Church Backtracks on Deceptive Change to Book of Mormon Introduction

hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon stories podcast LDS discussions Edition LDS discussions is back after a long Hiatus thanks to the epic 20p part series with Matt Harris on his amazing book um uh oh my gosh my brain just thank you Julie second class Saints uh black Mormons in the struggle for racial equality we took it LDS discussions Hiatus because that series was so epic if you haven't checked it out please do um anyway that series is done and now we're back with the amazing LDS discussion Series where we uh dig into morm matur truth claims from a neutral as a neutral and as objective as a um position as we can and help you decide for yourself uh what is true and not true about more mature truth claims today we have an exciting new uh news story that just broke over the weekend um it's changed it's like it's like making history and then rewriting history as we make new history right now I think the current title is Mormon church rewrites scriptures introductions or at least that's how it started and now what do it evolved to guys what's the new headline what's the latest the church backpedals or something like that church turns introduction into explanatory note in app without telling anybody and makes news outlets pull articles for fun that would that's what I'd call it oh my gosh I'm so glad we're here with Nemo with herard and with Julia and and just let's jump right to the story as it was a few days ago and uh we're gonna play Julia's amazing video from analyzing Mormonism her Tik Tok because Julia this video's got how many views almost 50,000 and it was on the it was published on December 5th yeah so this will just give you guys a sense for what's uh what the story was about as if you if you've been following along in Mormonism you'll know that the church recently updated the introduction to the Book of Mormon you'll find the new introduction in the Book of Mormon app produced by the church after reading it I have a lot of questions about what is and isn't mentioned Angel Moroni is mentioned but not by name Joseph Smith is not mentioned Nephites and Lites are also not mentioned and in general there is no mention of Native Americans the gold plates are not mentioned and any form of translation is not mentioned the Bible is also not mentioned and neither are the three inate Witnesses Jerusalem the Tower of Babel the jaredites none of these are mentioned and nowhere does it say that the Book of Mormon is the most correct of any book on Earth overall the promises contained for those who feel that the Book of Mormon is true are far less impressive than the old ones the new one says simply that God will reveal the truth of the Book of Mormon in his own way and in his own time and it says simply may you find God on these Pages as far as what is mentioned Jesus is mentioned four times God has mentioned seven times heavenly father is mentioned four times and the words you and your appeared 21 times when it did not appear at all in the old introduction so to those who are active members of the Church of Jesus Christ lday Saints and even to those who aren't What's Happening Here is the church trying to make the Book of Mormon more palatable for those who aren't members and is this new introduction really honest and transparent yeah so that's a that's a great um that's a great introduction Jia we'll be covering this more I put together a slide of like three questions that kind of echoed Julia's is the Mormon church trying to again rewrite history regarding the book of Mormon's Origins and we're going to be uh kind of covering the history around that um in today's episode providing context a second question is is the Mormon church trying to deceive members Andor investigators by hiding information at least you know early on um as someone's investigating the church investigating the Book of Mormon are they trying to deceive members and investigators by hiding information about Book of Mormon Origins and finally is the Mormon church this is the fun one is the Mormon church is Mormon church decisionmaking heavily influenced by ex Mormon YouTubers and podcasters uh so those are some of the questions we've got a live audience today we're live streaming uh of course we have Nemo uh from Nemo the Mormon YouTube channel here hey Nemo hey what is that what are youger is that your like is that your spirit animal basically it's our Sacrament it's my Sacrament yeah the body of Christ in a lovely short bread and jam biscuit we have herard hey herard thanks for joining us and all Julia from Mormon stories and also from analizing Mormonism y all right we're back in the saddle we wish Mike were with us Mike uh isn't with us but we're carrying on in the spirit of Mike dude Nemo you should have next to like Dan the taper taper Dan the taper you should have something that represents Mike just kind of that pays homage like like a bag of Cheetos or Doritos or yes like Doritos you should have a back of Doritos we'll work it out yeah okay just to pay homage to Mike anyway Mike is right now in retirement but we love Mike LDS discussions for those who don't know the LDS discussions series is a series inspired by Mike go to ldsd discussions. it's a website where Mike as so a convert to the church in