Skin of Blackness and Mormon Apologetics
Original Air Date: 2024-09-20
Here is a detailed summary of the video "Skin of Blackness and Mormon Apologetics," based on the provided transcript.
Overview and Purpose
This video is Part 3 of a series on the Mormon Stories Podcast titled "LDS Discussions." Host John Dehlin, alongside co-hosts Julia, Gerardo, and Nemo the Mormon, critiques the arguments of modern Latter-day Saint apologists regarding the "skin of blackness" curse in the Book of Mormon 1, 2.
The discussion focuses specifically on the work of Jasmin and Neal Rappleye from Scripture Central (formerly Book of Mormon Central). The panel argues that these apologists, funded by wealthy donors aligned with the LDS Church, attempt to redefine the Book of Mormon's racist language—specifically the "skin of blackness"—to mean something other than literal skin color (e.g., garments, paint, or tattoos) 3-5. The hosts contend that these theories contradict the text itself, the footnotes in official LDS scriptures, and the teachings of past Church prophets 6, 7.
Critique of Apologetic Theories
The panel systematically debunks four specific theories proposed by Jasmin Rappleye to explain away the literal interpretation of dark skin in the Book of Mormon.
4. The "Symbolic/Metaphorical" Theory
The "Surprise" Slide: Official Church Messaging
Gerardo introduces a clip from the LDS Church's official YouTube channel featuring a black convert. In the video, the convert is initially troubled by the racism in the Book of Mormon but finds peace reading 2 Nephi 26:33 ("black and white, bond and free") 26, 27.
The panel criticizes the Church's double standard:
Conclusion
The episode concludes with the assertion that the LDS Church is "muddying the waters" by funding apologists to create confusion. This allows members to choose their preferred truth: either the "prophetic" literal interpretation or the "apologetic" symbolic interpretation 31, 32. The hosts argue that the most honest reading of the text is that it reflects the racist worldview of its 19th-century author, Joseph Smith, and that the Church relies on apologists to distract from this reality because the actual prophets remain silent or contradictory on the issue 25, 33.
Condensed ~5 minute video overview of the full episode, AI-generated by NotebookLM.
Condensed podcast-style audio overview of the full episode, AI-generated by NotebookLM.
AI-generated slideshow powered by NotebookLM (multi-page PDF)
AI-generated infographic powered by NotebookLM (single-page PDF)
hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon stories podcast LDS discussions Edition I am your host John delin it's uh Wednesday August 21st 2024 I'm officially 55 years old yesterday was my birthday and uh we're excited to be back discussing Mormon church truth claims uh as dis passionately and as objectively as is possible with this LDS discussion series to today we're going to be covering part three in a three-part series on LDS discussions where we're discussing uh both the book of Mormon's teachings around the skin of Blackness or the curse of the lonit the lonite curse and how modern-day apologists like Jasmine oh how do I pronounce it what's the correct pronunciation rapley rapley I can't I can't remember rapley it's rapley how Jasmine rapley and her husband Neil yeah have done their best to pollute the waters maybe not intentionally but at least unintentionally to try and claim that when the Book of Mormon because the skin of Blackness teaching is so horrendous so vile so racist uh and that's just objective fact uh modern-day Mormon apologists are trying to claim that when the Book of Mormon said uh skin of Blackness it meant uh animal Furs or tattoos or paint and uh my friends Julia herard and Nemo are having none of that and so we'll bring in them back for part three uh remember everyone that this LDS discussion series is best consumed in sequence this is like the 46th or something uh episode is that right in the series and um you're best to benefit from it by going back to the beginning and watching them in sequence uh you can find it on Spotify as its own podcast uh Apple podcasts and there's a playlist um on the Mormon stories podcast YouTube channel where you can watch these in sequence uh did I get that uh episode number right Julia yeah I think so yeah okay all right well welcome Julia how you been doing I'm great yeah good to have you back um of course we have Nemo the Mormon from Nemo the Mormon hey Nemo hey how we going how's your how's your waxy chocolate today uh my my delicious National Treasure of a chocolate is excellent um you don't look a day over 55 John um happy birthday and herard how you doing oh you're muted herard here we go I'm doing great all right well well it's good to have you okay well this is part three in the series so Julia where should where did we leave off and where do you want to take us yeah so the the first episode that we did we talked about the different theories and then how Joseph Smith framed those and how it was act skin meant skin and then this part two that we've done we went through the teachings of the past prophets up until till now and then talking about how they understand the the skin of Blackness in the Book of Mormon and how it actually did mean skin and today we're going to look at the text of the Book of Mormon and combat the there's like really four different theories of of paint skin color tattoos and then Sy symbol that it's symbolic and so today we're going to go through those and the Book of Mormon text to see if that supports if the text supports these different theories and show that it doesn't um so to start you've already kind of introduced um Neil and Jasmine rap raple I think is is how we've been told that it's actually pronounced so Neil I don't know if you guys know more than I do uh Neil rapley is the director of research and they're in the Book of Mormon Central and then scripture Central so those are two different websites if I understand correctly they're basically professional paid Mormon apologists right you know doing the bidding of the church basically right and then as the director of research I don't know how much backing he has about about like is he coming up with these theories or is he the one that's pushing like hey is there is there like because I know that they're looking at they're looking at the scholarly research of others but I don't know who's pushing these theories I don't know if it's him um or others but I know that Jasmine his wife is um the face of of a book of Mormon Central or scripture plus particularly the uh no why series it was interesting in his bio it said that he's the director of the no why series um and she's the one that presents that series there's a direct link of them working together there I mean herard and I have covered in the past uh the way the church has always worked with apoll well has traditionally worked with apologetics for a long long time they formally sponsored like Farms or the Maxwell Institute through BYU and that's how Mormon apologists would get funded at some point the church lost confidence in the Maxwell Institute uh they actually got rid of Daniel Peterson they got rid of Spencer fluman as I am as I am now being told and uh the Maxwell Institute isn't really doing apologetics anymore they're just kind of floating BYU trying to do faithful scholarship but not apologetics and so the church realized that um that it it it gets a black eye when it formally supports bad arguments um unprofessional unscientific reasoning ad homonym attacks and so what they do is now the church encourages wealthy Mormons to donate to these nonprofits like Book of Mormon Central uh like the more good foundation and others and then these arms length nonprofits will support literally any apologetic that they think is working whether it's a ward radio and um you know those folks or or whether it's Neil and Jasmine and others they don't care what's true I think they just care about what apologetics make Mormons feel better about believing in orthodox Mormonism what do you think Julia and herard yeah and you and you did say previously that um the church is funding Book of Mormon Central and scripture Central right through wealthy Mormons through wealthy okay so yeah the church sells wealthy Mormons and I think sometimes their own herard what yeah I think um on the episode we were uh we did about um or actually you did John called entitled uh Mormon apologetics and violence um on that one we were able to show from the uh 990s that the LDS church uh itself is funding the morg good foundation and Bam Morman Central at at least those two yeah uh especially uh Mor good foundation I think a large percentage a few years ago of their contributions came directly from the church um like hundreds of thousands of dollars if I remember correctly and also and then more good foundation than funnels the money to Fair Mormon and wi Mormon Central uh and and the um what's the other found interpreter Foundation yeah but the Book of Mormon Central receives also money directly from the church yeah okay I just want to throw throw something out there um because John mentioned Spencer fluman I just want to say he was in my ward for a little while um last year and I really like him as a person may not always agree with his views or his positions but you know we're trying to be dis passionate and fair so I thought I have an opportunity there to say there's someone on the opposite side of the argument that I actually really like as a person and have spent some time with sry Oh by all accounts a great person and and my what I've been told is that Jeffrey Holland told him that he was like a son to him and then when the pressures sort of the Maga Neo fundamentalist pressures that uh arose postco hit Elder Holland Elder Holland through Spencer flumen under the bus uh and and had him kicked out that's what I've heard I can't from reliable sources I don't but but yeah Spencer by all accounts is a great human so I wish him well yeah yeah okay sorry that was a change of pace so to start there's a clip from Jasmine that I wanted to share this is from her Tik Tok scripture plus and here she's talking about how Joseph Smith changed some of the text of the book of Mormon in 1842 so we'll just go ahead and play that clip likewise the skin of Blackness that Nephi describes falling upon the lamanites was not necessarily physical but rather it symbolizes a spiritual death being cut off from the Lord their souls were in spiritual Darkness toward the end of his record Nephi prophesied that when the Lites came to know Jesus Christ again they shall be a white and Delight some people now later Joseph Smith clarified this passage in the 1842 edition of The Book of Mormon to read a pure and delightsome people to make crystal clear that this is talking about spiritual Purity not skin color Okay so the the change in the text was actually made in 1840 you can see the 1840 Edition on the Joseph Smith papers website and um however and oh also in the most recent edition of The Book of Mormon in 2013 it still has this change um pure is still change or white is still changed to pure and that's still reflected in our scriptures um but one thing she doesn't point out is that elsewhere in the text of the Book of Mormon uh White is still white it's not not every reference to skin color being white has been changed to Pure so for example in 1 Nei 13:15 it says and I beheld that they were white and exceedingly fair and beautiful like unto my people before they were slain and this is talking about skin color and this one's not changed to Pure also another example is from second E5 521 where the curse actually takes place and it says for behold they had hardened their hearts against him they they had become like unto a flint wherefore as they were white and exceedingly fair and delightsome that they may not be enticing unto my people therefore the Lord God did cause a skin of Blackness to come upon them and that is still white not pure I think that's really important to point out the way that Jasmine has done that the technique she's used is to essentially go oh okay right uh Nephi talks in second Nei about them receiving a skin of Blackness and how they went from being white um but that white wasn't skin color because look somewhere else in the book that refers back to that changed it to Pure so therefore the meaning has changed in both contexts but no because in the original context it still hasn't changed white is still white there's there's no change there so we can get into the inconsistency then of Joseph Theology and all that sort of stuff but it clearly wasn't a theologically consistent change across the board that all of a sudden actually wherever it said white it really meant pure right exactly it's also kind of sneaky to kind of give uh your audience the impression that Joseph Smith went in and corrected uh White for pure and saying like that's why he doesn't mean skin and that's why it's not talking about white skin when she knows that it's not everywhere