yeah okay so this next one is David whitmer's interview with John Murphy and so this one I thought was really interesting so in an 18 inter an 1880 interview with John Murphy David Whitmer was asked about what the angel looked like d David Whitmer responded it had no appearance or shape Murphy says then you saw nothing nor heard nothing Whitmer says nothing in the way you understand it Murphy then says how then can you bear that how then could you have borne testimony that you saw and heard an angel Whitmer have you never had Impressions Murphy then you had impressions as the Quaker when the spirit moves or as a good Methodist and giving a happy experience a feeling Whitmer just so merely a Feeling yeah so he's saying that there was that the angel was had no appearance or shape and that it was just an impression but 50 years earlier he was saying that he saw yeah an angel stood there right in the midst of light and I mean traditionally with historians the earliest account is usually best is assumed to be best and I'm just wondering if we can think that way about these Witnesses because when they were members of the church they were sort of under Joseph Smith's control and influence and they would have been more susceptible to his pressure and his power and I'm just wondering if we can trust the witnesses more while they were under Jose Miss power or more once they had left the church and left Joseph's orbit you're saying like later sources is when they're actually then kind of working out for themselves what really happened able to be more honest yeah basically without worrying about repercussions I I don't know what do you think it's hard right because we have like Whitmer saying you know that Joseph Smith Never uh talked of like the mezic priesthood originally which we covered in the priesthood uh episode and yeah because obviously when he was in the church he's not going to blow the whistle on Joseph Smith there because he's got a a position of power Oliver cowry um in that same episode on the priesthood of restoration was given the second in the church by basically fabricating the story of Peter James and John and then when he comes back to the church at the end he kind of pulls back some of the grandness of that story when he's talking to um people in the church like after Joseph died and he comes back so it's hard because the memory is going to change over time as we all know those stories change they they kind of you focus on different things at the same time you're not having to you know kind of take one for the team either so that's a hard one yeah yeah all right well that's fascinating uh and and it jives with some of the stuff Martin was saying right Julia yeah yeah he's how Martin saw in a vision yeah yeah okay let's do the next one so this next one is when so uh David Whitmer in the um hang on let me get my bearings straight okay so in so this is the same thing in concluding his interview to his audience the editor of the Hamilton newspaper um John Murphy stated my impression which I think to be as good as his a as his or his Angel is that he ought to reconsider and contradict his former testimony to a delusion or perhaps a cunning scheme being a fact which has resulted in so much woe to many and as he seems to be nearly 80 years old he ought not to delay so this is so so the interview was published in this newspaper and John Murphy's giving his like final like like his conclusion of his speech to these people to the editor I mean and so he's saying he says David Whitmer should just recant his testimony he should just reconsider like you know and then later you'll this next slide David Whitmer responds to him publicly and that's one of the reasons why he published his pamphlet um I can't remember the name of it this second um and address to all believers in Christ and so we'll re we'll read his response but so he just shares so John Murphy shares the interview and then he's like it it sounds to me like he didn't really see the angel so he should just reconsider um he should contradict his former testimony and he should do it fast because he's he's an old man and he's gonna die soon so just anyway so I just so that's important context for this next slide okay keep going yeah okay so Mike do you want to read this one the rebuttal y so this is on March 1881 David Whitmer responds to John Murphy's claims he says it having been rep represented by one John Murphy of Polo Caldwell County uh Missouri that I in a conversation with him last summer denied my testimony as one of the three witnesses to the Book of Mormon to the end therefore that he may understand me now if he did not then and that the world may know the truth I wish now standing as it were in the very Sunset of life and in the fear of God once for all to make this public statement that I have never at any time denied that testimony or any part thereof which has so long been since been published with that book as one of the three Witnesses those that know me best well know that I have always adhered to that testimony and that no man May Mis Li be may be misled or doubt my present views in regard to the same I do again affirm the truth of all of my statements as then made and published he that hath an ear to hear Let Him hear it was no delusion um what is written is written and he that readeth let him understand sry right so Julia what do you want us to take from that so he so a lot of people point to this one they're like see he never denied his testimony and so the thing that John Murphy wasn't pointing out that he was denying his testimony which I think is really interesting so the word delusion means it's a falsehood so I think David Whitmer or it sounds like these Witnesses actually saw what they said they saw but in a Visionary State and so he and he was trying to say know David wmer says oh they weren't really there it was like it wasn't what did he say the it wasn't in a form it had no appearance or shape and it was just an impression and then so I think what he's I think what David Whitmer is responding to is this idea that he gives the the John Murphy says oh he should just reconsider pulling his testimony or recanting it because this he didn't actually see the angel and then David Whitmer reiterating yes I did see him but I think so I think they're just misunderstanding each other what were your guys's thoughts when you read this I have a I have a couple of thoughts on that one if you could just put it back up real quick um I think it's it's really interesting the way he says um it was no delusion almost speaks like someone that's trying to say I wasn't tricked because what's hard for someone to admit even if their beliefs have changed is admitting that they were ever tricked about something so he's unlikely to do that regardless of what he truly believes and it it's a problem um we we talked earlier about psychology and I'm kind of kind of throw a bit of my pseudo psychology out there and then John can speak to it kind of professionally but my the idea that's put out there that it's more important for human beings often to appear right than to be right we place more importance on appearing correct to to others so he doesn't want to ever be seen as someone that was tricked or someone that is you know had said something at one point that they now no longer support so of course he's taking that position of supporting it even if he has changed the story over time because the earlier tellings was that he saw something physical and now the tellings he is he's telling it in in a more abstract way um and that seems to me to speak of someone that's trying to show a way in which this can make sense oh no it was all abstract it was all abstract without having to fully recant their previous testimony saying that they saw these things they can say they saw them in a different way they're you know Shifting the goal post so that they still appear correct in what they did because regardless of his relationship to the church now he doesn't ever want to be seen as someone that put his name and his testimony to something particularly at that time in history when your word was very important and was kind of you know what people took you by a lot of the time if you signed a tesy to something you don't want to be seen as someone that does that lightly or incorrectly that's my thoughts yeah and I would just add in addition to being tricked he wouldn't want to be seen as as a charlatan or a fraud someone who's deceived other people right right yeah either yeah yeah okay yeah all right all right all right what's next and Mike feel at any time all right Mike yep I'm good no yeah all I would say is like you guys said it's her Legacy so I mean David Whitmer is not going to want to say IC you guys on his deathbed and have his entire Legacy be trash and like you say he want to say that he was tricked because that makes him look like he lived a lie and as we all know from from people around us nobody when you first tell them about even stuff with church the church's claims most people are immediately going to going to retrench because they don't want to ever have to come to terms with the fact that they were raised in something that's not true so not really a surprise there got it yeah okay what's next Julia so this is just part so um this is from Dan vogle I love his work and he's published a lot of these early Mormon documents he's got I think five volumes anyway he he kind of gives some commentary about this interview he pointed out that as the editor of the Kingston times subsequently noted quote the studious reader will fail to see wherein Mr Murphy alleges that Elder Whitmer denies being a witness so I pointed that earlier where where John Murphy didn't say he denied his testimony he's just saying we need to see it in my head it's like we need to see it as a different understanding like he he saw what he says he saw but it wasn't a physical thing whereas David Whitmer built up a straw man and accused him of saying that he did something and then got to defend that yeah yeah exactly yes very straw man interesting okay okay so this next one is David whitmer's interview with Joseph Smith II and this happened in 1884 John do you want read this from the Saints heral yeah and is the context here that Joseph Smith III is older now he's leading uh the reorganized church and he's just trying to learn more about his dad and what really happened and he's interviewing people to find their stories is that that's that's a good summary yeah okay all right so so again this is the Saints Herald January 28th 19 it says 1936 yeah so so it's published so yeah these happen yeah so it's published in 19 19 36 but it was the interview happened in 1884 so like I try to keep both dates on there because I don't want to be accused of like yeah got it got it okay so this is a document that they would have had in their possession but it they didn't publish it formally you know of until that date okay right quote so this is uh David Whitmer speaking uh no no no no okay I'll start quote Whitmer was interviewed by Joseph Smith the third in the presence of others not all of whom were disposed to believe his account significantly he listed several items that he had seen besides the Golden Plates okay that's