Episode 53

Are the Eight Witnesses to the Book of Mormon Credible?

Original Air Date: 2024-05-09 • Duration: 2h 8m

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Based on the transcript provided, here is a detailed summary of the video "How Credible Were the Book of Mormon's 8 Witnesses? | LDS Discussions 53 | Ep. 1895" from the Mormon Stories Podcast.

Overview and Context

Hosted by John Dehlin, the episode features researcher Julia Sanders, Mike from LDS Discussions, and Nemo the Mormon. It is part of a larger series analyzing Mormon truth claims, specifically focusing on the credibility of the "Eight Witnesses" to the Book of Mormon 1. The discussion follows a previous episode regarding the Three Witnesses. Mike argues that the Eight Witnesses are historically significant because they offer insight into how Joseph Smith operated; specifically, the church presents this event as a physical, "matter-of-fact" viewing of the plates, distinguishing it from the supernatural, visionary experience of the Three Witnesses 2-4.

The "Matter of Fact" vs. Supernatural Claim

A central theme of the discussion is the traditional church narrative—supported by historian B.H. Roberts—that the Eight Witnesses saw the plates in a plain, physical manner without angels or glory 4.

  • The Critique: The panel argues that if the plates were a physical reality capable of passing inspection, Joseph Smith would have shown them to credible, objective outsiders (such as governors or reporters) rather than limiting the viewings to family members who already believed in his claims 5.
  • The Witnesses: The Eight Witnesses consisted entirely of members of the Smith and Whitmer families (and Hiram Page, a Whitmer in-law) 6. The panel suggests this insularity points to a potential conspiracy or undue influence within a closed group 7.

    • Analysis of the Official Testimony

    The group dissects the printed "Testimony of Eight Witnesses" found in the Book of Mormon:

  • Lack of Specifics: The statement lacks a date, time, or specific location 8.
  • Authorship: The document was written by Oliver Cowdery, not the witnesses themselves. It is a collective statement signed by individuals, which the panel argues carries less weight than individual affidavits 9, 10.
  • Ambiguity: The text states they saw the plates and "as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands" 6. While apologists sometimes argue "leaves" refers to the manuscript, the panel contends the context clearly implies the metal plates, though the wording remains somewhat ambiguous 11, 12.
  • Mark Twain's Critique: The hosts quote Mark Twain, who satirized the testimony, noting he would not feel more satisfied "if the entire Whitmer family had testified," highlighting the lack of independent corroboration 9.

    • Contradictory Accounts and Historical Issues

    Julia Sanders presents various historical accounts that contradict or complicate the official narrative:

  • Martin Harris and Stephen Burnett (1838): A letter from Stephen Burnett claims Martin Harris stated that the Eight Witnesses "never saw the plates with his natural eyes" but only in vision, and that they were "persuaded" to sign the statement 13, 14.
  • Thomas Ford’s Account: Former Illinois Governor Thomas Ford wrote that Joseph Smith purportedly gathered the witnesses, showed them an empty box, and declared that their inability to see the plates was due to a lack of faith. After two hours of prayer and fasting, they were "persuaded" they saw the plates spiritually 15, 16.
  • John Whitmer’s Inconsistencies:
  • In 1839, John Whitmer mentioned the plates were shown by "supernatural power," contradicting the "matter-of-fact" narrative 17.
  • In a later interview (1878), he claimed the witnesses did not see the plates all at once, but in two separate groups of four 18.
  • Joseph Smith Senior’s Description: In an interview, Joseph Smith’s father described the plates differently than others, claiming they weighed 30 pounds (others said 40–60), were held by different rings, and contained "masonic implements" and spectacles under the lid 19, 20.
  • Hiram Page’s Seer Stone: The panel discusses how Hiram Page possessed his own "seer stone" and produced revelations for the church. Joseph Smith eventually claimed these were from the devil to reassert his sole authority, which illustrates the "magical worldview" shared by the witnesses 21, 22.

    • Physical Impossibilities

    The hosts discuss the physical logistics of the gold plates:

  • Weight vs. Content: The panel notes that gold plates with the dimensions described (approx. 6x8 inches) would be incredibly heavy, yet they needed to be light enough to be "hefted." However, to contain the word count of the Book of Mormon, the plates would need to be extremely thin, making them too fragile to be engraved on both sides or to "rustle" like pages, as some witnesses claimed 23, 24.
  • Prop Plates: Mike and the hosts speculate that Joseph Smith likely created a prop set of plates (perhaps tin or copper) to provide a physical object for the witnesses to "heft" while covered, or viewed in dim lighting, while relying on their "spiritual eyes" or "magical worldview" to fill in the details of the ancient engravings 25-27.

    • Conclusion

    The participants conclude that the Eight Witnesses do not provide the objective, physical evidence the church claims.

  • Theories: They weigh three possibilities: (1) Genuine plates (rejected as impossible), (2) Prop plates combined with a controlled environment, or (3) A purely visionary experience 28.
  • Consensus: The group generally agrees on a mix of options 2 and 3—that Joseph likely used a physical prop to induce a spiritual or visionary experience among a group of people already primed to believe him 27, 29.
  • Significance: Mike asserts that if the plates were a genuine physical reality, God or Joseph Smith would have utilized credible, non-biased witnesses to prove their existence to the world. The reliance on family members and the refusal to show the plates to skeptics suggests Joseph knew they could not pass physical inspection 30, 31.

    • Episode Info

    Guests: Mike (LDS Discussions), Nemo the Mormon, Julia (Analyzing Mormonism)

    Related Article: LDS Discussions