How Modern Mormons Still Defend Racist Scripture
Original Air Date: 2024-08-02 • Duration: 1h 41m
Based on the provided transcript excerpts, here is a detailed summary of the video "Book of Mormon Racism & Skin of Blackness w/ Neil & Jasmin Rappleye | LDS Discussions 56 | Ep. 1924" from the Mormon Stories Podcast.
Overview and Purpose
Host John Dehlin, along with guests Julia Sanders, Gerardo, and Nemo the Mormon, discuss the Book of Mormon’s teachings on the "skin of blackness" and the "curse" placed upon the Lamanites 1, 2. The episode is part of the "LDS Discussions" series, which aims to objectively analyze truth claims of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 1. The primary focus of this episode is to contrast the historical teachings of Joseph Smith and early church leaders—who viewed the skin curse literally—against modern apologetic arguments that attempt to redefine these terms to appear less racist 1, 3, 4.
Critique of Modern Apologetics
The hosts critique the work of Book of Mormon Central (specifically "Scripture Central" and "Scripture Plus"), led by influencers Jasmine and Neil Rappleye 5, 6.
The hosts also discuss a secret Facebook group called "The Cavalry," where apologists (including the Rappleyes) reportedly script answers for serving missionaries to copy and paste to investigators who have difficult questions about doctrine or history 14, 15.
Historical Evidence: Joseph Smith’s Era (1830–1844)
Julia Sanders presents historical evidence demonstrating that Joseph Smith and early Saints interpreted the Lamanite identity and the skin curse literally, not metaphorically 16, 17.
Conclusion
The episode concludes that, contrary to modern apologetic claims, there was no confusion among early church leaders regarding the "skin of blackness" 17. They believed all Native Americans were Lamanites, that their dark skin was a curse for wickedness, and that righteousness (or intermarriage with whites) would turn their skin white 17. The hosts argue that reinterpreting these scriptures today undermines the prophetic authority of 150 years of church leaders 35. The episode ends with a preview of Part 2, which will cover the presidency of Brigham Young and the shift toward a more hostile, colonizer mindset toward Native Americans 36, 37.
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Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host John Dyn. It is July 29th, 2024. And today we're going to be covering the Book of Mormon and its teachings around the skin of blackness or the curse that according to the Book of Mormon, God gave to the Lamemonites uh because he deemed them to be wicked and filthome and dark and loathsome and he wanted them to appear uh disgusting to the white Nephites and so he gave them dark skin. That's what the Book of Mormon says. Nowadays, in 2024, Mormon apologists are trying to change the narrative and claim that when the Book of Mormon says skin of blackness, what it really meant was something uh else like tattoos or furs or something weird like that. This is an LDS discussions edition of Mormon Stories podcast, meaning that it's part of an ongoing series of discussions on Mormon Stories to discuss LDS church truth claims as neutrally and as dispassionately and as objectively as possible. And while we don't have the amazing Mike with us because it's summer, we have the amazing Julia with us. Julia Sanders. Hey, Julia. Hi. Julie, you did the research for this episode, is correct? Yes, I did. Yeah. And you do great work. And then Herardo's kind of uh partnered with you on this to help make this possible. Yep. And then to maintain the LDS discussions continuity, we've got Nemo the Mormon from the UK joining us. Hey Nemo. Hi. How's life? How's international global superstardom since you flew down to Texas to insert your your British self in a in a in a wholly Texas uh residential issue that you had no business inserting yourself into? A lot of Texans were not happy, but then a lot of Texans were happy. So, you can't win them all. I'm a Texan and I'm very happy. So, I mean, I'm a Brit. I'm used to just going and inserting myself into foreign issues that really have nothing to do with me. It's kind of comes with the territory. Just global that that uh imperialism dies hard. Is that what you're saying? Yeah. Okay. That's what it's all about. All right, Julia, I I gave an intro. Do you want to give your own intro now and tell us what we're going to be doing today? And Herardo, you can jump in as much as you want because you guys are I just wanted to make your corrections. This was mostly you, Julia. She gets Well, as far as these slides, you help with some of the other ones, too. But yeah, so yeah. So, so there's been a lot of apologists that have been trying to recreate what it means, what the skin of blackness means, like John explained. And so the we're just I'm just showing that that's not the case. Like you can to to change the meaning of this is to change history in in a lot of ways. And so and that's that's wrong. It it uh it puts down the the experiences that these people actually had. And so that's one of the reasons why I feel like it's important to share this actual history with you guys. Yeah. And um and I should note this is going to be a multi-part episode. Is that correct, Julia? Yes, at least two parts just so just because it's there's a lot of history to talk about and a lot of things a lot of um ways that the Lamemonites played into the Mormon history. And so yeah, we're this will be two parts at least. So what are we covering today and then what are we covering in the next one or two episodes later? So today I think we're covering through um Joseph Smith and Brigham Y. Young I think up till the 1900s. Is that correct? What was about the skin of blackness teaching in the Book of Mormon in the 19th century basically? Yeah. Yes. As the foundation for then talking about how the church started changing it from the early 20th century until now. Is that right? Yes. And then how the apologists are um trying to reframe the skin of blackness football. Move the football as we like to say in move the goalpost or something like that. Yes. Very good. Julia out outdoes a sports bet. I don't know sports. I love it. All right, Julia, take it away. Yeah. So, at the beginning, we are going to talk about the uh the apologetics around it. So, we're going to talk about actually, can you guys explain um so so a lot of these videos are taken from um Book of Mormon Central, specifically a creator named Jasmine? I don't know how to say her last name. Listen. Yeah. Okay. And so do you does does anyone want to talk about her specifically? And well, I'll start. I'll start. I've been advised not to by my lawyer. No, I'll start. Um yeah, so basically this is something that I feel passionately about. So um you know, when Mormon church members, you know, I also I'll back all the way up. So Mormon Stories podcast, one of its main goals is informed consent. It's to make sure that Mormon church members and people investigating the Mormon church know the truth about the church when they uh you know are going to be dedicating so much of their lives to it. And so historically on Mormon stories when bad apologists give bad explanations that are deceitful or harmful, dishonest, misleading, we we like to have there be transparency or accountability with that. And in the past, we've gone after, you know, people like Lou Lum Miggley or like Daniel Peterson or, you know, many others. Um, not to attack them personally, but to display the dishonesty or the harm of their arguments. And so, you know, as Daniel Peterson and people like him and his ilk, Jack Welch and others have been sort of mothballled and put in the Museum of Toxic Mormon apologetics in the past. New um new apologists have emerged as the new crop. And uh two specific kind of millennial apologists that I think are worth mentioning are Neil and Jasmine. I believe Rapali is how you pronounce their last names. I really don't know them. I've never met them and I'm not trying to attack them per se, but what we want to do is attack or at least critique their arguments. And so, um, yeah, if you just want to show, uh, we've got a couple, um, let's just say profiles. Book of Mormon Central, uh, is an organization that, as I understand it, receives millions of dollars of funding a year to defend the Book of Mormon. And, uh, Jasmine, it says Himenez here. And what I'm guessing is that Himenez is her maiden name and that since then uh yeah, she's now Jasmine Himenez Rapali. So she's sort of the voice um she's sort of the voice in the face of a lot of these bad damaging I believe dishonest apologetics. You can find her on uh Tik Tok and Instagram and and YouTube offering as sort of the voice in the face uh these really bad horrible apologetic arguments. But um you know we don't know how much she is actually the brain of these really awful bad apologetics. Um we think that also her husband Neil might be involved as well. So this is a photo of Neil Rapali. He's also with Book of Mormon Central and uh we you know our understanding is that he does a lot of the writing and the research for these bad toxic apologetics and so can I add something John? Yeah. Um you you talk about bad damaging toxic dangerous apologetics whatnot. I just want to add silly just just to keep it a little bit light as well. Sometimes these arguments are just silly. They're just a bit ridiculous, a little bit unbelievable even to those who have who are invested in having a sort of supernatural view of the world uh or a deified view of the world where gods can perform miracles. Even in that setting, some of these arguments are just silly because you would have to ask yourself why why would that be the case? It would make no sense. Um so just to keep that light, I think it's important to recognize sometimes they're just a bit dafted. Yeah. Like instead of saying skin of blackness means skin of blackness, dark skin, maybe it means tattoos or or animal purs. Yeah. Or paint. So yeah. So anyway, I don't want to hammer them like we're trying to attack them, but I think these people should be known by name because they're they're influencing a lot of things. And I think that might take us to uh the next slide which maybe we'll have Herardo uh talk about. Herardo, can you give us a little background on this on this episode uh that just came out on Mormonish? Yeah. So this this is an episode that uh like you said, John, came out just recently a couple days ago on Mormonish. Um and it is about uh this group of a Facebook group called um the Cal Calvary let me see the cavalry and apparently some even uh pe uh members of the group have a hard time remembering the spelling exactly. uh we we see it spelled differently in in a few places, but um but basically what this is is a group of LDS um apologists and some of them that self-proclaimed scholars um and basically what they have done is create this uh big Facebook group where they will secretly have invite missionaries uh currently serving missionaries to join the group and have The missionaries ask questions about doctrine or history or things that their investigators are having doubts or questions about and then these so-called scholars would come in and basically write answers for them. Sometimes they will uh the missionary will come and say can you write me a copy paste answer to this investigator's question and then the scholar uh or supposed scholar would write will write the response and then the missionary will just do a copy paste on the on on their conversations with their investigator and sometimes they will also have um the the scholar in discuss in zoom discussions with the their invest investigators and this kind of become a little bit of Bible bashing and um uh you know like that that kind of apologetics. Uh there's there they have a YouTube channel called missionary discussions where they post uh some of this um uh some of some of this uh investigator discussions that they have uh with with this scholar and then the missionaries will come go in the background and then the scholar would like interact with either the investigator or with even sometimes the investigator will bring bring their pastor and then there will be like fighting about history and doctrine. So anyway, uh that's what this this group is. And um what's kind of crazy about it is that some of Mormonism's most recognized scholars and you know um like Don Bradley and others have been or are part of this group and they will write answers for the missionaries. Also, people that work for Book of Mormon Central or um or you know, Scripture Central will will also be part of this group. And this is all being done behind the backs of um of the mission president and probably the missionary