Episode 54

Additional Witnesses of the Book of Mormon Gold Plates

Original Air Date: 2024-08-20

WitnessesGold PlatesMary Whitmer

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This detailed summary covers the episode "Additional 'Witnesses' of the Book of Mormon Gold Plates | LDS Discussions Ep. 54," hosted by John Dehlin with guests Mike (LDS Discussions), Nemo the Mormon, and Julia Sanders. This video is part three of a four-part series examining the witnesses to the Book of Mormon, specifically focusing on the "unofficial" witnesses beyond the canonical Three and Eight 1, 2.

Overview

The panel examines seven individuals who claimed to have seen, handled, or had visions of the golden plates: Josiah Stowell, Emma Smith, Mary Whitmer, Lucy Mack Smith, William Smith, Katharine Smith, and Lucy Harris 3. The discussion highlights significant inconsistencies in their accounts, the problematic nature of late-recorded testimonies, and contradictions regarding the physical properties of the plates.

The Witnesses and Their Accounts

  • Josiah Stowell: A treasure digger and employer of Joseph Smith, Stowell testified in an 1832 court trial that he saw a corner of the plates, describing them as resembling a "stone of a greenish cast" 4, 5. He claimed the object was one foot square, which contradicts other descriptions of the plates being 6x8 inches 5, 6. In a letter from Martha Campbell to Joseph Smith, Stowell is described as the "very first person to ever see the plates," claiming he saw them when Joseph first brought them home 7. The panel notes the contradiction that Joseph Smith often claimed he would be destroyed if he showed the plates to anyone, yet Stowell saw them without consequence 6, 8.
  • Emma Smith: Joseph’s wife stated in an 1879 interview that the plates lay on a table wrapped in a linen tablecloth 9, 10. She claimed to have felt them, tracing their outline, and noted they seemed pliable "like thick paper" and made a metallic "rustling" sound when thumbed 10. The panel argues that metal plates would not be pliable or rustle like paper 11. Emma also claimed Joseph could not write a "coherent and well-worded letter" at the time, which the panel refutes by citing existing letters from Joseph that demonstrate his literacy, suggesting Emma was trying to protect his prophetic legacy 10-12.
  • Mary Whitmer: The mother of the Whitmer family, Mary is often cited as the only woman to see the plates in an open vision. According to accounts first published in 1878 (nearly 50 years after the event), she was stressed by the extra labor of hosting Joseph and his scribes 13. An "old man" (referred to as "Brother Nephi" or Moroni) showed her the plates in the barn to comfort her 13, 14. The panel notes the description of the angel—a heavy-set old man in a brown suit—contradicts standard descriptions of the Angel Moroni 15, 16. The story is criticized for being a very late, secondhand account that grew in detail over time 17, 18.
  • Lucy Mack Smith: Joseph’s mother allegedly handled the breastplate and the Urim and Thummim 19. However, the panel highlights an 1842 account by Henry Caswell, who interviewed her. Caswell reported she claimed to have seen the plates, but he concluded she was likely part of the deception rather than a dupe 20. The Church’s website lists her as having "lifted" the plates rather than seeing them 21.
  • William Smith: Joseph's brother claimed to have handled the plates inside a pillowcase 22, 23. He described them as a mixture of gold and copper and noted they were heavy 24. William stated the family did not look at the plates because they were "exceeding anxious" to obey God's command, contradicting natural curiosity 25. His accounts also appear very late, in the 1880s 23.
  • Katharine Smith (Salisbury): Joseph's sister reportedly hefted the plates when Joseph ran into the house panting after fighting off attackers 26. The accounts of her experience come primarily from her grandson, Herbert Salisbury, in 1945 and 1954—over 100 years after the events 27, 28. The stories contain inconsistencies, such as whether she took the plates from Joseph on the couch or found them while dusting 29.
  • Lucy Harris: Martin Harris's wife, typically viewed as an antagonist for losing the 116 pages, is recorded in Lucy Mack Smith's autobiography as having a dream where a personage showed her the plates 30. Following this vision, she donated $28 to Joseph 31. The panel notes the Church rarely uses her as a witness because she challenged Joseph’s credibility 32.

    • Key Themes and Analysis

  • Timeline and Reliability: The panel emphasizes that many of these accounts were recorded decades after the fact (late reminiscences), allowing for memory distortion and embellishment 28, 33. For example, Katharine Smith’s story appears 118 years after the event 28.
  • Physical Impossibilities: Descriptions of the plates rippling or rustling like paper contradict the physical properties of metal, whether gold or tin 34, 35.
  • "Hefting" vs. Seeing: Most of these witnesses only "hefted" the plates through a cloth or pillowcase, which suggests Joseph may have used a prop to satisfy physical inspection without allowing visual verification 35, 36.
  • Orson Pratt’s Addition: The panel mentions a unique detail from Orson Pratt, who claimed the engravings were stained with a black hard stain to make them legible, a detail not found in other accounts 37.
  • Church Strategy: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints often groups these "other" witnesses with the official eleven to create a "cloud of witnesses" (citing 17 total people) to bolster credibility 38. However, the Church presents these accounts in a broad, macro view to avoid the specific contradictions and credibility issues that arise when examining the details individually 39.

    • Conclusion

    The participants conclude that while the Church uses these witnesses to support its truth claims, a closer look reveals a cast of characters with "magical worldviews" whose stories often contradict one another 40, 41. Julia Sanders compares the Church's presentation of these witnesses to the show "Is It Cake?"—the accounts look convincing from a distance, but upon closer inspection, the illusion falls apart 41. The varied and contradictory nature of these testimonies allows believers to "choose your own adventure," picking the details that support their faith while ignoring those that do not 42.

    Episode Info

    Guests: Mike (LDS Discussions), Nemo the Mormon, Julia (Analyzing Mormonism)

    Related Article: LDS Discussions