a mixed Faith marriage discovered difficult things about the church that he was never told did this amazing website where he broke down Mormon church truth claims um and then we did a 55 episode series with Mike uh meticulously exploring Mormon church truth claims and that's what the LDS discussion series is you can consume it individually and separately as a Spotify podcast called LDS discussion as an apple podcast uh podcast or as a playlist on Mormon stories podcast it's best consumed sequentially um but I would say it's one of the most important things Mormon stories podcast has ever done is the LDS discussion series like literally last night uh I was at a party and a guy was like weeping with tears in his eyes thanking me Thanking us thanking everyone for what the LDS discussion series did for him in his life so it's actually a very meaningful series check it out it's best consumed in sequence and now we've got episode what were you say Julia is this 55 or 59 599 up to 59 okay so uh so that's what we're doing today thanks for the intro and I'll just also I want to give a shout out because this story in particular as far as we know was broken at least first by our own Bishop Nathan hinley um you know we've interviewed Nathan on Mormon stories podcast he was a bishop up until recently and um he broke the story on the Mormon stories podcast Facebook group you know about five days ago where he basically says the Book of Mormon introduction has been changed again so he published that um post on the Mormon stories podcast group I think that's where Julia saw for sure are uh our bestie Rebecca biblioteca followed that up with uh with some comparisons of the new 2024 Book of Mormon introduction comparing it to the 1981 version so as always we love to give credit where credits du shout out to Nathan hinley shout out to re Rebecca biblioteca and it was from there that Julia got the inspiration to do her video which we've already showed you any other things we want to say by means of introduction before we we kind of uh take people back to the history you first okay right I was just going to say that on the same day on the 5th of December oh that's herado on the same day on the 5th of December was when I scrapped the video that I had planned that I'd sat working on all week and went ah well this is a story so then um started scrambling to change my Sunday video so the video went out on Sunday that everyone saw was done in a time frame of a few days yeah everyone was rushing to cover this story um so we was standing on the shoulders of Julia and others and Nathan and Rebecca and Nathan and Rebecca yeah and also part of the story is that the that the church apparently has changed possibly backtracked all of this stuff we're talking about in you know in between the time we scheduled this episode like on Saturday morning and today now it's Monday morning December 9th it looks like the church might be backtracking in in possibly in response to all this activity so we're here to break all this down herard is there anything you or Julia want to say before we jump into the history herard um I I don't have anything right now okay Julia anything else you want to say I think we're gonna cover it all so okay well let's just Dive Right In then let's go all the way back to 1981 1981 who wants to who wants to to to start in 1981 who wants to give us the history um I I'll do this one so like Nemo so I always thought the introduction was written by Bruce armoni but I don't think that's the case he was certainly on the committee so in the nign in an IGN article published in 1981 it says according to the according it says on the introduction the new this old introduction now came from the scriptures publication Committee of the Quorum of the 12 which included Elder Thomas S Monson who was the chairman Elder Boyd K Packer and Elder Bruce araki with brother W James Mortimer serving as executive secretary so it was it wasn't just Bruce armaki it was a conglomeration it was a group of men um and then I I will say that in second class Saints we talk about how Bruce armoni uh was heavily part of this and like trying like you could see his racism in in the text itself and in the headings and things like that and they've since moved a lot of those So like um that's just background but yeah so it was a committee of people that wrote this in 1981 and and my understanding is that you know it for those of us who are old enough to remember the 60s and the 70s the church had different versions of its scriptures and if I'm remembering right 81 was around the time where the church came out with the triple combination where they where they did like a whole years or Decades of like let's let's really do the scriptures right let's get good introductions good um chapter headings let's get them all together in like a triple or a quad and I remember as a boy as a Mormon boy around 8182 getting this new set of scriptures that the church had been working on for a long time which was going to represent like the best scriptures that the Mormon church ever put out for its members is that does that sound right if you go if you go back to article yeah we we'll walk you through all that yeah if you go back if you go back to the slide it says the title of that article is the church publishes a new triple combination