Skin of Blackness - The Mormon Curse
Original Air Date: 2024-09-06
This video, an episode of the Mormon Stories Podcast titled "Skin of Blackness: Book of Mormon Curse," features host John Dehlin and a panel including Julia Sanders, Nemo the Mormon, and Gerardo. The episode serves as a critique of modern apologetic arguments—specifically those presented by Jasmine Rappleye of Scripture Central—which claim that the "skin of blackness" mentioned in the Book of Mormon refers to tattoos, paint, or animal skins rather than actual skin pigmentation 1, 2, 3.
The panel argues that the LDS Church is currently "moving the goalposts" to distance itself from past racism, despite over a century of prophets explicitly teaching that the curse was literal dark skin 4, 2.
Historical Teachings on Skin Color (19th & 20th Centuries)
The video provides a timeline of evidence demonstrating that church leaders consistently interpreted the "curse" as biological dark skin and believed it could be removed through righteousness or intermarriage:
Lamanite Identity and Educational Materials
The panel highlights how the Church actively instilled this racial identity in Native American and Latin American members:
The Shift: DNA Evidence and Changing Text
The video details how scientific advancements forced a change in the Church's narrative:
Modern Obfuscation and "Gaslighting"
The panel argues that current Church materials attempt to hide past teachings rather than disavow them:
Conclusion
The hosts conclude that apologists like Jasmine Rappleye are engaging in "bad, poorly researched, disingenuous" arguments by suggesting the "skin of blackness" was merely paint or tattoos 2. The panel contends that while the Church allows these new theories to circulate to pacify liberal members, it refuses to officially apologize or correct the historical record because doing so would undermine the authority of past prophets who taught the racism as doctrine 24, 25. They emphasize that for generations of members, "skin meant skin" and "black meant black" 4.
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hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon stories podcast I'm your host John delin it's uh Wednesday July 31st 2024 and today we are going to be talking about uh The Book of Mormon the Mormon Church's most sacred scripture it's teachings about God cursing Native Americans with the skin of Blackness and specifically this is part of a multi-part series uh of the LDS discussions uh Series so on Mormon stories podcast we have been covering Mormon church truth claims with a panel of thoughtful and humorous and uh cool guests and um we're about 50 episodes in you can check us out on other platforms but uh we're in the middle of a series on discussing the Mormon Church's evolving narrative around trying to justify make excuses for um handwave away uh the Mormon Church's long-standing teachings from its most sacred text the book of Mormon that God curses people with dark skin because of wickedness so that they will be perceived as loathsome to white people and that's what the Book of Mormon says last episode in this LDS discussion series we talked about how Joseph Smith and all the um top church leaders around him throughout the 19th century were very clear on uh the fact that skin means skin black means black or dark curse means uh God God did it and um and that it was the L lamanites or the Native Americans who were the subject of the specific curse referred to in the Book of Mormon so we talked about that as a foundation last episode this episode we're going to be talking about how in the 20th century the Mormon church is trying to move the goalposts change the narrative uh as Society becomes less and less tolerant of blatant grotesque racism was that a neutral unbiased introduction panel I just I thought I thought that was great well as you could hear I'll say it depends on who you ask how about you hero you're you're the subject of the curse I mean you know it was pretty fair to me that's that's well you're the authority the the chief producer and researcher for today's episode we have back Julia Sanders also known as analyzing Mormonism on Tik Tok and Instagram hey Julia Hi how are you feeling about today I'm good okay we're excited uh for you to be doing this and carrying on the tradition of Mike who can't join us over the Summers we wish Mike a good summer he's the author of the LDS discussions essays at LDS discussions. comom and whenever it's not summer we love having Mike join us but I can't say we're trading down have herard uh in Mike's Place herard welcome back of course is I was gonna make a joke and say you're a resident layite is that offensive it's not offensive no no I'm okay being called a Layon knite okay well the church doesn't want you called a layite these days yeah rard you're from Mexico and so you feel passionately about this issue is that right yeah for sure all right and Nemo are you lonite I don't even know what to call you uh I don't know I I've been called many things over the years um I'm not a lonite no I I'm we used to get excited whenever the Book of Mormon mentioned the Isles of the sea oh because we're a you know an island nation obviously uh so yeah we get excited whenever the Isles of the Sea comes up so you're a junior Islander basically sort of yeah quite an important Island as it goes I mean as as far as Islands go right yeah I mean for as as far as Islands go the UK is you know is pretty cool it's it's all right um Nemo also uh of course is the is the lead and host on Nemo the Mormon YouTube channel check them out they do great work all right well I gave a bit of an intro Julia but uh this is part two anything else you want to add or take away from the intro I think your in ruction was really good I think so like last time we talked about just the establishment they knew exactly who the Lites were and they sent missionaries there there was no confusion um you know dark skin was dark skin like the actual skin color and so that's just we're going to be talking about how th those that same view stayed this stayed remained and then it slowly shifted so we're going to talk about that shift how the church is basically moving the goal post yeah exactly all right let's jump in yeah so I I still want to about because we're really responding to to Jasmine I'm not going to say her last name correctly rapal yes from scripture Central or scripture Plus on her Tik Tok so I wanted to start off with another clip from her from her YouTube channel and for those who don't know she's one of the I don't know Millennium or gen Z apologists in 2024 that's uh sort of the front person for really bad poorly researched disingenuous apologetic responses to embarrassing Mormon church problems around his truth claim is that fair how do how you really feel John but it's also her husband Neil who helps write this um this stuff and I'm sure researchers of the BYU that are paid six figures by the church to come up with this stuff all right go ahead Julie okay so now I'll show the clip all right for a lot of people the book Mormon can become uncomfortable when we read about a group of people called the lamanites being cursed and a skin of blackness coming upon them to a modern audience this sounds not great many have gone so far as to call the Book of Mormon racist but here's the thing based on the best scholarship we have lonite skin of Blackness is probably not at all what it sounds like and we went through hundreds of pages of scholarship to make this video and we found that there are several things that the skin of Blackness could be that aren't skin and you've probably never even heard of the three we'll be talking about today so in this video we're going to be breaking down exactly what the Book of Mormon says on this topic we'll then go over the different possibilities for the skin of Blackness from an ancient perspective we're GNA show how the book Mormon is not racist but carries an incred oh sorry she got cut off on the end she carries an incredibly inclusive message I think is how she finishes her yeah for a book that is literally all about essentially two groups of people otherizing each other throughout the entire book it's incredibly inclusive yeah herard well I just I don't even know that we gave you a chance to respond to this but like someone who was told they were a lonite from their birth someone who was raised in the church someone who read the book of Mormon served a Mormon mission was probably proud to identify as a lonite throughout your life before you realized kind of what it really meant how does it now feel to have Jasmine rapali and Neil rapali and Mormon apologists tell you that they really didn't mean skin but instead they meant paint or tattoos or animal skins I'm just curious what your emotional and intellectual reactions are to hearing that apologetic um well yeah I I'll say two things about um how I felt growing up being told that I was a lonite I think uh while I think there is a a sense of feeling uh pride of of being a lay or a descendant of of Lehi there's also this added layer to it um that kind of tells you you know that uh the um where your Consciousness knows that your dark skin is a sign of a curse that was given to your ancestors and that you're never going to be as good or as righteous as the white people in Salt Lake I think that's how maybe some some of these feelings while while they're not communicated I think that's how a lot of um Mexicans Latter-Day Saints would feel about it um because obviously when we look at at what the leadership looks like in Salt Lake and who's running the church it's always white people and the Book of Mormon talks really clearly that you know white skin is associated with righteousness um so and you know and that and that it was going to be the gentles who who were going to run the the church in the latter days because the lonit had had lost their their chance because of their wickedness so um so yeah it is kind of complicated so I don't know hearing the this this and and I'll say this I went on my mission in 20 2013 when at least uh then the narrative was still that and I said my mission Mexico The Narrative was still that we were all going to go and convert lay my nights in Mexico and that's what we taught that when I went to uh people's home as a missionary and knock under doors we would say that this is a book written by by their ancestors and you know the the um and that's one of the reasons why they should care about the Book of Mormon so um so hearing now that that that rhetoric is being uh changed or Shi shifting um in the US at least I don't think the memo has has gotten to Mexico I'm pretty sure uh but it's obviously due to you know the modern sensitivities of what these scriptures mean when when we're associating dark skin with with a curse I'm glad we're having those conversations I I think it's a little bit um um not you know dishonest to to try to say that you know like the Book of Mormon doesn't mean skin and doesn't mean dark and doesn't need mean black and doesn't mean a curse when that's clearly what has been taught for for many many years so all those Layon nightes in Mexico and Central and South America do have they ever heard of the idea that when the book of Morman says skin of Blackness it means tattoos animal skin or paint is that have you ever heard that anywhere ever no I I I don't think I think if you went to do a survey in Mexico today and and I'm you know I have a lot of family in Mexico my my my dad my my family are in leadership in Mexico so I'm pretty confident about what I'm about to say I think if you were to do a survey today in Mexico about what um about if they've ever heard this rhetoric this new rhetoric about um you know paints and tattoos and and what a skin of Blackness really mean I think most members in Mexico wouldn't have ever heard this rhetoric U Tau to them okay and I think I think it's dangerous when we just start redefining words like I've just done a quick search for the word sin in scripture for example and you go to like uh Alma 4516 the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance well Lord didn't really mean sin did he um God's actually kind of okay with sin the church would be immediately running to whoever's espousing that narrative to shut this down and go no no sin is what we tell you sin is and we can't have you saying that God's okay with sin blah blah blah um it's the same thing but except for the Church isn't running to shut these people down they're actually sponsoring these people because it's convenient to the church's uh position that people in Mexico aren't aware that the narrative has changed north of the Border perhaps you know they're not aware that that shift and that's convenient to the church because if they don't need to upset the apple cart down there if they let people feel special feel like their descendants of the people of the Book of Mormon Etc then they'll just let that happen um it's it's all it seems to me it's all about sort of narrative control and control over the story wait John you mentioned this before but do we know for sure if the church is funding scripture Plus or scripture Central I'm pretty sure it's through the mor good foundation or did a video we actually we actually made an episode a couple years ago where we found uh donations directly from the LDS church to book Mormon Central oh that was the only one uh the only apist organization plus more good foundation where we could find like where the LDS church is directly giving hundreds of thousands in donations to um to Book of Mormon Central and I'm pretty sure I remember a a recording of a Jeffrey R Holland talk where he fundraises specifically for Book of Mormon Central and these types of nonprofits it's a way it's a way for the Mormon church to fund really bad um dishonest shoddy scholarly um responses that are misleading but to do it at Arms length so that they can't be held accountable for the dishonesty yeah yeah I was going to say because in their manuals which we're going to show they kind of the church kind of takes the they're adopting this theory that it's uh just symbolism it's just a symbolic um skin of Blackness so it does seem like it's an arm an arms length away to say that it's paint or tattoos or or dark coats so yeah thought that was super interesting but before we get to that let's have a look at the history let's do it right okay so right now we're talking about the history from Brigham Young up to the 1900s oh whoops because we covera Smith in last time yeah exactly okay perfect Nemo do you want to talk about this one sure absolutely buy up the children May 12th 1851 in the journal history of the church from May 12th 1851 Brigham Young advised the people to buy up the lonite children as fast as they could and educate them and teach them the gospel so that not many generations would pass a they would become white and delightsome people he remarked that the Lord could not have devised a better plan than to put the Saints where they were in order to accomplish the Redemption of the lamanites uh and Wilford woodruff's Journal also reflects the same language yeah so as we established last time with Joseph Smith that they had no doubt that the that the Native Americans were lamanites and here we we're seeing there's a history this isn't this isn't the focus of this