consistent with the past accounts we read rather suggestively Colonel Giles asked if it might not have been possible that he Mr Whitmer had been mistaken and had simply been moved upon by some mental disturbance or hallucination which had deceived them into thinking he had saw the personage the angel the the Yum Thum and the sword of laben how well and distinctly I remember the manner in which Elder Whitmer arose and Drew himself up to his full height a little over six feet and said in solemon impressive tones no sir I was not under any hallucination nor was I deceived I saw with these eyes and I heard with these ears I know whereof I speak all right well you're just proving the church's true Julia that's John's a little over six feet JN you stand up and so I added this one in there so this one isn't contradictory to the story but what I want to point out also is I feel like this is a straw man thing again because he says I saw with these eyes um and then I heard with my ears so no one's no one's saying that he didn't like but what we're saying and what he seems to be implying with all these other accounts is that it was not an actual physical how how are he implying it there I didn't see that well not here but he's but he is but in these other ones ones okay like right here he's saying like he's saying I saw with my eyes it was no hallucination but like you can still have hallucinations and see with your eyes and hear with your ears I guess like it's just a little bit yeah yeah I mean I'm seeing a lot of defensiveness in this I'm seeing a lot of like he's because essentially someone's accused him of being tricked or having a hallucination and he wants to put that idea to bed like we were talking about earlier it's like no no that's not what happened to me um but then if you were to dig deeper into it the spiritualized thing would probably come out again um right yeah yeah I was going to say I think with the with the concept of hallucinations and things like that are sort of like seen as negative like oh this is from the devil but he sees this as a very spiritual experience and so I don't think he would have ever used those words to describe it nor have they they say they say it's in a Visionary state or things like that that are more more scriptural or more holy words I guess foration implies that your brain's tricking you essentially into seeing something there right exactly yeah okay cool all right and that's it's also good we don't mind sharing affirming corroborative evidence on this podcast we're trying to be balanced and so we're we're trying to show lots of different accounts so that's good juliia all right okay so this next one is from this is from a book called the P it's public discussions of the issues between the reorganized church and the Church of Christ so they're two there none of these are the mainstream Church These are different churches and the authors are Kelly and Braden and this was published in 1884 and it's this is just giving like kind of an overview of their opinion of the statements Mike do you are you able to read this one just you can start we are now ready yeah so it says we are now ready for the eight Witnesses their testimony is worthless they testify that they saw and handled certain plates that Joe showed them that the plates had on them characters of ancient workmanship and were of ancient and curious workmanship that they saw as many plates as Smith had translated how did they know that he had translated the plates before them how did they know that Joe had translated any plates that the plates had been given to him by an Angel that the Book of Mormon was a translation of the plates before them or of any plates the only thing that they could testify that was that Joe had showed them certain plates all the rest they could not know and lied when they said they did not know or and lied when they said they did know another fatal objection to the testimony of both the three Witnesses and of the eight is that is they are all of the gang of low villainous followers of Smith and interested in the fraud the 13 are as follows impo impostor Joe author of The fraud old Joe his father a notorious drunkard liar and Thief hram Smith his brother afterwards a leader in Mormonism um Samuel H Smith I think another old Mr Whitmer David Whitmer Christian Whitmer Peter Whitmer John Whitmer Oliver cryy hron pagee brother-in-law of the Whitmer Martin Harris old Mrs Whitmer and Emma Smith Joe's wife six Whitmer one family member of the one member of the family for Smith Oliver codrey and Martin Harris that's pretty antagonistic huh yeah wow so I think even as an active member of the church I remember think processing like what seeing gold plates doesn't mean that you know that the translation is correct and that's what this book is trying to point out like seeing the plates it doesn't help Joseph's case and so I just thought that was an important and this almost strikes me as like they're describing the beginning of what is a Trope in Mormonism to this day saying you know things that you can't actually know we say I know the church is true you can't know that you can believe that and that's fine that can be your belief but using the word no to ascribe certainty to a position that's held purely in belief because you don't actually have any evidence so therefore you can't know that that we see that language there and that's something that's happening today in testimony meetings all around the world yep yeah yeah well I mean look at the characters document we we've done an episode talking about that the characters document has no place anywhere I know like book of Morman Central has done things where you find like you take like 20,000 characters you find like 10 that match or whatever um but they don't you know you talked to Robert Ritner when he was still alive he's like no this is nothing so even if Joseph Smith had found a way to take a prop set of plates and carve some symbols on the top it wouldn't actually mean anything because we already have the characters document which is nonsense and that was from Joseph Smith so if those characters are nonsense what's to say he couldn't have in that year figured out a way to carve some in I mean I I doubt he did but if he did like Julia said it wouldn't matter well you pointed out too we have or maybe it was Nemo that we have the Scrolls from Abraham and the Kinder hook plates and those are both Incorrect and so like even if they had even if the plates did exist the witnesses seeing them does not mean that his translation is is true no if they would if they could have passed physical inspection Joseph Smith would have showed them for to everyone he could have I mean that's just because he thought the Kinder hook plates and yeah and the Abraham pyro particularly would pass physical inspection yeah I mean the Kinder hook plates I know he only had for a real brief time but the book The Papyrus from the Abraham I mean he no issue there and he was translating off them and everything I mean he I think honestly with the book Abraham he probably thought No One's Gonna Be able to translate this so I can do what I need to and then lo and behold you know wasn't a short time after but yeah I think Dan vulgo pointed out I remember listening that once when I was first going through this and he was like yeah he didn't show him to people because it wouldn't pass inspection it's like oh yeah that makes a lot more sense than God has told me I can't show you this but I can show you the Papyrus and I can show you you know all this other stuff it's like no it doesn't make sense and I know the apologist will say well just because you think it doesn't mean God does but again let's you know just use common sense here and it kind of tells you all you need to know yeah next slide all right let's keep going okay so this next one is an interview with Anthony medcafe so in response to a question by Anthony MF Whitmer attempted to clarify the spiritual versus natural viewing of the plates John do you want to go ahead and read this one yeah um quote in regards to my testimony to the visitation of the Angel who declared to us three witnesses that the Book of Mormon is true I have this to say of course we were in the spirit when we had the view uhoh for no man can behold the face of an Angel except in a spiritual view uh unless you're Saul on the road to Damascus or Alma the younger BL blah but but I continue but we were in the body also and everything was in other words they were alive sorry and I'm editorializing and everything was as natural to us as it is at any time okay Martin Harris you say called it quote being Invision so he's acknowledging I think that's important he's acknowledging that Martin diverged I'm sorry I'm probably stealing your thunder Jew no you're fine but he's acknowledging that Martin diverged in his story a as a witness so we have to take that seriously um so um Martin Harris you say called it quote being an A Vision close quote we read in the script we read in the scriptures Cornelius saw in a vision an angel of God he's using the word Vision Daniel saw an angel in a vision also in other places it states they saw an angel in the spirit a bright light enveloped us where we were that filled at noon day and there in a vision or in the spirit we saw and heard just that as it is stated in my testimony in the Book of Mormon I am now past 82 years old and I have a brother JJ Snyder to do my writing for me at my dictation signed David Whitmer okay that's sounding very much like spiritual eyes Vision language to me m Mike what do you think yeah I mean it it is it's it's kind of like saying yeah you know it wasn't physical but it also was real and at this you know it you get to a point where it's like if you want to do that then every other person who's had a vision of all sorts of other religions whether it's a vision of Muhammad or a vision of you know ancient religions you gota be like well then theirs is true too and no one in Mormonism is going to do that because of course you know Mormonism has you know is the one true church and so it just this is where it falls apart and that's why you know I keep saying like to a certain extent once you realize this isn't a physical thing and even if it was you have the Book of Mormon as your evidence but yeah this this is just it's screaming to everybody out there who's paying attention to the wording I guess I would call these weasel words that he's saying yeah this is spiritual I'm just gonna try to frame it differently Julie did you have Insight you wanted to say in your reac well I just I just like this one can you put the SL up again so this one I think is one of the clearest images of the 5% that he was talking about earlier he's like do you believe they 5% or they're 95 but he's putting it into very clear perspective he's like of course we were in the spirit and he's like Martin Harris said he called it being in a vision and then he gives examples of other people being in Vision he's like and he then he says that he he he says this is exactly how I stated it in my testimony of the Book of Mormon like so he's saying that's how it was and so just to me it's a very I don't know how to read it any other way except for that it was in the