so so yeah John you're right on the money with that one okay so that's just I'm just going by memory here that's great this is what the book of moment look like for those listening I've got up a 1970s edition of the book Mormon with a l Mar own eye on the front um and it didn't used to have an roduction it had the origin of the Book of Mormon uh and an explanatory kind of thing there that then went on to the testimony of the three Witnesses and the eight Witnesses and maybe Julie can find it but there was also like a a version of The Book of Mormon that was like sky blue and it had clouds yeah I have that one there was another version that was like gold with like fake h on the cover right we should Julia literally we should we should put together a little slide showing the way the Book of Mormon has been represented on it over time for sure because it's been um you know evolved over time okay so where do we go next Julia okay so the so the next slide is the old introduction okay and is that and should we go over that to compare the new one well this was the 1981 introduction of the Book of Mormon yes yeah let's read whatever we think is relevant this one that we're looking at the moment just for clarity is the 2006 update yeah I guess that's that's a good thing to point out because changes were made we will talk about that okay so the old the old old introduction like which one we have the entire old old might be with the changes is that this one that's the beginning of the old old one and that's got that's the original so then if you read after that from the other one it'll be no different okay yeah there's just two changes made what should we read next and let's read it slow enough so that people can get the CH get the is this where we go next Julie yeah uh uh learned this by heart um and recited on your missions because I I did not have to recite it no did you have did you have to herado yeah yeah dang do do you want to read it the eyes closed herado Go I mean I learned it in Spanish I Ser oh right right okay so should we read this is this the first thing to read yeah I'll read this because this is reflecting of the 1981 yeah okay this is the brand new introduction from 1981 as it was then The Book of Mormon is a volume of Holy Scripture comparable to the Bible it is a record of God's dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains as does the Bible the fullness of the Everlasting gospel the book was written by many ancient prophets by the spirit of Prophecy and Revelation their words written on gold plates were quoted and Abridged by a prophet historian named Mormon the record gives an account of two great civilizations one came from Jerusalem in 600 BC and afterwards separated into two Nations known as the Nephites and the lamanites the other came much earlier when the Lord confounded the tongues at the Tower of Babel this group is known as the jaredites after thousands of years all were destroyed except the lamanites and they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians okay so obviously the most important part is the part that ends up getting changed because those last few words it's it's basically affirmatively asserting they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians meaning Nephi and Lehi and Layman and lemel are the ancestors of all the American Indians right that's what the 1981 Book of Mormon was asserting is that the big is that the important part about this introduction well also the first paragraph Was Chang as well the Bible was removed yeah so this is this fly and clearly for our listeners so someone explain that well we have a slide on it too so so as does the Bible was taken out okay do we want to jump to that slide because this isn't the full introduction this is just the first couple paragraphs do we want to read the whole old one or you pick you go um I don't I don't know because it's like still there I don't know if it's worth reading all of it let's go through the changes I'd say let's do it just do it okay so do you want to pick up where on slide seven where it shows them all um do you want to pick them up pick up where herard left off Nemo yeah that's good so essentially what we're saying is in 20 4 they got rid of the phrase as does the Bible from the uh opening of the introduction um basically that was getting rid of the idea that the Bible contains the fullness of the Everlasting gospel they were like actually no it doesn't and then in 2006 and this is the change most people think of um after thousands of years all were destroyed except the lamanites and they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians and that was changed to uh they were among the ancestors of the American Indians and I'll let herard and John talk about the significance of that change yeah I did want to comment on the first change because I remember on my mission um being always a little bit confused about uh The Book of Mormon having the fullness of the Everlasting gospel and literally not containing anything that we were teaching as missionaries not containing but you're saying the Book of Mormon though not the Bible yeah sorry the book so neither of them contain the fullness of the goel so I mean actually I when I was on my mission I loved the Bible I loved the New Testament and it was was really interesting to