episode but there's a history of the Mormons being involved in human trafficking where they're buying up these so Native Americans were selling Native Americans and then they of course the members of the church called them lamanites where he this is what he's referring to he says to buy up the lonite children as fast as you can and we can um colonize them we can educate them we can make them members of the church and things like that so this God why would God tell a prophet to buy children in in the in the 19 century this is the same God that told that that told prophets to marry other men's wives so or not a God that respects the autonomy of individuals yeah I me the Saints were also using the Bible to to explain slavery or to justify slavery so go I don't know it's just yeah wasn't it Brigham Young that said as far as a man understands the Crypt scriptures uh correctly he will um uphold slavery something like that exactly and then also you know we should just mention this this comes out in our series on um you know second class Saints by by Matt Harris but the you know this book it's so good um there's several quotes where 20 Century Mormon prophets continually talk about the the lamanites and even AFC Mormons of African descent when they become faithful their skin lightning becoming white turning from dark skin to light skin if they're worthy and and you know it looks like spenc Kimble Came Upon it honestly because there it is they would become a white and delightsome people so all that Mary Peterson Spence de Kimble racism of the 20th century dates at least back to brigam Young in in the 1850s where he's saying the dark skin will become white and delightsome and that doesn't just come from Joseph Smith that comes from the Book of Mormon itself but he's not talking about paint being removed with paint thinner he's not talking about the animal clothes taken off or the tattoos removed he's talking about skin isn't he right and then we'll talk about more today and we talked about it yesterday where Joseph Smith had he was giving Revelations about marrying up the lamanites marrying up the Native Americans in which case that would help change the skin color and you don't you don't marry somebody to change skin color if it's a tattoo or paint or a coat like that's just not that how that works okay brilliant great find jul okay so there's another one about the gadat and robbers um herard do you want to read this one sure in Wilford Wood's own journal he also quotes bringham young as saying this Indians were the descendants of the old ganton Rober robbers who infested these mountains for more than a thousand years and that was just a couple days after the first one so it's May 16th of 1851 so in the Book of Mormon the gadan robbers are the this group of lonit that break off and they're like even more wicked and they're even like more terrible and so bamy is associating these these Native Americans these Indians to gadan robbers and so that's just another reiteration to John's point about you know what kind of person is like buying up children Etc um one of the keys to being able to do that is to dehumanize people and using language like infested uh goes a long way to dehumanizing individuals so saying that they you know they're they're the descendants of those who infested the mountains um is definitely putting these people on a on a almost subhuman sort of place yeah that's a really good point to dehumanize them yeah okay so this next one is briam Young um John do you want to read this one absolutely so this is briam young again 1852 throughout early Mormon history the words lonite and Native American or Indian were all the same or I'd say interchangeable so in 1852 briam young instructed the Saints on interracial marriage with the Native Americans and that by so doing the curse would be removed quote we are now going to the lamanites to whom we intend to be messengers of instruction we will show them that in consequence of their transgressions a curse has been inflicted upon them in the darkness of their skins notice it doesn't say tattoos animal hair or paint it says darkness of skins uh that's for Jasmine and Neil and their friends we will have intermarriages with them they marrying our young women and we taking their young squa to wife I wonder if the young squa get to consent to that anyway by these means it is the will of the Lord that the curse of their color shall be removed and they restor to their pristine Beauty now that's gross in 12 different ways and offensive but I'm I'm confused about something Julia because my understanding is Brigham Young was not a fan of interracial marriage and that that was one of the reasons he implemented the priesthood ban on those of African descent from the beginning however now that I think about it maybe Brigham Young only hated interracial marriage with people of African descent yep he was okay with inter interracial marriage of Indian descent and I want to know why he was okay with some dark people but not okay with other dark people raing his hand but Julia first jul I'm sorry I was just gonna say that um from our last episode Joseph Smith is pushing this narrative he's like marry up the lamanites marry up the Native Americans and so I wonder if like I wonder if briam young would just had that mindset like Joseph Smith said it was okay he received this Revelation from God and he's not gonna he's not going to change that so that's just my first thought Bima what were you gonna say well think about the book that that Joseph Smith didn't teach a ton from but this part of the church this era of the church now we're teaching a lot more from the book of right um it's is a book about the lonit and the pride and the Nephites and the pride cycle the Lites are redeemed and then they fall and then they're redeemed and then they fall so this charge from bringham Young is go and redeem the lamanites go and bring them to the right part of the pride cycle again go and bring them back to the part where they're righteous with God go do that the difference is people of black uh of African descent are cursed with the curse of Cain which is a very different curse it was a curse who was put upon someone who did something so awful uh fratricide they killed their brother um that there's no Redemption from that would be possibly part of the argument right that's a different curse it's not part of a cycle of righteousness and fall and righteousness and fall that the lonit were involved in I I think the point of um Matt Harris's book and what we have been covering John for for this all the episodes that we recorded with him um is that the racis the racism of the Brethren against people of African descent is on a way on a different level than racism against other races and you'll remember I mean bringham young didn't try to take the prood away from Native Americans um and but he did for black black people so it is it is um it is obvious that that the racism there was was different and then and then if we we think about you know how BYU was really PRI uh um proud of having people for from multiple um countries like Asia and and Hispanic countries but then they would purposely not allow black uh black people from African descent into into the university you know it's clear that that the racism against black people of African descent has always been on a different level than people of other races as far as the Mormon church is concerned I think that's excellent to point out I also wonder if because he's talking about marriage specifically I also wonder if Brigham Young because he knows it's not skin it's not coats or tattoos or paint or whatever I think he I wonder if he's trying to say the only way to get this curse removed and to turn their skin white is to marry them and so like I just wonder if that's maybe where he's coming from but but yeah this you're right herard I think you're totally right about that the the racism is on a totally different level with people of African descent because you have to go deeper than that because you could make that same argument for you know people of African descent you could say well marry them and then their skin will become lighter that doesn't that the the I guess some of the broader point here is that it's not logical right so racism isn't particularly logical we're very good at making excuses for it because we feel a certain way about a group of people but ultimately there will be post Haw Logic for why it's okay to say if you marry someone of African descent you you should be beheaded on the spot and your children killed as as I believe Brigham Young said but a different type of Darker skin is fine and they'll be using the scriptural justification some of the points I kind of pointed to about the Book of Mormon Etc But ultimately there isn't really any logic to it Beyond they have a feeling that black people of African desent are worse and that's just that's just going to come through yeah and and I'm I'm I I don't know my American history at all but obviously prior to 1864 we we were enslaving at a minimum Africans for you know primarily agricultural work I know that they were Native American slaves but don't get the sense that Native American slavery in the 19th century or even 18th century was anywhere as prevalent as African slavery I I but I don't know if what the differences might have been in terms of volume or legality well there was never segregation for um like in America for for Native Americans and I mean I think Native Native Americans chose to uh stay in their reservations uh but but there was never like okay like we're going to have schools for Native Americans and schools for white people but there wasn't a slave trade where like I where frontiersmen would go into reservations kidnap that's right children and then sell them into slavery correct I think there was some of that um and I think Julia um did some research on that for a later episode okay at least in is that right Julia yeah yeah I will at least say there's this book here it's called um the other slavery excuse me it's by I can't say his name Andreas rendes oh okay he's a great historian but he he's he I think his numbers were that maybe half the amount of of so you have the the those of African descent who are slaves and then you have the Native Americans who are slaves and I think he was speculated that it maybe half the amount I can't remember how many millions were were enslaved but but he gives good numbers and good research so but yeah that we can definitely do that for a different episode as well but yeah okay all right okay so there's another one by bam young this is in 1854 this is from the Journal of discourses and he's speaking about the curse of Cain or he he spoke about the curse of Cain and now he's going to talk about this other curse from the book Mormon he says here are the lamanites another example they began to thirst for each other's blood and massacred each other from generation to generation until they sunk into wickedness and evil principles the most degrading and have become lome and vile still the curse will be removed from them before it will be removed from the children of Judah and they will become a white and delightsome people so they're first in the pecking order to get their curse removed right that okay that's what yeah loathsome and vile yeah and these and as I mentioned before these are the this is the same language that was used in the Book of Mormon that describing the Layon nightes that is that's how he's seeing these Native Americans but we see we seen a transition here if we follow the narrative we've seen a transition from the days of Joseph Smith where uh okay these are the people of the Book of Mormon and we need to bring them the gospel because they need to understand who they are and they need to then take their place in the church and you know like this book is for them to here are these Savages these vile people who are the bad guys in our book and they're the bad guys now and we need to fix them exactly the narrative is changing in that sort of downward trory yes I'm glad you pointed that out yeah it's just horrific language for somebody that claims to be a special witness of Christ um you know a a prophet of God it's just horrific language it is yeah yeah for very old testament God isn't it it's very you know fire and brimstone and not very love one another yeah yeah so there's another quote here by Wilford Woodruff Nemo do you want to read this one Y come swallow more water so Wilford Woodruff in April on April 7th 1877 the lonit on this continent suffered a similar experience they went to war against the Nephites they thirsted for blood and they painted themselves red and the Lord put a curse of redness upon them hundreds of years have passed since then but wherever you meet the lamanites today you see that Mark upon them so this one might seem a little bit controversial because it seems to be supporting some of these ideas about this paint idea of reframing the skin of Blackness and there is a part in the Book of Mormon but wolf w is getting it wrong I don't know R you want to talk about that with the amoc sites uh yeah well we're going to talk about in The Next Episode we're gonna uh go over the scriptures in the Book of Mormon um and there's this specific scripture where the Book of Mormon talking about the amyes and it's actually really interesting because he's distinguishing between the lamanites and the amyes and he's saying that the lemonides were cursed with a dark skin uh but the amyes when they uh wanted to become part of the Layman nightes what they did is put a a mark uh a red mark on them to kind of uh you know distinguish themselves as being rebellious and part of the lonit and you know apologist will say well see here are the alites are painting themselves so that could also apply to the lamanites so it's kind of interesting here uh that um that Wilford wood is kind of getting those confused in my opinion because the the ones that Mark themselves with a red mark on their foreheads were the Amit not the Nephi not the lemones but yeah and I will say that as I mentioned before the the Saints also called it a skin of or a curse of redness because they saw the natives as having red skin rather than black and so that could be another reiteration but he's also pointing out that the Lord put this the curse of redness upon them and so that's just the same language as the Book of Mormon in my view and then he says if you meet a lonite or a Native American you see the mark upon them and of course not all these Native Americans had paint or tattoos or coats so it's just kind of a silly idea but yeah we'll talk about that more in a scriptural sense in the next epode that's the important of the comma and you know they pained themselves red comma and the Lord put a curse of redness upon them interchangeable there for for skin of Blackness and anywhere wherever you meet them you see that Mark upon them so it's very generalistic very Universal there right exactly it's obvious that Lites or Native Americans were not putting a mark upon them wherever you meet them or wherever will Drew was meeting them so this this kind of debunks the idea that this is something they're doing to themselves right because wford woodu is telling the members that they're gonna be able to see the mark that the Lord Lord put up