spirit it was in a vision so I have a and I want to hear get Nemo in on this if he's got something to say but I what what if what about the apologist argument that it's just so late that you can't trust anything that's written what 50 years 60 years after the fact and so it's just so late we have to discredit it purely because it's so late I know we talked about this earlier in this episode but what would y'all say in reaction to that if we want to talk about discounting things that are late then we want to start talking about the 12 years it took Joseph Smith to write about the first Vision that's that's my immediate comeback it's like right okay if you want to start playing the game of if it's after a number of years we can't trust it then we need to start looking hard at all be an apologist and say Nemo what about 60 years that's way worse that's six times worse than the first Vision well it was 20 years before God was a character in the first I mean but also like if you're gonna not trust later sources so many of these interviews come from later sources so just are you going to throw all those out too what about the last one that we just read where he says it wasn't a hallucination should we just throw that out too like I don't know it's hard to play these little games of which ones to accept and which ones not I think it what matters is which ones which ones fit and I think this one shows really well that it fits because he says of course we were in the spirit Martin Harris called it in a vision he gives all those examples and he's like this is just as I testified in my witness in the Book of Mormon and the one thing I'll say Julia kind of mentioned this a second ago the Richard Lloyd Anderson thing is like what is it 90 versus 10 or 95 versus 5% or whatever and you're saying well we gota we can't look at the 5% because all of this is is is is jelling but what you're seeing is that 5% or the 10% is when they're getting pushed back and when they're getting pushed back the story changes when they're getting pushed back they have to make those clarifications and that's why the five to 10% whatever percent it is is so damaging to the rest because the rest of it a lot of times it's kind of like um let's just picture like a church leader who's giving talks to firesides or giving like youth devotionals and they know all the answers and then let's just say they happen to go into like a BBC interview and they're getting push back they look like fools because when you have someone who knows what they're talking about who can push back on their questions Russell M Nelson will look like complete fool because he cannot back up the claims of the church which is why he sits in a big office building and is terrified to go talk to regular people that may sound horrify horrible to like a believing member but let's just be honest here the church leaders are terrified to talk to people who know what they're talking about because that push back will destroy their complete narrative and that's why the 5% when they're getting push back in these witness accounts is so important because it's one of the rare chances we have to see what they do when their story is being questioned in real time and that's why these interviews are so important shout out to John Sweeney uh I believe that's what you were referencing there Mike I I was hypothetically speaking but total hypothetical yeah not pointing that BBC interview at all but yeah that's that's the point I mean those the times when they're getting pushed back is when everybody can pay attention because when they're not getting push back you can push whatever narrative you want and if you're around a bunch of members of the church you're gonna like oh that's so beautiful but when you have someone who knows what they're talking about like hey what about this this and this and all of a sudden you realize they have no answers it's like oh yeah they're they're they're full of it but this is what we're seeing with the witnesses when people are like hey we've got people saying it was spiritual and then all a sudden like well it was it was natural but it was spiritual you start to see those pieces fit like Julia said and and all of a sudden that puzzle makes a lot more sense because now we have those later accounts and yeah later accounts aren't as reliable but they're fitting with the story and it's the rare time when we're getting that push back and that's why it's so important at least to me all right that's good all right what's next Julia so this is a an Zen Zenus H Gurley interviewed David Wimer on January 14th of 1885 so again it's a later source and um do do you guys want to do some can we do a weird thing and you guys do back and forth yeah yeah assign let's just assign Who's Who uh Nemo do you want to be Zenus Zenus okay which one's that one Q I guess you be all the q's and okay yeah I'll be the q's John do you want to be do you want to be David I'll be the a all right do you know that the plates seen with the angel on the table were real metal did you touch them we did not touch nor handle the plates was the table literal wood or was the whole a vision such as often occurs in dreams Etc the table had the appearance of literal wood as shown in the vision in the glory of God did you see the urum and Thim what was it I saw the interpreters in the Holy Vision they looked like white as Stones put in the rim of a bow looked like spectacles only much larger who was the angel that showed the plates to you and calry and have these plates been seen since I do not know as no name was given I have never seen the plates since okay that's interesting what are you pointing to I was just picking these up oh okay the large spectacles all right Julia what did you want us to get from that yeah if you can put up the slide again so so one thing I thought was interesting he says that he did not handle the plates and then he he asks the question did were they literal like was it literal wood and he says it has the appearance of literal wood but it but then he calls it a vision and then and then when once asked about the urum he again calls it a vision and also one thing that I think is really interesting is because in the if you ask any any Mormon there I think they'll tell you that the angel that appeared was Moroni but whenever like David I guess can't remember even though it's a late Source he he doesn't seem to know the angel's name which is also do we do we ever have him saying it was Moroni I don't know does the original statement say it's moronai now I'm trying to even no I don't think so I don't think it has maron's name interesting it's Moroni but also this this kind of makes me wonder and I and I think I bring her up in the eight Witnesses is um Mary Whitmer the the mother David's or uh yeah David wh's mother she says that she said that an angel appeared to her he was just wearing regular clothes and it was in a napsack and she always called that man brother Nephi she didn't call him Angel Moroni and I think she kept that name until she died so like even even the witnesses don't know who who this Angel is so anyway but yeah twice he calls it a vision yeah yeah the I just looked at the original official statement it just says an angel doesn't say morona okay yeah fascinating I I that's true I've just always assumed it was I always found this weird about touching or handling the plates um I always found it weird that you would think the three Witnesses being the most important they would like be the ones that did the most they see the Engravings they you know see the plates as a whole and then you would think they would also handle them but it's interesting and maybe this will come up but it's interesting that the eight Witnesses hefted the place I think that's the word they use they describe hefting them but they don't see them and I think that points back to what Mike was saying earlier about them not passing visual inspection because these guys saw things in a vision but never connected that to their physical sense of touch the eight Witnesses used their physical sense of touch uh but never saw and those two things have been compartmentalized almost as though the you know what I'm trying to say yeah yeah fascinating okay this is good I think this is really good um let's keep going okay so this this next one we're talking about um his published his a pamphlet called an address to belie all believers in Christ so um David Whitmer had had so in this pamphlet so he publishes it in response to many things and he exposes a lot of different things like we talked about like uh the the priesthood restoration not being like retroactively being fitted in and then he had the perfect opportunity in this pamphlet to give his own personal recollection of seeing the gold plates however he doesn't do this instead he copied both witness statements as they stood in the Book of Mormon and this is on page 13 of his pamphlet and in another place he quotes a Richmond Missouri newspaper that states quote there is no doubt that Mr Whitmer who is one of the three Witnesses of the authenticity of the golden plates from which he asserts that Joseph Smith translated The Book of Mormon is firmly convinced of its divine origin and so I just think that's super interesting so he he he never at any point in his own publication he never gives his own account of what happened that day he just copy and paste copy and paste and and also there's this misnomer that keeps cropping up and now I can't unsee it where they talk about him being a witness of the authenticity of the gold plates which he just isn't they never were they were Witnesses perhaps of the existence of such plates but they're not they none of them are witnesses to the correctness of Joseph Smith's translation of what was on this object if that object existed right and I think actually that's one of those things on you see you kind of can't unsee Mike what do you make I we talked about this quite a bit in one of our past episodes Mike what do you make of him not mentioning that really crucial event in his own in his own pamphlet I think he knows better I mean I think that's the whole point if you retell the story now he he knows all anyone's going to focus on are what the differences are so that's my guess as to why um and I think to Nemo's point you know yeah they aren't witnesses to the authenticity of the plates but that's really more of like what we think now that we're no longer Believers in the church I think to them if you see plates in a vision and you believe God is speaking to you saying it's translated correctly then in their minds they are witnesses to the authenticity so I don't think they're lying or anything when they say that but I think it's that matter of perspective like do you believe that they're having Witnesses of these plates that we've talked about um are just non they're non-starters as far as being plausible um but yeah you know I I just think it's like when you go to like a big company today and you ask him for a comment on something like on a statement they make and they're like we stand by your statement I think that's kind of his point is like I'm not going to open myself up to people doing textual analysis to see where I'm changing my story now interesting