and it's just a single passage where that was changed and there's multiple other passages where clearly is talking about skin and white skin and black skin and skin of Blackness um and that those passages were not changed so um exactly that that's just really because she said that Joseph wanted to make it Crystal Clear didn't she he wanted to make it crystal clear that this wasn't about skin well if he wanted to make it Crystal Clear he would have changed it everywhere especially where the curse happens right yeah exactly especially at the origin of the doctrine right right yeah right another thing that I wanted to point out this so the chapter headings are not from the the Golden Plates but they are taken I believe from from how previously they were taken from apostles you have Bruce armoni and then recently they change they updated them and I'm pretty sure it goes through the same process of these Apostles approving these um but you'll notice the chapter heading was changed in this in in second Nei so it said it used to say because of their unbelief the Lites are cursed receive a skin of Blackness to the New Edition in 2013 which now reads because of their unbelief the Lites are cut off from the presence of the Lord and are cursed so like they're even in the heading it's changing a point to make that about the right KN knowing how like reluctant our church are to canonize anything to put anything new in scripture for them to change the headings of canonized AIO scripture that is not something that's done lightly it's not something done you would imagine by someone other than Apostles and Prophets um do we know exactly who does that John or herado I I'm not sure okay because there's like the scripture correlation committee and that sort of stuff right that goes on but ultimately that that is being signed off by the leades of the church I'm sure if you go back in fact and look at the 2013 launch videos for the new Quad where they're saying that we've made some updates and whatnot that was I believe Quintel cook or Neil L Anderson I always get them mixed up in my sort of mind's eye but one of those two is sat holding the new Quad and talking about some of the changes that have happened to the chapter headings and reassuring everyone that nothing theologically has changed um I can distinctly remember that video in my mind's eye so uh yeah I'll have to go and have a look into that yeah maybe we can share that in the show notes because that's super interesting so like that's even shows that these Brethren are approving and that's how they understand they're moving it away from trying to move it away from skin color or skin what what that means but then just before we move on has any profit actually this is a question for the group has any profit we know that loads of them have said skin uh it meant skin loads of them have said that it was about a skin of Blackness it was about dark skin has any Prophet or Apostle ever come out and said that wasn't the case or has it only ever been apologists only apologists okay yeah the the for those who aren't Mormon and are just kind of tuning into this the the big pickle the Mormon church has is they they they teach to their members that they speak for God and Jesus directly that when a prophet speaks it's as if God and Jesus themselves are speaking but of course they're products of their time and in some ways their product of 50 years before their time or 80 years before their time and so when they say say racist sexist homophobic hateful unscientific things uh the church gets stuck with it because they can't ever apologize or say they were wrong because if if if any past propit is denounced or corrected then it immediately calls into question the authority of current prophets seers and revelators and so what the church the only thing the church can do is have surrogates provide D explanations to pacify and mulfy the members um and then slowly change but never admit to the changes and never uh admit to the members that they're making changes they just quietly redirect uh silence or delete or hide past evidence and then act like it it has always been so I the way the church works exactly on that Point John I've just been looking on the website at the 2013 scripture announcement and there's a website about the church and then you click a link see what changes were made and it says page not found so yeah that's that's it couldn't have been better timing the church often does this pages will just disappear off the website um five or 10 years after they were there and everyone wers okay I swear I remember that and no no no it was it was never the case we've always been at war with East Asia but that's how this works they they they they're never GNA like in a general conference say hey everybody by the way skin means paint or skin means tattoos there that's never going to happen and it was Anderson by the way looking at this web page it was Anderson that was talking about the new addition of scriptures so it got some Apostolic sign off for sure maybe we can find that elsewhere rather than I'm going to find that video you know I'm going to find it anyway let's carry on with today's episode I wanted to say too this reminded me of the I think we shared the clip or we talked about the clip from the Jubilee episode where uh I can't remember his name who's the who was on the panel of the Jubilee where he says I've never read it that way um uh well there's I think quu it was quu yeah where he says that he in talking about the Book of Mormon in the skin of Blackness he says he's never read it as Skin um but to to read to not understand it as skin color to act actual skin is to not understand what past prophets and apostles have said and what the text is actually saying or what even history has reflected so like it's just silly to think of it in any other way yeah I don't I don't think quu can be trusted when he's saying such things I I think he's officially unofficially on the payroll of the church and he'll say whatever he feels like he should say to keep in good graces with those who pay his salary and they could say the same thing about us but I don't think it's the same thing honestly well because we have no no one that dictates what we say or what we think or what opinions we are to hold right there's no line for us to follow they would say we make money as ex Mormons and so we have to say what ex Mormons want us to say I think that's what they would say no I'm I'm gonna say right now X Mormon's are far too tribal guys calm it down go go look at that's G to upset some people but there we are yeah sorry say what we say um I mean people are more good foundation are making a lot of money you can go look at the90s pretty and they get a lot more funds than than uh Mormon stories does Oh you mean overall Revenue yeah so like if it was about money we would be better off going to the other band I think yeah I would have been better staying at Microsoft that's what I well even more good imagine being the CEO of more good yeah yeah okay okay so one of the things I wanted to do is kind of go through her her claims and so the first one is her clip and she's talking about um seeing the skin of Blackness as garments as as clothing when the book Mormon says that the Layon knites had a skin of Blackness it's not skin let me show you why this is part of a larger series I'm doing and all of the theories surrounding the skin of Blackness in the Book of Mormon so definitely check those out so this Theory requires us to look very closely at what the book Mormon text actually says about skins without our modern assumptions and biases getting in the way so just take a look at this passage and see if you can notice how these Skins are being used the lemonades were naked sa it were a skin which was girded about their loins and the skins of lamanites were dark according to the mark which was set upon their fathers based on this one in other passages Ethan Sprout suggested that the dark skins could have actually been animal skins worn as symbolic clothing in both the book woman in the Bible skin can refer to animal skin garments such as when Adam and Eve were clothed in the coats of skins and early Christian ERS saw Adam and Eve's coats of skins as representing their mortal sinful state in contrast with the garments of light that they would symbolically gain at baptism so by this Theory the Lites were consciously putting this Mark on themselves by wearing distinctive clothing made out of animal skin as a cultural marker this is only one of several theories Scholars have proposed around this skin of Blackness so if you want to learn about the other ones watch the next video or read no y 718 um I had a random thought while she was talking um so in the in the temp we receive garments receive our like underwear that's white and it's symbolic of of the clothing the garments that um Adam and Eve were given or made and here she's trying to say that or there was a picture of them and they were wearing black fur so like why are our garments not black if anyway I just had that thought um anyway were there were there initial thoughts before we go before we go on I mean this just with what she said um she she's you know she's basically saying that skins can mean animal skins well yes they can but it's all context dependent you and then talks about coat of skins and it's the same with the whole tapier thing where it's like well you know a hippopotamus it means River horse yeah cool so there's a qualifier there it kind of looks like a horse but it's a horse of the river right prairie dog Etc it's the same here coat of skins makes it very clear it's a coat made of skins of an animal of some kind when you just say skin and you're talking about people you're talking about the stuff that covers their body the largest organ of the human body right if you were talking about skins as in animal skins you would add that additional qualifier you would say animal skins or coats of skins or garments of skins or clothes of skins or loyon cloths of skins whatever right and it's it's that saying oh right well skins can mean something else yes but there's usually a qualifier yeah that's my only thought there although it was interesting reading through these these texts and to see how Joseph Smith wrote and how um I don't think of it as really impressive writing but this is this this these verses in Alma four verses five and six kind of give examples of both of of what they mean skin as in clothing and skin as in um actual skin um do you want to read that hero yeah um Alma 4526 um now the head of the the heads of the lonit were Shor and they they were naked sa it were skin which was girded about their loins and also their armor which was girded about them and their bow bows and their arrows and their stones and their slings and so forth and the skins of the lamanites were dark according to the mark which was set up on their fathers which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their Rebellion against their Brethren who consisted of Nephi Jacob and Joseph and Sam who were just and holy men wow that's interesting yeah so here like so I was trying to find other verses that could fit with this but like skin because here in the same chapter it means two different things first it means clothing and then it means the skin and then it talks about the curse do you guys have any other thoughts about about this passage um I sorry do you muted you go okay so I was just gonna say about um I mean I think the qualifier that the Nemo is talking about is pretty evident here uh where it's it's making it very clear that uh that the skin that uh was that was covering them was the one that was geared about their loins animal skin right that would be animal skin and then the next one is about the skins of the Layon nightes that were marked by by God and and remember this is a curse and it's also making the reference that the curse that came upon the lamanites came from God God did did not give uh the lamanites black um black animal skins animal fur who cover their loins this was not an Adam and Eve story you know like um so I don't know I see it as very different here and it's clearly making that distinction have you have you done the footnotes argument next Julia have we have we got that as a slide or do you want me to point that out now uh point that out now okay right so um I would say here the easiest way to do it is if you look at where it says skins of Lites were dark not only does it refer back to the curse like herard said which means then we have to look at the verse of the cursing to understand what skin means because it's referential back to that you can't just take it out of the context of the verse with which and the curse with which it's referring to but also what does the footnotes where does the footnotes lead where do the footnotes when it says skins the Skins the Lites were dark what's the footnote on the word skins I'm pretty sure you'll find it takes you back to Second Nephi where it's talking about the cursing and we know from plain