uh department. And because the missionaries just keep it secret and keep it to themselves, they don't they don't tell their leaders about these groups. They're discouraged to tell leaders. Uh they're also threatened that if they disagree with the group moderators uh they will be um turned uh they will be like the the the ad the moderators or the admins of the group will turn them in into their um their uh mission presidents. So then they have the risk of go uh being sent back home for breaking the rules and being part of this group. So um yeah it's it's kind of a big deal. So, if you have questions or or want to learn more about um this group, you should go watch this episode 180 from Mormonish. Yes, we're showing the episode here on the screen. Episode 180. Rebecca, Bibliotecha and Landon do great work. RFM helped them with this. So, we'll we may be covering that on Mormon Stories a little bit later. Can you go ahead and show the next slide, Julia? Sure. Um and and Herardo, what's this a screenshot of? Uh so this is a screenshot from the an insider from the that that was given to us by an insider from the cavalry. Uh oh, by the way, to get access to this private Facebook group, you have to show that you're a current serving missionary um to be able to get in. But anyway, so this is um someone uh uh a moderator making an announcement and they say a big welcome to Neil. uh say say the his last name Rapali as well. We're collecting scholars like Infinity Stones around here. I'll let Neil introduce himself. Uh and then this is so this is kind of you know showing that people influential people in Book of Mormon Central or um other organizations like that are um are being part of this group. Can we look at that comment at the bottom? Someone's like, "Oh, is it Christmas?" And the response is don't get so excited. Even Neil Rapali knows he's totally overrated. So, you know, he's getting roasted even in that group. Yeah. And I'll just make I'll just remake the point like if an investigator is reading the Book of Mormon and comes across Skin of Blackness and says, "That's super racist, why would I want to believe the Book of Mormon if it says something super racist?" Or if a Mormon high school student comes across and is reading the Book of Mormon and reads the skin of blackness part and says, "That's super racist." But then they stumble on a Tik Tok by Neil or Jasmine or the cavalry comes in and then provides dishonest uh you know bad scholarly disingenuous answers for the investigator and that leads to influencing them to convert to the church or to be committed to the church or to go on a mission in a way that's deceitful or deceptive. Uh then I think that's a bad thing. Now, if somebody has all the factual information and decides to join the church or to go on a mission, that's great. We don't care. We just want it to be done with integrity and with honesty. All right. So, back to you, Julia. Yeah. And I really like that because a lot of what we're showing is like if people just want a better understanding or people are seeking to join the church, this will give that um infor the informed consent um aspect of it. Um so, yeah. Okay. So we I want to start with showing some of these clips from Jasmine specifically. And this is from her Tik Tok is um Scripture Plus. And so that's what these are being pulled from. And so we we can just go ahead and play the first one. And then if you guys have comments, that'd be great. At Scripture Central, we have now gone through 780 pages of scholarship on this topic. So here is the truth about the skin of blackness in the Book of Mormon. And it is not at all what you think it is. When you read about the Lammonites being cursed and receiving a skin of blackness, a lot of people get the ick, understandably, it can be really easy to read race and skin color into this. That's because we're bringing a lot of modern assumptions into this text. Since the book claims to be ancient, we should look to the ancient world to understand what's possibly going on here. Look at Lamentations in the Bible here. It's talking about the state of the people after the destruction of Jerusalem. And it says, "Her Nazerites were pure than snow. They were whiter than milk, but now their visage is blacker than a coal. And later on it adds, "Our skin was black like an oven." Skin color doesn't change like this. That's not how it works. So this clearly is some kind of symbolic metaphor. And it turns out this passage is actually appropriating this language from the Assyrian treaty of Assur Haden close to the time of Lehi in the 7th century BC. This treaty, like most covenants in the ancient world, was accompanied by penalties or curses for violating the covenant. And one of the curse penalties said, "May the gods make your skin and the skin of your women, your sons, and your daughters dark. May they be black as pitch and crude oil." Again, that's not how skin color works. This is clearly a symbolic reference. And in this case, it's a motif for death and destruction. The truth is that scholars have discovered examples of this symbolically describing people in terms of black or white in writings in ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia, Arabs, Christians, and a whole lot more. Likewise, the skin of blackness that Nephi describes falling upon the Lemonites was not necessarily physical, but rather it symbolizes a spiritual death, being cut off from the Lord. Their souls were in spiritual darkness. Toward the end of his record, Nephi prophesied that when the Lemonites came to know Jesus Christ again, they shall be a white and delightsome people. Now later, Joseph Smith clarified this passage in the 1842 edition of the Book of Mormon to read a pure and delight some people to make crystal clear that this is talking about spiritual purity, not skin color. But being symbolic is not the only interpretation. Scholars have also looked into this skin to blackness being some kind of artificial physical mark that the lemones placed on themselves. And some of them may surprise you. So if you want to read about those, check out the other videos in this series and read no 7:18. What is the skin of blackness in the Book of Mormon? Can I just ask what scholar is looking into what skin of blackness in the Book of Mormon means besides skin of blackness? Like, can that person, whoever that person is, be really considered a scholar? I think that the the upfront question seems like an apologetic thing. And I don't think ap it's hard to rank apologetics with scholars. I I think it's like what you said about Richard Bushman though, John, in in past episodes where it's like they're a scholar as far as the world of Mormonism is concerned, but outside of that, what their credentials are remains unclear, but they have that title because they're able to speak to a very niche issue that only matters to this very small group of people. Right. Yeah. And I just want to note um Jasmine's reading. So like somebody writes what she reads and then she reads it. She sounds like she believes and maybe even wrote what she's saying, but but she's the voice, right? Go ahead, Julia. Well, I will say that I have a script for myself that I write by myself, and I know that other characters do the same thing. So, like I do, but yeah, we don't I don't know where she's where she's getting. Yeah. Well, anyway, did y'all want to respond just quick? Yeah, it's the way that she says, "Oh, some of them may surprise you." And it's like, well, yeah, of course they will because we all thought the text literally meant skin of blackness cuz that's what it says. And it's this other thing, you know, you you might think it's about skin. Well, yeah, cuz it says skin. It's She's acting like we're the stupid ones for thinking that's what it means, but no, of course that's what you think it means. We're bringing modern assumptions and modern interpretation. You know what I mean? And also, can we can we just speak for a moment? This irritates me no end. Apologists in on one hand will say there were no significant changes to the Book of Mormon. They were all just grammatical blah blah blah blah blah. And then she's going, "Well, in an addition of the Book of Mormon from the 1840s, Joseph Smith changed the word white to pure to clarify the meaning of something." If that's not a significant change as she is portraying it to be in this video, then how can she say it's a significant change and it should change our understanding of the scripture or clarify our understanding of the scripture and then on another video say there were no real major changes to the Book of Mormon, right? And I will say I I don't think I have slides for this, but I will say that that those changes weren't made throughout the entire book. I think pretty surely only made it in at least one or two spots. I like the theological changes and that's why LCS discussions is so important because we the these episodes build on each other. We're in the mid-50s I believe now. But but what's important there is the church wants to have it both ways. They want us to believe that Joseph Smith put the sear stone this these days put the sear stone in a hat. It read to Joseph exactly what words he should dictate. Martin would pause or Oliver Calry would pause, write down what Joseph dictated from seeing actual words in the stone. And if that was the process, which the church wants us to believe, then why would Joseph ever need to go back and change any word ever, right? Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Because an omnipotent God would know that people are going to have difficulty with the word white and would give him the word pure in advance. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a problem. Also, just one god technically. It was interesting the script the the scripture that she shows about lamentations to kind of just say, well, the Bible also talks about skin of blackness or people with changing from dark skin. If you read those passages, it's it's not first of all, it's not talking about a curse. It's not talking about black skin being compared to or associated with wickedness like the Book of Mormon does. It's talking about people's skin changing uh or going darker based on the fact that there's uh of the heat it says and also hunger and um so I I I just it just it just doesn't make any like her her argument just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Yeah. That's why it's important to read between the ellipses because I did what Herado did and I went and looked up the verses. Yeah. And and it says their vage is black than than a coal. They are not known in streets. Their skin cleaveth to their bones. It is withered. It has become like a stick. This is the description of people dying in a horrific way by the sounds of it rather than a curse that's been put upon people to mark them as being undesirable to another group of people. Right. And and then on the verse 10 that she also refers to is our skin is hot as an oven oven feverish from hunger. So, it's just Yeah, just very different from the Book of Mormon and God cursing people and turning their skin black because they're wicked. Um, yeah. Well, I'm glad you clarified that because that's a really good thing to know that even what she's sharing isn't even helping. Whenever they put ellipsis in, you know, they're they're hiding something. And it's and it's kind of obvious, but we'll just say it. The problem is the Book of Mormon is super racist. that was built on the the mound builder myth which was super racist. We've talked about that in previous LDS discussions episodes and it's embarrassing to the modern church. Okay, so there's another clip that I wanted to show really quick. It's called uh the Book of Mormon is not racist. And again, this comes from Scripture Plus her little uh Tik Tok. Is the Book of Mormon racist? A lot of people get uncomfortable reading about the Lemonites skin of blackness and you can watch my other videos talking specifically about that. But just take a second to consider what the Book of Mormon is doing at a high level. The message of the Book of Mormon is overwhelmingly inclusive and is about inviting all people to come unto Jesus Christ. There's a reason Elder Ahmed Corbett said that the Book of Mormon is the most racially and ethnically unifying book on the earth. At no point in the Book of Mormon is any individual or group excluded from the blessings of the gospel on the basis of race or skin color. In fact, there's a lot of times the Book of Mormon talks about how the Lammonites were more righteous than the Nephites and how the Nephites are the ones who have to get their crap together, like with the prophecies of Samuel the Lammonite. The Book of Mormon is all about the power of the gospel to break