upon them right right okay so there's another one here from Wilford Woodruff uh herard do you want to read this one yeah uh Wilford wood 1881 in volume 22 of the Journal of this discourses Wilford wood taught that quote the lamanites now a down truen people are a remnant of the House of Israel The Curse Of God has followed them as it has done the Jews though the Jews have not been darkened in their skin as have the lamanites holy Jesus like that's ridiculously obvious yeah darkened in their skin right and yeah Curse Of God yeah and and this is why some apologists feel the need to attack the uh the Journal of discourses because it is just so full of these things that show very clearly what leaders of the time believed and taught um they they're pretty Kryptonite esque for modern apologetic claims that oh that was never taught or that was never believed there it is I kind of I kind of see why sometimes people go the Snuffer route or the fundamentalist route because who is Jasmine and Neil rapali who are they to reinterpret the words of Wilford Woodruff or Brigham Young or Joseph Smith like and so when the church and its apologists start trying to handwave the narrative dishonestly a a conservative member is going to just read those words and say we're an apostasy words mean what they say they mean in general yeah yeah I don't know we're all speaking the same form of English right the English language hasn't changed that much since the late 1800s I mean your language is a little dodgy Nemo yeah very [Laughter] true all right so now we're gonna we're moving in from the to the 1900s and to the 1980s um we're probably up to the present day and this is a point where the church starts to like sort of change things right this is where the church starts to go uh um Archaeology is not supporting us the way we thought it would and um generally we're in a bit of trouble narratively about the historicity of these things I mean we should do a plug here for shanon Cole World montes's episode with you John right uh on the secret Mormon meetings yeah early 1900s yeah yep and just to give those who are not Mormon or who are Orthodox Mormon and never actually learned your actual history of your church um you know in the turn of the Cent between the 19th and the 20th century Mormon started you know going to graduate school and early Apostles started and general authori started reading science BH Roberts the church historian General Authority was one and there were several Apostles like James Z talage and John wistow and others who believed that the Earth was billions of years old they believed the dinosaurs were real they believed that there was no Global flood they believed um that uh you know the archaeologically and AR archaeology and geology and anthropology were real sciences and and thus they started to inspect the Book of Mormon based on what we knew about science and and like you said Nemo by 1822 there's the secret Mormon meeting we'll have Julia include this in the show notes there's a secret Mormon meeting where basically all the general authorities of the Mormon Church get together Salt Lake City and acknowledge that the Book of Mormon doesn't align with modern science modern AR archaeology and and anthropology and people like Jamesy Tage who was an apostle we about to show were on the side of science not in terms of believing the Book of Mormon wasn't credible but in terms of having significant concerns about the historicity of the Book of Mormon and we know that BH Roberts himself likely lost his testimony that the Book of Mormon was a historical document by the end of his life and we'll include links to those episodes so you can view them but that's a little context for this quote you're about to show Julia yeah actually John do you want to read this quote sure yeah so this is James E talage 1917 five years before the secret Mormon meetings of 1922 uh he linked the Layman nightes to the American Indians quote the Nephites followed a progressive life cultivated the useful arts and made record of the more important facts of their history okay really quick Who's laughing and why why are you laughing they're not Mozart right this is not this is not the Renaissance like he's he's painting it that way to try and make Layon nightes look unsophisticated dirty Savage etc etc he like these were basic agricultural societies no matter which way you swing it this is you know this is not da Vinci were you laughing Julia I was laughing at Nemo because I think it's kind of funny well I also think it's worth noting and that's why we encourage you all to watch these LDS discussions episodes in sequence all talage is doing is is reiterating the the mound builder myth which was the super racist myth that it couldn't have been these quote dark Savages that we were annihilating and displacing as Western American colonists it couldn't be that these dark Savages developed all these sophisticated mounds and artwork and culture and civilization domesticated foods like tomatoes and beans and corn there's no way these dark Savages that we were killing and committing genocide upon did this amazing work it must have been a wh- skinned version of them because nothing good can come from darkskinned people and it's a little bit disappointing to see Jamesy toage kind of reiterating uh this 17th 18th century Trope uh against Native Americans but we digress um so Tage writes part of uh part of the nephite record is before the world today in modern translation as the Book of Mormon the lamanites followed a nomadic career and came to depend almost entirely upon War and the chase for subsistence they generated as to the usages of civilization and under the specific Curse Of God developed a dark Ruddy skin their bited descendants were found by Columbus and are today known as the American Indians and I just Julie I know you probably have things to say I just want to say Nemo what were Europeans eating in the 1600s was were there Tomatoes were there corn were there green peppers in Europe in the 1600s we didn't have chocolate exactly you didn't have chocolate you didn't have corn you didn't have tomatoes beans guess who developed that it wasn't these nomadic wandering Savages of North America it was the freaking Mayans and the Aztecs that were cultivating these crops in very sophisticated ways while Europeans were eating GRL and most of them still are eating GRL right Nemo gr but we have we have what hang on hang on I the idea that we're eating salty meat pies I didn't mean gr I'm sorry overs salted meat pies that's what I meant oh did you mean waxy bad chocolate is that what you were talking about Nemo he's just digging his own grave now like the Aztec perfected chocolate and then the British ruined it [Music] basically I'm dropping the hammer I'm dropping the hammer my my culture of Pride cannot take it can we can we just look at the point that talage made while I deflect from The Assault on my national Cuisine um the KNE fights followed a progressive life this is kind of where I was going with that whole relance thing right and since when has when has a Mormon General Authority ever praised anyone for being Progressive ever when has that ever been a positive thing and yet somehow tal going oh yeah they were really Progressive what that's that's never been in the cannon of good traits for good Mormons is yeah be Progressive go on weird just really weird yeah what did you want to say about this slide Julia jul just like this is just another carryover from the everything that we've been saying the the dark they developed a dark ready skin and he's talking about their characteristics that are exactly reflected in the Book of Mormon he's just carrying over the same the same rhetoric so it's it is skin skin means skin yeah and the belief has lasted up until 197 at least you know this is this is outlasted polygamy as far as the mainstream Church goes by this point polygamy is being like wound down and church is making declarations and stuff like that and yeah Taylor's probably running around make marrying people and then secretly kind of trying to lead the church from Exile and all that sort of stuff but you know polygamy by and large is falling out of favor in the mainstream church but this belief is still uh Alive and Kicking very strong yeah yeah yeah so then we have a we have a clip from Spencer Kimbell and he was another he was a when he was eighty old let me just talk talk for a second so whenever he was 8 years old he got his Pedro blessing which I think is is shocking but it said that he would be a missionary among the lamanites and he he did that he thought he was fulfilling it by being involved in the Indian placement Pro Indian student placement program which we'll talk about in a second but he was very um he had this very special view of the Native Americans and their involvement being Lites and so this is one of the talks where he talks about about this so we'll just play it Prophet Joseph Smith gave us this thought that the Lord brought us out here to bring the gospel to the Lites one of the most important things that can possibly happen in this whole dispensation of the fullness of the times is to bring the gospel to the Layon briam young seemed to catch the vision of he said that that the Lord could not have devised a better plan than to have put us where we were in order to accomplish that very thing of educating and teaching the lamanites I had a bit of a dumb moment there I went oh that guy kind of looks like a young Spencer W Kimble and I was like yeah he is and Julia repeat for us what Kimble just said for those who didn't get it so he was saying that there's a special work to do among the lamanites to take them in um he said that there the Lord couldn't have devised a better plan than to take them in and I just thought it was I don't know if you guys recall but just a few slides earlier um when bamy was saying to buy out the native children that's the exact same speech that he's pulling from and I just thought that was interesting he just left that part out and then he's talking about how how great this is to to have the Lites integrate themselves into the church yeah so again he's taking a more positive view it seems to have shifted from this oh let's just go and buy up the dirty Savages and make them join the church to like oh yeah Brigham Young caught the vision of it which is a very almost 1940s way of saying someone's you know well he's caught the vision yeah he's he's worked out what needs to be done um but he was espousing very different vision for missionary work amongst the lonit than what kimal may be trying to present right which is nice at least for a softening of the narrative again that's a positive thing right uh positive until he starts talking about the lay minites changing their skin color yeah Church yes yeah we'll talk about those too get into that yeah right right so but before that there's a quote from Joseph Fielding Smith um and you I think it's your go if you might yeah why not so Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith said in 1960 uh in answers to gospel questions which is another book that apologists don't like um in 196 the Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith wrote about the lamanites after the people again forgot the Lord and dissensions arose some of them took upon themselves the name lamanites and the dark skin returned when the Lites fully repent and sincerely receive the Gospel the Lord has promised to remove the dark skin the Lord declared by Revelation that before the great day of the Lord shall come Jacob shall flourish in the wilderness and the lonit shall Blossom as a rose the dark skin of those who have come into the church is no longer to be considered a sign of the curse many of these converts and delights uh May these converts are delightsome and have the spirit of the Lord perhaps there are some lamanites today who are losing the dark pigment many of the members of the church among the catob Indians of the South could readily pass off as the white race also in other parts of the South goodness yeah sorry about the the a that's right um the dark skin of those who have come into the church is no longer to be considered a sign of the curse oh yeah Progressive but that's only because he's espousing this narrative like he said herard of like oh well their skin is just going to go whiter no he says many of these converts are delightsome the spirit of the Lord yeah right so he's basically saying look it's just it's just a hangover from when their ancestors were cursed these people are all right and with time their skin will change in fact it's happening already that's kind of the vibe of what he's saying right yeah right I also think it's interesting because they the in the book of Morman and here it says that the Lord will remove the dark skin and so if it's paint I guess I don't know how tattoos work but if it's paint or dark coats you can just remove that that's not that's not the lore taking that off of you yeah you don't need the Lord to remove your animal clothing or paint right so that doesn't makes sense and then he's making it really clear perhaps these are some lonite State who are losing the dark pigment many of the members of the church uh among the Indians of the South could readily pass as of the white race short of saying melanin I think he's being pretty clear what he means there right and and this is an apostle of the Lord these all these people that we' have been quoting are are most of them Apostles and and Prophets so like and he becomes president of the church in 1970 or 71 somewhere why why put weight into an apologist when the prophets of God have already clarified what the dark skin means and I think honestly just to cut to the chase a little bit I think modern AP Mormon apologists have just agreed that that past Prophet or revelators were full of crap whenever they were talking about lonit or dark skin or race or um you know the priesthood ban uh or other types of things and and so it's weird you know what what they don't ever try to explain is why we should listen to Modern prophets when we know that past prophets were so horrifically wrong on such important topic particularly when modern prophets and apostles are speaking on issues of biological identifying markers like someone's sexual orientation for example right that's not something someone can change that's that's part of someone's biological makeup up what they're attracted to and who they're attracted to so they they are speaking on similar issues as something as also intrinsic to someone someone's identity as their the color of their skin uh and they're currently going against the The Narrative that's generally held by a lot of people so why should we listen to them because it could be that that's just going to change right yeah and and let's not yeah I I agree and just one point that I wanted to make I I don't I think we're not talking here about the Kinder hook plates or some like weird Doctrine or or theory that some general Authority had uh we're talking here about the literal People For Whom The Book of Mormon was written preserved translated for and and if the if if the prophets who translated it and who taught it and the prophets who were called by God to tell us what his will is can't get that right I mean it makes you question what things they actually have