understanding of that verse that that is a physical curse of their skin going dark so these later verses can't escape the fact that they are connected by the church itself back to the original curse scripture that's what I'd say here but yeah it goes directly back to Second eii 521 which in which the curse was given so yes so even in the text itself in the footnotes it references back to this curse and that's key the church itself is saying skins in this verse verse six is talking about the same skins that are in second Nephi when we're talking about the curse being given so it's tightly bound to the context of that right yeah I just want to can I just add that it's important to understand what what Jasmine's doing here what Jasmine and Neil are doing here they they're trying to create plausible explanations for a teaching that's just horrid and unacceptable and you'll you'll notice that she's not she doesn't particularly care whether it's animal skins or tattoos or paint she doesn't care what what she wants to do is is Advance any possible theories throw any mud at the wall so that for a believing member they'll just say oh oh it doesn't mean it's not God wasn't racist The Book of Mormon wasn't racist it may be skin it may be tattoos yeah it may be paint you know who knows but there's some smart person speaking words that make it so that I don't have to face the reality that God in the book of Mor Mormon are super racist that's what's going on here and I just want to make sure we understand that so I just checked her video on her YouTube channel and there's over 110,000 views and of course people could be viewing it like we are in a kind of a critical way but I also worry that people are are taking these theories seriously and that bothers me because when to believe anything other than skin is to discredit history is to discredit the apost the the revealed word of God from these Apostles and Prophets through through all until till now I guess because the even the leaders aren't saying differently they're not saying it's tattoos or anything like that so it's it just is really messy to try to accept this as as real and this is why I think I pointed out in the last episode These apologists need to be censored by the church more than uh funded by them because they're undermining the words of past prophets they're undermining The credibility of prophets when they make a statement to say this is what this is what the scriptures are saying this is what the doctrine is apologist just come along and say no they were wrong and we know better you know if any of us try to say we know better than the prophets we're shut down immediately and told to stay in our lane why did these guys get to do it and why do they get paid by the church to do it it's an important thing to remember that Dynamic is hypocritical when the church tries to shut down things that don't agree with them they'll say oh it's because we we are the ones that are in charge of the narrative we are the ones to get the revealed word of God but these people are free to contradict the words of past prophets as long as it benefits the church's aim now in wanting to appear less racist right exactly right okay so I wanted to keep going with this chapter uh John do you want to read this one this is from Alma 3 okay uh garments the lonite curse and the skins of the lamanites were dark according to the mark which was set upon their fathers which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their Rebellion against their Brethren who consisted of Nephi Jacob and Joseph and Sam who were just and holy men and their Brethren sought to destroy them therefore they were cursed and the Lord God set a mark upon them yay upon Layman and lemel and also the sons of Ishmael and Ishmael itish women and this was done that their seed might be distinguished from the seed of their Brethren and thereby the Lord God might preserve his people that they might not mix and believe in the in the in in incor Traditions which would prove their destruction and it came to pass that whosoever did mingle his seed meaning sperm with that of the lamanites did bring the same curse upon his seed therefore whosoever suffereth himself to be led Away by the lamanites was called under that head and there was a mark set upon him and I think herard don't you agree that these verses take on a whole new meeting after and you two Julia after reading Matt Harris's book um yeah second class Saints for sure yeah and I think John is referencing so the whole the the L the uh excuse me the curse of ham or the curse of Cain the reason that was implemented was because briam young did not want black men sleeping with white women or you know any black people sleeping with white people so like that's what I was thinking when you were reading that and it's like incredibly trusting of the Lord of a people that he has cursed to be like guys you just need to go out and get black animal skins like whenever you have a kid and just make sure they're always dressed in these dark skins just in case and then like if you know anyone else goes astray and joins your group then you know you got to put those black skins on straight away what do you mean you could use them as a spy and try and undermine your mortal enemies no no no no make sure you're always distinguishable please and thank you and I'm going to trust you to sort that out seem silly exactly that reminds me it's been a while since I've read the book more but there's a story where where I one of the captains one of the fight captains goes around and he tries to find somebody who's lonite descendant and he finds a guy and he he's like hey I need you to lead this this ban we'll get we'll go get the lamanites drunk and so like he went around searching it's not like he could just throw dark skins on anybody he went and found this man who had black skin and his name I think was actually Layman or laan it was one of the names of one of the brothers but anyway so like so like if it was if that's the case then why is this story in the book of right and it also means that Joseph Smith avoided yet another problematic thing at least Joseph Smith didn't include blackface in the Book of Mormon because that's what that story could have also led to so I'm glad he didn't go there with that one um because it would just be another problematic feather in the cap of this whole thing yeah so um what it seems really disingenuous from J uh from Jasmine or for Jasmine to do is to uh talk about this theory of skin of Blackness meaning animal skin and uh reference or in either directly or indirectly this passages that like make may make it mean um animal skin and then literally avoid telling her viewers that the next uh uh the very next versus undermine her theory of it being animal skins right uh the one that uh could make a mean animal skins is verse five but then 6 S8 nine they're all talking about seed and and mingle his seed and and that that doesn't have anything to do with animal skin it's clearly that that this is a genetic thing that um that uh that Joseph Smith was was thinking about right like and and when two dark people mix then they create a someone a a a a dark baby so therefore you know they pass the uh the C curse to them and then if if someone else outside of the of the lamanites come and mixes with them then the curse was also going to be passed to them that this is there he's obviously talking about uh having kids and and um anyway and PR yeah yeah yeah and then like I like hear in verse seven of Alma 3 it says L ishish women and so like to reference the women specifically is to reference seed is to reference having children and you're not just going to like Nemo said you're not just going to put the skin on these newborn babies and be like now you're this is as symbol AS of your curse or like and like it's not God doing it and like can you just remove the the garments whenever you want and just not be cursed like it doesn't make any sense it's just really silly to me I mean if God was going to curse anything and he wanted to make it all about skins and he would have just cursed their sheep so that they only produce dark wool then they only have access to dark clothing materials from now on that's great okay so we're going so we're going to go back to look at um second eepi 521 where the curse was given and just look at this verse again with this idea of of garments um Nemo do you want to read this one yeah and I'll say that this is the one that all those refer back to exactly second Nei 5 21-23 and he had caused the cursing to come upon them yay even a sore cursing because of their iniquity for behold they had hardened their hearts against him that they had become like unto a flint wherefore as they were white and exceeding fair and delightsome that they might not be enticing unto my people therefore the Lord God did cause a skin of Blackness to come upon them and thus saith the Lord God I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people save they shall repent of their iniquities and cursed shall be the seed of him that mixthe for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing and the Lord spake it and it was done and because of their cursing which was upon them they did become an idle people full of mischief and subtlety and did seek in the wilderness for beasts of prey yeah so again this is this is about see this you could use to combat I feel like this is the verse where the curse happens and you can use it to combat the garments the paint the tattoos the symbolism because he says if your seed mixes with their seed and their curse all the other seed will be cursed so like and then and then again as we referenced in the the last episodes this is how Joseph understood it he his first revelation about polygamy was to mix the seed and to to turn turn The Children white and then even briam young had that understanding like throughout the all of it that that's what they had this understanding of course you have Spencer Kimble who who thought that you know by their righteousness they would be uh turned white and and then use the the Indian student placement program to say that it was happening um so I guess there you have righteousness rather than anyway but yeah all the other leaders understood it to be to be seed it's also um really interesting how this matches the uh Mount Builder uh myth right and oh exactly how uh people in Joseph Smith's time would see uh the the quote unquote Savages Indians who were dark and and and there's no way they could have built this big cities and and and or or Mound and then they have to kind of reduce them to uh This Racist idea of them being you know hunters and what can you put this the scripture back now you're good um and uh where it says and because of this cursing uh which was upon them they become Idol people full of mischief and did seek in the wilderness for beasts of prey so he's not just saying they're they're dark he's also you know uh matching This Racist theme that of how uh people at his time saw the Indians exactly yeah the the racism in the book of morm is not just the skin color it is the is the behaviors it is the the the lifestyle of these people that is so racist and yeah in the entire Book of Mormon yeah okay so the next I want to talk about um uh Ethan Sprout for a second so so she referenced him in the video that we we just watched so interestingly in his 2015 paper titled skins as garments in the Book of Mormon a textual I don't know how to say that word ex ex Jesus yeah that's right EXO Jesus Ethan Sprout stated that such inference that the skin of blackon spent human flesh was perhaps ostensibly sensible and self-explanatory to the Book of Mormon the book of Mormon's initial euroamerican 19th century audience and the reason I pull this is because I think this is because to me from my perspective and my understanding is that Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon and I think a lot of Scholars now will say that there's a lot of his even faithful members of the church will say that Joseph Smith's life or Joseph Smith's experiences made it into the text and so Ethan's saying that yeah of course it's it makes sense that Joseph Smith would have understood it to mean to mean flesh to mean skin skin color like but if Joseph Smith wrote it then like this is just as evidence to me that Joseph Smith wrote the book Mormon is because it was so obvious to him and carried throughout all these decades I know if you guys have I I I love uh Ethan's face in this slide it's really like oh really Jasmine you're using my work to say skin doesn't mean skin huh because you know he's he's making it very clear that that is I think what I take from this is that he's saying that was what would have been understood by Joseph Smith's contemporary audience the original no matter who wrote the book on woman it would have been absolutely understood by whoever read it at that time that it was talking about skin because that that made sense to everyone who was who was reading it and that has been held since that time that