and Julie you've got a second slide on this right I think so yeah yeah so without expanding on on his experience in this simple pamphlet uh the same pamphlet excuse me David Whitmer proclaimed the following it is recorded in the American Encyclopedia the encyclopedia britanica that I David Whitmer have dened my testimony as one of the three Witnesses of the Divinity of the Book of Mormon and that the other two witnesses Oliver cryy and Martin Harris denied their testimony testimony of that book I will say once more to all mankind that I have never at any any time denied that testimony or any part thereof I also testified to the world that neither Oliver cowry or Martin Harris ever at any time denied their testimony they both died reaffirming the truth of the Divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon I was present at the deathbed of Oliver cry and his last words were Brother David be true to your testimony of the Book of Mormon nice nice invitation so I also like to hear can you put it back up again yeah yeah so people will point to this one they'll say oh on their deathbed they they said they stay true to their testimony the the thing that we're arguing oh keep going keep going I was just gonna say the thing that they're arguing we're not I'm not trying to say that they didn't see the plates I think they did I don't I mean I it's some kind of but I think it was a Visionary State I don't think it was a physical experience you're saying neither of these statements negates the possibility that they still think it was spiritual he can say that the The Book of Mormon is divine Because he believes somehow it was inspired by God freaking even Progressive Mormons that don't believe the book's historical today are willing to say it's divine so that's not a stretch at all yeah saying he's never at any time denied even that statement I've never denied it doesn't mean that he denies it it just means that he's saying he's never denied it so Nei those STS are conclusive right and and also it's it's like he he of course he's never denied it but that doesn't mean he's never changed his testimony right doesn't mean that the story's not evolved over time and that's really what most of the accusations actually are going back earlier to that that one where he kind of pushed back in his pamphlet it's like the guy wasn't saying you denied it the guy was just saying the stories changed right right yeah it's the say this is what Nemo said earlier it's it's it's kind of like a strawman argument because he knows he can't really address the spiritual versus natural so he changes the argument to denying the testimony which is an easy one to to to push back against um you know and I I don't want to jump too much but like this is why the historicity of the Book of Mormon is so important because if the Book of Mormon is not historical like you said there are a lot of progressive members that go well it's not historical but it's still from the Divine um this whole story gets exploded if the Book of Mormon is not a historical record and if this gets exploded you know what I mean like the the that's why the church can never ever change the narrative that The Book of Mormon it's not historical but it's just like a revelation I know they're trying to soften that but to go full out that it's it's just a revelation it's not actually history it would completely undermine all of this and so all of these episodes we're doing would would be meaningless because it would just show how the story just completely crumbles underneath and and that's why they're in such a mess right now all right well I so that's two down we've now done Martin Harris and David Whitmer and this I'm you know as the judge I'm a judge in Israel today uh I'm an ex Morman judge in Israel I think there's problems so far with Martin and David's accounts in terms of them being literal physical uh tangible temporal Witnesses so oh go ahead but in in the case of a court case you were I'm not bringing up all 95% that that uh that say that their witness statement is fine but I like what Nemo said earlier he was talking about I think it was Nemo where like kind of like a court case where they tell this story but then sometimes they give a little bit more detail they kind of change their alibi and so I think that's what these are I'm just showing the these little ones that give a little bit more detail like the story always stays the same but it's a little bit more detail to let you see it in a different kind of context well that yeah and again this is kind of goes back to the kind of maybe some of the offscreen debates that Mike and had Mike and I have had a little bit I'm I'm you know I'm just saying is there enough smoke to where it looks like say there's fire in terms of reasonable doubt that they had physical temporal literal bodily experiences and all I'm saying is so far for Martin Harris and David Whitmer there's enough evidence even that 5% to convince me to to cast serious doubt on the probability that they had physical temporal experiences witnessing the plates in an Angel that's me oh yeah yeah yeah and I wasn't I wasn't arguing against that at all I'm just saying it doesn't matter like I'm just saying his histo like for for the truth claims of the Mormon church this doesn't matter but I do believe that there's way more than you need to show that the the witness statements don't they the what happened doesn't match what Joseph Smith had them signed absolutely right okay all right well that's two down one to one to go in in terms of uh the three Witnesses then we've got some final slides yeah so I think there's just a few on Oliver C I think there's probably like three yeah okay so this is Oliver cryy he so a letter from Oliver cryy was published in the gospel luminary on December 10 of 1929 oh excuse me 1829 that reads as follows you also wish Mr Harris to inform you respecting his seeing this book whether there could not possibly have been some juggling at the bottom of it a few words on that point May suffice it was clear it was a clear open and Beautiful Day Far From Any inhabitants in a remote field at the time we saw the record of which it has been spoken brought and laid before us by an Angel a raid in glorious light who Ascend descended I suppose out of out of the midst of Heaven now this is human juggling judgey yours with much esteem Oliver HP cryy and then he gives the reference now tell us what Mike tell or or Nemo tell us what that word juggling means in in this context Mike you got it I I don't I don't know unless they unless they mean literal juggling I don't know I mean my my understanding is is that juggling was another uh way to describe the treasure digging sort of charlot like behaviors uh whether it's glass looking or peeping for me I think Julie I probably should have just asked you because you're deeper into this than all of us isn't juggling interchangeable with peeping uh glass looking scrying those sorts of words actually I actually don't know but that makes total sense that that's I remember that from the Grant Palmer stuff it's scrying peeping juggling those are all interchangeable terms for sort of the treasure that then John um what's that I said I'll Trust you on that I would have G with equivocating but oh it might be it might be that might be that too and it might I think as a as a Brit you might be closer to the language back then than than we are now no okay all right jul all right so hang on real quick I I looked up the 19 or sorry the 1828 dictionary and it says um the playing tricks by slight of hand are deceiving so that's probably what he means yeah just deceiving that's how I read it before but if it has further meaning about that that's really cool okay Nemo for the win okay so Julia what else should we get from this slide um yeah so I thought it's interesting um he points out a location he says it's a remote field which David Whitmer had said in his the early one from the newspaper in 1831 he's like oh it was a field but it but it was it was a with him alone and Joseph and so I thought Forest why did I think it was a forest because that's the official account that we read earlier it was in it was in a Grove of trees or in the woods so so we're getting different accounts of where it where this happened 29 this is 1829 like the book for is not even published yet right okay yeah so so remote field and then we have that 31 that says the same thing okay um and then the the church history when when it says Woods was written later um yeah so and then he says the angel appeared brought and Lady before our eyes um I guess there really all I wanted to point out from that one yeah the change to trees could be to try and kind of firm it up with the first Vision that that happened in a Grove of trees also and oh that could be you know try to tidy up the imagery interesting okay all right that's one what's number two so on April 13th of 1859 a report was published in the Deseret News from Ruben Miller Ruben gives a report of Oliver C's speech at Council Bluffs Iowa on October 21st of 1848 according to this report Oliver stated I beheld with my eyes and handled with my hands the gold plates from which The Book of Mormon was transcribed that book is true wow yeah so all I wanted wanted to point out here really was that he's handling this and whereas other accounts say that they did not handle them and so I just think that's really inconsistent yeah Nemo why the mainstream LDS belief is that the three Witnesses did not handle it like I was kind of saying that thing earlier the the official account what everyone was taught in seminaries the three Witnesses saw it and the eight Witnesses handled it right interesting I've always been confused about which which did what yeah well there's there's a reason you're confused got right so this one's from Edward Stevenson this is his reminiscence and this was published in the the millennial star in 1886 Mike do you want to read this one yeah it says I have often heard him aliver cryy uh bear a faithful testimony to the restoration of the Gospel by the visitation of an angel in whose presence he stood in company with the Prophet Joseph Smith and David Whitmer he testified that he beheld the plates the leaves being turned over by the angel whose voice he heard and that they were commanded as witnesses to Bear a faithful testimony to the world of the vision that they were favored to behold and that the translation from the plates in the Book of Mormon was accepted of the Lord and that it should go forth to the world and no power on Earth should stop its progress yeah so so the the Angels turning the leaves they hear a voice which I also think is interesting that they they call this they they talk often about their hearing a voice but if the angel standing in front of them that seems like an interesting thing to say because the voice would be coming from the angel I suppose um but also he calls it a vision but then I had this thought as you're reading Mike that Jose us he calls his first Vision a vision um so I guess the apologetic view could be like oh Vision doesn't mean you're not that it's not actually happening but we've seen from these other from David Whitmer and Martin Harris the vision does mean that it's