me that we were using the New Testament to talk about you know the three degrees of heaven we were using the New Testament to talk about baptisms for the death and it's like well doesn't the Bible have all these things that the Book of Mormon doesn't have and why are we saying that the Book of Mormon is the one that has the fullness of the Everlasting gospel we're having to use the Bible to prove that are doctrines are biblical that's a really good point but but then we can't use the Book of Mormon because it's not there that that's just something you wanted to point out so the change isn't even accurate um because it says and it contains the fullness of the Gospel so it doesn't really though and the response then was like well it's because the Everlasting gospel is Faith um repentance BM and and receiving the Holy Ghost and that's in the Book of Mormon but right well it's in the Bible too I don't like I don't know yeah right four things yeah I don't yeah and so um and then the part that I actually lived y'all how where were y'all in 2002 herard how old were you in 2002 um seven Julia how old were you in 2002 I was 12 Nemo I was five okay okay I was much older anyway so how old John how old I've told you all us tell us you have to say old oh I was born in 69 so someone do the math 31 like 3 like that yeah okay so i' I've you know people know that I lost my faith around 20012 2002 right I say that a million times I say that almost every episode so why so what happened was I was you know I was called as a seminary teacher in 2001 and so I started studying church history in depth and during this time history is getting made and one of the things that I very much remember is this guy named Thomas Murphy so here's article that I pulled up from uh this says December of 2002 this was after I was reading Fon Brody this was after I was uh starting to read books on church history and it basically says Anthropologist Thomas Murphy set out to test a key principle of the Mormon faith with the latest technology he wondered would DNA analysis show as taught by The Book of Mormon that many American Indians are descended from ancient Israelites his finding negative the result excommunication in other words this you know DNA DNA research starts emerging DNA technology start emerging and so this this guy who's also in Washington so I'm in Seattle Thomas Murphy's also in Washington we've interviewed him on Mormon stories basically he just like let's apply DNA analysis to figure out whether Native Americans in fact descend uh from Layman and lemal from Israel and he finds out no so what does the church do they threaten him with excommunication but then he calls the media so they call off the excommunication um that's followed up by a book by um someone else who we've had on Mormon stories his name is Dr Simon sutherton he comes out with a book in 2004 from signature books called losing a lost tribe where Bishop Simon sutherton um notifies the world that uh uh oh uh oh uh you know Native Americans are in fact not descendants of of Israelis and so the Book of Mormon has a problem and that is what led to and here's the article in the Deseret News debate renewed uh with the change in the Book of Mormon introduction that's probably not the right uh first um you know first discussion of it we probably don't have our timeline quite perfect but the point is these changes uh to the Book of Mormon introduction that we've now called out they're not just coincidental they're literally in response to the work of Thomas Murphy and to the work of Simon sutherton and the church is like uh oh we have a problem we need to hurry and change the introduction to the Book of Mormon well and that goes go ahead and that and that goes to your question about is the Mormon Church decision- making heavily influenced by a Mor podcasters or just ax Mormons in general Scholars or Scholars your Scholars yeah that's yeah I think I think the position of the church the church's default position is we didn't know particularly right from the time of Joseph Smith we didn't know who the mound builders were we didn't know who the Native Americans really were and as we learn more I'm sure it will back up our view of what the world is and what we're discovering particularly as later science comes along is that's not true at all but even with the discovery of the Rosetta Stone which was contemporary to Joseph Smith's lifetime and with that making its way to America eventually with the problems that causes for the book of Abraham we see time and time again that as people discover more about the world and as we learn more about the world we live in it becomes a bigger problem for the Book of Mormon it doesn't actually affirm it but the position of church apologist is very often will wait for the archaeology to prove the book but the problem is they have to change where that Archaeology is then going to have to appear like they'll stick it in Central and South America instead because the hill camore is a clean Hill for example right so this is a problem time and time again I guess is that the church has to constantly pivot and react to new discoveries in the world of science and scholarship and study but also it doesn't like ever do it in a very honest way it doesn't just come out and say whoa there's been DNA you know uh