view has been held and God has not come in with flaming swords or even just a whispered word to tell anyone that's not actually the case not anyone who has the authority to make that declaration anyway he's possibly app appeared to Jasmine and her husband and said yeah guys they're all wrong but you're right um but you know he hasn't he certainly hasn't said it to anyone who's told us from a position of Authority that this isn't what what Ethan's saying here isn't exactly what the scriptures meant yeah right so like Joseph Smith's audience he writes this spook of Mormon and the audience was like oh yeah of course of course we believe this because that's what everyone else believes during this time period but like if Joseph Smith if this wasn't the case Joseph Smith who is the prophet SE and Revelator speaks to God has his sear Stones has whatever he's speaking to Angels regularly like why wouldn't like this would be the time where to say oh no it's not anything to do with skin color like why did that not happen yeah I mean it would have been more incredible if Joseph had turned around to the people at the time and gone oh no no put away your put away your ideas about the mound builders Etc right this isn't about skin this is something different that would have been quite incredible and revolutionary for the time sorry herado yeah oh I was just gonna say um yeah it's kind of interesting that uh the guy who translated the the the book and the people who read it at the time the people who it was supposedly written for right the people at 1820 which uh was I think apologist would say that the book of a lot of the things in the Book of Mormon are most relevant to the people at the time where Joseph Smith um came out with the book Mormon and all these people and for over a hundred years plus all these prophets here and revelators and apostles they all got her wrong but then we have Jasmine and there a couple other apologists today you know trying to change the narrative and interpretation and saying oh they got it all wrong the entire time and then add to that the fact that the Brethren today are not aligning or at least speaking publicly about this new interpretation of uh black skins not meaning black skin and and that I think really tells us that apologists are getting an official nod from church leaders because I can't imagine the the level of hubris it would take otherwise for a believing member of the church someone who sustains these men as prophet seers and revelators to espouse theories that essentially say all these men were wrong they were all wrong the only way you're going to do that as a believing member surely is if you get the official nod from church leaders to go yeah you're okay saying that you're okay to to kind of ride rough shot over past beliefs that's fine you can do that uh that will be helpful to us because otherwise that that's got to take a lot of hubris which I don't think necessarily Jasmine and her husband possess um I don't think they really think that they know something that nobody else knows I think they're getting the nod from people that they believe in and sustain to say yeah you you're okay to espouse that theory that's fine by us yeah that's so interesting um okay so the next one that we're going to talk about is paint and then we're going to go through her video about paint this next Theory leads us to analyze art from the classic Maya which illustrates that many Elites darkened their skins with paints stains and pigments for ceremonial purposes and as camouflage for Warfare hunting and plunder this fits with the book of pretty well since the first time the Nephites would have come in contact with the lamanites would almost certainly have been during a time of war and Nephi even noted that the lamanites were known as hunters in the wilderness for beasts of prey and this is what led Garrett and Myck to propose that the lamanites mark themselves by painting their skins dark this body painting may have been done as part of pre-war rituals where the Warriors would whisper curses on the enemy while applying the paint charcoal and so were often times used in these skin darkening paints which could have linked them to filthiness in the Nephites point of view on some ceremonial occasions ritual participants would fast for several days and cover themselves with black paint or soot only to be cleansed of the black soot both physically and symbolically purified at the end of the past so perhaps something similar took place through the purifying ritual of baptism when when some lamanites had their curses taken from them and their skin became White like unto the Nephites oh my God Jasmine I thought that you know I thought that filthiness was purely a spiritual thing I didn't think that you were espousing it was physical but now apparently it's charcoal dust right and didn't she say earlier that go uh Joseph Smith changed the word wide from Pure from White pure because it's not really a change in color yes but now it is a changing color like it's just yeah it is just throwing whatever at the wall and sees what what sort of what sticks um well and one thing I'll say because since I have uh a a significant percentage of Maya blood in me is that the lemonides are not the Maya or the Maya are not the lonit so even though this is a Maya tradition um it it serves of no purpose if you can't prove or say that the Maya were were the lonit because we don't know who the lonit are are we don't know uh where they lived or um who their descendants are yeah no offense to your Maya ancestors but they're not really relevant to this are they you know like and this is the problem again with this whole hemispheric model it's just wasn't what was believed by Joseph Smith and his contemporaries the people that started the religion didn't believe that this was all going on in central South America so looking to Central and South America for justifications for things that happened in the Book of Mormon that according to Joseph Smith happened purely in the north part of the United States it's not really helpful to anyone right right Joseph Smith didn't believe that it happened in central because as we talked about in part one Joseph Smith was sending men on missions to like Ohio New York Missouri like the Layon nightes were here in the United States they're not Joseph didn't see them as being Maya and so like but also she also referenced to video that that for ceremonial reasons that's why they painted themselves so like they're only cursed during the ceremonies like I and then not all of them are are cursed and only go and mingle your seed during ceremonial times and then paint the babies and like like it doesn't like to have a be paint makes no sense like for for something that's described so negatively and is clearly meant to ruin their social status amongst the Nephites and is clearly meant to make their life difficult when it comes to the only other group that they can trade with and you know they aren't half trusted according to Jasmine to just distinguish themselves at all times yeah I agree right and human beings naturally we want to try and get along when we can we want to try and you know be be a bit closer and that sort of thing so yeah so there's a verse in thiri that I wanted to read this is thiri 215 through 16 and it says and it came to pass that those lamanites which had United with the Nephites were numbered Among the Nephites and their curse was taken from them and their skin became White became White like unto the Nephites and their young men and their daughters became exceeding fair and they were numbered Among the Nephites and they were called Nephites so another example of where Joseph didn't change white to Pure oh gosh right so like here I I guess you can see it as like the because they're saying that as soon as they were they were numbered among the KN fights they became white but also like you have the you have um uh Spencer Kimble who was looking at the skin color and how he really thought that their skin color was changing to White right and like he didn't take into account that they were in homes now and that they were being fed differently or they're like receiving different sunlight levels like but I mean it was still skin color so like anyway yeah no and and again something I just want to point out here where it says exceeding fair exct to say exceedingly Fair that's so much Joseph Smith's own work words there right that that is so much 19th century American grammar they became exceeding Fair it's it's like it's just one of the little sort of thumb prints of Joseph to the text herard did you want to say something about that well also what if it was pain what does exceeding Fair have to do with like removing someone's pain from their yeah you know it's it's saying they became more beautiful so it's equating white skin or whiter skin to uh to you know being beautiful or more attractive which is totally what people in Joseph Smith's time would believe and again it was taken from them we've talked a lot about uh the fact that the Skins you know the Skins doesn't work because God put the curse on them it's like the curse here was taken from them like was the paint just forcibly removed in some way because you would imagine if this was a a ceremony of washing oneself then it would be described as such not just that this paint was taken off them and all of a sudden they became White and then their young men and their daughters also just became White um like that if that was the case it would be described as such yeah I don't see the the utility of just it being a short of curse being a shorthand for a physical process that could be described because if you could describe it you would but you can't describe a cursing of the changing of skin color other than in the terms of calling it a curse and then talking about skin becoming and people becoming Fair which is what's being described so it seems obvious that that's what's happening I also think it's interesting that he talks about young men and their daughters like he often brings in these these like the women and how like they were also exceeding Fair because I think he's trying to perpetuate this idea of of having seed and like now they're young men and they're young women who have lots of seed or you know are able to have children they are also fair so that their seed is not cursed so it's like there's always like a genealogical element isn't there there's always like and the children also then become this so he's he's showing that it's a cross-generational thing and it's about the mixing of the seed it's about how the Next Generation then look because because this is a story ultimately of how because we're looking back at the mound builder myth how a group of white individuals were wiped out and became dark by the mixture of seed and other reasons right so he's constantly laying that narrative out right okay so there's another so I think one of the biggest reasons I she doesn't talk about this I think she talks about it in a different video but one of the things that was obvious in my mind is this the story of the is it amoc sites or am kites I don't know how to say it um it's all made up it doesn't matter right right so there's a story in Alma 3 where it says that the Amo sites were distinguished from the Nephites for they had marked themselves with red in their foreheads after the manner of the lamanites nevertheless they had not Shor their heads like under the Lites now the heads Lites were shorn and they were naked save it were skin which is girded by their lines and so like like they're they're marking themselves with red and so so there's an image here on the side where this is from the The Book of Mormon stories reader the children's reader and they're painting themselves like it's literal paint and then the caption says like the lamanites the amoc sites or alites Mark themselves with red which fulfilled a prophecy the Amit had separated themselves from the blessing of the Gospel blessings of the gospel and why did they have to mark themselves with with red I wonder is it because they weren't dark skinned by chance and they wanted to make themselves look like not Knights anymore yeah right so they're like both white and then you have yeah if it wasn't dark skin and if everyone was had the same skin color in this book then you know why why would they Mark themselves with black yeah why would they Mark themselves with black paint and if it's a if it's symbolic which we'll talk about later then why are they just not automatically black like why are they marking themselves I don't know like right yeah yeah why do they physically do it was there another slide on this from when we went through the slides yeah so this one's a little bit more do you want to read this one Nemo yes because then I guess I think here's another one where we follow the footnotes it says and the skins of Lites were dark because is Alma 36 again so and the Skins the Lites were dark according to a mark which set upon their fathers which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their