down cultural and ethnic barriers and unite us in Jesus Christ. Like with the sons of Mosiah learning to serve with the Lammonites to come unto Christ. The only time of major peace in the Book of Mormon was in forth Nephi when the people finally let go of their tribalism and prioritize their common identity as children of God. There are a ton of Book of Mormon scriptures that preach the inclusive message of the gospel. You can possibly really want to read all of them right now. But a favorite is of course how Nephi simply puts it. God denth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female. All are alike unto God. The Book of Mormon's message rejects racism and prejudice and so should we. As far as how the Lemonite curse and the skin of blackness fits into all this, go read no wine number 718. What is the skin of blackness in the Book of Mormon? Most most uh what is it? The least racist book of all time. Oh my goodness. That's like that that Okay, so that gives me vibes of Jayette Dennis saying that the LDS church empowers women more than any other religious organization she knows of and she really just needs to get to know other religious organizations. Um the other bit about how oh well the Book of Mormon talks about how the Sons of Messiah worked with the Lammonites and that's like saying oh yeah the American military wasn't racist pre the removal of segregation. Look how entirely black units fought alongside entirely white units in the Second World War. Isn't that great? Well, there's still segregation at the heart of it, isn't there, Jasmine? Um and then the the final bit is Oh, I I don't I've lost my train of thought. Please save me. ridiculous to to say and and we're covering a lot of this on the the series with Matt Harris. Um the LDS discussions audience. If you've not been following Mormon stories, we've had a whole um 17 episodes we've recorded on this book, Secondass Saints, um the black the black Mormons and the struggle for racial equality. And yeah, it's true. The Book of Mormon has some universalistic messages because Joseph Smith early in his days, you know, had some universalistic leanings or tendencies, but to try and claim that either the Mormon Church or the Book of Mormon aren't racist, aren't objectively, vehemently, disgustingly racist just is the words escape me. And that whole like that whole God invites all to come into him, black and white, one free. It's like, okay, black and white. So both are invited, but one group as is made clear by the Book of Mormon needs a curse removing first. So they come unto God and God will fix them of that part and then they will all be made white in heaven and that forms a part of Mormon doctrine moving down that you know littleite children become whiter when they become in righteous families, right? We'll get to that later. But also, does black and white um you know omit any other potential shades of skin color? Yeah. How about the Book of Mormon? Well, how about that quote that the Book of Mormon is the most racially and ethnically unifying book on earth? Oh, wow. I wonder if we should ask other races and ethnicities if they agree. Jasmine. White Jasmine. Well, no, but Ahmed Corbett said that. So, he's, you know, part of the the incoming. So, one black general authority on the payroll says it. That's the definition of my black friend said. So therefore, for all races and all ethnicities worldwide, I get it. It makes sense. That makes sense. The church has equivalently got like I've got a black friend and he says it's all fine. So, oh my god, too much. Go ahead, Julie. Uh, so there's another clip that I wanted to show from your recent, I guess, recent sort of Jubilee episode that you were on. Yeah. Very great work. Um, I recommend everyone go watch the the full video and then watch the response on Mormon stories. And just for those who don't know, there there's a series on Jubilee called Middle Ground where they bring in people that disagree and let them talk candidly. And so they brought on me and a few ex Mormons to sort of go against some um allegedly, you know, faithful Mormons, which included Cardinellis and Quu, uh you know, millennial apologists. So, uh, yeah, this time came up. And the star of the show, who is the guy who's about to start speaking this guy. Yeah, for me, he's the star of the show. All right. Nemo's bucking for a raise. I've never No, I wasn't actually talking about you, John. I was talking about the guy that is so confused about the church's teachings that he's like, "Oh, yeah, that would be cultish, but the church doesn't do that." And yeah, they do. All right, let's roll the clip. I just want to say something. Um so this idea that uh people are thinking when they read that on the Book of Mormon or prophets or whoever is teaching it that Nephites are becoming into you know subsaharan Africans. I don't think that was ever the idea of it or people or even you know Brigham Young or or Joseph Smith when they would talk about uh what was happening here in the Book of Mormon, they were talking about the indigenous people in the Americas. And I mean I am from Mexico and how I always understood it, how it was always taught to me was that it it was the indigenous people from the Americans who were, you know, their skin was made dark and my skin therefore was dark because I was a descendant of the Lammonites. Um and and the curse that would came upon the Lemonites. So, this idea that do you uh the white Nephites were becoming into uh into Africans, I I don't I I don't know. I've never read it that way. I'm not sure if you guys do. Qu is getting his racism confused because he's confusing the the curse that was put upon the Lammonites to essentially explain why um to explain why the Native Americans were there. Uh he's confusing that with the curse of Cain, which is those of African descent uh not being allowed the priesthood. Right. Um, right. So, he's getting his racism confused. And they're very different because they're very different. Native Americans were never um, you know, never banned from the priesthood or or Mexicans or people from indigenous descent. No. And the reason the church had trouble in Brazil with the Sa Paulo temple and the reason that the ban was eventually lifted was because a lot of people in Brazil have got African ancestry because it was one of the big drop off points of the slave trade. You look at the triangle, it goes Brazil, then up to the states, then back over to to Europe, right? Yeah. And I will say just to hark on uh just your episodes with Matt Harris, he talks about the Sabal Brazil temple and how that was one of the um pins for getting the ban removed for special. So that's great that you brought that up for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I I you know there was there was that moment in that interview Herardo where Quu kind of pulls the the dark-skinned Trump card and says hey you're all white you really can't speak to this let let the dark guy in the room talk you're literally Yeah I was going to say like it's not even about you. It's not even talking about you. Yeah. He's not the dark that it's talking about. Yeah. What I was what I was gonna ask Cardo is I was gonna say like his curse is worse than the Lammonite curse because yeah the curse that the church thought that he had or people like like um um like Wu had was worse because it didn't allow them to priesthood. So or sealing in the temple with their families. Exactly. Well, all all I wanted to ask Herardo is you are Mexican. the Book of Mormon would be talking about your ancestors because you technically probably grew up being told you were a Lammonite. Do you want to tell us how you read the Book of Mormon in the skin of blackness as an actual Lammonite? Yeah. I mean, I would say most people in Mexico, if you go and ask them, they'll say they'll say to you that that uh they consider themselves Lemonites. I was taught I was a Lemonite. You know, I I've told this story multiple times on Mormon stories where like uh just a couple years ago, I I messaged my mom and I said, "Mom, is is it your understanding that the reason why my skin is dark is because I uh because the Lmonites were cursed and I'm a descendant of the Lemonites?" She said, "Yes." And and that's what people understand. That's what people believe. Uh that's what they were taught by the prophets. I mean, it's still what it's being taught when leaders go down there and talk to in state conferences and um and or you know, whatever type of conference where general authorities are talking down in Mexico, they tell them you are the descendants of Lehi. So, it is very clear and and general authorities still teach till uh today to the Mexicans that they are descendants of of the Lammonites. All right. So, in the same way that Oh, go ahead, Nemo. Well, so in the in the same way that the people of the Pacific Islands um were told they were Hagoth's people, right? There's this character in the Book of Mormon who set sail and uh and supposedly found the lands of the Pacific and they've been told, you know, they are descendants of these characters of the Book of Mormon. So, also if you have any question about what the church believes today about who the Lamemonites are, just go and watch the Book of Mormon videos on on YouTube that the church is still releasing. They just released new ones a couple months ago or a few weeks ago and look at who are the laymanites and what they look like. They don't look like white um Utah actors. So, it is very clear that the church is doing a big effort to represent who they believe the laymans are on the Book of Mormon videos. Let's do a test right now. Okay. So, Julia and Nemo, you guys are the judges. First question is, is Herardo's skin darker than the rest of our skin? Yes or no, Julia? Yes. Nemo. Yeah. Okay. Next question. Herardo, is it a tattoo? It's not. Okay. Is it Is it animal skin? No, it's not. Animal skin on your face. Is it Is it paint? He is wearing a black shirt. Is it He's wearing a black shirt. All right. He got me. Is that black shirt of mixed um fabrics? Because if so, the Old Testament God will have a few things to say about that as well. I mean, isn't this ridiculous? Like, you're right, Nemo. It's almost hilarious except that that these answers are being given to investigators and young members on TikTok to to help them justify their continued loyalty. And and as we're going to get into, this belief did cause some real harm amongst you Native American populations. Uh because to to a point that we'll get to later, Herado grew up in the church post the 1920s, which means that the dominant narrative is the Lamemonites are those of Central and South America. Right. Right. Um as well as the sort of Native Americans. it's everyone. Whereas there was a lot more focus on the tribes of North America pre sort of 1920s and that's the people will definitely be focusing on you know where it says in doctrine of covenants they went and and performed a mission amongst the laymanites right missionary work amongst the lameites we'll get to that but very specific tribes I just want to say one more thing if the church really believed what Jasmine is teaching here they should h instead of hiring her to do Tik Tok videos they should be hiring her to do the casting for the Book of Mormon video asking why people to They should hire her as prophet here and revelator for the church because she's literally interpreting our most sacred text and changing the fundamental narrative of the Book of Mormon and the teachings of 150 years of prophet seers and revelators which is the whole purpose of this series. Awesome. She's incredibly powerful. Yeah. Yeah. And and and just before we move on, can we just appreciate the camera work in that Jubilee video? The way that they caught Carden just looking incredibly uncomfortable with the entire thing and the fact that they brought the receipts and just put the scripture up on screen so everyone could just see that the scripture does in fact say that. I forgot how good the editing on that video was, but you should definitely all go watch it. It was good. Yeah, I was just thinking about with the was it is it Corbett? How do you say his or No, no. Yeah, Corbett. Yeah. Where he's saying if if the Book of Mormon truly is the most what did he say? The most racially unifying text. unifying text then why was it used for hundreds of years to justify racism like right right so that's one of the main not even just Native American aimed racism but you know towards African people or people of African descent that is yeah if what he's saying is true that means that for o over a hundred years prophet seers and revelators were either not reading it or not understanding the book of Mormon the main problem of scripture and treating