not actually physically there yeah but then like you said in Joseph's case Vision vision is almost shorthand for Heavenly visitation yeah right so there could be a little bit of equivocating in there yeah I'm I'm curious why Oliver's number is 30 in terms of him being interviewed and Martin was 50 and and whitmer's was 70 why is Oliver so relatively infrequent in terms of how many people asked him about what happened and why is his account so consistent when the others are so inconsistent any theories on that Whit seems to me like the sort of guy that likes to run around bragging about this sort of thing that's my take so I we we'll see I put in slides about what happens to Oliver after he leaves the church and that's what I think is reflecting into this is because he he seeks to join the Methodist Church and he has a conversation with the Methodist leaders which I don't know if we should talk about now or wait for that but let's go and yeah let's go so I'll just say of the three Oliver seems the weakest in terms of what evidence we have of contradictory information so far yeah yeah yeah we we've dealt with this throughout these episodes Oliver just does not give us much to work with as far as the translation the witness I mean any of it we just don't have a lot from him the only thing I will say as I'm theorizing is Oliver has the most to gain by sharing a consistent story because he was the main witness for the Book of Mormon that we have now he was like co-president of the church he had the most power he had the most status the most influence until he accused Joseph Smith uh rightly accused Joseph Smith of adultery and was excommunicated but until that point he was like in the Inner Circle for way longer than than Whitmer or Harris were and well wield weld he wielded much more power and probably knew where a lot more of the bodies were buried is that is that safe to say yeah I think so yeah so he would have had the most interest to to stay tight on the story I don't know yeah I mean maybe I it's hard I mean he definitely makes that power play with the priesthood restoration but you know at the same time before that Joseph Smith seems to trust other people more than Oliver so it's it's hard to say okay all right all right Julia well that's good so uh now we're now we've concluded that review and you're gonna what summarize the inconsistencies yes so we're going to talk about the inconsistencies so as far as who's handling the plates that's really inconsistent and each of the scriptures discussing the three Witnesses along with the testimony of the three Witnesses and the history of the church so these are all like official yeah they're all official documents thank you none of the three Witnesses handled the plates however in 1831 David Whitmer testified that he went with Joseph to a field and handled the plates before setting them down again and again in 1848 which we just read Oliver cry said that he too handled the plates yeah and years later in his interview with Zenus H Gurley David Wimer said that they neither touched nor handled the plates interesting yeah okay that's why I was like yeah and then so again another inconsistency is where and or when they saw the plates Joseph Smith says that the three Witnesses all happened on the same day and we have some of that in the other Witnesses statements but Martin Harris said on one occasion that about three days after David and Oliver saw the plates he had his own witness of them after passing into a state of entrancement Joseph Smith says that he and the three Witnesses retrieved to quote a piece of woods convenient to Mr sorry retired oh re oh excuse me the three Witnesses retired to piece of woods convenient to Mr whitmer's house yet both Oliver and cryy excuse me yet both Oliver cryy and David Whitmer said that they were brought to an open field with Joseph Smith and there saw the plates okay so it's so we're not sure on what day and we're not sure where okay those seem like pretty important facts to have straight yeah why would you not the specific details I can understand changing over time particularly as things get later but certainly where it happened and whether it happened on the same day as the others or or or not you would imagine would be fairly consistent over time well and then with with on which uh what I think is interesting is Martin Harris nobody else is with him except for Joseph when he has this vision and he's the one that said it happened three days later but it was a late account but it was him and so I'm wondering like why are we like I guess I would put more weight on his because he was the one that had the experience rather than everyone else yeah um but yeah see this a second hand totally okay okay so another inconsistency is what what did they see the official statement of the three Witnesses says only that they saw the Angel and the plates in a revelation in June of 1829 Joseph Smith listed many items that they would see neither Oliver cowry nor Martin Harris ever described seeing a table where they when they obtained their vision of the plates nor any of these other items David Whitmer describes seeing many items on a table during this experience however only the plates are mentioned in the testimony of three Witnesses and so then I'm just curious why were they not witnesses to these things why would the Angels show them those those other items in the first place why are the other Witnesses silent on these items so like like if if it's all a Divine thing why why aren't they witnesses to those yeah and I remember talking to gret Palmer about this like how if let's just say that Joseph was able to convince people they see things that they're really not seeing how do you get everyone to see the same thing if they're seeing it in their Mind's Eye you have to kind of plant and suggest okay I see uh an angel with gold plates do you see it every Brethren and then they're like oh okay now I see it right you have to prime or prompt them or in some way coach or seed or shape what they're seeing or else everyone's going to say they saw something different right yeah that's exactly it I mean uh Martin Harris claimed he saw the I think the the morning of he claimed he saw an angel in a field and he was told he was called to be one of the witnesses and then he you know also said that you know there's a story which kind of leads into um the Mary Whitmore one where he claims to see a man with a sack on the journey and then they ask they asked Joseph Smith who it is and Joseph's like oh that that's Moroni with the plates I asked God that's what he told me you know and and so then they say oh you know um David Whitmer said I I feel like the plates under the shed and Joseph's like yeah dude that's where I hit him so you have these kind of like little areas where Joseph's kind of preparing them for what you're going to see and he's also kind of getting them kind of in line with like how um they kind of need him to guide through the these unexplained things and so it makes sense that Joseph would be the con the one con the constant between um being there with with uh Martin Harris separately versus you know also being there with with David and Oliver and it just shows how without Joseph Smith these Visions don't happen and that is very consistent throughout the early history of the church with so many other other things as well the treasure digging stuff specifically yeah yeah okay all right very good okay so then I have a whole list I just got all the ones that we just read and I put them on this list so in at least 10 accounts the three Witnesses did not see a physical angel with a physical set of plates but saw only a vision of the angel in the plates and should we run through these again yeah absolutely so these are this is spiritualized Vision stuff versus physical eyes physical stuff right m yeah okay yeah let's read them yeah so Steven Bernett he says it was a vision or imagination and that all hesitated to sign and already W written testimonies Jesse Townson Martin said that he saw the plat with his spiritual eyes and from John a Clark we get that Martin saw the plates with the eye of Faith Anthony mcha with Martin says that he passed into a state of entrancement and saw the plates the Angel and the plates from John H Gilbert we get that Martin saw the plates with his spiritual eye and from Ruben P Harmon Martin Harris saw them with only only in a spiritual vision and from John Murphy David claimed that the angel had no appearance or shape and that the experience was an impression and from Anthony Anthony metf David said of course we were in the spirit when we had the view from Zenus H Gurley we have the David said that they did not handle the plates and it was only in a holy vision and Edward Stevenson said that the Witnesses were favored with a a favored with a vision Julia you left one out wait which one David Whitmer a acknowledges oh yeah Martin Harris saying that he saw him in a vision yeah so and that's that's actually David Whitmer himself not a Second Source right yeah so pamplet he published right yeah that's true in his own pamphlet yeah so so uh 11 accounts where they say that they're in a vision and not it's not an actual experience that they're having yeah yeah that's fascinating okay yeah that's significant that's interesting okay so this is something that this is one of my favorite episodes on Mormon stories it's like the shortest episode that you guys have ever done so on Mor how long is it 20 minutes that wow 20 minutes were you a CF to that John chill Nemo chill out did you need to go like take a run to burn off the rest of your energy back off Nemo so on Mormon stories episode 1388 Trent told recreated a set of plates that match the description of the plates using a material that Joseph Smith would have had access to it took Trent two hours to create his own set of plates yeah John's going to heft his set I got Set uh set by Trent as well that are currently in the kind hands of Peter Bleckley while John's doing his best Bane impression in the background there um these things are cool so when John's gonna them oh my gosh they're so freaking am also I have handled these also and they're sharp and so you cut your fingers on them and I think he said are so freaking heavy right and Trent said that people guess that it's listeners are like what in the fetch are they talking about I'm holding these tin plates that I keep on a shelf they're freaking heavy and and you said they were made how quickly two hours two hours oh gosh ah okay sorry keep going um so I think one thing that Trent said is he said it's um people people will guess how much those weigh and i' and I've carried those before and people will guess 50 to 70 pounds and I think he said if I remember correctly I think he said they were 37 pounds which is like because all 15 kilos for the Europeans listening yeah so most across the board the witnesses except for one of them they'll they'll keep the same kind of weight they're like oh it's between 40 and 50 pounds and so like anyway I could tell you I carried my set of those home from the post office which is only like a 10 15 minute walk um at the at the time and it was heavy right I I was I was I I plan one of these days to do an episode