Rebellion against their Brethren who consisted of Nephi Jacob and Joseph and Sam who were just and holy men uh and the am aites what what scripture is that again sorry it's just earlier in the chapter so it's three four five yeah yeah yeah so yeah and then again the reference the footnote just goes right back to seg5 um what is it 521 yeah because what they will try and say is in those verses before it talks about the Layon nightes having skins around their loins and then it says the skins of Lites were dark according to blah blah blah but again we've just shown it just the footnote takes you straight back to Second Nei it's talking about the Cur skin which is actual skin yeah right moving swiftly on okay so this is just another this this is the same one I've showed already I think where it's just the the seed again like I think this idea of seed or the genealogical aspect of all this just combats all of these because it's you can't like you can't pass on paint you can't pass on body paint or or coats or tattoos even like it's just silly so I just wanted to show that again yeah um so in the book of Mor the emites there were a group of knights yeah we've talked about this before where they kneights and the way to distinguish themselves is to set this Mark upon themselves because the the lamanites are already black and um I don't know if we need to go through this one so this this one the Lord the Lord sets hang on maybe we should just read this one yeah so this is Alma 33- 16 so it's the same chapter right right just later on yeah so now now we will return again to the amyes for they also had a mark set upon them yeah they set the mark upon themselves see even a mark of red upon their foreheads thus the word of the word of God is fulfilled for these are the words which which he said unto Nephi behold the lamanites have I cursed and I will set a mark on them and they and their seed may be separated from thee and thy seed from this time henceforth and forever except they repent of their wickedness and turn to me that I may have mercy upon them and again I will set a mark upon him that mingle his seed with thy Brethren that they may be cursed also and again I will set a mark upon him that fighteth against thee and thy seed and so it's just like he's talking about seed again he's talking about how he marks them and how the lay of curs is you know it's God marking them the am sites Mark themselves yeah right um and and so I think the point I've made about this uh when we were when we were going through these slides is again if you go to where it says the lamanites have I cursed where does the footnote take you to or take you straight back to Second Nephi but here for some reason in His Infinite Wisdom God's chosen not to immediately cause the amyes to have black skin but instead has allowed them to Mark themselves as separate using a red mark fine whatever that doesn't in any way affect the curse that these verses talk about when it comes to having been applied to lonit so the curse of the lamanites is still exactly as it's always been understood it's about skin the amyes were a slightly different case and that's okay you know we we're here trying to judge the the consistency of God's dealings with these people rather than what the curse itself actually means because when it says in these verses the amonites have I cursed it's it's very clear it will take you straight back to Second defi again that curse that we understand means skin so just because in this instance a mark is something else doesn't mean that all of a sudden the understanding of the the original cursing of the lonit is any different right and there's more if we want to keep going with this chapter um har do you want to read this one yeah um Alma 131 17-19 and again uh I say he that departed from thee shall no more be called thy seed and I will bless thee and Whom whomsoever Shall be Called thy seed henceforth and forever and these were the promises of the Lord unto nephite and to his seed now the amyes knew not that they were fulfilling the words of God when they began to Mark themselves in their foreheads nevertheless they had come out in open Rebellion against God therefore it was expedient that the curse should fall upon them now I would that ye should see that they brought upon themselves the curse and even so doth every man that is cursed bring upon himself his own condemnation um yeah so I think this is pretty clear right that um it's really making a distinction between the amyes and the Lites because the amyes brought the curse upon themselves unlike like the lemonides who God uh himself cursed so God cursed their genealogical lineage whereas the amoc sites have come in and brought upon themselves The Curse but because it's physical they're not getting it straight away perhaps right as then they're not get to changeing skin color but as they mix their seed it will darken right and then again uh the foot not like you were saying it just goes right back to 75521 this is all these reference back to the original cursing yep so yeah which we've done to death at this point right right okay so the next one is about tattoos so we'll watch her her video latter STS have a lot of theories about what the skin of Blackness could be in the Book of Mormon says it's probably not skin and I know you've never heard of this Theory before because it's brand new but if you want to learn about the other theories definitely go check out my other videos on this topic so Elma said that the Lord would set a mark upon him that fighteth against thee and thy seed and we can get a hint of what this word mark means by looking at the Hebrew behind Leviticus 19 when it says you shall not print any marks upon you the word translated here is Mark is the Hebrew Kaka which means incision imprint tattoo tattooing was known in the ancient east and in the ancient Americas among various indigenous tribes in both North and South America in meso America it was documented as early as possibly thex Maya all the way up through the Spanish Conquest going back to Leviticus tattooing yourself like this would have been a VI of the law of Moses so this kind of a mark would literally be a cursed thing upon the Lites a visible sign of their Rebellion against the Lord's covenants after lonite conversion they would discontinue this practice and so future Generations would lack the Mark just like it describes in third Nephi that their young men and their daughters became exceedingly fair if you want to learn about all of these other theories or understand why it's probably not actually skin you're going to want to read no why number 718 oh my gosh doesn't she misreads or misquotes this scripture because it's the scripture that we just read which is the one she cites is the is the one that not only is talking about the young men and the daughters is also talking about the parents right yeah yeah she's trying to say well they discontinu the practice of tattooing themselves so then the scripture is only talking about it yeah yeah yeah she says this scripture says that their children became fair and that means because they discontinu the practice of course their children would lack the tattoos but like the scripture also said the parents became Fair who would have had the tattoos is laser tattoo removal around in the Book of Mormon like this annoys me in so many ways because again she's missing out words linguistically she's a mess honestly she says the print marks upon yourselves that's what Leviticus says my first question is why does Leviticus matter to uh to lamanites in any way why are they under the law of Moses I don't I don't remember that part of the book of Mor particularly um but then she's talking about the Hebrew uh and saying and saying that oh it says you won't print any marks upon you and that that marks could mean imprints well yes it could mean imprints because the word print is also included in the sentence so very context specifically that word Mark there could very well mean tattoos but the word Mark in of itself doesn't just mean tattoos outside of any context it's very clear when you talk about printing marks upon yourselves the word print is very important there because it's the idea of imprinting a mark onto your skin of tattooing yourself it's verbs that make the word Mark have that specific meaning and without that verb Mark just means Mark doesn't mean tattoos yeah well and then her other video where she talks about paint and how like she said at baptism they became you know white or whatever or the the paint could have washed off that doesn't happen with tattoos they can get they can join the church they can baptized and it's it's still going to stay there unless you like you said if laser hair removal or laser hair remal laser tattoo removal was a ask what's the name Al carway fox or whatever her name is right the tattooed woman influencer did hers just disappear when she joined the church no like people I know ex soldiers who joined the church whove still got their tattoos from when they were in the military like tattoos don't just disappear and also if you look at the footnotes and the studies that they're referencing one of them I couldn't access cuz it's it's behind a pay wall but another one that they referenc these tattoos were done ceremoniously and they were done rarely and when they were done it was ceremoniously not with everybody and so like again like why like you're saying this entire group of people had tattoos when there's no evidence for that like it's it doesn't make any sense and sufficient tattoos to distinguish them right it's not just one or two it'll be this idea of like M tattoos that are all covering and it's like and who's doing that to Children who's doing that to to to Children here um and lest we forget the legendary book and mor reader shows that it clearly isn't tattoos it's just skin so well and then even today is and and come follow me now it still even shows as we've referenced before in the last video that it still shows um skin yeah right um well and what's most importantly for this uh tattoo uh Theory to work is you have to be like Jasmine and leave part of the U verses out right to work and being sneaky that way I still can't believe it that she left that part of the verse out about the parents and is like oh yeah this is why it works with the kids but she just completely neglects that's really deceitful I'm really glad you caught that herado because that's that's bad and the the again I'm just gonna keep coming back to it it's because she's not seeking truth she doesn't care what the truth is she just wants to create as many uh hairbrained explanations as is possible to convince a Believer who wants to keep believing uh that that there's something they could hang their hat on and that's why Julia when you say you're disturbed by 100,000 comments or likes or whatever or views um generally Believers are going to operate by confirmation bias and motivated reasoning in other words they're going to want to maintain their beliefs and so they're going to want to find any evidence or explanation that they can find to reaffirm the beliefs they want to have and that's why this this series is really only valuable or useful to people who are actually earnestly seeking truth and who care about evidence and facts and reason and logic um but there there there are enough listeners and viewers of the series who who clearly seem to Value those things because we're told this series is making a big difference so that's why it's a it's important what we do but it's also important to call out what Jasmine and Neil and others are doing they're not they're not honest truth Seekers they're intentionally deceiving people um you know probably as Earnest Believers but with an idea that by any means necessary that it's okay to deceive and manipulate if it keeps people believing yeah well and like as we'll show later there are Scholars that that accept this meaning skin color they accept that that that's the case and they don't have to redefine anything they just accept it and then they still believe like they don't make apologies for it and I appreciate that and also her sentence where she says you've never heard this Theory because it's brand new like we have been led the church has claimed to be led by prophets Sears and revelators who speak to God why are we coming out with new theories and also if you have a theory and you're making you have four theories that are very different from each other and they kind of contradict these texts like one can't fit if the other one fits like they yeah they all contradict each other too right like you're you don't have strong likes to stand on none of these arguments are strong at all like you're just throwing like you guys said throwing mud at the wall and seeing what sticks you belong to an organization that claims direct access to deity and that the leaders of that organization speak for God you then have other people in the organization who are throwing three four or five theories out about what scripture