Episode 55

Witnesses Roundup & Finale

Original Air Date: 2024-06-07

WitnessesBook of MormonApostasy

Video

Watch on YouTube

This video serves as the fourth installment in a series on the "LDS Discussions" podcast, hosted by John Dehlin with contributors Mike, Julia, and Nemo the Mormon. The episode focuses on what happened to the "Eight Witnesses" and the "other witnesses" (such as Mary Whitmer and Emma Smith) after their initial testimony regarding the Gold Plates. The discussion aims to objectively analyze the credibility of these witnesses and the historical context surrounding their claims 1, 2.

Here is a detailed summary of the video’s key arguments and findings:

  • 1. The Fate and Loyalty of the Witnesses

    • The hosts challenge the common LDS apologetic claim that the witnesses' reliability is proven because they "never denied their testimonies." They argue this is a low bar because the witnesses' lives were fraught with excommunication and apostasy from the main LDS body.

  • The Eight Witnesses: Of the eight, five died either before or shortly after Joseph Smith (1844). Of the survivors, John and Jacob Whitmer were excommunicated, and Hiram Page left the church 3.
  • Following Successors: The hosts highlight that retaining a belief in the Book of Mormon did not equate to following Brigham Young or the Utah church. For example, John Whitmer was excommunicated but refused to hand over church records, eventually following James Strang 4, 5.
  • 2. The Credibility Problem: Following Other "Prophets"

    • A major portion of the video is dedicated to the fact that many witnesses followed James Strang, a rival successor to Joseph Smith who also claimed to find metal plates and translate them.

  • Strang’s Witnesses: James Strang produced 11 witnesses for his own set of plates (the Voree plates). His movement attracted significant figures from Joseph Smith's inner circle 6, 7.
  • Defections to Strang: The entire surviving Whitmer family (John, Jacob, and David), Hiram Page, Martin Harris, and notably Joseph Smith’s own mother (Lucy Mack Smith) and sisters followed Strang for a time 7, 8.
  • Implications: The hosts argue that if the witnesses are credible because they believed Joseph Smith, they must also be credible regarding James Strang. Their willingness to follow Strang suggests they could not distinguish between Joseph's claims and Strang's similar—but competing—claims 9, 10. This demonstrates a lack of spiritual discernment rather than a confirmation of truth 11.
  • 3. "Witnesses" for Other Movements

    • The video details how common it was for charismatic leaders to produce witnesses and artifacts during this era.

  • Gladden Bishop: Another claimant, Francis Gladden Bishop, asserted he had the Gold Plates, the Urim and Thummim, and other artifacts. Martin Harris followed him for a time, and Bishop even designated Martin Harris as one of his witnesses 12, 13.
  • Inconsistency: The hosts point out that Martin Harris followed multiple leaders (Smith, Strang, Bishop), jokingly suggesting he would follow anyone. This behavior undermines his reliability as a witness for the LDS church 14, 15.

    • 4. Inconsistencies in the Accounts

    The panel discusses discrepancies regarding the physical reality of the plates.

  • Vision vs. Physicality: The hosts present a list of 13 historical accounts suggesting the witnesses viewed the plates through a "spiritual eye" or in a vision, rather than physically handling them. For example, Martin Harris allegedly stated he saw the plates with "spiritual eyes," and David Whitmer described the experience as being "in the spirit" 16, 17.
  • Varying Descriptions: Joseph Smith Senior described the plates differently than others (different dimensions), and Josiah Stowell claimed they had a "greenish cast," while Martin Harris compared them to "plates of tin" (which are lighter than gold) 18, 19.
  • Signatures: There is historical evidence suggesting the witnesses did not sign the testimony document themselves; rather, Oliver Cowdery may have signed for them 20-22.

    • 5. The "Milieu" of Buried Plates

    The video argues that Joseph Smith’s story was not unique but a product of his 19th-century environment.

  • Mound Builder Myth: It was a common belief (the "Mound Builder myth") that ancient inhabitants of America wrote on metal plates and buried them. The hosts cite contemporary sources, such as Ethan Smith's View of the Hebrews and accounts of farmers finding copper plates, to show this idea was widespread 23-26.
  • Apocrypha: The concept of "brass plates" appears in the Apocrypha (First Maccabees), which was present in the Smith family Bible 27.

    • 6. Physical Plausibility and Fabrication

    Finally, the discussion turns to the physical impossibility of Joseph Smith’s narrative regarding the plates.

  • The "Running" Story: The hosts critique the story of Joseph Smith running three miles with the plates while being attacked by three men, knocking them down, and dislocating his thumb. They argue this is physically impossible given the weight of gold (approx. 50+ lbs) and the awkwardness of the object 28-32.
  • Ease of Fabrication: A clip is shown of a modern blacksmith, Trent Toone, creating a replica set of plates using 19th-century tools in only two hours. This suggests it would have been very easy for Joseph Smith to create a prop to deceive the witnesses 33-35.

    • Analogy

    To summarize the central argument regarding the witnesses' credibility, the situation is comparable to a star witness in a criminal trial. If a witness testifies confidently that they saw the defendant commit a crime, but it is later revealed that this same witness also testified that three other different suspects committed the same crime, and that they only saw the crime happen with their "spiritual eyes" rather than physically, the jury would likely disregard their testimony entirely. The hosts argue that the Book of Mormon witnesses suffer from this exact credibility crisis.

    Episode Info

    Guests: Mike (LDS Discussions), Nemo the Mormon, Julia (Analyzing Mormonism)

    Related Article: LDS Discussions