where I get the replica set that are here in the UK and I try and do the threemile run that Joseph Smith claimed to do home and I'm gonna get some people to try and hit me with sticks while I do it three separate groups of attackers yeah yeah just to see how well it goes yeah F all right all we need is one more of us to see these physical plates that Trent made and we have our own three witnesses to Trent's tin plates so that's true so the reason I bring this up though is because he Trent shows the tools that he uses and and they're all ones that Joseph Smith would have had access to and it only took him two hours to do this so but Trent is very he's he doesn't give an opinion either way whether he thinks Joseph really made plates or whether there were plates at all and I think I'm kind of in that boat right now where it's like I don't really know but it it's it would not Shock me if Joseph Smith did make a set of plates it almost seemed go ahead Mike you talk first Mike no I was just gonna say yeah I mean I think that that makes the most sense because you have something under a cloth and if you have people afraid to look at it because think it's either going to kill them or it's going to kill you then you can have something that people could see you rustling you can have carrying around and it gives it that legitimacy and then you have that kind of magical you can't look at them thing which which allows you to have that kind of like prop without needing to have it past visual inspection also doesn't Dan Fogle talk about Joseph's injured thumb that's possibly coming from bending those D rings rings and that and that happens you know Joseph Smith says you know he buries it he uncovers it mem has to go with them but you can't look which is also kind of you know one we covered at the time it's goofy he hides them in a log which is also goofy then when there's these rumors that they're gonna go get it and then and I think it's Emma runs up like she's like Joseph Joseph people are going for the gold plates he's like hang on a second baby he looks in his hat with the rock he's like they're fine and you're just like it that when you read those stories and you look that's why I'm saying like all of this when you take a step back and and I have I've talked to just a few people who are not members of the church and when you tell them this they start laughing because it's so it's so absurd it just is Spirit of understanding Mike yeah it's Mike hold on second baby I got this impression that that sent me yeah but anyway so so the point is so then Joseph has to go and bring the plates home and so as Nemo said Dan vgo's theory is that because he's finishing getting the rings on there and then all of a sudden if you're trying to push those metal rings that is hard it could pop your thumb so when he gets home he uses this idea of being attacked as like that cover for why his hands all messed up yeah I like that theory too I think his thumb was dislocated and he had his dad or somebody push it back yeah something I think his mom talks about it in her in her biography yeah so that's Mormon stories episode 1388 with Trent is it told I think it's told yeah told yeah a good one it's a good one it's a shorty yeah it's a good it's a short one okay so one thing that I think is also important is to talk about what happened to these three Witnesses so with Martin Harris he was excommunicated on in 1837 and later joined the church started by James string for a time he followed William mlen later he followed a self-proclaimed Mormon prophet named gladen Bishop both of these men mlen and Bishop and actually James string did as well they all claimed to have plates athum and to be receiving Revelation from the Lord Martin Harris is one of gladen Bishop's witnesses to his claims and to my knowledge Martin Harris has never recounted uh re uh renounced his testimony of these other plates Martin later rejoined the mainstream Church in 1870 holy smokes I just Googled why was Martin Harris excommunicated Pop Quiz do any of y'all know was it counterfeiting no was was it close now this is just what it says uh you know in an immediate Google search during 1837 a time of intense conflict within the church Martin Harris clashed with Sydney Rigden and refused to join the church sponsor Society he lost too much money issuing paper money so basically he didn't want to join a fake Bank scam is that why Martin Harrison's excommunicated because that that's that's that's as bad as Oliver Cal it's the one good idea he's ever had to go um maybe we shouldn't back money with land this guy lost too much money with us what is he he lost 5,000 or something like that at least know that though that's yeah that's weird I feel like there's yeah we should cover that in the we should cover that in the episode of the leaders being ex communicated and then have you guys done one on the Kirtland Bank no with this with a sand do do that one I have a a point on Martin Harris if I may um which is this idea that he kind of he decided he was just going to go on and join people who are making the same claims as Jose Smith and it really kind of made me think about how there we we always think that the thing we grew up with and the thing that we believe is right and everyone else is wrong and it kind of oh that is a way that a lot of people can think think and so this just shows that he found it equally believable that Joseph Smith had this experience that James Strang was doing the same that um you know mlen was doing the same and that's even happening now here in the UK there is a offshoot of the church by someone that grew up LDS who then decided that they would make the claim that they had had visions and that they received ancient scripture delivered on their doorstep and their dads a witness to that ancient scripture um and that is the story of the ancient inhabitants of the UK and the people that built Stonehenge Etc right I think Steve Pine has done an interview with him or whatever but like the point is that that is a story that can get redone and redone and people will believe it each time and Martin Harris is just an individual that would just keep going with whoever's telling that story next if he were still alive he'd probably join this guy uh in the UK you know that's a story that clearly speaks to him but we laugh and we look at these other people and go oh that was wrong but apply that to your belief in Joseph Smith's story and what makes him any different to Strang mlen our friend uh up in the UK today what makes Joseph Smith any different because Martin Harris is willing to believe all of them yeah yeah I think if the if the 5% didn't exist of of these contradictory um sources or what them calling it a vision just knowing that Martin Harris was a witness saw other people's plates and was Witnesses for those and never denied those that that ruins the credit credibility in my mind of him being a witness for Joseph Smith plates yeah I I remember going to some event where basically the point was what profit or plates did Martin Harris not end up leaving in right like he was super gullible or super um believe you know believe believed anything just had such a supernatural magic worldview that he would believe anything and that's what that's what makes him less credible as a witness to you know for many yeah and then you know I would just invite people to say right well if you don't believe he's credible because he believed mlen as well you're like well what makes mlen wrong and J Smith right I guess is is the point that's that's what it comes down to it's like okay well he was a witness for the this the was it the Shaker in the roller whatever that was is that what it was that he was the witness for um the Shaker plates or whatever and you're just like well okay so why is that why why do we laugh at that but the book of woman's real and and it just it I I I I think he was probably well he doesn't sound like he was the greatest person but you know I think I think with regards to his testimony I think he means well in that regard I just think he also as we could show is just constantly jumping from one thing to the next and and as you said John that that does not lead to someone being a reliable witness and um as I've said with other things in our past episodes um if God really wants everybody to come back to him he sure did a bad job with with picking witnesses that would give credibility to this whole story and and that's what we'll see even more in the eight Witnesses yeah well Mike how can 16 million people be wrong is it only 16 I thought it was 17 there's a billion Catholics yeah I was just to say it's just like that yeah I mean think two I don't know Che okay next slide okay so this next one is what became of David Whitmer uh Neo do you want to read this one absolutely I do right David Whitmer was also excommunicated in 1838 and later became the president of the Church of Christ or the Whit Marite Church David never rejoined the mainstream LDS church in a pamphlet he later published called an address to all believers in Christ the one we've been reading from earlier he stated that Joseph Smith claimed to have been visited by Peter James and John and also John the Baptist oh he claiming that did not happen until much later believing that Joseph had made it up he also did not believe in the two priesthoods mesic and Aron and said that Sydney Rigdon helped Joseph to come up with that idea he believed that Joseph Smith was editing Revelations he also said that if you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon if you believe that God spake to us three Witnesses by his own voice then I tell you that in June 1838 God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens and told me to separate myself from among the latterday saints for as they sought to do unto me so it should be done unto them wow yeah okay I mean yeah how can the church hold him up as a witness when he's also witnessing that God told him to leave the church that Joseph Smith made up the mesic priesthood and the visit from Peter James and John how can the church have it both ways he's connecting it himself he's going if you believe what I said about these things then also you should believe this which is that I'm right and the church has gone astray already and it's yeah all right problem those are two that so far Harris and Whitmer are serious problems yeah and everything Whitmer oh go ahead Julie I'm sorry I was G to say a lot of people tout Whitmer as being oh because he never because he never goes back to the church he they people say oh he had the greatest reason to deny the faith because he didn't have any um connection with it or whatever anything to gain from it but like his just seems like the most problematic to me and I think exactly what we're seeing here is that yes they didn't deny it but what that witness or whatever it is you want to call it means to them and to the truthfulness of the church isn't as clear-cut so apologists can say they never denied it they never recant it they never took it back sure they didn't but one of them is using it to leverage his own offshoot religious movement and another one is willing to do it for other people too so yes they may not deny them but they didn't