means they should be useless and no one should be taking them seriously and the only reason they get taken seriously is because there are questions that aren't being addressed by those people who claim to speak for God so that leaves a vacuum into which people like Jasmine can step often with the blessing of those individuals who are neglecting their role as one who speaks for God because they're not speaking to the actual issues that matter to people that leaves that vacuum for Jasmine to step in with that blessing and go oh well here's four or five theories pick the one that makes you feel the best about the situation let's not talk about it anymore shall we which which isn't what people need and it's not a long-term solution for the church it's not going to work forever yeah right also think about this um this issue is probably uh most or one of the most important issues uh for the church today than it ever was because the church it where the church is growing the most today is Africa and you have all these people in Africa reading the book of Mormon for the first time you would think that prophet seers and revelators should be trying to figure out how people should be interpreting this scripture especially when they are outright so you know so racist and and horrible sounding like if if this was really it's not mean it doesn't mean skin and it means something else shouldn't be prophets the ones concerned to come up with an answer directly from God uh to reinterpret these scriptures why are these Scholars and Jasmine doing this and then in in you know while they're doing it they're also leaving all this context out for to make their her their theories work well how is the church doing in Latin America har how is it how is it doing in Central South America it's not not doing great well and I think that's your answer because the church just will what they will do is they will just be very distinct about their racism they'll make very clear what racism is what they'll say oh hang on the racism towards black Africans that's the curse of cane we got rid of that 1978 that's cool black Africans you're all good oh but the book of skin of Blackness yeah no that's people over in the Americas that's that's that's them we're being racist to don't you guys worry it's those uh dark skined people that that are still you know it's still in Scripture that they're cursed right you guys curs a can n we've got rid of that and I think honestly I'm being a bit GL but I think that's what that's how they're viewing it they're like okay well the church is declining amongst the people that actually have a right to be offended by these verses I mean all people that dislike racism have a right to be offended by the verses but I think you know what I'm saying right the people that the racism would directly affect or is talking about the church is declining amongst that population yeah I think that's I agree with you and I think that's why the church is focusing elsewhere but also like I'll I'll just point out that that the church has been the most racist against a black Africans or Africans because they were the ones that were cursed they were the ones that were limited in their Temple attendance their ceiling their their abilities to receive these saving ordinances the church never never denied um Native Americans that those privileges but they did people of African descent those privileges they were cursed but they were main characters so they still get a pass right yeah yeah okay so going going back to the scriptures so nowhere in the text of the Book of Mormon does a reference tattoos and like the only thing that I could they could you could that in my opinion you could View and iner such meaning is from Alma 38 which we've already discussed where it reads that the emites knew not that they were fulfilling the words of God when they began to Mark themselves in their foreheads and I think she talked about that word Mark and that could mean tattooing but like but this is also this they're painting themselves unless they're tattooing themselves like well the Book of Mormon reader shows that they were painting themselves right um that makes that very clear visually and also again she missed out the word print as it was connected to the word Mark which that makes it very clear it could be a tattoo whereas here it didn't say they began to print themselves with marks Did it or anything of that nature right so like I don't I didn't have very many slides for this one because it's just so it doesn't make any sense to me yeah okay so then then her fourth one is is that it's symbolic so we'll watch this clip schols have discovered examples of symbolically describing people as black or white in the writings of ancient Egypt Mesopotamia Arabs Christians and even the Bible itself perhaps the most direct ancient near Eastern parallel is found in the succession Treaty of aser hatan this treaty was sent out to Assyrian vassals including Judah around the 7th Century BC to establish a new king Asher banipal as was customary in ancient artern treaties and Covenants curses were pronounced upon those who would violate its terms one of the curses of this treaty States May the gods make your skin and the skin of your women your sons and your daughters dark may they be as black as pitch and crude oil in the Bible Lamentations used similar imagery to describe the nazarites or nazarites were pure than snow they were whiter than milk but now their Vis is blacker than a coal later adding our skin was black like an oven because skin color naturally does not change this quickly it's pretty clear that these examples aren't referring to literal skin color or race in its Assyrian context skin black as pitch appears to be a motif for death and destruction and then it's reappropriate creation and Lamentations might not be referring to literal death but rather to be more like Dead Men Walking she's got like hey look at all this stuff that happened on the other side of the world they used to talk kind of quite poetically about black skin and white skin that makes this all okay when this book makes it very clear that it's a literal cursing because the difference there is you've got an Assyrian King saying may your skin be black the skin of your wies children Etc be black um basically asking for a curse to be put upon them that's not a scripture that says God cursed them with black skin that's not an environment in which a literal deity which if you believe in the power of an omnipotent and deity has the power to just change skin the way Jasmine goes oh skin just doesn't change she herself is therefore discounting the power of an omnipotent deity to make such changes happen which what happens then to her belief in Miracles because God is a god of Miracles that's the the Mormon belief so all of a sudden has God ceased to be a god of Miracles according to Jasmine because all of a sudden biologically skin can't change so you know it's just ridiculous also I it made me think of how Spencer Kimbell in October General Conference of 1960 how he held up the pictures and he was like oh the people on the that are in this Indi student placement program they're they're brighter they're whiter than they're than their family members on the reservation like she's likeing oh skin color doesn't change that quickly but like according to spenc Kimel it does so like anyway um yeah I think it's kind of interesting she says well that can't happen but then doesn't the Book of Mormon have all these like ridiculous stories uh Miracle stories anyway uh about people chopping hands and stuff like that like like about Ammon chopping off the arms of all the yeah Elma 17 yeah and Sam and I standing up on wall and the arrows don't hit him we want to talk about biological Miracles right biological miracles in the book of is how someone is decapitated without a drop of blood being spilled so that their clothes can then be worn without anyone going why are you covered in blood right Nephi is able just to take laan's clothes put them on pretend to be him um because those clothes aren't drenched in the blood of a man who's just been decapitated right and then like if it's symbolic then how did Joseph know where to send these early missionaries to the lamanites and then like again there's a bunch of stories in the Book of Mormon like I referenced the one where they they try to find this guy so that he can deliver wine to the enemies to the lamanites like they specifically pick this guy out if it's symbolic then why that story doesn't make any sense well with with their spiritual eyes he looked dodgy I think to be factious yeah it's just ridiculous like appealing to these ancient civilizations that have no real influence as far as I can tell on the amonites right exactly it's just like it seems to be the approach is we can't pin anything to North America anymore so let's just look at any part of the world we can find to find something that makes our Theory make sense and then we'll just co-opt it right that honestly I'm not trying to be hyperbolic there that seems to be the thing like any ancient writing we can find that mentions someone as having black skin cool we'll use that as a reason why in this other very specific context that now aligns with the Assyrian understanding of black skin oh goodness reformed Egyptian and Assyrian apparently very very similar after all now and again like if you accept one of these one of these four theories it hurts the other one so it's like they're all really weak I can't stress that enough at this but I think this is I think it's the whole symbolic thing is kind of like the last Bastion it's like The Last Retreat post for this if you can't ascribe it to tattoos paint animal skins Etc you have to step back and go well it's still wasn't physical skin because it was symbolic in some way or it was spiritual in some way and that's that's that kind of like final appeal to something beyond the tangible to go ah well it was something untangle that you can't disprove that that that it was right it was meaning it was Nuance it was this it was that that's the kind of final Retreat point I would I would say for a theory like this right okay so she also referenced she they're they're taking some of this their research from Ethan Sprout and so I have some of his paper here as well so in his 20 2015 paper which I've referenced before skins as garments in the Book of Mormon Ethan Sprout suggests that three passages in the Book of Mormon that describe people as white and fair lend themselves to understanding white and fair in a metaphoric or spiritual symbolic sense and then he gives the references in first Nephi 11 for example Mary is described as fair and white as she holds an infant Jesus while being directly compared to the white tree from lehi's dream which represents the love of God so the problem with Sprouts theory is that earlier this in the chapter the color whiteness is used in a very literal way so in 1 Nephi 118 it says and it came to pass that the spirit said unto me look and I looked and beheld a tree and it was like unto the tree which my father had seen and the beauty thereof was Far Beyond y exceeding of all Beauty and whiteness and the whiteness thereof did exceed the whiteness of the driven snow and here the picture here is from The Book of Mormon videos and the tree is literally white and then if you keep going in verse 11 of chap of chapter 11 verse 13 and it came to pass that I looked and I beheld the great city of Jerusalem and also other cities and I beheld the city of Nazareth and in the city of Nazareth I beheld a virgin and she was exceeding fair and white why would you put those two words together if it was um if it was symbolic what is fair is fair symbolic right well and then also elsewhere it says in the throughout the book Mormon it says white and pure it just uses those so like why if it's all pure why are you using white at all like yeah anyway but like here he's Nephi is saying that this tree is very literally white and that even the church understands that and that's how they why they've made this video like this the tree the tree is white and then they're saying the Virgin is also white so like just a few verses later you're saying it's symbolic now whereas before it was literal like it doesn't make sense and then if we keep going so another problem with Sprout's theory is that Joseph Smith seemed to teach that Mary the mother of Jesus was literally a white woman and Alexander neb Bar's account of Joseph Smith's first Vision he says that Joseph described Jesus as having a light complexion and blue eyes so Joseph understands that Jesus is a white man and then also if you look if you look at the text of the Book of Mormon itself and throughout all of 30 Nephi but third Nephi 19:30 is one I'm using as as an example it says and when Jesus had spoken these words he came again unto his disciples and behold they did pray steadfastly without ceasing unto him and he did smile upon them again and behold they were white even as even as Jesus sorry I was gonna say Simon Dewey