people of color you know, um, in certain ways as a result of those interpretations, which is where the rubber meets the road is how people are treated in horrible ways. Exactly. Yeah. All right, Julia. And I've said this before, but I just want to make this point again. To create a new narrative around the meaning of the words skin of blackness is to deny the decades of racism within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the lived experiences of hundreds of Native Americans. Yeah. So, I just wanted to make that point really clear. Yeah. Okay. So, the first thing we're going to talk about, we're going to talk about the Lamemonite history in the church starting with 1830. And we're going to start right where you were talking about um Nemo with the mission to the Lammonites. Does someone want to help go through this slide with Sure, I'll jump in. Okay, perfect. It's fine. Joseph Smith sent Oliver Caldry, Parley P. Pratt, Peter Whitmer, and Zyber Peterson to preach amongst the Lammonites. In the history of Parley P. As published in the Latterday Saint millennial star, he says that the brethren went to New York and preached among the Senica and Onandaga nations as well as the Wandots Shauny and Delaware nations. Because the brethren did not have a license to preach among the Native Americans, Indian agent Indian agent Richard Cummins expelled the Mormons from the area. Thank you. So yeah, so right away he's sending men on missions. They're going to New York and other areas. are going to Ohio, parts of Missouri. And for for those who are not viewing but just listening, will you read the years on that slide, Julia? Oh, yeah. Sorry. Yeah. So, I missed this. Yeah. So, it's 1830 to 1831 when the first two years the church is existing. It's really clear who the Lamonites are, right? Published in 1830 and straight away, yeah, they've looked at Lamemonites in the Book of Mormon and gone, right, we know who they are. Let's go preach to them. Okay. Yeah. So right away, Joseph Smith, right after organizing the church, he starts sending men on missions or organizing these missions and then sending them off. Because the Book of Mormon was written for who? The Lammonites. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. So it's pretty important that we know who they are, right? Yeah. That that they know who they are so that the book can be given to them, right? Yeah. Right. So there's another there's another slide. It says that in July of 1831, Joseph Smith received a revelation for a man named Sydney Gilbert that stated, "Also, let my servant Sydney Gilbert obtain license. Behold, here is wisdom, and who so readeth, let him understand that he may send goods unto the Lammonites, even by whom he will he will as clerks employed in his service, and thus the gospel may be preached unto them." So again, this is more missionary work through um through this sending of goods. Is that him trying to do a workound as getting native Americans to work as clerks for him so he can teach them the gospel? Is that did I understand that right? Yeah, I think so. And there was a lot of workarounds too. Um with the the previous slide that we were talking about where they were kicked out because they didn't have license. They weren't licensed to do this. Um one of the one of the reasons to get away around that is polygamy. And we can talk about that in a in a couple slides. So Herardo, do you want to read this one? Okay, sure. Joseph Smith Jr. July 1831. Some early writers attributed speaking in tongues and other acts as having come from the Mormons imitating the Native Americans. Their conduct, the Mormons in Kirkland, grew more and more eccentric and absurd. Sometimes they imitated the grotesque antics of the wild Indian in knocking down, sculping, and tearing out the bowels of the of his victim, thus anticipating the hour of their fancied admission to those lost sons of Jacob. Indeed, it is reported by an eyewitness that at first the laying hands on the heads of their converts to confer the gift of the Holy Spirit generally produced an inst instantaneous protestation of both body and mind often followed by a wonderful gift of tongues and was supposed in Indian dialects which indeed none could understand except by direct inspiration. And then the source of that is JB Turner Mormonism in all ages 1842. All right. What is Yeah. So this one I pull this one um because uh in the early days in Kurland the members when they were converted or when they're getting the Holy Ghost put on their heads they would act in such a way they would they were mimicking what they what they viewed the Native Americans as doing. And so this one this um writer says the the grotesque antiques of the antics of the wild Indian. And he talks about other things that were that were followed. And I just thought that was really interesting that um that they're kind of even even as far as the gift of tongues where they where they are filled with the Holy Ghost and they start speaking almost sort of nonsense words that can't really be translated, but some of the members do translate them um not correctly, but they or they're just saying that these are the meaning of the words. But anyway, I just thought this is a really interesting point that they're that they're mimicking the what they see as the actions of the Native Americans. And isn't it really interesting as part of the ongoing change of narrative in the church that when we grew up with the article of faith, we believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, interpretation of tongues, etc. Right? That that was always taught certainly to me as oh some people are good at languages and some people are not. Um when is actually it is the gift of tongues as understood by a lot of sort of evangelical churches and other sort of Protestant church groups as just speaking in nonsense languages as moved upon by the Holy Ghost. Right? And that was part of our church's history too. But we've moved past that and we're like, "Oh, no, that's not what that means. We're now just talking about people being good at languages." So there's the it will become a theme later, but the church likes to kind of evolve its narrative around the early days of the church. Yeah, that's a great example. What words mean? Yeah, it's kind of interesting. I mean, if you think about it, if they were really doing this with trying to imitate um indigenous people, um it is because there they there's this belief, you know, that the Lammonites have this traditions uh that come from Lehi and Nephi and old Israel that they they can bring in to Mormonism. I mean, that that's that's my guess as to why they would be doing this. Is that your understanding, Julia? Yeah. So um one one thing that I understood is this this there's an excellent book called Making Lamemonites. It's by historian Ga Matthew Garrett and he talks about this as well where the early saints really thought that they were going to be integrating into a Native American church, not kind of the other way around. They thought that once they heard the gospel they would they would they would leap for joy and that they would all join the church and that they would take leadership positions and things like that. And so I think the saints were trying to make themselves kind of fit into this like what you're saying like oh this is what Lehi would have done or this is what Nephi would have done or or whatever because this is their culture. And so I think that that's I think you're right in in in saying that. This is very interesting. Um, I'm just thinking about how today if you go to uh the pyramids in Tulum, they'll there's this big family of um of tourist guides who will charge um LDS or people or Mormons uh for tour for Mormon tours. Well, they'll give you a private tour of the um of the pyramids in Tulum and they'll explain to you how it was there where Lehi sailed and how the pyramid this pyramid uh means or represents the celestial kingdom and this pyramid represents the terrestial kingdom and this is the celestial kingdom and this is how they were doing the temple ritual back then and and they you know they they're interpreting everything on the pyramids in of Tulum. um based on Mormonis and understanding that um you know the culture of of the Mayas or in Tulum is um you know it came from the from the Lammonites or the Nephites or Lehi. Yeah. And this is in Is this in Guatemala? Where is that located? This is in Mexico. Mexico. Oh, Mexico. Okay. Yeah. Because there's a lot of people that push for the the Book of Mormon being taking place down there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so, so this next slide, Nemo's face. Wait, Nemo, you want to say something? I I don't even know what to begin to say. Uh, if there's a part of history that that Mormons can rewrite and make money out of, I guess they'll do it. Like, that's so weird. Yeah. It's It's like that video, you know, that video the church put out about like um how could the Book of Mormon not be true because you would have to produce this many pages and you would have to look at ancient civilizations. And when they did ancient civil civilizations, they did Stonehenge, which is like 5,000 years old. Then they did Machu Picchu, which is like newer than the events of the Book of Mormon. And it's just like they have no understanding of the timeline of these places, like Tulum. Like they they just don't work with the Book of Mormon timeline. Yeah, exactly. It's crazy. Yeah. And I I will say just on a kind of a side note, the church made a recent video called Scripture Legacy, I think is what it's called. And they show in there these mounds from from here in the United States. And one of them I've been to um uh oh my gosh, what is it called? Cahokia. The the Cahokia mound, which is a huge mound. The base is bigger than the pyramids in Egypt. But so they're even the church seems to be thinking like, oh, let's move the narrative to here rather than rather than anywhere. Where here here is here in the United States. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they seem to be moving towards that that vision. Yeah. Yeah. It's like it's like it's like whack-a-ole. Like the church will put the Book of Mormon wherever they need to in response to whatever question or concern there is. If it's like, "Oh, oh wait, the the the time that it takes for people to walk in the Book of Mormon, um they're able to get a long distances in a really short amount of time. Well, let's put it in Central America." And then it's like, "Oh, wait, that's racist." or oh no, you know that that that means there has to be two hill kamoras because Joseph Smith had a kamura up in New York but one in okay let's move it to North America and they're just always moving around uh the locations based on whatever immediate question they're trying to answer. But part of my problem with Neil and um you know Jasmine and others is that they'll give opposing answers to two different questions without having the intellectual honesty and consistency of of trying to reconcile the two in my opinion. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Where are we going next, Julia? So we're going to polygamy next. John, do you want to read this one? All right. Native American polygamy 1831. In 1831, Joseph Smith received a revelation that the saints should marry um Native Americans. Quote, "Verily I say unto you that the wisdom of man in his fallen state knoweth not the purposes and the privileges of my holy priesthood, but ye shall know when ye receive a fullness by reason of the anointing. For it is my will uh that in time ye should take unto you wives of the Lamemonites and Nephites that their posterity may become white and delightsome and just. For even now their females are more virtuous than the Gentiles. Um and I just, you know, I just have to say, let's look really closely at at at this quote. This is number one, Joseph Smith, the Mormon church's founding prophet. Number two, it's in 1831, a year after the Book of Mormon was published, in the second year of the church's existence. He's saying who the Lamemonites are. He's he's uh he's, you know, acknowledging that they have dark skin. And then he's teaching this horrific racist idea that if they're righteous, not only did God curse them with the dark skin in the first place, but that if they're righteous, if they intermingle with the righteous, you know, Mormons of the day, that slowly their dark skin will become light and white because white and light represents good and righteousness. Not according to Joseph Smith, according to God and Jesus themselves. Am I Herardo? Am I getting that wrong? Is that what we're supposed to read there? I I mean, that's what I'm getting. Yeah. And as I Can you put it back on the screen? Absolutely. And as I'm reading it, it's it's interesting. This is because this is being attributed to Joseph Smith, right? So, um remember on the video from Jasmine where she says, "Oh, Joseph Smith never believed that that um that the Lamemonites were going to become white and the lights on. That's why he went and changed it in the Book of Mormon to say pure and delightsome. Here is Joseph Smith saying, you know, that that go and take the wives of the Lamemonites and Nephites so they pro prosperity becomes white and the lightsome. But then Joseph Smith didn't necessarily understand the Book of Mormon as well as maybe we might think because he's saying here, you take to the wives of the Lammonites and Nephites, right? know what the Book of Mormon means better than Joseph Smith himself? Well, here they might have a point because the Nephites were destroyed, so they have no um POS like Nephites that they're taking for wife. They they have no descendants. They were wiped out. But also, this is Joseph Smith introducing polygamy very very early on. And how disgusting is it that he's sending these Mormon missionaries to convert the Native Americans to the Mormon church? But, you know, while you're at it, let's go ahead and just take his wives just while you're at it, you know, because you know, they're dark they're dark. So, it's it, you know, they're not worth that much. So, let's go ahead and if you want to add a couple as your own wives, it doesn't matter if they want to be your wives. You missionaries, you go down there and make a few of them your wives if you want to. Julia, how does that how does that uh you know feel for your your female sensibilities? I'm just curious. That's really gross. Like there's a lot of history with the women in the church, the Lammonite or the Native American women in the church. That's just really gross. It's all of it actually. Like polygamy, everything. It's just Yeah. Can can we just make sure I'm understanding correctly? Because I'm not quite seeing in there where it says polygamy rather than just men. And that's a good thing to point out because some of the men he's talking to are not married, but some of them are married. And so that's the that's a good thing to point out though too. Yeah. But my understanding is this is the first time that Joseph Smith introduced polygamy to the church even though the Book of Mormon condemned it. It was it was this revelation about missionaries going to the Native Americans in the Missouri area where Joseph first introduced the idea of polygamy. And is that wrong, Julia? Well, I guess you could say who is this audience because are they already married or are they not? And so, and I know that some of them some of these people were married. And so, like, I guess you could say these are the beginnings of polygamy. But he didn't distinguish, right? Yeah. He's not distinguishing. And the church itself in its gospel topics essay on polygamy says that there's indications about polygamy as early as 1831. It the church says it in its own gospel topics essay on polygamy. And this has to be what they're referring to. Yeah, that would make the most sense. Yeah. No, there's just Oh, yeah. Yeah. There's no other document. I just wanted to lock that down because, you know, it doesn't say in here it's specifically polygamy, but that makes a lot of sense. No, these were largely married, right? Yeah. And then to the people who want to deny polygamy, I will point out that this letter wasn't published until 1861, but it's so this man is remembering or WW Phelps to Brigham Young is saying that he remembers Joseph saying these things. And so, yeah. Okay. Uh, and then as I've said before, some historians have speculated that the reason Joseph Smith did this is because white men who married Native American women enjoyed greater access to Indian communities or even land. So like if you're married, you can get in and if you're married to a Native American, you can get in easier to these communities and teach the gospel or or take their land. And so some historians have speculated that's maybe one of the reasons why he did that to help them. Let me let me just say one one more thing. I I know there like we just mentioned there is some doubt whether this document or whether this was accurate an accurate representation of what Joseph Smith thought back in 1831. However, this is coming from a letter from WW Phelps and let's remember W. Phelps was he printed the first edition of the Book of Mormon. He was someone that was super close to Joseph Smith. So if his understanding uh of who the Lammonites are and how the Lammonite skin was going to become whiter was wrong and Jasmine's is correct. I mean that just doesn't make a lot of sense. This is the guy who was as close to Joseph and the Book of Mormon uh you know as anybody. So he was there at the time. More importantly, Jasmine is looking back on this with presentism. Right. Right. She's putting her modern vices or her modern, you know, sensibilities onto what she's reading. Phelps was there. Yeah, that's good to back you up there, Herado. Good point. Well, and then there are other sources that that also support polygamy among the natives and a polygamy uh polygamy with these uh men. So, one of them comes from Ezra Booth and this was published in the Ohio Star in a newspaper in 1831 and then it was also published in Edie House Mormonism Unveiled. Um Nemo, do you want to read this one? Laymonite marriage/p polygamy Ezra Booth 1831 and I will point out that Ezra Booth was already married just to make that clear. Okay, thanks. Uh in addition to this and to cooperate with it, it has been made known by revelation that it will be pleasing to the Lord should they form a matrimonial alliance with the natives. And by this means the elders who comply with the things so pleasing to the Lord and for which the Lord has promised to bless those who do it abundantly gain a residence in the Indian territory independent of the agent. It has been made known to one who has left his wife in the state of New York that he is entirely free from his wife and he is at liberty to take him a wife from among the Lamemonites. There you go. Polygamy. Uh it was easily perceived that this permission was perfectly suited to his desires. I have frequently heard him state that the Lord had made it known to him that he is as free from his wife as from any other woman and the only crime that I have ever heard alleged against her is she is violently opposed to Mormonism. So what is this saying Julia? What is this? So I guess reading it again because he's saying that his he left his wife and so Joseph or he's trying to point out that he's this man is now single. So the church started in New York and his wife is in New York anyway. So like but Joseph is also saying but even above that he's saying that it's it'll it's pleasing unto the Lord that they have matrimonial alliances with the natives and that they can highlight that he says independent of the agent because like the agent um kicks kicks them out in 1830 or 1831. So he's saying so this seems to be a point to to like move around that to preach the gospel. It's also very consistent with DNC 132. It's just this language of Joseph Smith in the name of Jesus telling men who they are and aren't allowed to marry and the women are basically chatt that just get assigned as property to the white Mormon men who Joseph deems are worthy to marry them. Is that is that not on brand for DNC 132 Joseph Smith Mormonism? It is. I will say too that women women didn't have a lot of rights back then anyway. They were they were basically a movable good and that's all they were allotted were these movable goods where the things that weren't they weren't land or they weren't big amounts of property. So like so like to say that like Mormonism isn't unique in its sexism in this age like like this is just how women were treated. This is just their rights. And so like yes it is on brand with DNC32. Women are just child. Women don't really have a choice. So yeah both I guess can be true. If if we look into to the end of this if you put it on screen um just give you a chance there. Uh so he said, "I frequently heard him state this this man Ezra Booth um that the Lord has made known to him that he is free from his wife as any other woman. The Lord made that known to him, not the state. He's not divorced from her, right? The Lord has told him that he's free of her and he's just left her behind. He hasn't taken any legal steps. That that that was what this would indicate. Um and the only crime that his wife who is left behind has had alleged against her is she's violently opposed to Mormonism. So, she clearly blames Mormonism for the fact that her husband just went off and got married to a native woman and didn't actually end things with her and just left, which means that she's still seen as married, which means that she's not free to, you know, be supported by anyone else or to get another husband or or whatever. Right? That's between the lines there. Is this also Joseph putting himself above the the law basically, whatever divorce laws, marriage laws are, I Joseph get to decide. I trump all Well, that's not new. So I feel like that's a Yes. Joseph I feel like he frequently put himself above the law. Yeah. Okay. All right. Yeah. Okay. So moving to the next one. Okay. So again, this is another one about laymanite marriage. And this one's coming from Martin Harris. And this one, I will be clear, this one was published in Naked Truths about Mormonism in 1888, but he's saying that he get he hears about this in 1831. Um uh Herard, do you want to read this one? Sure. uh lemonite lemonite marriage Martin Harris 1831/188 in a publication titled naked truths about Mormonism Martin Harris reiterated that he was to take a lemonite wife Martin Harris claimed he had a revelation when he first came to Kirtland for for him to go to Missouri and obtain a layman's squa squ squa squa for a wife to aid them in propagating Mormonism Martin told me soon after Joseph the prophet left Kirtland that two years before he had told him that as his wife had left him he needed a woman as other men. All right, Julia. So what's this telling us? So this one is just this one's not about polygamy specifically because Martin Harris his wife did leave him Lucy Harris and so he's now he's free from women who's from marriage and so Joseph is encouraging him to take a lemonite. This is a this a really um squ is I think is a racial term or a sexist term. Um so he so Joseph is encouraging him to take a a lame or Native American wife. So because he is single now. So it's basically corroborating evidence that Joseph was down with with Mormon leaders taking Native American wives as their own. Right. Right. So the last three slides were slides were about Joseph Smith encouraging a marriage among the Native Americans and then also polygamy among the Native Americans. Got it. Okay. Cuz Okay. So, this is a question I had for you, Julia, a while back because when we were talking about when Joseph tried to uh change the Book of Mormon or not try to when he supposedly changed the Book of Mormon, a couple scriptures where it talks about the lame manet skin becoming instead of becoming white and lightsome, it becomes pure and the lightsome. Um, and and then we I I speculated that maybe this was Joseph realizing that it was going to be hard to fulfill that um that promise that the Book of Mormon has and it would be something that's test that that people could test really easily. You know, if a Lemonite becomes a member of the church and then their skin doesn't turn white, then you know, how how do you square that with the Book of Mormon saying that they're supposed to turn white? And I I speculate that maybe the reason why he changed it was because he realized that was never that was actually not gonna happen. And I'm wondering if all this talk about when he's encouraging Mormon leaders to go and marry Lamemonites and then I mean we have at least one account where he talks about lit lit really explicitly make their offspring become whiter. um you know if that was him trying to make that um that prophecy fulfilled and then when he was not successful then he just ended up changing the Book of Mormon to to read pure and the lightsome. But I I don't know that's just speculative on my part. No, I I think that's a really good speculation because in the 1830s Joseph Smith seems to have that idea of white Lamemonites and their skin color changing and then the Lamemonites aren't or the excuse me I'm getting it my language confused. the Native Americans were not receptive to the gospel and so not very many of them joined the church. And so I wonder if in the 1840s because she pointed out that that one change was made in 1842. I wonder if he's realizing that this this isn't really happening and they had to kind of change the Book of Mormon narrative to like help it more apply to them rather than to the to the Lamemonites. So I think that's a really good a really good guess or speculation or whatever. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So this other one I think is really good too. This is this is from Joseph Smith in a letter. This is wr written by Joseph Smith in a letter to NC Saxton on January 4th of 1833. So the prophet stated, "The Book of Mormon is a record of the forefathers of our western tribes of Indians, having been found through the ministration of a holy angel translated into our own language by the gift and power of God after having been hid up in the earth for the last 1400 years containing the word of God which was delivered unto them. But yet we learn that our western tribes of Indians are descendants from Joseph from that Joseph that was sold into Egypt and that the land of America is a promised land unto them. I have thoughts. What are your thoughts? Uh well straight away this for me comes along with the the idea of the hill Kamora as well is that we have to look what Joseph Smith was actively teaching and believing. So, Joseph Smith taught that that hill was the same hill where this battle took place where millions of people died. And then you've got a BYU archaeologist comes along later and says, "That is a clean hill. There's nothing there." And that causes apologists to have to scramble and panic and go, "Well, where are we going to put the hill then? We have to put it somewhere else." Well, no, you don't. You just have to accept that Joseph claimed it was a certain place and now you can't find any evidence. And it's similarly here. the tribes of Western Native Americans. If you can't find any DNA that matches amongst them to uh you know people from the Middle East, that has to be a problem. You can't just shift that by going oh well some people in South America. Well, no no no no they it's not exclusive. They may also be part of it. You know, Joseph didn't say only the forefathers of Western tribes of Indians. But the point is that that needs to be a focus. the forefathers. Uh the Book of Mormon was a record of the forefathers of the Western Tribes of Indians. So if the western tribes of Indians don't match up, then that is a problem and I'm sure we'll get to that later, but right that really I I feel the need to to really be specific about that. No, that's good. And then during this time too, um, Joseph is sending these men to missions and there's a story of Oliver Cowry going to the Delaware Indians and he stands up in their tent and he's just telling them that they're that the Book of Mormon is about them and he's very very clearly connecting making these connections between you are the Lammonites, you are descendants from this man who came out of Jerusalem to here to I don't remember where he was at the time, Ohio or New York. I can't remember where the Delawarees were located, but but yeah, very clear direction from Joseph Smith saying that these these specific tribes were native were the Lammonites. And never at any point do I hear Joseph saying that these tribes are Lammonites and these tribes are not. To him and to everyone, all the early saints, all of the Native Americans were all Lammonites. There was no distinction there. Not just the tribes in North America, Central and South America as well. Um, yeah, I think that's that's accurate because he also points to Mexico and in the lower areas like people talk about Guatemala and stuff like that. I'm pretty sure he although I don't know how aware Joseph was of these of the individuals, but if but but even that's just a that was a cultural mindset everyone thought and uh there's a book here that's by Dan Vogel. It's an amazing book. It's called the Book of Mormon origins or the Indian origins in the Book of Mormon. And he talks about how everyone had the mindset that if you if they're Native Americans, they're the lost tribes of Israel. And so that wasn't just the tribes in the Native Americans in America, it was down in South America as well. And really cool, really quick, Julia, tell us again how this um this slide is supporting something uh not in sync with with what Jasmine and and Neil and others are trying to argue. This is just laying continued groundwork that that Joseph Smith believed that the Native Americans around him were the laymanites in the Book of Mormon. Is that what or is it something more specific? No, that's what I that's how I read it because she was saying she's trying to say that it's that Joseph Smith didn't know or he didn't call these people this way or um or even the change that that was made that we'll talk about later in the Book of Mormon that says the principal ancestors or among the ancestors. In Joseph's mind, that was the case that there was all the ancestors of the Native Americans, okay, were the Lammonites. Got it. Yeah. All right. Okay. So, this one is a story that I really like. Um, John, do you want to read this story? Yeah. This is story of Zelf, the White Laymanite from 1834. This is where the the YouTube channel Zelf on the Shelf uh ultimately derived its name from. But, uh, let's read the story of Zelf. So in the history of the church, a story comes from Zion's camp which was a trek in which the brethren found an uncovered grave. This is from uh I guess history of the church 1838 to 1856 volume A. Um and uh here's what it says. Quote, I discovered that the person whose skeleton was before us we had seen was a white layman. So I bet I think if I understand it, Joseph's a tool around Missouri with some other Mormons. They're mad at the state of Missouri because uh you know the Mormons are trying to have settlements in Missouri, but the Missurans hate the Mormons. There's some tension, animosity between them, and it almost comes to war because Joseph brings a bunch of of his followers with sort of an army to take down to Missouri to fight um the Missurrians over their conflicts. And so um while they're doing that they they come across a skeleton um and so they see the skeleton and so here it is. So I discovered that the person whose skeleton was before us we had seen was a white layman a large thick set man and a man of God. His name was Zelf. He was a warrior and chieftain under the great prophet Anand Deus who was known from the hillcamora or eastern sea to the Rocky Mountains. His name was Zelf. The curse was taken from him. Zelf or at least in part one of his thigh bones was broken by a stone flung from a sling. While in battle years before his death, he was killed in battle by the arrow found among his ribs during a last great struggle with the Lamemonites and Nephites. I go ahead, Nemo. I wish that we had this skeleton. I wish like Joseph had kept it and we had it because modern modern sort of postmortem techniques we would be able to work out just how much of this is nonsense. Because Joseph's basically found a skeleton and gone, "Right, I'm going to go full sort of postmortem on this. I'm going to work out cause of death. I'm going to work out how how long this bone was broken before the thing that killed him actually happened." He doesn't have any of the skills to know any of that sort of stuff. He knows how his skin color transforms. Yeah. From from the bones. We really need the skeletons to know that this is We don't. But it would be great. It would be like having the Kinder Hook plates, right? It just makes it easier to prove that it's nonsense. Yeah. How many how many things do we actually need? You know, we have we have the papyrie, we have the Kinderhook place. How many things we have to prove that all of this is like madeup stuff? Yeah. And again, this is also we we let's just not forget that this is Joseph Smith. Again, it's like Joseph couldn't make a prophecy. Joseph Smith couldn't make scripture without inserting some sort of narrative about dark skin and curses. The curse of Cain, Book of Moses, Book of Abraham, Doctrine and Covenants. And here a random sort of revelation about this skeleton that he stumbles upon. He's got toert some sort of dark-kinned curse because he literally has never met a revelation that he didn't want to insert some sort of dark-kinned curse into. Am I wrong? No, I don't think you are wrong. It shows his racial worldview, right? They disturb they disturbed a shallow grave uh of someone killed by an arrow head supposedly. I mean, if they did find an arrow between his ribs, like that's, you know, that's pretty savage stuff going down, but it's probably quite recent. Um, it's definitely not ancient if they're stumbling across skeletons, right? Right. I will point out, too, oh, did you want to say Yeah, I was just going to say this has all the elements, right? This is here Joseph Smith talking about Lamemonite skin changing from dark to white being removed also from Kamura to all the way to the Rocky Mountains, right? And he talks he talks about this has all the elements. I mean, yeah. And this is I mean, there's no way this was him trying to understand stuff and trying to understand some verses in the Book of Mormon that maybe he mis mis uh you know, he didn't really understand what God was meaning. This is him literally spouting revelation that he was receiving from God. So, um yeah, I wonder how Jasmine explains this one. Maybe he just doesn't know about it. I'll also point out that there that the in the 1830s and 1830 and 31 the missionaries were also going to the on and daga Indians as we noted before and so I just think that's really interesting where he's taking on and dagas and making that a a great prophet and so I just wonder if he's trying to maybe make that connection in his head which again you know he's trying to connect these to the people who he truly believes or is you know telling people are the descendants of these individuals from the the history as recorded in the Book of Mormon. So again, like you say, it just like Herado said, it just shows that this is what he believed that the curses had effect on the skin color. Their animal skins were removed. He's not saying their tattoos were removed. He's not saying the paint was washed off. He's Joseph Smith. The curse was taken. The curse was taken. He went from dark to white-kinned. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty condemning right there. Right. Yeah. Jasmine, let me let me put myself on full. Jasmine Rapali, Neil Rapai, can you please do us all a favor, use your integrity, and come up with a with a Tik Tok video or YouTube video that explains how to reconcile your interpretations of what uh skin of blackness means in the Book of Mormon with with Joseph Smith's story of Zelf and the White Laymanite. I want to see that video. Please, please rapalize bless us with your knowledge and your wisdom. I have heard we're wrong, we want to know it. I have heard people say that they don't take Z the white lemonade very seriously, although it is published in the history of the church as he pointed out. During the same time, there is a letter that he writes to Emma in which he says that they rove over the mounds of the once beloved people of the the Lammonites and they pick up their bones and things like that. And so to me, this is like this is just like a a support of that letter that that we have from that he gave to Emma that it's wonderfully convenient to just not have to take the prophet seriously about some things. Just be like, "Ah, no, I just don't take it seriously when the founder of the religion makes a declaration about a matter of church doctrine or, you know, a matter of church history. I don't have to take that seriously." Right. When you get selective, it's it's a wonderful convenience that apologists get to use. Yeah. Um, very true. So, in this next slide, I'm going to set it up a little bit where the the the early saints, as I mentioned, they thought that they that the that there would be more Native Americans joining the church, but that the whole all these missions were were very fruitless in that way. Although, the the best thing that came out of it is that Sydney Rigdon was converted and he brought his whole congregation over. So, that really put Mormonism on the map. That gave them numbers because because there was like now like several hundred people that had joined the church. Um but so it's so the the native there the the Mormons are trying to reconcile like not having um not having converts from the Native Americans. And so this this is what brings in this these like code names that the that they use in the Doctrine of Covenants. And so from this story u or from this book with Matthew Garrett the historian he points to or let me just read the slide. So he says, he explains that