research that challenges these core narratives that we've been teaching people for 200 years so we're changing the introduction we'll let you all know why we want to be as accurate as possible possible what do they do how do they approach these types of things they Gaslight Us by by what by oh it's always been this way with I don't know they just change it without telling us yeah they subtly make the change but they don't really announce it in a big way yeah and they don't ever give a reason why right well I went onion and they punish the persons who were responsible for helping to make the Chang right whato what we gonna say I went on my mission in 2013 and I was my scriptures still had the old introduction so even though the change was made maybe in some scriptures or started to be made in some in 2006 even you know seven years later when when I bought my scriptures to go on my mission and I still have them they still have the old introduction did you buy a same with mine I went and bought a new one on my mission to to reflect the new changes I'm sorry no not a quad so Spanish versions didn't have a quad until pretty had a triple we had a triple cuz I think some of this was changes to double day the publishing I think were publishing so it's specific to their publication of the book of I think that was 20 was that even the Mormons that we were like handing out to people um they had the old oh yeah that's my point so unless you're getting one printed by double day that wasn't necessarily coming across in the print uh editions and I I just want to make a prophetic pronouncement here this will be the only place you will see any sort of detailed coverage of this little incident right because the church is isn't going to come out and speak on this they're not going to speak on as we'll get to later why it's jumped around places in the app and why it disappeared and why LDS living aren't going to say why the article went down no one's actually GNA talk about it they're just gonna stop and and then and not say anything to your point John yeah we'll see I mean Mormonism live or Mormon will probably cover it right but but I'm talking about the ex space or the post space is the only place you see of it that's what I meant well okay so back back to the slides we've got a slide from beir herard or Julia do youall want to talk about you know the role of apologetics historically um and how they tried to explain away yeah so fair uh Fair latter days Fair latterday Saints you know it used to be fair Mormon yeah um they are an apologetic um independ supposedly independent arm of the church and I said supposed because because we having able to trace money going directly from the church to Fair Mormon um in you know in their public disclosure 990s uh so anyway so what their whole purpose you know is come up with apologetic responses or faithful responses to hard questions um about the church and I I thought this was pretty interesting this um article that they have on their website which is asking the question why did the church modify the inter ruction of the Book of Mormon from principles ancestors to among the ancestors and it seems to give a pretty um honest answer and it says the church made the change in the wording to remove the Assumption which inserted Into the Book of Mormon introduction in the 1920s and not part of the original text that all the inhabitants of the Americas were exclusive descendants of Lehi I think they got the wrong the date wrong because they production was in the 80s that's that right so right years um wrong there but um but yeah just basically saying you know that the change was made the Assumption uh to make the introduction compatible with current DNA evidence and acknowledges the fact that lehi's group likely intermingle with the native inhabitants of the Americans um and then and then going back to our episodes that we did earlier um about the yeah about the Blackness CU like Joseph Smith Joseph Smith the prophet at the mouthpiece for God said that all the Native Americans were Lites and Pacific Islanders right like North South Central America Islanders they're all lonit and the church that Joseph Smith knew that all the early founders of the church knew that and and uh you know that's for 200 years taught everyone right can we put that slide back up for a second because I think there is something there's a couple of important things there that need um speaking about yeah first I take exception to the word assumption because that's essentially blaming the reader or blaming the members of the church like well you guys assumed wrong so you know that's your fault your problem which is a tactic apologist use all the time it's like well you were just understanding it wrong oh I'm sorry you were teaching it to me that way or they could be saying the bureaucrats at Church Headquarters made assumptions as if they weren't influenced by two centuries of prophet and re Propet and re themselves yeah this had been the generally held belief from the time that the church was restored well who was around at the time the church was restored Joseph Smith the man who codified more Revelations from God than any other Mormon prophet since they all got written down in DNC uh throughout DNC so if that belief was held from the time of Joseph why a fair get to say it's