clearly understands Jesus to be white as well as does Dell Parsons as does car block that the church likes to steal a lot of artwork from like church artwork it's very clear that Jesus was white and then in their videos like the Testaments which is which was shown almost in every Visitor Center that they can show it like Jesus is very white blonde hair blue eyes like yeah Swedish tennis player Jesus is like Mormon Doctrine like that's yeah right yeah very white guy it's it's not symbolic like yeah okay so she gives this last little clip and I wanted to share because I think interesting dark is frequently paired with terms such as filthy and loathsome that are clearly intended to describe the spiritual state of the Layon nightes not their lack of hygiene or physical attractiveness why based on what justification yeah yeah oh goodness doesn't it say the scriptures say that they be were that they were turned black because so they wouldn't be enticing to my people yeah yeah so we keep referencing back to this the where the original curse was given in secondi 521 through 23 like it's very specific that they would not be enticing that the curse was given that they would not be enticing to the people and so the Lord caused right so that and I think it even says later so so that the uh the seed of him wouldn't mix because if they mix then the the um the offspring would be Cur will be cursed exactly yes so like it doesn't to see it as symbolic doesn't make any sense oh gosh but also like as we've said you know she talked about is it's nothing to do with their physical attractiveness like in throughout the Scriptures it talks about this is 1 Nephi 12:23 where it says that they they dwindled on unbelief they became dark and a loathsome and filthy people full of idleness and all manner of Abominations like like I guess you can see and like here references like she's like it's it's not lack of hygiene then in Jacob 38 talks about how the it says oh my brethren I fear that unless you repent of your sins that their skins will be whiter than yours when you shall be brought with them before the Throne of God wherefore a commandment I give unto you which is the which is the word of God that you revile no more against them because of the darkness of their skins neither shall you revile against them because of their filthiness but you shall remember your own filthiness and remember that their fil filthiness came because of their fathers see this is where I think it could get a little bit complicated and I'm putting like my devil's advocate hat on for a moment because when he says you shall remember your own filthiness okay what like the Nephites that are being talked to in this verse are they dark skinned too have they had the curse too like or are they all just lacking hygiene or is this could this be spiritual could this be you know um don't reval against them because of their sins but remember your own sins too could it be that again with with that they shall not be enticing um there's that scripture in mosiah about yielding un the enticings of the spirit enticings could be a spiritual enticing ing as opposed to physical now that said and this is really important if that is the case and Jasmine is right about that then all the prophets since Joseph Smith misunderstood this all of them did in order for her to be right about this none of them have corrected that none of them have made this clear because they all believed it was physical they all believed that they were physically filthy that there was a lack of hygiene there was idleness laziness that they were not desirable as mates to the white Knights right they all believe that so you you also have to get rid of all the uh scriptures are talk about seed exactly right so in order for this to work they all had to be wrong they all had to misunderstand it had to not somehow be about genealogy and all the references to mixing their seed Etc yeah right it had to not be about any of that in order for Jasmine to be right and then that raises the question who should we be following Jasmine or the prophets right yeah right exactly yeah and so one 10% also um so not every scholar is trying to redefine what these words mean and Grant Hardy is an example so in the Oxford annotated Book of Mormon latterday Saint scholar and textual critic Grant Hardy commented on the lonite curse in the footnote under second 5521 he writes some LDS readers have interpreted descriptions of the lamanites being dark as cultural or symbolic rather than than biological but this appears to contradict the plain meaning of the text Bravo the man is talking sense I like that right like we don't you can and he's a Believer he he helped publish this book like you can you can still maintain belief and accept that the Book of Mormon is racist it just means you have to you know actually deal with the racism within the Book of Mormon rather than try and explain it away as something that didn't really happen because that's the only difference here is that if you just accept it you then have to just deal with it and apologize and or do whatever or or in some way come to terms with it but I don't think the church is willing to do that so instead they allow people like Jasmine to try and excuse it away and pretend like it didn't happen yeah right yeah um Julia I added a slide so if you exit the the the slides and then put it back on there's a video by the church that I thought would that I I think we should play a part of um section I think I think we're all very excited for herard surprise slide okay wait hang on can that be a new segment John moving on is herard surprise slide where he just adds a slide yeah that should be M episode that should be a feature I think so I think so I can figure this out so um so so this video is one that the church um published on on their own YouTube channel okay um and I it's talking about the of Blackness in the book of so this is as official as it gets how dare you use their own words herado sources okay so should we just play it yeah let's look at what the church has to tell us uh through this convert about what skin of Blackness how to how to deal with skin of Blackness in the Book of Mormon okay so we're gonna play it yeah and you know two or three weeks later I get a text that says okay Clark questions about the Book of Mormon I said great you're doing what you said you're going to do you're reading good job and so we have this text string going along on Callie's questions about the Book of Mormon and for the first you know two to three weeks it is like rough like every time the phone buzzes with a question from Cali I'm like oh boy and I'll show my wife and C's like good luck with that one I started reading it and there's a lot of scripture or text in there that come off very racist so that was a lot of our arguments I have a whole like my whole back of my book is just as many times as it's like it refers to you know the curse of of Blackness and their skin became White and so I was arguing with him I'm like how can there be this religion and it's like faith in God but yet there's so much text in it that just feels like you're alienating a whole group of people like this is for me as a black person you're telling me you know that I'm cursed I think about 3 weeks into it I'm like you know what Callie this isn't going to work I thought this was a bad idea just give it back to me thanks for trying this is this is clearly not going to work and she just lashed and said nope I said I'm going to read it so I'm going to keep plowing ahead and that night I read um to Nephi [Music] 2633 for none of these iniquities come of the Lord for he doeth that which is good among the children of men and he doeth nothing save it be plain onto the children of men and he inviteth them all to come onto him and partake of his goodness and he denieth none that come onto him black and white Bond and free male and female and he rememberest the Heathen and all are like un to God both Jew and Gentile and so it was that moment right there was it it was like AA moment so here i' been arguing you know racism and you know we're talking about inequities and all that I did and it's like God loves everybody no matter who you are no matter what you are no matter what you've done God loves everybody based on the questions she'd be asking me the conversations we were having I knew that second m527 would be good for her and I'm on my way to pick up some supplies for a party and I start reading it but I start to cry and I was like you know so okay can't I can't read it right now let me let me finish doing what I'm doing right I mean oh man there's so much we could say I have a point real quick that like why does the church get to eat its cake and have it when they say oh black doesn't mean black and white doesn't mean white but then when that scripture helps her and it's like God denies none black and white Bond ofree no no no no no God denies none that wear black clothes or white clothes that's what that scripture says right there God denies none who are tattooed God denies none who paint themselves black or white God like all of a sudden when that helps the church's case to say God doesn't discriminate black all of a sudden very clearly just means black people and white all means white people even though just two chapters before black apparently doesn't mean black at all it just means something else or it's a spiritual thing and white doesn't really mean white it just means pure and delightsome and fair I'm REM take away from that video also isn't it disingenuous for this uh for this member who's trying to convert her to not tell her about the history of a 100 plus years when black people were actually um you know not allowed out in the temple or sealed with their families forever or um or get the priesthood or bless their families um how about all that yeah because what she's reading is referencing a different racism again right the two main streams of racism within the church so she's reading something about uh people of the Americas that doesn't even I I assume she's like black of African descent I I'm imagining I think that's the way she seems to be describing it I could be wrong but in that case yeah she wants to actually be more concerned about the pre-1978 church that just wouldn't let black people go to heaven with their families forever right but also you know it's not just past racism you you talk to Nate bird or summer rain or uh you know any of the black menaces or the people we've had on Mormon stories podcast black students at BYU feel awful they they have terrible experiences on average that makes them want to leave the church so I mean the church is it's it's it's stabbing itself it's it's uh shooting itself in the foot by trying to create these marketing messages that the church is no longer racist because you just have to be black in the church to know that this place doesn't feel good for black people in general and it's not going to work um and it's gon to lead some people to be committed to the church and then to have really awful experiences afterwards but you know that's that's what's tricky is that the people come to the church when they really need it they come to the church when they're alone when their life is in shambles when they have no community and they feel desperate and they're down and out and that's the tricky rub here is that even Darren or or Nate or Sebastian or Rachel or summer rain will admit that the church helped them before it hurt them or it helped their families before it hurt them and and so the church is going to continue to do and say and and be racist things um and people like us are going to be there to speak the truth to people of color and to help try support them the best we can when their Mormon worldview falls apart you know what I mean yeah yeah because I I'm willing to bet that she did not know about the priesthood band when when she got yeah nor does it seem like she was told yeah like you said by the way if anybody knows this woman uh please please bu for her second class Saints black Mormons in the struggle for equality let her read that book and by the way read that book just because God contradicts himself in the Book of Mormon that doesn't make the Book of Mormon true just because God super racist in the Book of Mormon and then almost in a in a bipolar schizophrenic way says that God denies no one black or white Bond or free um that doesn't make the Book of Mormon true it just makes the Book of Mormon schizophrenic and contradictory well see like two two chapters later he goes like oh yeah I don't deny anyone black or white he's like actually I'm pretty sure two chapters ago you denied a very specific group of black people well and and that's and remember this is uh second Nephi 20 something like you still have all the Jacob racist scriptures you have the alma racist scriptures people turning white after they get baptized they Nephi racist scriptures um she has a long way to go and so this single uh single scripture that says that black people are not uh are not