deny them but but many of them contradicted them and and undermined them right yeah yeah yeah that too yep and and and all of those statements by David Whitmer in that last slide are true he you know the m priesthood is a late invention it was brought over by syney ridon we talked about that in our episode Peter James John it's a completely fabricated story that was put in what 5 years later so if you want to say David Whitmer is a reliable source a reliable witness you then have to go Joseph SMI Joseph Smith made up the mezic priesthood so which way do you want to go you know and that's the thing the apologist want to go he's super reliable on that but the rest were just going to pretend didn't happen but you can't have it both ways yeah and you can still he can still be reliable if you want to believe that he did this was all a Visionary experience then he's 100% reliable yeah if you just see it that way like he says to yeah okay so all right one left I'm Oliver's gonna rescue This I Know It want to read this one sure Oliver calry was very opposed to polygamy and accused oh this is what became of Oliver calry so Oliver calry was very opposed to polygamy and accused Joseph Smith of having quote a dirty nasty filthy Affair close quote with their living made Fanny aler sometime around 1833 to 1835 which now the church acknowledges as being true uh that's me Oliver cry was excommunicated in 1838 for quote persecuting the Brethren close quote and quote falsely insinuating that Joseph was guilty of adultery which he actually was guilty of and for quote not attending meetings uh for quote selling his lands not under the direction of Joseph Smith and many other reasons that all seem manufactured to cover up the fact fact that he was accusing Joseph rightly of adultery later uh Oliver cowry joined the Methodist Church which is weird uh why is he joining that church when it's the one true church and in the times and seasons in 1841 two lines were published that read a book of Mormon not his word because denied by Oliver question mark now let me read that again in the times and seasons in 1841 two lines were published that read quote or Book of Mormon not his word because denied by Oliver I don't understand that Julia so if you go to that here let me just go to the next slide so we'll pause there for a second um so in the times and Seasons John H Johnson P he wrote a poem and I just thought it was really interesting that in this poem that he's writing he's acknowledging or he seems to be acknowledging that Oliver cowry has denied his testimony of the Book of Mormon because as we've just read he was trying to join the Methodist Church and so like I don't know for some reason the members had it in their head or for whatever reason they think that that that Oliver denied his testimony anyway so I just thought that was really interesting that it was even published in the church's newspaper um okay yeah okay um additionally one member of the Mist Church shared a conversation with Oliver in which he said he would be willing to recant his testimony of the Golden Plates um and we didn't mention that reference earlier is that right yeah that's this is a different one this is from the the book the true origin of the book of Mormon it's the the the testimony comes from a man named GJ Kean and he was like he had this conversation with him and he said Oliver or yeah Oliver said I'm I'm the he was a Methodist preacher and he was like would you be willing to deny your testimony if you're going to join and he was like yeah I'd be willing to do that but they didn't make him do it because that's just a really nice thing to do and he was a little bit worried because it would it would Sully his name it would like make him not as trustworthy so he'd like I'd rather not but I will um but they didn't make him do it but anyway I just thought that was an important thing to why didn't that get a a slide for Oliver oh just because it wasn't about the plates specifically but maybe I should have just made it a slide okay okay it wasn't about the plates it says there we can's testimony of the Golden Plates oh I guess that's true um we can go to the link if you want to no that I was just curious um but but I mean we just said it so uh people can reference that if they want to all right the last sentence is Ol Oliver even though he wanted to join the meth Methodist Church or whatever he I think he did for a while but he was eventually re-baptized eventually he re-baptized into the church all right so what do yall make of that 10 years after being excommunicated he comes back comes back four years after Joseph Smith died which I actually think that's interesting I'm trying to work out exactly what my thoughts are about that but he comes back after the death of Joseph Smith because perhaps he feels somewhat guilty that this person he knew has been killed and maybe that stirs up some of his affection for the church or maybe he feels like he can now go back because Joseph's out of the picture maybe PO he feels like maybe polygamy is now stopped because polygamy gets a little bit low key and then they head to Utah and it gets massive again and we don't know what his thoughts on it were out there as far as I know um coup of my thoughts yeah I was gonna say um I think Oliver didn't stayed away for so long because he was waiting for an apology which didn't come and so I I guess after his death he was like well I might as well go back um I don't know the specifics about about later the Utah period if he even went over there yeah sorry I should have given that its own Slide the conversation with with GJ ke it's fine yeah okay that's good all right so what else what else you got Julia so I just have some questions that I want to ask so many of the witnesses had strong or things to point out I guess many of the witnesses had strong motive to never deny their testimony of the Book of Mormon as they continue to associate themselves with factions of the Mormon church and many later rejoining the main Church except and I guess you could say with the exception of Oliver cowry who said by that witness he said he was willing to to deny and by the Mormon publication in the times and Seasons he maybe did deny his testimony being a w and another point I wanted to make is being a witness to a foreign language that you are not knowledgeable about even if it is engraved on Golden Plates does not mean that the translation is correct yes and we've made that point earlier and also never denying your testimony of the Book of Mormon is not the same as never denying that you physically saw an angel with a physical set of gold plates and I feel like that's one of the main things we've been trying to convey never denying your testimony of seeing an angel with Golden Plates does not mean that the Angel and the plates were physically there so that's another point we try to make never denying your testimony does not mean that your testimony is true and I think that's a people don't often understand that that just because you believe something your whole life and you you Proclaim it on your death but that doesn't mean that it's true and and before we jump to Martin uh to to Mark Twain I'll just say one thing like uh there every you know how like Andy Warhol I think it was said everyone has like five minutes of fame like if you think about I I I'll just pick scholar Richard Bushman right um you know obviously Richard Bushman is well respected he's well- loved Harvard trained Columbia Professor great scholar Richard Bush and W will never be more important anywhere else in the world than in a room of of believing Mormons because very very very very few people even scholars in my opinion care about his work on what colonial America compared to the level of passion and care and gratitude that people have to Richard Bushman for writing Ru Stone Rolling and basically for bolstering and affirming his faith in Joseph Smith as a well-respected scholar and so you have to just realize that once somebody has reached the Pinnacle of of their Fame of their importance of their relevance to a large group of people there why why would they ever later on in their lives want to like a balloon pop a pin in that and and have it go away it's going to be the only thing that people really want to remember your name about it's going to be the only thing you're IR relevant about and it's going to be the only way you can get people want to care that you're still around and so in my view just that alone why else would Oliver calry why else would anyone have ever giv an f about Oliver calry Martin Harris or David Whitmer aside from his association with this book so for me that's the biggest uh motivation for them to never deny its Divinity because it's literally the only thing they ever did that really mattered to anyone other than let's just say their immediate family and that's my uh that's my so boox on that yeah I mean think about if you ever watch a interviews with athletes that retire and they'll say what's the thing that you miss the most and they're like either like the the way the enthusiasm in the locker room or the the Roaring of the fans I mean yeah when you walk away you miss being loved you miss being um sought after as being someone something of a celebrity so for sure and um to Julia's last slide you know um just because you say something uh doesn't mean it's true and and the the line that always comes to my mind is from Seinfeld from George castanza where he says it's not a lie if you believe it and I always think of that with this stuff because someone will say like oh so you think the missionaries are just lying to people for two years it's like no they're not they don't think they're lying they believe it it doesn't mean it's true though and so I think that that line always sticks in my head now because just because of that because it it really to most people and and it's true it's not a lie if you really believe it's true it's just that it doesn't mean that it's true yeah yeah all right well let's get to what Mark Twain the sage has to say about all this Julia yeah yeah so in his book roughing it published in 1871 Mark Twain stated and I'm sure you've all heard these before all men have heard of the Mormon bible but a few except the elect have seen it or at least taken the trouble to read it I brought away a copy from Salt Lake the book is a curiosity to me it is such a pretentious Affair and yet so slow and sleepy such an insid mess of inspiration it is chloroform in print if Joseph Smith composed this book The Act was a miracle keeping awake while reading it at any rate or keeping awake while he did it was at any rate okay yeah we've all we I think we've all heard that quote for sure but it's still fun to hear yeah uh Mike do you want to read this next one from the same book yeah it says um the Mormon bible is rather stupid and tiresome to read but there is nothing vicious in its teachings its code of morals is unob it is smouched smouched from the New Testament and no credit given I think that's important he's basically calling out the plagurism of the Bible in the Old Testament um really early right yeah yeah I also think it's interesting that like he says there's nothing vicious in it this is all from the