get right right I I don't know that's this is very important is is the People For Whom The Book of Mormon was written for and they're identifying them they're talking about the curse that they got and and and telling us what the scriptures mean so I don't know it it seems weird to want to just forget about all that today and say that that it doesn't matter what the prophets taught before and Julie don't want to hijack what you've got going on but I'm just going to I I really think this is a point that I think is really missed by most Mormons that kind of blew me away 10 or 15 years ago but here I've got the Book of Mormon right the title page this is on the modern churchofjesuschrist.org website and the title page is a translation from the gold plates exactly not the introduction but the title page is yeah so this isn't just the chapter headings that were written by a committee with Bruce arm makoni anyway it it it's it's the second paragraph and it says an abridgment taken from the book of ether also which is a record of the people of Jared who were scattered at the time of the Lord blah blah blah and then it goes on to say quote which is to show unto the remnant of the House of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers and that they may know the covenants of the Lord that they are not cast off forever now who is that talking about can anyone on the panel tell us who it's talking about that's going to be the native to that to the view of the church at this point that's the Native Americans that is the descendants of the remnant of the House of Israel that came over the sea to the United States to the promised land and their descendants are there so that's why we said in that first episode that this book is for the lonit it's it's very clear on the second line John I think you missed it um the the second line of of the first paragraph if you can put it back on the screen uh okay absolutely just one second let me pull it back up I I ended the I ended the window too early he dropped the mic where do I go herto where it says wherefore it is an emment of the record of the people of Nephi and also of the lemonides written to the lemones yeah Israel yeah yeah written by a way of commandment and also by the spirit of Prophecy anyway so it is very clear it was written to to the lamanites and then if we don't know who the lonit are in 20124 or if we're saying that it's just this teeny tiny tribe in Central America you know and didn't really involve Central South or North Americans other than that teeny tiny tribe then who is it for right well and then we can't identify them because the DNA is so polluted with all the people that were here anyway we find which sets us up for this idea of the we don't know argument undermines then the purpose of the Book of Mormon which I think what you're getting that right John yeah but I think another way in which the purpose of the Book of Mormon is undermined here is that is the to the convincing the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ right and the people who are reading this are going to come across This Racist verse and be like I'm not cool with that that doesn't seem like that doesn't seem very church has got to deal with this because otherwise the Book of Mormon it's meant to be their most powerful tool for converting people to Mormonism it's the USP of the religion and second Nei is a big issue because people aren't down for it right yeah so this next so the next thing we're g to talk about is is uh spencor Kimble has this idea or has this vision of people in the student Indian student placement program and how their skin color is changing and so before we talked about that I wanted to talk a little bit about the Indian student placement program and so uh herard do you want to read some of this some of this history uh sure uh Indian student placement program in 1954 the church official oh sorry officially officially endorsed the Indian student placement program and the isp's final participant graduated from high school in 2000 while the program began in 1943 it was endorsed by the church for 40 six years according to the church's own website during the second half of the 20th century approximately 50,000 Native American children participated in the Indian student placement program an an initiative sponsored by the church in which church members I should add I should add white church members hosted latterday Saint Indian students during the school year for Native participants the program offered educational and spiritual opportunities in addition to what was then available on reservations the program enable host families who were predominantly white Latter-Day Saints to fellowship and assist American Indians whom they understood at the time to be descendants of the lamanites in the Book of Mormon and this is from the church's website Indian student placement program and that's what I found just yes the other day like this is still on there the church and this is in the what did I say in the 1950s the church is still holding this narrative that the lonit that the Native Americans are the lonit and it just is carried on and so that's a little bit of background we can always we can always talk more about the Indian student placement program in a different episode to talk more about the history because there's a lot of stuff there there's like the the kitty dunk baptisms the baseball baptism stuff it's just it's just and it's just the horribleness of the program um but that can be for a different episode oh sorry go ahead I just had two real quick points the first is whom they understood to be is an imp implication that they were wrong right the church there is implying that they were wrong and that now the narrative is slightly different because whom they understood at the time to be descendants of the lamanites is indicating but we kind of know better now which raises all sorts of questions about why they got away with that b narrative for so long and two um at this point the peoples of Central and South America still aren't getting a look in in terms of being lonit it's 1950 and it's still all about the Native American tribes of of North America that they are the Layon nightes still in this narrative that still hasn't shifted yet right yeah and I think there's a story that Matt Harris um and I hope someone correct me if I'm wrong but Matt Harris talks about in his book and and he'll he talked about it on um on one of the episodes that we recorded with him where Spencer Kimbell was so convinced that this program was going to bring the lamanites into the church in general conference he literally held up pictures of uh of the kids that were on the um on the Indian placement program and then JS tost them with the pictures of their parents who were staying in their reservations and then saying like look how the kids are becoming more white and their skin is becoming whiter because they are being uh embracing because they are embracing Mormonism so this was something big and important for Spencer W Kimble like how the in indigenous people were changing their skin was changing because they were converting into Mormonism or they're spending lots of time in air conditioned American Homes being fered to school in cars and not really walking around outside anymore yeah right okay so I'm not sure if this this talk is exactly the one that Harris was talking about I want the I would love the video footage of that him holding these pictures up but John do you is it okay if you read this one about his talk yeah sure so spencec w Kimble he became prophet of the more mature Church in the early 1970s but he sort of uh just for our viewers and listeners he sort of was the self-appointed kind of advocate for the lonite people and in some ways it was a very tender thing where you've got this guy otherwise super racist Arizona white Mormon guy of pioneer Heritage who all of a sudden develops a kinship for dark people and specifically lamanites and he becomes their champion um and you know ultimately is the one that got the priesthood and Temple ban on on Mormons of Africa descent lifted so that's the guy we're talking about here in 1960 he writes quote the day of the lamanites is nigh uh for years they have been growing delightsome and they are now becoming white and delightsome as they were promised in this picture of the 20 lonite missionaries 15 of the 20 were as light as anglos awesome that's great white as anglos woohoo five were darker a but equally delightsome oh that's good in spite of their Darkness they were equally delightsome that's great the children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the Hogans on the reservation oh at one meeting a father and mother and their 16-year-old daughter were present the little member girl 16 sitting between the dark father and mother and it was evident she was several Shades lighter than her parents on the same reservation H in the same Hogan subject to the same sun and wind and weather I my argument out the jello was it the jello salad I wonder what it was that made that that little Native American Girl several Shades lighter than her parents I just love the idea that he's got a duux color chart and he's like compar in the shades like what it's at least two I mean it's at least two possibly Three Shades ridiculous a little Swatch from Like Home Depot how righteous how righteous is she becoming like is she pearlescent white or seashell white like it reminds me of the light and dark scale like a little bit from the the day bells or whatever oh yeah kibble needs Chad deel to help him interpret their and darkness scale anyway um uh yeah oh oh and he this is s he's even he's even invoking science now they were subject to the same sun and wind and weather so he's basically saying under controlled scientific conditions with the same sun and weather there's no other explanation that that their righteousness by being around white Mormons eating ice cream and jell salad that that has to be there's no other conclusion it must have been God's will that changed these children's skin several Shades lighter what else could explain it this is the John everyone came to see W Kimble finally broke him har Nemo it's a controlled scientific study at this point because it wasn't a different Sun apparently the sun in Arizona is the same sun in Utah so what else could account for the change in skin tones pered by Spen Kimble science Checkmate Checkmate Julia science um there was the doctor I would say not checkm Julia checkm Jasmine oh yeah yeah why why because Jasmine disagrees with him right har yeah yeah why do you just tell us what you mean by that well but Jasmine says it's not it's not the dark skin it means it means clothes it means tattoos it means pain shade yeah yeah I mean maybe obviously skin doesn't change that like maybe she went to home bought a different shade of paint and painted her own skin a lighter shade and maybe that's why he was able to say several Shades lighter because you know on the color chart what the color was yeah you said him the Swatch it's like hey Spencer it's several Shades here I'm painting I'm not using deep ocher anymore my parents they've got they've got the darker color from Home Depot okay we're getting silly now um okay uh there was a doctor in a Utah City who for two years had had an Indian boy in his home who stated that he was some shades lighter than the younger brother just coming into the program for the reservation these young members of the church are changing to whiteness and delightsome what by the way what do we mean by delightsome does that mean he's sexually attracted to these people does that mean they're aesthetically pleasing it's a little bit I'm I'm now like it's a kind of dark humor but what does it mean Julia can you tell us what a grown man would mean by delightsome well in in my view thinking about with with uh with all the early Saints where briam young is like they're Savage they're vile they're they're they love war and bloodshed like I wonder if maybe Delights him is more like they're being submissive they're being they're being more like members of the church more like with the I'm gonna I'm gonna I think that's a very charitable interpretation I'm gonna tell you why I think you might be wrong okay the reason the Book of Mormon tells us the reason why he gave them the curse of Blackness panel tell me why God gave the lamanites according to the Book of Mormon why he gave them the the the black cursed skin why to make them what so they would be unappealing to the Nephites what are the words used it doesn't say unappealing enticing to my people you're right John says what that they won't be enticing to my people enticing loathsome not sexually attractive right yeah so they won't be attempted to mix with them to have sex with them so what else can Kimble mean by delightsome seriously I'm not trying I I I don't know whether it's just a throwback to the Book of Mormon where it talks about them being white and delightsome and you know whereing what does enticing mean Nemo no no but but as in like I don't know whether he's just stolen the adjective and because that's scripture language he's just using scripture language right because it says he calls a cursing upon them yeah saw cursing because they're EX for behold they' hard their hearts Etc wherefore as they were white and exceedingly fair and delightsome Delight they might right yeah so that's just a word that's in the Book of Mormon and he's gone right I'm going to use that adjective I'm going to describe them as being delightsome because that is the state from which they were taken and that is the state I'm going to talk about them returning to which is how they were described in the Book of Mormon as being white and delightsome that's where I think that's coming from in the sort of the the idect of people talking about this issue I'm looking up the I'm looking G okay delightsome giving pleasure or contentment to the mind or senses that's what lightsome means according to Miriam Webster dictionary oh I year right now on the internet yeah I don't know we can look back any that's a good point we can look back but uh all right well I I think there's something to what I'm saying know by the way that there was a a rampant sex abuse associated with the Indian placement program am I wrong no you're not wrong yeah so anyway uh I think there's something to this um okay uh these young members of the church are changing to whiteness and delights andess our white Elder jokingly said that he and His companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated now you know that science you were talking about John what does that mean donating blood how I don't get what he's white blood is somehow different than yeah it's a form of blood doping to like try and and this is during the time with the blood banks the the the segregation stuff like that so they they have this mindset that the white blood would be used for transfusions into Indian blood to turn their yeah skin white yes well that's funny because like you said Julia segregation at this time right so black people donate blood separately or aren't donating blood I'm not quite sure which but essentially if there's a predominant narrative that blood from different skin colors is different then that's that's your science there it's a control study John yeah