some sort of erroneous belief that's crept the whole point of the restoration of the church is that it's undoing all these problems that have crept into Christianity so then how can there be a problem that's crept in from the moment it was restored because the restor the restoration needs a restoration that's why we have deor stuffer rest the restoration right yeah oh my gosh no sense to be like Oh Yeah from the time of the founding of this restorationist movement and era had crept in well then it wasn't really good restoration was it yeah sorry that's a good point yeah so uh yeah so is there anything we want to say about this desert news article other than what we've already said this is yeah just just that the church itself uh a a year later would cover the story and it was actually an interesting article I didn't include the article there but they do mention uh Thomas Murphy and Simon sturn as kind of steering the pot about the DNA evidence and then they quote mostly and it sounds like they interview John senson who's kind of giving his apologetic spin as to why the uh book of morm introduction was um was changed but but it was interesting that you know they're acknowledging that it it is regarding the DNA debate in publication and I'm gonna be HED about this and just you know Simon sutherton Bishop Simon Southerton was excommunicated for making the church aware about this problem he was literally excommunicated the church excommunicates the people that tell the truth and educate the church membership as they correct the lies or the harm the church tells that I can't think of a more condemning aspect to a church culture than that and Thomas Murphy was threatened with excommunication and the only reason he wasn't excommunicated was because he threatened to involved the media and I think the church considered this issue you know the Book of Mormon is considered what the the Keystone of our religion I think that's what it's called in other words if that Stone Falls the entire religion collapses and I literally think the church avoided excommunicating Thomas Murphy to avoid bringing too much visibility to this problem I don't know but one more Point sorry uh on that uh Fair Mormon slide again if you just chut that up real quick um there is a real Smoking Gun there that fair Mormon admit to and I think shouldn't be overlooked yeah and it's a question I just want to leave people hanging in the air it says um this change so the 2006 change to introduction makes the Book of Mormon introduction compatible with current DNA evidence why was it not compatible before why have you had to change that in order for it to be compatible when that introduction was written by a committee of prophets seers and revelators just sit with that question people that's that's all you need to sit with yeah why was it not compatible and I actually add one more and this is why the eldest discussion series is so important go back and start from the beginning because what this little change to among right so let me go back um you know let me go back and just show it really quickly the change from they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians to they are among the ancestors is an attempt to shrink the bullseye because because it was it was unambiguous for two centuries starting with Joseph Smith that it was just simple all Native Americans are descendants of either you know Lehi Layman Lem Nephi or um the the tribes that came before who was that I'm Russ jedes jedes it either descendants of jaredites which which of course is Tainted by the fact that the Tower of Babel never happened right and the jaredites were all wiped out yeah right the jaredites or the the Le the the Nephites basically and lonit so so when you when the church changes it's it's basically put into a corner where it has to shrink the Target and so it's what you see the church doing is moving from Joseph Smith's narrative which was tip of North America to tip of South America all Layon nightes to well actually The Book of Mormon probably happened in this teeny tiny little area probably in Guatemala maybe a little bit in Mexico but it was just all the Book of Mormon because also the geography never lined up to begin with so they so they have to make a teeny tiny area and the you know the labits and KN fights they all happen in this little place in Central America and then somehow there's two koras there's a hill kamora in Central America where you know the plates were buried but somehow they got teleported to this other you know Hill up in rapley says she walked he just walks for ages with with the 50 pound with the 50 pound plates he just well if Joseph can run three miles home with him you know Moroni can SLE him up to a hill for a couple of months big deal right am I wrong like this change alone was a really big deal right that that the church kind of just got away with anyway yeah well it also changes um it changes the Book of Mormon from um you know possible be being able to prove it to now indistinguishable from a fraud you know yes how can you ever prove that this is this is true right and the reason why we're going back to this history is because like the Mormon story's audience 70% of the Mormon story's audience turns over every years like in three years 70% of our audience is brand new to these questions