denied to come to God doesn't have anything to do with the fact that the Book of Mormon is talking about black people being cursed and let's be clear like women are denied all sorts of priesthood and authority and Power in the church today so what they're trying to do they're trying to they're trying to um Nuance the difference between salvation and sort of bigotry and it's basically saying the church and Jesus offers salvation to all it's just they don't offer equal rights and Privileges and power and access to all and once you're dead techically that's true techically it's true that a black person in Mormonism can can achieve exaltation but it's not true church isn't bigoted the church is super bigoted to lgbtq people to people of color to women to all sorts of people so I think I think there is I I do think we have to acknowledge that that that verse in the Book of Mormon is talking about salvation and um and not equality and it's technically true in that God doesn't certainly again black and white as it refers to the people that have been cursed with blackness in the Book of Mormon right as it as it refers to nephite and lonite in the Book of Mormon God doesn't deny any that come unto him because what he does he turns them white so he doesn't deny any black person in the Book of Mormon who comes unto him he just turns them white as we'll see later on in the book and that's what she needs to bear in mind is that actually what that book's saying is okay black people can come unto God but they're then going to get turned white and that was the belief and understanding of prophets right up until Spencer W Kimbell is that as members of that dark skinned group would come unto God they would be turned white right I would argue that it's even after so like so like in second class Saints in his book he references a lot of times where black people were told that they would turn white either in this life or in heaven and one of the stories was Jane Manning James where she was told in her patriarchal blessing that she would become white and also you could say like she was saved in the Celestial Kingdom but she was sealed as an Eternal servant to Joseph Smith the celestial slave yes so like she's being saved so she's not being denied salvation but she's doing it at a very low unequal level like you were saying John so like yeah yeah yeah but I mean if this woman If This Woman's not a paid actress which she likely is if she's but if she's not a paid actress and that's really her story she won't last long in the church unless she's making a lot of money as a black spokesperson to try and deceive the world that the church isn't racist that's the only way she survives this church likely I do appreciate the I appreciate the candid nature of the guy being like yeah maybe this won't work let's just let's just give up on this right like fair play to the guy I would feel the same oh yeah yeah that's I think that's the most authentic thing I've ever seen in a church video to H also isn't it interesting that on her scriptures he has all those references I mean the story doesn't really make sense because she says I have all these references on the back that mention the black the skin of Blackness and then I I kept reading and then I found this amazing scripture but then most of the scriptures about skin of Blackness are after second Nephi um 20 26 so I don't know the story doesn't doesn't make a lot of sense in my mind but I don't right as I was listening to that video I was also reminded of the episode we did John with about Tim Ballard's um link on hypothesis where briam young had slaves in his home or people who were enslaved he had Native American slaves and he had people of African descent who were slaves in his home and so like and he put law you know he's the governor or the the leader of Utah and he put laws that would that allowed the slavery and like so then you're saying and that carried on for years and then and then link or Tim Ballard is saying that oh because Lincoln got the Book of Mormon he was so inspired and then and then he um you know abolished slavery but like the The Book of Mormon and the Bible used to justify slavery all those years so like it doesn't make sense that that the story just doesn't make sense at all it's almost like you can make the scriptures say whatever you want to support your current worldview almost yeah not quite but almost I I really want to play that video for for the black medicis and for summer rain and get that reaction you could do a p discussion just on that video find out that woman's actual name and try to invite her on Mormon stories can y can y'all write that down Julia let's find out if anybody listening and viewing can let us know who that woman is and how to contactor I would love to interview her on Mormon stories yeah the video has half a million views on YouTube what do you know when that was published was it this year three three years ago March 11th of 202 that's long enough for a faith crisis I reckon you can find her probably go she's probably out of the church I mean so many of those people that start out as as spokespeople for the church wash out I mean it's it's almost cliche at this point yeah yeah yeah right so who we listening to Julia who should we listen to Jasmine raple and our husband right the last slide that I have is a so you know all this time we've been listening to people in the church who are called as prophet seers and revelators that they have received this from God they've not changed it they've not felt the need and even in the our manuals today it's still dark skin rather than being tattoos or paint or symbolism or uh what was our garments so like are we are we to listen to these apologists paid by the church or are we listening to the men still paid by the church but like prophets and revelators contradict them right paid to contradict them yeah sorry John go on no because the because the church leaders are Behind These apologists that's the thing it's not either or the Mormon church is paying and funding these apologists to muddy the waters to continue the deception of the membership and it's been doing it this is old an old play in the Mormon Church Playbook is to Foster to intentionally Foster ambiguity to allow continued belief um and so it's not either or it's literally one funding the other on purpose go ahead Julia oh no yeah just so it's like yes think against on both yeah say the answer is and this is just my answer y'all can have your own answer the answer is ask yourself ask yourself what does the Book of Mormon say learn this is the this is The Great quest of humanity not just of Mormonism or exm Mormonism it's learning to trust your own thinking and your own feelings and your own heart and just ask yourself read the book of Mormon is the Book of Mormon meaning skin of Blackness metaphorically or is it meaning it literally read second class Saints read the history of the church as it it's treated black people and and Native Americans and ask yourself whe whether it makes sense that God would would author The Book of Mormon and God would call these prophetes and revelators for almost 200 years to teach that skin meant skin black meant black curse means curse and then deny all of them uh Privileges and access or teach that their skin will get lighter once they're righteous in the case of of Native Americans that God would do all that as the man who claims to be not the author of confusion whether that is is what happened or whether um The Book of Mormon is just simply racist and disgustingly racist and the Mormon church leaders have been disgustingly racist for a couple hundred years ask yourself and and and um follow follow what your own heart and mind tell you don't trust Neil and Jasmine raple or however you pronounce their name um or any of the other apologist that the church is literally are literally paying to deceive you but John God is not the author of confusion the church is because like you said they're holding one position officially as leaders of the church and then they're paying other people to hold a contradictory position so that can people can just pick which one they want yeah and go yeah right I'll take the one that makes me feel best so they're bigoted and racist members still get to say all right yeah no my church justifies my bigotry and my racism and then people who are like I don't like bigotry and racism oh well we've got an offering for you too it's from this lovely couple who we pay to provide excuses for our Behavior yeah oh man and and then and then the other thing real quick though is we have to pay attention to Jeffrey R Holland's latest article in the Leah honer about garments where he was saying that the spirit will not reveal to you that you ought to do any less than what you've been told to do in the temple and what we've told you as uh members of the first presidency presidency to do so people aren't able to go for their own Revelation about this issue they can't actually pray about it themselves because Jeffrey Holland's just said said no no the spirit won't ever incite you to disagree with us it won't incite you to to say that we were wrong so then we have to look at the official position of these leaders and go well then the spirit says I should follow what they've told me and they've told me that it means skin so the so according to jeffre Holland you should ignore the people that they've paid to give you that other option because the spirit can't confirm their message to you because it goes contrary to what the prophets have taught right good point all sorts of issues yeah the the only way I think to move forward is to accept that the Book of Mormon is racist to not to not try to play games and make it some mean something else the book Mormon is racist it has been racist and to but to accept that and then you have to accept that Jose Smith added things in or that he understood it to be racism and he wasn't really talking to God that the leaders the the leaders after him weren't really talking to God or weren't understanding that this wasn't skin like you have to accept that and then move forward and heal from that like if this is the Church of Jesus Christ then that's what would happen he wouldn't try to make apologies for these things yeah I what is it I the Lord who will forgive who I forgive but I excuse not myself is that the scripture it's like Jesus should just be a to rock and own this he's like yeah I cursed him andet prophets Sears and revelators don't hide behind paid Millennial apologists they speak the truth they don't they don't hide behind paid apologists they shouldn't do they shouldn't I I don't think they do yeah so I I I mean that draw your own conclusions but real Prophet Sears and revelators wouldn't hide behind Millennial paid apologist internet influencers yeah yeah they wouldn't need to they were special Witnesses of of God the Eternal Father and his son Jesus Christ yeah they have backing of Almighty deity sorry Julia well there's there special Witnesses of the name of Christ as Oaks has clarified that's been but then as Anderson or cook said I know his voice and I've seen his face so he said that yeah they're still pedling that that's still out there oh my goodness well Julia and I know Julie you worked with Fardo and Nemo on on getting this all together so I I think this has been really important and you know weirdly Jesus said those with ears let them hear those with eyes let them see not everyone's going to care about or go for the truth of what y'all have put together but I'm very confident that there will be people out there who find this and who find the evidence and the logic and the reasoning you've put together is compelling and it's going to help them see the truth I sure hope so yeah so thanks three of you for for playing a role in this if they can get past my sassiness I feel like I've been a little bit I've been on one today yeah it's the waxi chocolate yeah that's what it is it's the Sugar Rush sh all right anything else Julia no I think that's it all right thanks Julia thanks Shard thanks Nemo this has been great are are we gonna do more LDS discussions or is this series dead oh no yeah we're absolutely doing more okay I want to respond next to if it's okay to uh uh Richard Bushman oh yeah that's next we're gonna have Sandra Tanner on translation on to Rich Richard Bushman about attacks yeah am I gonna get to share the screen with Sandra Tanner I don't know we'll see timing oh you've never been you've never been on screen with her before never I'm sure I've met her and she's lovely but I would I would love to to be on a panel with her don't be hurt Nemo she asked for herard by name she said available he's really I can't compete with that your game Nemo what you trying to P I can't compete with her it's pretty hard to compete with herard right all right all right so we'll see you all again soon not just on Mormon stories but also on another episode of LDS discussions thanks everybody take care and and Neil and Jasmine rapidly do better all right take care everybody