so I don't know how Jasmine uh can get around that one yeah hopefully she'll respond we would love her response how awful like he's saying this in general conference right yes as an apostle of the and and and this really tells you why was he so excited about the Indian placement program it was not about about uh giving this kids a better education or you know um I don't know like uh help them uh be more um economically independent I'm I'm not sure I think he really uh gives away in this talk that his main purpose for the Indian placement program was to make Indian children white and a lightsome and convert it into Mormonism and I will say that ization Vibes right yeah um there's a great book here I'll put a plug in it for again a plug in it for how do I say that plug it again called making Layon nightes by the by historian Matthew Garrett and he talks about how one of the prerequisites to being in this Indian placement program is that you have to be a member of the church and so that's what led to all these unethical baptisms of these really young children who had no idea what they were getting themselves into so like they're they're being forced into the church without that their knowledge or their parent their parental knowledge and then they were becoming white like you were saying so yeah okay so this next part is a pamphlet I think used by herard did you say used by missionaries yeah yeah um 1974 and this was um I I think a pamphlet that was really predominant used for uh teaching to indigenous people or people in Mexico I know I I've seen it in Spanish as well uh but this is a quote from from the pamphlet The pamphlet is entitled lonit and the Book of Mormon in a pamphlet from printed 1974 and it says you Native Americans were called Indians your ancestors were once a mighty nation upon the American continent the best source of true information that tells who you are where you came from and what you can achieve is found in an important book The Book of Mormon The Book of Mormon is a history of your people The Book of Mormon tell us how your forefathers came from Jerusalem about 600 years before the birth of Jesus Christ the lamanites were marked by the Lord with a darker skin an account is given of some of your ancestors who built ships and sailed from the American continent with their families never returning these people journeyed to the islands of the sea and have lived there ever since God let your ancestors know by showing them a new star and other signs while Jesus Christ was living in Palestine he organized his church and he taught the people many things he told them that there was another people in the world world that he was going to visit he was speaking of your people in America sometimes following three days of darkness a Voice Was Heard by all the people on the American continent your people so saw Christ and spoke with him the Savior continued to teach your andc ERS you are descendants of the lonit your history was preserved har did you come in contact with this as a member in Mexico was this I'm pretty sure I I had I my my parents I used this pamphlet on their missions where did they serve uh in Waka Mexico okay and I even remember as a kid I remember seeing this pamphlet and I you know I was born in 1990 so like that i' I've seen this must have carried out even farther than 19 70 because I remember seeing that do you guys have comments about that found this church pamphlet um which again has got more like this is monuma honors Hernando Cortez as a returning God right that's a nice lovely picture there um Captain Cook being wel welcomed by the hawaian wait can you open that back up again what what Temple is that or what what structure is that not sure just looks like generic sort of uh Central American sort of North South America okay restruction but yeah this is another church pamphlet essentially going through um how it's all about the inhabitants of the ancient Americas and it's all about colonialism yeah I definitely seen this pamphlet um yeah missions it's a missionary pamphlet I'm looking at the end of the pamphlet it says Mission addresses Mission offices of the Church of Jesus Christ of latterday saints are are located worldwide some are listed before and it lists Argentina Australia Brazil California Canada Denmark England France Germany Hong Kong Italy um anyway bunch of Mexico Mexico City Mission it just lists all the missions at the end this was a pamphlet used by missionaries there's a picture at the beginning of a of a in indigenous person uh talking at church and it's it has the tag aluminite youth speaks in a church meeting yeah so we're in the 1870 or the 1970s and there is still there's no there's no confusion about who the Layon nightes are with this pamphlet what do you think John yeah so so if we can put that slide back up for a second um uh my my reaction is s sort of a tiny bit tangential but number one it obviously shows that through the 1970s at least this uh this narrative has been perpetuated This Racist narrative that's very literal it's talking about dark skin not tattoos Furs or paint um it's it's it's again super racist but I'm kind of struck as well you know this is four years before the the priesthood and Temple Band on African Mormons gets lifted and um you know it's it's a decade or two after several um Educators in the Mormon Church were revolting against the the pries and Temple Band on African Mormons um and so we're talking about Larry Nelson we're talking about Lil benan tgar lion um you know there there there were a lot of church Educators and members that were in Revolt about the church's teaching about black people but I'm just I'm reflecting herard and this kind of makes me sad and Julia makes me sad not just for Latin Americans but for women as well like the the the Latin Americans were totally forgotten in terms of public outcry about these racist teachings so because of the civil rights movement because of Martin Luther King Jr from the mid1 1950s through the mid1 1970s you know people were protesting universities were protesting Molotov cocktail was thrown on the floor of an NCAA BYU basketball game you know several serious events were happening protesting the church's racist teachings and doctrines and theologies around black Mormons but nobody gave a fig about the Native Americans um and to this day they still kind of don't there's never been any accounting or apologies or or policy changes or doctrinal changes around this garbage and the same goes for women it's 2024 and kind of nobody cares that women are still banned from the priesthood so so my reaction herard is how crazy it is in modern society that we can like selectively have outcry for you know Mormons of African descent in the 50s 60s and 70s or even LGBT people in the thousands and th0 2010s and 2020s but but nobody cares about well Native Americans are women you know in modern times that's that's my rant uh I don't know if that even resonates but that's what comes to me Nemo you got yeah a quick point on there about the phrase Native Americans I think at this point it's becoming quite clear that we've departed from the sort of 1950s view uh of that just being the sort of tribes of Northern America and it's kind of become North South Central it's everyone native to the America plural uh is now kind of getting like painted with this uh brush and I think uh that becomes clear when herado talks about you know the fact that people in Mexico are receiving this pamphlet and being told this is the history of their people I believe at this point um at this point Polynesian people have been told that they're the people of hagoth I think by this point in time so um yeah you know it's it's opening up because the church has been forced to adopt this hemispheric model um and it's part of that shifting of the narrative over time the church is backing off specificity now it's just broad it's anyone that's native to the Americas now it's not just these specific tribes although they're still part of the group yeah yeah I agree I agree I I think sorry go ahead I was just going to say real quick in order to get hits still or perceived hits on historical accuracy of the text they've had to throw the tent really wide you know oh well we found proper structures in Central and South America like matchu Pichu so for you know that that's a hit for us but there were none of those hits in North America gado yeah sorry no I I was just going to say that I mean that at this time point in time there's no question that the prophets senors and revelators know who the Layon are they're telling everyone that it's all the indigenous people from the Americas they were printing pamphlets about it having missionaries having uh teach it to um indigenous people to people in Mexico to people in Central America so and South America so there um this change of narrative that we're going to talk about right now is going to be become really important um if you want to go keep going Julia with the yeah so I have to set up this next one a little bit so in 1975 so the following year after that pamphlet was published there was the first general Authority that was a Native American and his name was George p Lee and there's a clip from his one of his talks that I wanted to share because it it just really illustrates this really well and I'm pretty sure he was called under Spencer Kimbell um I can't remember when Spencer Kimble became the prophet but 73 three-ish okay so yeah I would have been under Spencer Kimmel because I don't think the previous or the later prophets would have done that yeah agree well I'll show the clip I am proud to say to you and declare to you today brothers and sisters to be a descendant of Lehi Nephi and all the great bamar and Prophets I am proud to be a child of the book of Morman people I have found my true Heritage I have found my true identity I am a Son of God a child of God a child of the Book of Mormon a child of Lehi a rich Heritage that extends all the way back to my heavenly father through Moses and Abraham and great prophets I'm also proud to let you know that I'm proud to be a descendant of Great Indian chiefs of our country I am proud to be a descendant of Red Cloud City B Chief Joseph CH Dodge Chief Crazy Horse and all these great Indian chiefs that did so well and fought for their people yeah so I thought that was just a good illustration that there's no confusion he he was of the Navajo tribe and he lists off you know that he's a a child of Nephi and Lehi or descendant of them and yeah I just thought that was a really good imagery his history belongs into maybe a different episode but he was excommunicated um some years later I think it was 14 years later in the 80s for apostasy and for uh actions Unbecoming or un becoming of an apostle or I mean a general Authority um possibly child abuse yes he was umed of that I think in the in the 19 early 1990s so I don't think that's exactly why he was excommunicated but that certainly did happen short can I just nitpick for a second when he says he's a child of all the Great Book of Mormon prophets well Mormon and Moroni don't really have any posterity they kind of were the last of their people and watch them all die so I I it's clear that he doesn't I mean he avoided to say lame Layman and lame right cu yeah if he's a lonite he wouldn't be a descant of Nephi he would exactly yeah and not the prophets but okay that's okay point is he understands to be a descendant of Lehi right yeah so there's another quote here by this is another Apostle the grand Richards and this is from 1978 so the same year that the priesthood in Temple band was lifted so Apostle lra Richards once said in a new in an interview the lore has never indicated that black skin came because of being less faithful now the Indian we know why his skin changed don't we The Book of Mormon tells us that and he has a dark skin but he has promised that that that through faithfulness that they all again will become a white and delightsome people now Julie what does that mean the Lord has never indicated that black skin came because of being less faithful I thought that's exactly what was indicated your guess is probably as good as mine the Lord has never indicated that black skin came when was the priest B lifted 78 what time in the year uh I want to say summer yeah this is August 16th 1978 is this not immediate firefighting of yeah well God never said it was actually a bad thing to be black they were trying to cover up for the for the uh priesthood ban straight away like ah yeah God never actually said it was a bad thing what are you talking about that's just straight up damage control disarm that's what I think is going on here if the timeline works out that's almost certainly what's what's happening here that's why he's saying that yeah it's so like blatant understand I don't may I wonder if that's a misquote because in the same paragraph he goes on to say well he's he's talking about black and dark you know so there's identifying um people of African descent black people and then dark people would be the Layon nightes the IND can I just reiterate that these are special Witness of Christ and Prophets and revelators that are like somehow distinguishing between brown skin and black skin and God cursing people in color changes like that's what they're a special witness of John melanin levels June was the month when so this would be two months June 8th so this would be two months after the priesthood band was lifted yeah I mean they're not yet revoltingly super racist they're also dishonest yeah he's like yeah no black skin never came because of being less faithful which so that's curs of Kane dealt with fine he's like now Indians yeah well we know about that don't we you know which is what we covered with Matt Harris and everyone needs to watch that series second saints that we're doing with Matt Harris the church uh the Brethren knew since the 50s that the scriptures did not support uh the theories of black skin from African descent being a a a a um a a a a curse by um by uh being less faithful in the pre-existence there there was no scriptural support of that but he's like touting there is scriptural support for the for the native people yes yeah about two lots of racism this one with the Native Americans that one is scriptural guys that one is scripturally mandated racism um but the other bit of racism we were doing yeah that was all just Brigham yeah yeah right what it's again like quu getting his racism mixed up like we shouldn't have multiple forms of racism in God's true church that we're getting confused about or that we're having to distinguish between and then and then letting one go and then carrying on another one like oh we let that one go in June a couple months ago or a month ago but we're gonna carry this one on and didn't Tage say that being Progressive was a good thing I I mean I'm being factious at that point but know I think you you get my my frustration yeah so I so another thing I wanted to point out is this that in 198 1 this is when there was a Comm there was a committee and Bruce Omari was on it and so he helped to to write the introduction to the Book of Mormon and in there he writes that after a thousand years all were destroyed except the lamanites and they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians okay so so again even in the in the