and so we're g to just everyone needs to be reminded every three years as our whole history is am I wrong that's good no it's absolutely true okay so now that you have all that context let actually bring up the story who wants to take us to the current story Nemo okay do that a little bit so um I and this was a late edition so what people need to know is that the past 3 or 4 days has just been constant new things coming up when it comes to this story so this is a very much a live and developing story at the moment um but the CH the the BYU uh newspaper the daily Universe um talked about this in October they covered this and if you go to the next Slide John so October 11th 2024 if you go to the next slide uh they make it clear that the um app involved an update to the introduction so the update modified the book in the app wait wait before before we get started do you mind if I say so the the app so this is this is different I have a slide on it later but this is very different than the Gospel Library app yeah and so the the book of Mor app is specifically for Mormon excuse me specifically for missionaries to give to investigators so it's very much for the world consumption the world to to figure out what what we're all about so this so this is happening not in the Gospel Library app but in this in this one that's very important in Mormon app is an is it's like the equivalent to the Book of Mormons that uh missionary used to hand out or the members used to hand out it's basically read the book of Mormon here's your first introduction to Mormonism get get the Book of Mormon app and study it to know if it's true right guess who wrote that article John who ANC no no who uh our friend Eon from from CES letters oh what written by Easton hot oh my goodness that's funny oh wow that's okay his first name is so Mormon then his last name is a technique the church uses to make people want to buy their stuff so like a really Mormon name EAS anyway right see I'll read that next slide for about the Book of Mormon app pointed at investigators for the church right okay go ahead and Nemo let's just read it yeah I'll read it yeah okay yeah so the Church of Jesus Christ Last Day Saints recently updated the Book of Mormon AB which is this very specific app making its introductory material more user friendly which that's not what that's about um easier to click on poly user friendly it was it's really hard to find out how to start reading the book of Mor um the updates modified the book of Mor's introduction in the app and added context to the witness statements and the testimony of Joseph Smith uh but we're focused on the book of woman introduction here he then gives added wait did it add context or did it take away context that's right I don't know I haven't looked at it um but he said first keep it going keep it going yeah he said first published in 1981 with subsequent minor updates in 2003 and 2006 the Rewritten introduction was reduced from 561 words to 235 words for the app we're removing words this new introduction is so much shorter and more concise then they they speak to John Hilton II a BYU professor of ancient scriptures he said he loves the new inviting and modern language and believes it's more reader friendly next slide please all it's all about reader friendly yeah user adding context by taking out 50% of the words this is great this is like George Orwell 19 1984 this yeah this is like we were always yeah right um I don't think we need this slide actually let's move on from that yeah all right yeah there's nothing important that so this one is is interesting so um it's not necessarily new stuff that wasn't there before it's better versions of the same stuff that's a qu wait wait where right at the top of this slide oh it's John Hilton about it it's on the article yeah yeah in the article um the screen on the new stuff that wasn't there before yeah better versions of the same oh my gosh yes I mean they not through they have to spin this right this spin right oh gosh so so what you see here though is um that's the app you see it on the right and pay attention there's a section called what is the Book of Mormon you'll see it it's a little square down to the bottom just just hold on to that we'll come back to that later but hold on to that that already exists in the app as of October the 11th right that is there it's populated it's got stuff in it okay next SL we don't need anymore this is good sorry all right slide okay so what is here they are now showing what the new introduction is right they've got it out in text on the right and they they've talked to Barbara Morgan Gardner profession of church history saying that they're excited um for those who aren't members of the church and for International Church members that's a quote there but you can see here they've got a screenshot of it as the introduction okay so it's very clear as of October this was the new introduction to the book of Morman in the Book of Mormon app specifically okay that's what we need to to Really Hammer home here so this shows that the change got made got made and this shows what the change was as of October yeah right okay so this was this was a done deal done deal right okay then LDS living reported on okay what living who wants to tell our audience what'll well I don't know if I know