New Testament Joseph wasn't the Book of Mormon doesn't really challenge a lot of beliefs except for that the fact that Joseph Smith is a prophet or that prophets exist now but like Mormonism isn't in the Book of Mormon you don't have the the Three Kingdoms you don't have the two priesthoods there's so much baptisms for the dead Temple marriage Temple marriage we could go on and on yeah it's not it's not in there what does they say about Mark Twain's views on Race though if there's nothing objectional about it but he's read second Nei too right yeah yeah yeah that's true M God murdering thousands of people when Jesus comes again or all the stupid Wars you know there are problems with the Book of Mormon I could tell you just from being a convert I remember reading it when I was taking the missionary discussions I remember thinking like there's really it really does feel like you know it's a sequel to the New Testament in that regard or at least to the Bible as a whole and so it is interesting that Mark Twain is noticing that Joseph Smith is just pulling from the Bible which we talked about in our previous episodes on where Joseph Smith was getting a lot of material from the New Testament and the Old Testament um but to a certain extent if you're reading it you're not really thinking about obviously there is that racism but Mark Twain also lived um maybe in a time where they I don't know I mean I don't know if that was a focus of the Book of Mormon as much but yeah it do it didn't feel to me as a convert like it was anything different and and that's what actually made it feel more comfortable because it just felt like it was kind of like an extension of what we already had in the Bible I think that's why Joseph Smith took the effort to write it in that King James style yeah for sure familiar to people which makes zero sense it's a lot more comforting when you read it though that way and and yeah I mean it makes it makes sense why he wrote it that way because that was the Lang the religious language of the time and obviously as we've discussed in so many episodes prior it makes sense why the book of contained certain themes and certain beliefs that were really exclusive to that time because Joseph Smith was living in it yeah yeah yeah so crazy it's but it's it's really is Bible fanfiction The Book of Mormon is like 19th century Frontier America Bible fanfiction yeah I mean it is it is yeah full stop all right what's the okay so there's another one from Mark Twain Neo do you want to read this one yes please whenever sorry I sound way too Keen um whenever he Joseph Smith found his speech growing too modern which was about every sentence or two he led in a few such scriptural phrases as exceeding saw and it and it came to pass Etc and made things satisfactory again and it came to pass was his pet if he had left that out his Bible would have been only a pamphlet that's good that's fair that's good I just like that one all right Julius bring us home with the final slide okay so even if the witnesses truly saw a set of Golden Plates and like physical gold plates this does not change the fact that during the translation process Joseph Smith did not always use the Golden Plates and they were not always in the same room much of the content for the Book of Mormon is an acronis I.E Jud to Isaiah or The Sermon on the Mount Etc that there were thousands of changes to the text I think the number is somewhere around 5,000 that it is not supported by archaeological or DNA evidence that most of the ideas in the Book of Mormon coincide with material that was available to Joseph Smith at the time and that Scholars today acknowledge that the Book of Mormon is a 19th century text yeah full stop and that's why yall need to go back and watch the other 50 episodes of the LDS discussion series if you haven't yet because we've got 50 51 episodes where we go into deep deep deep discussion about uh problems with the truth claims of of the Mormon church and the Book of Mormon specifically yeah all right well Julia great work thanks and Nemo and Mike it's just so lovely to have y'all uh still around for the lbs discussion Series yeah it's fun and it's nice because Julia did all the hard work and I will point out for the record that you guys all gave me a hard time for saying the witnesses don't matter but Julia's last slide here should be titled this is why the witnesses don't matter I'm just pointing that out my my first thought was Julia wrote this to satisfy Mike and she yeah this is exactly my point that's what I tried to say like this it's so not true that the witnesses don't make a difference as to whether or not the book is true or not is yeah that's just it like that's the whole point and that that's why that's why I've tried to tell you what we talked previously is like to me it's not that they don't matter because the church puts so much on them but they don't matter if you're trying to assess if the church is true or not and I think Julia so perfectly did that for me so thank you that's awesome all right well Mike any any final things about you or your life you want to share with everybody no this was this was nice and and a huge thanks to Julia for for doing all the research on it because I really never tackled the witnesses for the reasons we talked about so it's kind of nice to do this because it really does I think give a pretty I would say convincing um exclamation point on the fact that these the witness testimony in the Book of Mormon does not match what the witnesses say later and I think that is a trend we see with other topics and so it's another area to put to kind of shine a light on is the um I think the the analogy I heard and I've probably mentioned it before but I think it was John Larson he's like you know you're in a room and you the lights are out and you have a flashlight and you you put a flashlight on one brick and you're like oh that brick is completely cracked and then the person next to you is like you don't have to worry about it every other brick is fine and then you shine on a different brick like that Brick's cracked too and and the point is until you turn that flashlight until you turn the light switch on you don't realize that every brick is just about to fall and that really is how Mormon history is and and I think the witnesses is kind of that same thing where the church will tell you like if you're doubting remember the witnesses never Deni their testimony lean on that and it's that same thing where it's like until you turn that light switch on as a member you don't see all of the surrounding problems and I think that these episodes hopefully when people are ready to turn that light switch on can help them kind of see it love it all right Nemo what what closing words do you want to share including pluging your stuff would like to apologize to my fellow countrymen Maven pointed out to me in the chat that I got far too enthusiastic at one point and that's Unbecoming British gentleman so I shall return to my de demeanor um so thank you very much John for having me on here if I assume this is going out after General Conference so if people want to come back after General Conference and watch my coverage I'll be doing a halftime show after every session so if you're not going to catch it live go back and watch it it give you a really good recap of what's happened I'm going to do some even shorter recap videos as well so um I'm going to be the home of summarizing conference although Julia also does an excellent job so you know I would definitely go and check out her work as well and Nemo if you want to make a little cheddar cheese we can if you can just do like a one or two hour summary of all the things we know need to know about conference that we missed I'd have you back on morm stories next week you do a panel like we did last time okay if you're if you're down for it I'm down for it yeah excellent all right uh Julia and of course subscribe to Neo the Mormon on YouTube uh on Instagram Tik Tok follow him there as well Julia final words um um I don't know I feel like those slides did a really good job like I don't like I don't have a problem with the witnesses having seen the plates I don't think they were physical and even if they were physical if Joseph made them up or the the like I just showed the The Book of Mormon is is a 19th century text and there are so many problems in the text already so like Mike said this this doesn't really matter very much well I think you did a great job Julia check out Julia analyzing Mormonism on Tik Tok and Instagram uh thank you Julia so much for doing it and I'll just say I get the final word because I'm uh you know it's my podcast um no I uh I think it totally matters because um for in my view the Witnesses are one of the main things the church holds up as a as a witness as evidence as proof that the Book of Mormon is legitimate so if if we if people are aware of the holes in the problems with their story that um you know that uh undermines a very important pillar that the church wants uh to use to hold up the Book of Mormon and again for the church The Book of Mormon is the Keystone of the religion so if the witnesses to the Book of Mormon don't hold up then that's another reason why the Book of Mormon Falls and uh and then that allows people to make decisions about what to do with their lives if the Book of Mormon isn't what it claims to be so for me that's why I insisted on this episode being done and we're not even done because we haven't covered the eight Witnesses yet so believe it or not we just went through all this with the three Witnesses Julie is the eight Witnesses still interesting or is it kind of just repetitive and dumb oh I like it okay all right well Julia you're smart so if Julia likes it come back for the eight Witnesses because we've got even more coming to you on the LDS discussion series all right uh I'll close thanks everyone for joining us today you guys are awesome and uh I'll just remind everyone uh just to end that this LDS discussion Series this is like the 52nd episode you'll want to check them all out in order you can do that on Spotify you can do that on iTunes wherever you get your podcast check out LDS discussions you can read the essays at LDS discussions. and uh you can go to YouTube and watch these episodes um on the LDS discussions playlist which you'll find on the YouTube homepage for morma Stories podcast um Spotify we also upload the videos so you can watch them on Spotify as well please subscribe to Stories podcast please like these episodes please share them and most importantly we can do this without that's your donations we pay everyone on this panel and everyone who is in production and it costs money so if you value this content if you want to see it continue uh please please please become a monthly donor at Mormon stories gmail.com click on the Donate button sign up for whatever donate ations you can afford and thank you to everyone who donates to Mormon stories and the open stories Foundation we could not do this without you as well as thanks for the super Chats on YouTube and venmo donations Etc be good to each other be kind to each other and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon stories podcast take care everybody