in the 80s they still believe that the lamanites are the principal ancestors of the Native Americans and as far as we know the the church kept printing Book of Mormons with that introduction until until 20 no I think that no no no I think they printed them until 2013 but I think online other other editions were so I think I think where the confusion with this is is in the quad the church released a new Quad in 2013 and it changed in there but individ so when the church is producing quads it's still in there until 2013 but the individual handout copies of the Book of Mormon were changed as of 2007 okay but I think other publishing companies were picking up the book of Morman I think Matt Harris talks about this a little bit so there was one that picked it up and then they had changed it in 2007 so yes I guess some printed editions were changed but I think the church the official church one was changed the blanket changes 2013 that's when it's Everything's changed at that point okay right exactly all right I know when I went on my mission in 2013 My Book of Mormon still said principal ancestors memorized the introduction as ancestors yeah so on my mission I served in 13 as well and I F and I was so excited that they that they were making changes to the book Mormon so I like went and bought a new copy I never heard that there was a change in Mexico until I until I came back from until until I stopped believing in the church in 2019 um and and then actually my my sister went on a mission around 2019 and she didn't realize of that change until I pointed it out that her book of was different um than uh what she was handing out like there was she had two versions um from what it's just a one word change isn't it so you wouldn't spot it unless you have it kind of pointed out to you that's right right so this's next slide Nemo do you want to talk about this one uh yeah yeah sure I mean I've got a copy of it in front of me do you want to see it yeah here we go Tada so he's showing the a book of stories reader children yeah for the audio listeners this is uh marked the year it was it was we bought it in 1999 I think and I read this as a child this is how the scriptures were taught to me as a child this was published by the church given to families or bought by families to teach their children about the book of right this is this is as official as it gets outside of like a boring old quad the church is endorsing this to teach children these stories that are found within the Book of Mormon like I need to make that really really clear you buy this from the church it's got the church's copyright in the front cover um published by The Church of Jesus Christ Last Day Saints Salt Lake City Utah and by the way deser book still sells it still prints it you can go and get it um online today for 4 .50 um it's still it's still being printed and and distributed by the church I think they have changed it a little bit over time they've like changed some of the artwork certainly in the online PDFs um and in what way were they oh well it's a little bit less racist now let's look at what it let's look at what I grew up with well I'll just say on my mission I served in un Wyoming a little bit and there was a native family I think they were Navajo I can't remember what tribe they were from but would you they had young children and we would use this book to talk about their ancestors so was and this is 2013 so yeah I was still very much a part of it so this is yeah these are images NE do you want to talk about it oh yes please right so from 1978 to 1997 the church released a book uh Book of Mormon stories children reader in which lamanites are depicted with dark skin um so look how white that baby is we'll we'll give you a closeup in a minute but um here you go the Lord told Nephi to lead the righteous People Into the Wilderness they travel from Main days and finally stopped at a land they named Nephi little bit narcissistic but fine um and there's a baby white as anything with this kind of you know slightly Olive European looking maybe Mediterranean looking family and then if you go back to the slide uh we have Layman and lem's followers call themselves lonit they became a dark skinned people God cursed them because of their wickedness now we don't have all the pictures up here but some of the more pictures I might be able to hold up to the screen it's interesting that in this one here you see there's like brick and water buildings behind them yeah mhm this one here they all now dwell in tents and hang up animals and are scratching their armpits um they're scratching their armpits and putting their hands on their cheeks like they don't know what they should be doing and the caption is the Layon nightes became lazy and would not work now if that is not a dog whistle to the American work ethic I don't know what is in children it's like you need to work hard and get a white picket fence young man um I think what's important is what says what the text only the picture but the what text the text but it says Layman and lal's followers called themselves lamanites and they became a dark skinned people God cursed them because of their wickedness and I just looked on the church's website today you can see that um the is is it up on the screen yet yep picture hasn't changed but they have removed the last part of that um of that sentence yeah but the children are still getting the same message because you have these really white lamanites and these really really white baby exactly right that's a better picture so he's showing the picture of the family again with this very white baby like Aryan baby and then look at all the knightes how white and and it is the case later on in the reader as well um you know you'll see whenever it shows Layon nightes they're just much darker but that is such a contrast in these pictures yeah now he's showing the picture of the child the people scratching their armpits and standing around in tents next to tense yeah yeah Lon did not obey God were caught out from his presence the spirit of the Lord could not be with them oh they changed that too yeah they changed that from they became lazy and would not work which is what the Book of Mormon actually says so they're yeah yeah up until in the 90s they still had this perspective so now we're gonna move into the the 2000s till till today so in so in 2022 or excuse me 2002 I said that wrong in 2002 Anthropologist Thomas Murphy P PhD published a first peer-review academic Journal Journal article on DNA in the Book of Mormon demonstrating that DNA evidence at the time did not support the book of Mormon's historical claims Dr Murphy Dr Murphy was subsequently summoned to an LDS disciplinary Council for apostasy but the but the disciplinary Council was called off at the last minute and he has not been pursued since this was taken from Mormon stories from from the description of his episode and so so yeah in in 2002 their their studies are starting to come out where it's not supporting the book of Mormon's claims did you guys have comments about that wild that he was almost excommunicated for apostasy just for publishing the findings of a scientific study into DNA it's you know it's fine when spencec w kimle wants to do a controlled study with sun exposure on the children of lamanites and whether they become wild or not but a guy starts looking at DNA markers and all of a sudden he's gonna get kicked out for apostasy no wonder it got called off they they must have realized how bad that looks right right here and and how actually that undermines their claims of historicity in the Book of Mormon if they're that scared of those claims of historicity that they're going to excommunicate anyone that dares to look at the DNA data yeah this seems to be the turning point right when uh when the church starts realizing that this um Narrative of the Layon ites being the principal ancestors of the Native Americans and the all the Native Americans even the Pacific Islanders they're all lamanites they're all the same from Lehi this is when they said realizing that that narrative is not gonna be sustainable exactly yes so there's another study that was released it would have been nice to have a profit to be able to see that ahead of time to see around that corner for Science and publicity and to awaken them to the concern right the problem is that we didn't have a doctor a scientist as a prophet John you have to wait until Russ Nelson who believes that Russ Nelson who believes that dogs have always been dogs monkeys have always been monkeys Etc and that the world is only 6,000 years old we're in the sixth Millennia is what he says yep yeah John do you want to talk about this slide yeah it's our buddy Simon sutherton he was influential in my own faith Journey so Simon sutherton in 2004 he was a by the way a a active faithful Mormon Bishop geneticist who was excited about DNA and genetics until he realized that they proved The Book of Mormon wrong anyway in 2004 he wrote a book called losing a lost tribe published by signature books um technically it was called losing a lost tribe Native Americans DNA in the Mormon church and the book uh uses genetic evidence to examine the historical accuracy of the Book of Mormon and related claims about the lonite people um Simon SS's book covers the research that quote Native Americans are originally from Siberia and Polynesians from Southeast Asia close quote and if anyone is curious can anyone predict what the fate of Simon sutherton was publishing this book I wonder I believe he was excommunicated was he not John he was excommunicated yes I mean I I attended a conference in or not a conference uh a Institute lesson with a guy called Ugo from Italy who's the church is leading genetics guy got Pereira is that right yes yeah he's the church's leading genetics guy and I remember like being sat in the room and a couple of distinct things come to mind is his attitude is very much I'm just saying what the genetic says I'm not saying what you should therefore believe which is you know okay fine but then how were you kind of meant to put people's concerns at rest and and a young man sat there put up his hand and said very earnestly I thought the Garden of Eden was in Missouri so what are you telling me human beings came out of Africa like in in 2018 said what what do you mean you're telling me human beings came out of Africa so there is a big issue the church has at play still with modern genetics and understanding of mitochondrial uh of inheritance and and those sorts of studies of of genetics versus the church's claims about the origin of man about the ancestry of key groups and it's it's going to come crashing down at some point yeah yep agree yeah what's what's next jul so we talked about this we talked about this in a little bit where in 2007 they started changing some of these additions this one this is an a Salt Lake Tribune article um from November of 2007 where they talk about how the Double Days uh revised edition of The Book of Mormon changes that should we read it sure uh it's a single word change in book in Book of Mormon speaks volumes November 8th 2007 by fleder stack the book's current introduction added by late LDS Apostle Bruce arm makoni in 1981 includes includes this statement after after thousands of years all were destroyed except the lamanites and they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians the new version seen first in Double Days revised Edition reads after thousands of years all were destroyed except the lamanites and and they are among the ancestors of the American Indians so yeah we see this this change from 2002 and 2004 these studies are coming out and you have these members who are speaking out against it and then the the church is slowly or I guess others and the church are slowly changing the introduction to the Book of Mormon to make it more accurate and to fit yeah and there's no announcement the church is not saying telling people and their members we got it wrong we're changing this everyone needs to stop telling people stop telling American Indians that they're the lonit because we don't know that there was no announcement over General Conference or anything like that yes and let me just make sure are they changing the revealed word transcribed you know given to Joseph Smith transcribed through the gift and power of God are they changing Joseph Smith's own Revelation there or not no this yeah the introduction was was written by Apostle Bruce haroni got got it sorry I missed that yeah you're good I have a quick point this is again this is a a sort of reflective of the the church's approach in the early 1900s when they all of a sudden without telling one took out the footnotes from The Book of Mormon that said oh yeah the the great body of water northward is Lake such and such or the land Southward is this like the book of had footnotes in it that put specific places down on the map where the events of the book of Mor took place in Joseph Smith's backyard and then with the meetings with BH Roberts and whatnot the church went oh got to get rid of those um because they're indefensible because the archa the archaeology doesn't defend it you know Church BYU archaeologists go to kamur and go it's a clean Hill sorry so they have to get rid of that stuff and the same this DNA stuff comes out and the church goes right well we've got to now change app position but because it's just footnotes and because it's just an introduction they can change it Without Really changing the revealed word of God now I don't have it in my I have it on the Shelf but there's a there's a blue copy with the the angel I don't know if you have that one but in the beginning of one of these from the 80s there's pictures from these ruins down in down in Central and South America I don't know if you're refle right in the front yeah yeah so the church like you said with the footnotes with the introduction with the even the images that they're sharing yeah they are supporting this this idea look yeah he's showing these are ruins yeah Machu picu I oh and that that that that um I believe that painting it's used to say look there's the Nephites and there's the lamanites L like murals found on Temple walls in but they they um they use it because you can see people of different color white people and and people with dark skin saying look here are the Lites and the Nephites and then they also have the Darius um plates just to you look people wrote on gold plates sometimes but we won't get into that yeah yeah so the church yeah the church is slowly moving away and pulling these things out that they can and trying to preserve Joseph Smith's words yeah and this is a this slide is reflecting that the Book of Mormon the introduction was changed in 2013 in their in the church's official printed version yeah yeah whoops okay so there's another thing that I want to talk about so in 2016 I believe is when the church first started producing these Book of Mormon videos and so in 2016 there was a there's a website the web called casting. lds.org I I think it was officially done by the church I don't know her if you know it is it is okay and so there was they put out a call for actors for the upcoming book of morm videos and they said quote we will need people of all ages with an ol of complexion and mediter and Mediterranean appearance and Olive complexion