as Native Americans failed to fulfill anticipated leadership roles or even general membership, Mormon leaders sought to replace Indians through the use of code names that reflected their own imagined Israelite identity. Code names were used from 1832 to 1835. uh code names that were used served to protect leaders from financial liability during during Kirtland co-op and banking experiments, but the very same code names surfaced throughout Smith's non-financial related revelations. So, there's an interesting story here about code names. So within the Doctrine of Covenants essentially because not enough Native Americans were joining the church and taking up leader leadership positions as was desired by them that what they did was they used code names or fake names that they sort of thought sounded Native Americanish um in a section of the Doctrine of Covenants which I think you've got on a slide that we can look at. But those were actually just code names for Smith and other church leaders. So they were they were trying to take the actions of Smith and other church leaders, put code names on it, so it made it seem like they've got all these Native American converts that are doing things like Okay, wait, put that slide back up. So let's just I I I need someone to explain this to me. So there's Mormon church leaders like Oliver Calry, Martin Harris that that they could have used those names or Native Americans have actual names. Yeah. Why are they using code weird code names in the Doctrine of Covenants? Yeah, I think this was this one I think deserves its own episode if we want to do that as an LDS discussions episode. But yeah, he was trying to mask because he's he's giving them he's giving them a land. He's giving them positions of stewardship and so he's trying I think trying to cover up white associates of Joseph Smith. Correct. Yes. Yes. So like him, Sydney Rigdon, um Oliver Cry, like every all the main leaders WW Phelps, they all have these fake names that they are Zombre Mahome. Yeah. use their real name. They what? Why doesn't anybody use their real names in this? Ma Matthew Garrett says that it was because u to avoid financial liability uh during the Kirtland co-op and banking experiments. I think he also trying to protect leaders from that liability. Uh it says name surfaced through Smith's non-finance related. This was in an original version of the doctrine of covenants that then has been scrubbed. Is that correct? Yes. Yeah. For a while there there the church was publishing the doctrine of covenants with the code names associated but in the in the modern editions they just take the code names out and then just put in the the name revelations work that way. God and Jesus give revelations that then they just take back right. So I think there was a couple of things that that Ma Matthew Garrett is is talking about where he they're trying to make it look like Native Americans are having these positions in land and that they're just part of the scripture because that's the main part of the Book of Mormon. But then as Herardo points out, these code names were used to cover themselves financially, especially during the Kirtland Bank uh the anti-banking society. So I just thought this was really reminds me of the Mountain Mills massacre where they're trying to blame the murders on the Native Americans. It's like if you if you got some pickle you want to get out of, let's stick it to the Native Americans somehow. That's really how they thought. Yes. But not like real as far as I've understood what that says, not use real Native American names, even just names that come from Joseph Smith's imagined history of the Native Americans or his some of them sound like more Hebrew. Yes. Um but yeah, a lot of them and Zelf, I don't know where he's getting if that's more of a Hebrew kind of sounding name. I mean, we can all thank him for that because that is an iconic YouTube channel. I think we got it from Dr. Seuss. Oh, wait. Is that an anacronism? Is Dr. Seuss an anacronism? I think he's a bit late. Yeah. Isn't it interesting that this those names sound a lot like Book of Mormon names? Yeah, that's my point. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, they're a little more shine. Zombre sounds almost. Um, but apart from that, Yeah. And lane shine house. House. Yeah. It's like what? Three words. But again, that's anacronistic as well, right? Do you guys have what, three words? I can read this. Can I read this? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So, this is literally God's holy scripture. Jesus himself revealing to Joseph Smith a section of the Doctrine of Covenants. Uhhuh. In 1835. I I assume God and Jesus were in charge in 1835, right? Is that like I mean, right. So this Jesus speaking to Joseph Smith in 1835 as revealed as holy scripture to God's holy prophet on the earth. And here's what God and Jesus have to say um in 1835. And again, let my servant Mahmsum have appointed unto him for his stewardship the lot of the land which my servant Zombre obtained in exchange for his former inheritance for him and his seat after him. And in so much as he is faithful, I will multiply blessings upon him in his seat after him. And let my servant Mahmsum devote his monies for the proclaiming of my words according as my servant Gazalem shall direct. And again, this is Joseph Smith telling people how to spend their money. It always happens to me in ways that will benefit Joseph Smith, I'm sure. But but it but it's actually God and Jesus telling people just like Emma needs to have let Joseph Smith have polygamous wives. These men need to spend their money coincidentally in ways that would benefit Joseph Smith according to God and Jesus. Verse five. And again, let my servant Sheeter Lomach have the place upon which he now dwells. That's Frederick G. Williams. And let my servant Oha, that's Oliver Cry, have the lot which is set off joining the house which is to be for the Lane Shine House. Who's that, Julia? What is that? Wait, what? Lane Shine House. Oh, it's the law number. The printing the printing office. Which is a lot number one. Which is lot number one. And also the lot upon which his father resides. And let my servant Sheeter Loach Frederick Williams and Oiha Oliver have the Lane Shine House printing office and all things that pertain this one verse. These two verses prove Mormonism is isn't true. This is the dumbest verses in the history of Mormon scripture. And that's saying a lot. That's saying a lot, by the way. But this is so dumb. We're told that God reveals scripture because it's crucial to our modern day. And so God didn't take the time to tell us about germ theory or penicellin or the civil war that was coming up or systemic sexism or racism. He wants to spend two entire verses with this super stupid racist fictional Native American scam for a real estate scheme. Is that is that what we're supposed to believe here? Yes. But it's not just four verses. He does this throughout the all of DNC um the 1835 edition. So it's several sections that have these code names in them. So that's to trick the members, right? That's the member reading this think that there are these like Native Americans they've just never met who have got all these special leadership positions. All the laymanites rejoining the church fulfilling the prophecies of the Book of Mormon for their inheritance. Oh Mike, we need Mike. They are they are the the the Joseph Smith equivalent of the shell companies they hid their money in. Right. Those names exist on paper. Also Neil Rapali and and Jasmine Rapali. I want you to create some Tik Tok videos explaining these two these two versions. Yes, please. Yeah. Yeah. We want to know what you know what what presantist perspective we're bringing to them and uh and why they're super you know what scholars what scholars at BYU who are paid by the church what sense they would make of these two verses because they're awesome. Yeah. And again it's not just the two. It's throughout all of Doctrine Covenants. Okay. Okay. So, there's another one that I wanted to point to of a of a hymn that was written. Um, this is Emma's one of the first hymn books that was written and this was in 1835. U, does somebody want to read this hymn? Yes, please. Go for it, Nemo. Okay. Oh, stop and tell me, red man. Who are ye? Why you Rome? And how you get your living? Have you no god, no home? with stature straight and portly and decked in native pride with feathers, paints, and brooches, he willingly replied. Let me just stop. This is a This is in the original LDS church hymn book. Yes, this hymn. Oh, stop and tell me red man. We just have to really drive that point. This is one of the most super racist hymns. If you'd given me the tune, I would have sang it. All right, keep going. I once was pleasant Ephraim when Jacob form you prayed. But oh how blessings vanish when man from God has strayed. Before your nation knew us some thousand moons ago. Our fathers fell in darkness and wandered to and fro. And long they lived by hunting instead of work and arts. And so our race has dwindled to idle Indian hearts. Yet hope within us lingers as if the Spirit spoke. He'll come for your redemption and break your gentile yoke. And all your captive brothers from every climb shall come and quit their savage customs to live with God at home. Then joy will fill our bosoms and blessings crown our days to live in pure religion and sing our makers praise. So obviously super racist. That's just classic mounduer myth. You know, you know, Americans who came to the new world wanted to displace and kill the Native Americans needing some awful story to justify their barbarism. Um, you know, that that's all that that that is, right, Julia? Yeah. I just I also want to point out that that the the same language is reflected in the Book of Mormon that they were that they were idol that they were savage that they were that that they they moved to and fro like they that they didn't have a settlement they didn't have like all this is like showing the Book of Mormon is very racist like don't take like even like look at the descriptions of the people who have this curse of skin of blackness and how they describe them and that is incredibly racist. Now now the one thing I'm not Go ahead Nemo. I was going to say we'll get to it. We'll get to it slightly later, but um in the Book of Mormon reader, which we'll talk about, um it says the Lamemonites became lazy and would not work. And it just has a picture of very clearly Native Americanl looking people um looking idle and scratching armpits, right? You can see it just there. Yeah. And they're constantly stealing flocks from the the Nephites because they didn't they didn't have the uh desire to do it themselves to tend these flocks themselves. this just throughout the whole Book of Mormon is this Native Americans are lazy, dark, thieves, losome, you know, disgusting, gross. Now, the one thing, Julia, I'm not seeing in in this hymn, oh, stop and tell me red man, is anything about dark skin being a curse or Well, so the curse So, and that's a good point. So, the curse was also in the early days of the church, the the curse of red skin was also interchangeable with the curse of black skin. it wasn't quite as used as much, but even Fawn Brody points to that as well that this curse of red skin. And so, but as again I'll I'll say this again that Joseph Smith and all the early saints, every Native American that they saw, they were Lammonites. They with red skin, black skin, whatever, they they were all Lammonites. And so, yes, you're right that this one doesn't point specifically to Lammonites, but that's what they're talking about. Yeah. Red man, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess it's a good thing the church pulled that out of the hipp, right? And can we just can we just look at what that hymn's called? Sacred hymns. This is considered sacred. This behav this language, this way of talking about Native Americans is considered sacred. That was their most sacred text, the Book of Mormon. It has these same things. But my my I guess I'm just getting that, you know, you can't say, "Oh, that's just a hymn." These are sacred hymns. Oh, yeah. These are important. We need to know. Okay. Okay. Um yeah, I just Googled when was this hymn removed from the LDS church's hymn book and my first query uh says that it was there until 1919. So this hymn made it as a ba basically for 90 years 85 90 years this was sung as a sacred hymn of the Mormon church. This hymn, oh stop and tell me Redmond, could have been sung in general conference. It's like eligible to be sung in general conference and in sacrament meetings worldwide for well that's why they have these hymns is so that they can sing them in in the in their sacred when they do