and mediter Mediterranean appearance is essential I applied oh I did maybe that's why you didn't get in you don't have clearly wasn't wasn't Mediterranean looking enough yeah yeah so what does it mean that the church in 2016 is calling for an olive complexion and Mediterranean appearance what does that mean oh they believe that the that the Layon nightes are are people um with Native American um DNA right right so I guess they're because they're moving away from this that the they're not the principal ancestors they're among the ancestors but they still hold it this you know they have to hold it this because there's nothing else to do that they are among the Native Americans yeah they were all originally Jews that sailed from America right we got to have them with all the complexion because we got to portray the curse that God put up on them right actually In fairness to the church here it says the production ISS year will portray people of the Holy Land so they're they're making it very clear right we're getting the the Jews in first uh this is the opening of The Book of Mormon Etc um but pretty close to the beginning of the Book of Mormon is where the cursing happens so um I wonder then how are they gonna because they've already gone for dark skinned people so what are they gonna do make them darker yeah well if you if you watch the videos it seems like the lonit are portrayed as like Samons and people of the Pacific oh okay um and then the Nephites and the Jews are like more white people um looking right yeah yeah looking people so they're still doing it they're still presenting this change of skin color so in official Church Productions they've made it about skin color not about tattoos not about coverings not about paint Etc in 2016 yeah formed that the church is still making these filming these and releasing these and I don't think that I don't think the call has changed I don't think they're moving away from any of those other silly theories of like you said paint or coats or tattoos they're not they're just they're it's strictly skin color that they're focused on my beard is better than it was in 2016 if I apply again draon I'll get in do I need a do I need a temple recommend herado um I I believe um I have a friend who was a service missionary on the on the Book of Mormon um videos uh production site and he tells me that no that you don't have to be a member that most people that are portrayed in the videos now or the recent videos as lamanites they're not they're not members of the church just because the church is really desperate to get uh a lot of uh s and and Pacific Islander and Native American looking people that they're they're not necessarily uh applying a strict rule of all of them being members what what a shock that a church that's been racist for this long can't find people with dark skin to come and be in their Productions yeah yeah and yeah and show how a assessors were cursed yeah yeah yeah it's that's so wild to me because like we were just in NAU and even all the actors that are on the stage performing these pageants they have to have a temple recommend and so it's just wild to me that the church will put out these spent all this money and put out these videos but they don't have to they've just dropped that restriction because they they specifically looking for people with dark skin yeah yeah I just want to say really quickly you know I I've been a little bit salty with Jasmine and Neil rapali and I've always been salty with Mormon apologetics that that are disingenuous or deceptive I I really do think that Jasmine and Neil know better and so the reason why I'm salty and angry is I think we've already and I know we have a few more slides but we've we make a really compelling case that it's obvious that they're just making stuff up to try and get the wiggle the church out of an embarrassing situation but they know that what they're teaching in isolation they may pacify or or you know um neutralize the concerns of some members that these these Solutions are coming up with are completely irreconcilable both with the the the scriptures with with of modern day prophets with former prophets with the church's current teachings with the with the beliefs of the general membership they know that they're sort of doing this apologetics and isolation in a way that's deceptive and completely uh non-h harmonious with with the rest of the Mormon uh believing Mormon world and that's why I'm so angry because it's just so ridiculous and they should know better but they're advancing these theories anyway because they're trying desperately to deal with the issues on a one-on-one basis and that's always been the problem that I have with with Mormon apologists is it's a fundamentally deceitful and deceptive um Enterprise uh and they don't take responsibility for their deception um they just act as if what they're doing is is factual and true and they believe in it and um and it it it it's got to take a certain lack of conscience um and integrity to advance these type of theories or you guys correct me if I'm wrong am I being too hard on them more more than that John it makes them bad members have you have you ever been told not to steady The Arc because I have right have you ever been told oh don't Council leaders don't try and tell them what to do to change the church has shown a clear pattern since its Inception of teaching that it was about skin color right through even even when they got a hold of modern media formats like the printed picture in color no okay they're still printing color pictures on mass of people darker and lighter they got a hold of video format they finally made Book of Mormon videos and they're still doing it in 2016 so who is Jasmine and Neil to try and steady the ark members should be angry at them for trying to undermine the clear position of church leaders but for some reason members don't get angry at them because what they help is for other members to not feel bad or embarrassed when their friends challenge their clearly racist religious beliefs they're like oh well I can point to these people who make it seem not so bad but they're not being good Mormons they're not being good members of the church they're seeking to undermine the clear pattern of leaders of the church and it frustrates me because when you or I or herard or Julia do it to try and benefit people and say maybe you shouldn't be are homophobic maybe you should you know D down your rhetoric on this or that we're told not to steady the ark we're told to leave the leaders alone let them counsel with God God will hold them accountable they know what they're doing why do apologists get a free pass yeah I agree so I'm just as salty as you John and I don't think you're being harsh at all was great but also but also we're in this new era because 10 or 20 or 30 years ago you're fwn Brody you're uh Wanita Brooks you're LOL benan you're Sterling mcmurren you're at risk of excommunication for teaching false Doctrine for trying to change the narrative and the again this book second CL second class Saints it shows several people that were excommunicated for challenging the core Doctrine what's weird about 2024 is the church has abandoned all interest in or um you know policing of Doctrine unless it's around things like same-sex marriage something to do with sex something to do with the church's tithing or its money or its power or his authority but anything regarding did Joseph Smith practice polygamy or not even though it's in doctrine of covs 132 it's like yeah we're not really gonna enforce that it's like the church has abandoned its concern for Doctrine unless say and do whatever they want as long as it doesn't challenge the money or the authority of the church or its weird sexual standards almost fair game and no one can get punished you've hit the nail on the head there John because it's no longer a theological institution it's no longer an institution that's in the business of actually kind of uplifting and upholding people's religious beliefs people can kind of believe what they want as long as it doesn't threaten or undermine the actual system itself that brings tithing money in and keeps a tax exempt uh corporation uh afloat that's that's all that matters long the leaders are still in control and the money is still coming in they don't really care what you believe and that's why I could go into a temple recommend and say I don't really believe in Joseph Smith I don't really believe in uh God I don't really things but I want to go to the temple and I sustain the leaders and I pay my tithing and boom yeah I'm allowed to go to the temple but the moment I say I don't sustain the leaders and I don't pay my tithing everything else can be answered correctly but those are the two things that they will not let you uh undermine or threaten is their income and their control yeah and the sex yeah sometimes exactly there's a couple people that get a pass well yes true for some reason it shows it shows you know there's this idea Jesus said where your treasure is there will your heart be also yeah clearly the church doesn't care about its Doctrine or theology at least as it relates to Book of Mormon or Joseph Smith or what 150 years of prophet SE and revelators taught what the church cares about is its power and it's money and it's control over people through sex and almost everything else it doesn't really care about it seems yeah yeah yeah sorry I don't normally get that ranty John I'm usually the voice of reason but this gets me worked up I'm a bad influence on you Nemo all right okay so we a coup more what sorry go ahead Julia I was oh yeah yeah we only have a couple more yeah so we just have we just have a couple more slides it's just one this the same Focus though where so the church is trying to make these changes to make their scriptures less R racist but then in 2020 the come follow me manual was released and this is a solic Tribune article that's talking about that oh there you go there's this is to come follow me Manuel the very one yeah should we just really quickly explain where the com following me manual is yeah sure okay just basically it is the um it is a a manual that is being used in the church by that is used throughout the course of a whole year by church members to teach in Sunday school about a certain book of scripture so each year is a different book of scripture that that 2020 was the year for the Book of Mormon uh so the whole year you're studying The Book of Mormon and this manual you use it for Sunday school and then members are supposed to also use it to teach uh their children and each other at home so um so yeah it's a very important program that the church instituted a few years ago so this was a big deal that that this new manual for Sunday school and and family uh teaching was uh had a had a big error or a slip yeah exactly yeah this would into all the homes and I'm like sometimes everyone had one every individual had one yeah so this is an article published by P Peggy uh Fletcher stack an error printed in the LDS church manual could revive racial criticism this is published in January 18th so what she's referring to and we can talk about this is that this change was made her already do you actually want to cover this one yes so um the this is from the com follow me 2020 for individuals and families um and is just talking about this the part of the Book of Mormon where he talks about the Layon I receiving a curse of black of dark skinbe second E55 I think yes 525 and then what have What U they include in the manual a quote and it's the same quote that we already read earlier from Joseph filling Smith but they will use ellipses to make it sound like it's still racist but they will soften the quote a lot more and they will take out parts from the quote to make it sound like the church is not racist anymore even though the book uh let's read it uh it says the quote by Joseph filling Smith answers to gopel questions from 1960 and remember this is 2020 the church is quoting in 2020 a prophet San Revelator from the 60s it says quote the dark skin was placed upon the lemonides so that they could be distinguished from the Nephites and to keep the two peoples from mixing the dark skin was the sign of the curse the curse was was the withdrawal of the spirit of the Lord and then they have an ellipses so we don't know what he said and what they took out dark skin ellipses again dark skin ellipses is no longer to be considered a sign of the curse and then the quote then if we go back to the actual uh quote from the 1960s we can see what they took out and what they took out was um the spirit of the Lord they took out this section where it says the curse was withdrawal of the spirit of the Lord and the lamanites becoming a loathsome and filthy people full of illness and all manners of abom Abominations the Lord commanded the Nephites not to intermar with them for if they did they would be would partake of the curse they took all that out and then on the other ellipses they took out this section where it says the dark skin of those who have come into the church is no longer to be considered a sign of the curse so they took of those who come into the church to make it sound like you know in 2020 is not uh it's not of the Lites or of the indigenous people is not the curse anymore but in reality what Joseph fing Smith was saying that it's not the curse for those who baptized into the Mormon church and they took that part out right and I'm very grateful that I've got a physical copy because that's you know gone down the memory Hall when they changed it when they realized they they adjusted the online edition um but I I think I should mention here that Gary e Stevenson said to an NAACP luncheon so that's for African-Americans it's a advocacy group for African-Americans in the states I believe he was speaking to them and he said oh yeah there's been some concern over an erroneous printing of a racist teaching from past profits we disavow racism blah blah blah and we've told our members to disregard that teaching we've made the changes to the online immediately and we'll change print or whenever the church never told members to disregard that teaching they made the change but they never told members to disregard it there was no instruction nothing came out over the pulpit I was a Sunday school teacher at the time nothing came across to me to say oh there's a problem in your manual you need to adjust and change um and he's hedging and you know trying to make the church look better to again the wrong group of people that the church has been racist towards this curse doesn't involve people of black African descent so they weren't the ones that necessarily would have been upset by this anyway because again like quu he's confusing his racism because we've got multiple strands of racism within the church and sometimes people get them mixed up yeah right all I got to say about that yeah and like Nemo said my understanding is that the printed version was never actually changed uh I think I went at the end of 2020 to Desert book and I found that they still had the manual with the with this racist quote even though redacted to make it sound less racist still racist um it was still there on the manuals right and that's my knowledge as well is that the printed one never changed they never did changed it because I think they're trying to print these off each year so I think it was just way too much money that they didn't want to fix that oh too much money for the church is it so so herard pointed out that there's you know there was these really racial quotes and then even in the 2020 they they tried to put these ellipses in and they try to make it sound less ra racist but it still was and so on on the online edition Nema do you want to do you want to read this one this is the online the online changes uh what was the curse that came upon the lamanites it's the same heading in Nephites day the curse of the lamanites was that they were cut off from the Lord's presence because of their iniquity this meant the spirit of the Lord was withdrawn from their lives when lamanites later embraced the Gospel of Jesus Jesus Christ The Curse Of God did no more follow them the Book of Mormon also states that a mark of dark skin Came Upon the lamanites after the Nephites separated from them the nature and appearance of this Mark are not fully understood oh get lost sorry that was me um the mark initially distinguished the lamanites from the Nephites later as both the Nephites and lamanites each went through periods of wickedness and righteousness the mark became irrelevant as an indicator of the lonit standing before God h prophets affirm in our day that dark skin is not a sign of divine disfavor or cursing the church Embraces Nephi's teaching that the Lord denieth none that come un him black and white Bond and free male and female president russem Nelson because of course we have to quote him uh declared the Lord has stressed his essential doctrine of equal opportunity for his children differences in culture language gender race and nationality Fade Into insignificance as the faithful end to the Covenant path and come unto our beloved Redeemer thank you sorry I had to add my sass love it yeah so they're trying to make it they're trying to make it softer the nature and appearance of this Mark are not fully understood that's the I hate they are the people whose job it is to understand it they are the people whose job it is to teach us what it means they are the people who's like they they have correlated Church curriculum because they want tight control over what all these things mean and what everyone's meant to understand by what they learn and they put out these lesson manuals the whole point point of a lesson manual is to help people learn about the scriptures you as people who claim to speak to God CLA claim to be special Witnesses of God don't get to just go yeah we don't really understand what it means because that opens up the doors for people like Jasmine and Neil to profer their own crazy theories about tattoos or paint or skins of animals or whatever because the church is not holding a definite position because they can't anymore yeah and but they don't that out shouldn't be open to Men Who claim to speak for deity and whose job it is to to teach us how to interpret scripture exactly that quote doesn't really Mak sense the fact that when Russell M Nelson is saying once you get baptized your gender doesn't really matter and F into insignificance it's like the Covenant path is significantly shorter for women it has less steps great Point herard yeah but I like that he talks about or I don't like it but he they say the mark became irrelevant as an indicator of the L standing before God like when are they saying it became irrelevant because it was very relevant up until the early 2000s right and then when apparently contemporaneously because when the apostasy cycle took hold of both groups apparently that was the point at which it didn't matter yeah but then also like the you pointed out the ellipses in these last slides hero and then you fill those in yeah but then here so to take out the ellipses they and to take out this Prophet from the 1960s they say prophets affirm in our day that dark skin is not a sign of disfavor so they're they're just like let's you know make it a cleaner area to work from by just making this statement and I'll say that uh prophets affirm I mean my understanding is that this affirmation is only on on on the race in the biskuit essay I don't think it's has ever been uh said in this way specifically or quoted um in this specific way in general conference I think there's been several uh talks in general conference about General race ISM but but but this quote specifically like they're saying they're putting it right here um it's only found in on the priesthood um race and priesthood essay which are not authored by the prophets if I'm not mistaken I'm pretty sure not authored by the prophets that's right so so again the prophets have said nothing other than all the things that we've discussed them saying up until this point which affirmed that it absolutely was about skin color so there there's no prophetic backing for a change and that's why this frustrates me they then go to Russ Nelson and go oh well he's saying we should all be lovy to each other and everyone's equal yeah but you haven't addressed the 10050 years or more of teachings that say otherwise and until you address those and make a declarative statement that they are no longer true and explain to us why they were taught for that long then and and apologize frankly then how we meant to trust you on anything moving forward because you can kind of trust people that have made mistakes if you know they'll own up to their mistakes when they realize they've made made them but it is clear that the church realizes it's made a mistake because they're wanting us to not think it's the case anymore but they're not willing to do the work to actually make amends for the mistake and move forward uh and again they're just making people like Jasmine lift their water carry their water for them um and therefore be at arms length and be cannon fodder for when people like us go well it's nonsense yeah right agree yeah so the I just have one more slide and this is just reflecting from the this year's come follow me manual in which there is an image here this is the this is an image of a battle that's taking place I guess this is in the section with Alma and Amai and uh this painting is by Scott M snow and if you can look if you look carefully you can see especially in this this left corner there's an individual who looks very native American to me I don't know if you guys think differently yeah very dark skinn he the big a Rings it's the hair up at top it's right minimal clothing it's very native American right well it's clearly that they're representing the Nephites because and the and distinguishing from the lamanites and what the lamanites look like or was it were supposed to look like right because the Book of Mormon is clear that the um amoc sites and the and Alma they were all Nephi descendants and they were all with their their uh robes when they were um they were uh in war it was like covering their whole skin and they had you know um more clothes and he talk specifically that the leites were only wearing uh something um you know they were not wearing the loin cloth or whatever chest and stuff so yeah so it's pretty clear that they're um trying to portray the the lemon nightes as Native American looking with dark skin and this is a depiction in 20124 look how white and delightsome that guy in the middle is I'm sorry he's got like a spotlight on his he's white and delightsome yeah for sure but no tattoos I don't see any tattoos I don't I don't see any black skin or coats red I see is clearly wounds of some kind right right steel swords as well they look vicious all right yeah so I think that like really clearly shows that the these theories are not were not had in the past and they shouldn't be had now there's no reason to even to even speculate on those and instead we should just confront the racism within the book of woman and deal with it right it's not that this can't be dealt with it's just that the church doesn't want to confront it and they just want to say that never happened and it was never there right right yeah yeah all right really quick I want to do I want to do a test with you guys can we do a test really quick yeah okay everyone uh look closely at the guy in the middle the main neight character right is it nephite or lonite Casey Elliott you mean both they're both descendants from lonite from Nephites what he's he's a knight right yeah okay I just want look at his face look at his face very carefully yeah okay now look at luk Wilson okay that's a better match what do you guys think huh match is Luke Wilson the the the focus of that don't you think I think so yeah yeah I'll give you that they look very similar bandana on his or yellow bandana on his head anyway I just had to had to add a little thank you John that's my contribution for this last part of the program so I guess with the one question that been thinking about is is there harm in a in a 2024 reader of the Book of Mormon to say oh this black skin could just mean paint or or tattoos or dark coats like yeah I guess it doesn't harm anything to think about that way but but what it does when you do that is it it like puts away or gets rid of the past de all these decades where where that wasn't the narrative and people were mistreated people Justified slavery because of this because of what how they view the Native Americans like there's no it's not I don't know how to word it but like there it's it's just wrong to do that it's unethical to to make these changes it's also just an incorrect reading of the Scripture it I guess the point I was trying to make is like it or loath it that is what the scripture teaches and if you're going to be a religious follower of that text you have to directly confront what it says as it says it plainly and work out how that's going to factor into your worldview not try and reinterpret the text so that you don't have to get uncomfortable with it right and again these the way that we are interpreting these texts come from God come from the God's mouthpieces his Apostles and Prophets not from apologetics from those who have supported us for over like almost 200 years um in interpreting these texts are saying this is clearly what it means um so who who are who are we to think otherwise yeah so we do have one more episode that we're going to be talking about we're going to be using the The Book of Mormon text itself to combat those uh three or four depending on how you look those those theories that they have so that's part three part three the prevailing theories and how the book of Morman disagrees yes and I I'm torn because this is such it's such silliness it's like arguing about whether Hobbits were the right size in Lord of the Rings or whether dwarfs could beat elves you know what I mean or whether the werewolves could beat the vampires in whatever that Stephanie Meyer series like it's all kind of silliness but it's also very serious in a way so it's just weird that we have to even be having this conversation but I think we're making our case pretty convincingly or or better said Julia you're making the case very convincingly and these are real people these aren't like mythical Hobbits or or vampires these are these are actual people that lived and were actually affected by this narrative that was pushed for for decades and still are as as Latin America hasn't gotten the memo neither is the Pacific island they haven't they haven't gotten Jasmine's memo right you know almost like Jasmine doesn't speak for that church but it's weird that the church pays them promotes them and lets them say these things it shows a level of Deceit I mean let's put the blame where it really belongs it's not on Jasmine it's not on Neil rapali they're tools they're literally tools the blame is on the top Church leadership that's letting this deception and this Miss information happen yes yeah well I think it's coming from the church's need to balance conservative and liberal or like small C conservative and liberal members like you know socially you know you've got people who are like this racism is not okay and I'm not okay with it right well you can just listen to Jasmine then and and pretend that she speaks for all of us and and if that makes you feel better and makes you keep paying your tithing then fine we don't really care but equally we're not going to out and out condemn it because there's still some pretty nasty racist people in our congregations who happen to pay us a lot of tithing money and we don't really want to upset them either so we're just going to keep it in and we're not going to disavow it we're we're equally not going to make those individuals who are paying us a lot of tithing money feel bad that for ages they were actively racist to members with black African ancestry and then in 1978 things changed and those that kind of held on but still want to be a bit racist well we're just going to let that happen too right there's there's like they they've got this Balancing Act I think it's I think it's very carefully calculated they'll just let Jasmine say what she wants to say and people who need to feel better about the racism will want to listen to what she says and they'll want to feel better about it but people who don't want to feel better about the racism and are quite okay with it they will just ignore her and be like well no prophet's taught its skin and it is still skin and they can keep being racist because some people still are and it's 2024 and I don't get why but they still are yeah yeah super weird all right well thank you Julia thank you herard and thank you Nemo um check out NE the Mormon podcast on YouTube I don't rant this much on my own page you more way more on your page what are you that's all your channel is is one big rant Nemo pretty much with salty meat pies and waxy bad you're on a warning now you're on a warning now John add an occasional snack yeah I should say anyway herard thanks for also being willing to come on and and help us with this episode it's always great to have you of course thank you for having me and Julia you do great work so thank you for uh all your work on this thanks all right right so again this series is best consumed in sequence you can check out LDS discussions podcast on Spotify or on Apple podcast there's also a playlist on the Mormon stories podcast YouTube channel where you can um where you can cons consume these in sequence from start to finish we highly recommend you check that out please share these episodes with Jasmine please share this episode with Jasmine with Neil with the folks at Book of Mormon Central please please put them on notice that they have some splaining to do I doubt they'll be courageous and and have enough Integrity to consider these arguments to listen and to adapt and apologize for their misinformation but I'll I'll give them a chance we'll give them a fair warning please uh email them these links um and uh and let's see if they if they edit or respond in any way but also we want to thank our donors that make all this possible we pay all the participants here um as generously as we know how to be I'll just that's a joke um we we pay everyone and we hope uh you know we can only do that with the donations that you give us so if you value this series if you want to see it continue if you value Mormon stories 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