their the sacrament and things like that. Singing hymns is an act of worship, you know, in the LDS church. It's important. Crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So this next So this next slide is about Chief Kiauk. And I was just in Nauvoo and I learned a little bit more about Chief K equipment, but maybe we'll read it first before I say what I learned. And so I'll read this one. So this is in 1841. So despite the lack of interest among the Native Americans, Joseph Smith still maintained the vision that the Lammonites would predominate. This is according to the historian Matthew Garrett. In 1841, the Indian chief Kakook and Kakuk is is also a town next to or across the river from Nauvoo. They named it after Kakuk. Um the Indian chief kakook with about 50 of his followers met with Joseph Smith in front of the Nauvoo temple and smoked the pice of and smoked the pipe of peace together. Joseph made a speech there in front of the in front of the natives and the multitude that had gathered as published in the Warsaw Signal in 1841. The prophet made a speech to the warrior in the presence of the assembled multitude in which he depicted in glowing colors and enthusiastic strain and enthusiastic strain the wonders of the great temple, the mysteries of the Book of Mormon and the glorious times that they will have together in these latter days and the latter day city which that which they were going to inherit. And so again, he's talking about how the he still has this mindset of them inheriting the land and then being leaders in the church and things like that. So I also found out visiting I visited the the natural or excuse me the Nauvoo Historical Society and she point the the leader the the woman over at the historical society she pointed out that Chief Kakook had blue eyes. And so I wonder if one of the reasons that I just this is just speculation. I wonder if Joseph Smith saw Chief Kakook as having the the curse partly removed. And this is just speculation just because of how he looked how he was like he wasn't as dark and he had blue eyes. um because that's reflective in the later history where we'll see um Spencer Kimell where he'll stand up and say that the native children are changing colors, they're becoming whiter and uh therefore they're more righteous or more um accepting of the gospel and things like that. So I just thought that was interesting this image of I haven't had really pictured this before. Joseph Smith standing in front of the Nauvoo Temple with his chief and they're smoking this pipe together and he's teaching him about the Book of Mormon. Of course, the Kakook was not receptive. they were kinder to them than some of the other Native Americans. They let them trade and sell their land or take some of their land. Um, but anyway, I just thought that was an interesting image that that of this whole thing. Yeah. And if you fast forward to 2024, Native Americans are inheriting nothing, you know, except for maybe casino rights in the United States. Like, like none of that prophecy is coming true as far as I know. Am I wrong? No, I think you're very right that I couldn't I don't know what this whole casino thing is, but yeah, assume you're correct. Okay, so Herardo's power just went out and he dropped off, but we're kind of Are we at the end of this this part one of the series? Yeah. So, we've at least covered we've at least covered the slides that I had up until Joseph Smith's death. And then after that is when Brigham Y. Young takes over. And and so tell me tell me if I'm telling out. So Julia, what I've learned so far from part one of today's episode is that there was no confusion with Joseph Smith, WW Phelps, Oliver Calry, Martin Harris, etc. as to number one who the Lammonites were. They were any dark-skinned Native American from North America to Central America all the way down to South America. That they were all Lamemonites. that they were all cursed with dark skin because of the wickedness that if the white Mormon missionaries wanted to take a few squas on the side as polygamous wives, they were allowed um but that to help them turn white to and that right and that by mixing with the righteous adopted seed of Israel meaning Mormon white European converts from Western Europe that that's the only way that the this curse would be lifted so that their skins could turn whiteness like the pure driven snow. And that that was the understanding and that the and that it was literal dark skin. It wasn't painting. It wasn't tattoos. And it wasn't animal hair, at least up until the death of Joseph Smith. and that whenever they wanted to use Native Americans in the scriptures to to hide some sort of shady real estate scam, they would then invoke Indian names as a way to deceive the members and try and put as much shady behavior on Indians and Native Americans. Is that is that what we've learned from today's episode so far? I feel like that's accurate. I feel like the this I feel like it's safe to say that the the idea that the Native Americans were Lammonites was held in Mormonism up until probably 2002, probably very recently until those DNA studies comes out. And we're going to show that in our history or in this in these presentations. Maybe that's a little too early, but at least but at least later into the 1900s, and I'm pretty sure I or 1990s. I feel like it's accurate to say until those studies came out in the early 2000s. But I also want to say that and Dan Vogle points this out really well in his book um Indian origins in the Book of Mormon where when Joseph Smith was coming up with the idea of the Book of Mormon when he was when when he was translating the Book of Mormon, one of the questions in his culture was where did the Native Americans come from? Who are they? People wondered if they were the last the last 10 tribes people wondered if they came from the Tower of Babel and they were just trying to figure out the origin of them. And there was a lot of scholarly debates. Everything was being all these things were being published in Joseph Smith's area. the Pelmyra reflector, the newspapers around him. And so, Joseph, when he when he translate the Book of Mormon, translates the Book of Mormon, um Oliver Cowry and some of the other followers were like, "Finally, we have an answer to these questions that everyone is asking of where do these lame where do these Native Americans come from?" And then, of course, they Joseph Smith says that they came from Jerusalem and then also from the Tower of Babel because there's two groups that come over into the Americas at different times. And so, people just saw the Joseph Smith's book as as as answering that question or bridging that gap of understanding. And so I just think that was really interesting to see that Joseph Smith was trying to answer these questions that were being asked, right? What did you want to add to the summary? Oh, no. I I was just saying that according to the notes I've taken throughout your summary was pretty accurate. I think that's where we're at at the moment. And I'm I'm looking forward to now looking at how the church will try and shift its narrative moving forward and and um and see what shifting sands that this narrative is kind of built upon as things change and develop. and then ultimately comparing that to what apologists then try and tell us prophets actually meant. Yeah. And so as a precursor to the next episode, I'll talk about the change a little bit. Um so Brigham Young because the natives weren't joining the church and because they're having so much conflict with with Native Americans, he kind of changes his mindset and the saints do as well that they they don't see them as like noble savages savages anymore. They see them, which is the their words in their culture. Um they see them they see them as as just savages. They see them as just people you have to correct people. you have to change this group of people that you have to colonize and that was Brigham Y. Young and that seemed to be carried forward throughout the 1900s and then even with the Indian student placement program and all these other things that we're going to talk about is that there is a shift from the Mormon mindset of Native Americans or laymanites to what to after Brigham Young or to during Brigham Y Young. Yeah. Because like Joseph Smith was all about, you know, oh, you're going to inherit this. This book was for you. It's actually our job to kind of get you guys on board with this whole movement um and help you realize your heritage. It seems like Brigham Young's much more of an attitude of right, we're going to beat you into submission and make you accept this, right? Going to blame you for massacres. And one thing that we'll we'll be talking about, and this is I know this is a sensitive topic, but the the Mormons were were very much a part of of the slave trade in Utah. And the Mormons bought and sold women and children, or I shouldn't say sold, but they bought women and children as part of the slave trade. They thought that they were doing good um when in reality it probably it wasn't. Uh they're being involved in tra human trafficking. And you're saying American women and children, right? Native excuse me. Yes. Native American women and children that they're they're buying them up. Um and and then uh getting rid of their culture, making them part of the church, and yeah. Yeah. That's what we're going to be talking about next time, too. So, just to give a preview for what we're going to be talking about. Yeah. And I'll just ask any of you who are in contact with Neil Rapali or Jasmine Rapali or any of the people at Book of Mormon Central, make Tik Toks about this. Explain stop. Oh, stop and tell me red man. Explain or whatever in the Doctrine and Covenants. explain how Joseph Smith clearly viewed um Native Americans as laymanites, as cursed with actual skin that then would turn white when they had sex with polygamous, you know, Mormon white missionaries. Explain that in your Tik Toks. explained that in your YouTube channels instead of accusing sort of like blaming the members for bringing quote presentist uh assumptions uh you know to their interpretation of the Book of Mormon text of the word skin. Yeah, of the word skin. How about how about blaming Joseph Smith and all of the leaders of the day for telling us exactly what these words meant at the time they were writing them and teaching about them. Explain that Book of Mormon Central uh you know Jasmine and Neil Rapoli. I think that would be more honest and would be more um integrous than to be making up these uh from the hip interpretations and justifications that that are really not just um deceptive and undermine prophetic authority for like 150 years, but also are insulting to all the Native Americans from the beginning of the church to now that have suffered insults and injust justices as a result of these teachings. Yeah. Gauntlet thrown down. Pick it up, please. Yeah. All right. I have nothing to add. Okay. Yeah. See you in the next episode. Well, Julia, thank you for uh organizing this. Thank you for picking up Mike's mantle with LDS Discussions. And Nemo, thanks for your wit and wisdom and insight and continuity in in these episodes. I am the the continuous thread. That's awesome. And uh and yeah, uh check out Nemo the Mormon YouTube channel. Nemo, you continue to do great work. Oh, thank you. And check out Analyzing Mormonism, Julia's Tik Tok and Instagram channels as well. Thank you. All right. Well, we'll uh we we'll uh we want to thank you all for joining us today on Mormon Stories podcast and um remind you that the LDS discussion series is like 50x 55 episodes in. You can uh consume them as their own standalone episodes on Spotify as its own branded podcast LDS discussions. Same with Apple Podcasts. And we also have a YouTube playlist dedicated to LDS discussions with millions, I believe millions and millions of views at this point. It's been one of the most successful series or or projects Mormon Stories has ever done. We want to thank Mike for um kicking it off and making it happen. Um and then of course we want to thank all the donors to the Open Stories Foundation who make all this possible. We pay all the participants here. So we need your ongoing financial support to make it all possible. So, if you value this series, if you want to see continue and you're not already a donor to Mormon Stories and the Open Stories Foundation, please go to morstories.org. We've renovated our website, click on the donate button, become a monthly donor, and we'll be able to keep doing these episodes. Uh, all right. Thanks, Julia. Thanks, Herardo. Um, who had to go, we excuse him. Thanks Nemo. And we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast and LDS discussions. Take care everybody.