specifically because I don't think it's owned by the church but but it is owned indirectly by the church indirectly by the church okay so they whatever the church wants them to publish they publish actually I should say not indirectly it is owned by the church it is owned by the church but through their um for-profit arm oh okay that's their management okay so it is owned by the church okay so graia I don't know how else you describe it okay yeah so from uh by the church just as much as the church owns desert news and desert book oh then yesl right no well yeah I I I believe KSL is a little bit more removed but I it could be wrong okay so I don't know why the daily is the daily Universe Nemo I don't know why that one didn't get as much traction as this one but LS living probably because everyone has this it's just for students of BYU so comes direct to your inbox okay yeah so this one this one was published on December 3rd of 2024 quite kicked off like this is what kicked off Nathan nathany Rebecca yeah yeah everyone Nathan's in the comments we'll ask Nathan if he wants to share where he first learned about it but anyway keep going to yeah so they published this and then we can go through I took some screenshots of it if you want to okay headline says the headline have you seen this new introduction to the Book of Mormon and so like they are they are presenting it as the new introduction of the Book of Mormon they do specify that that's crazy that it's gone now it's we're December 9th it's gone but six days ago it's like we want the whole world to know about this right and it had been there since October yes LDS living were like oh this thing that happened back in October come look at this right they do point out and you've got the there's a picture of the person holding their with the book of app so they are saying that it is in the app which again is just for missionaries to give to investigators it is not reflected in Gospel Library people got mad at me for not including that in my video U but like anyway so this is what the world is seeing as the Bor and they're introducing it as the a new introduction so like so I took a few screenshots um so if we go yeah so why an update why an updated introduction read it slow the church the church first published an introduction to the Book of Mormon in 1981 releasing minor updates in 2004 and 2006 so Eon got his dates wrong because it was 20 2004 not three this basic explanation shared background information for modern readers and was not featured in the original plates of course the revised version of The Book of Mormon app is 169 words shorter than the introduction that many members today are familiar with so they're even comparing the two they're not saying this one they're like it's like replacing the other one in my that's what I'm was reading it features more conversational phrases directed toward the reader aligning closely with language and teaching principles from preach my gospel it is very much very much the same wording or similar wording to preach my gospel whereas the old one is not at all um preach my gospel is very like entered it's like it's like you're talking to the investigator and that's very much what the new one is reflecting the old one doesn't have the word you or you in at all um so yeah so 169 is they're comparing the two to me it's like oh we're replacing the old one with this new one even though it's just so far in that one app so and then there's another we if you go to the next slide really quick I just want to share Daisy May uh thanks for the Super Chat she writes LDS living is a division of Desire book perfect so that's good to know okay yeah let's go to the next slide thanks so they're quoting John Hilton the third again because I think they quoted him in the October right yeah they did yeah y okay so professor of so John Hilton I thir professor of ancient scripture at by Brigham Young University believes this updated introduction will help more readers understand the purpose of the Book of Mormon and feel drawn to its message he said the whole point of reading the scriptures is to connect us to Jesus Christ uhuh the reality is that for some people the language of the Book of Mormon is going to be really hard to understand I really believe that as we help people understand what the Book of Mormon is about that just makes people more likely to want to read the book of Mormon this is crazy okay can I just point out a couple things here number one what is John Hilton I thir a professor of ancient scripture is the Book of Mormon ancient scripture like is that is that ironic that that that the whole question here is is the Book of Mormon even ancient scripture all evidence points to no and so BYU has a professor of ancient scripture Hawking The Book of Mormon is ancient scripture but we all know it's actually modern fanfiction most likely so that's that's ironic right but then but then the whole point is to connect us to Jesus yeah but what they're really saying is don't pay attention to the history right this is an exercise in obscuring and and and deep sixing as much historical information as we can so you won't get caught up in actually trying to think of it as ancient scripture just think about your relationship to Jesus don't worry about like the dates and the names and the details and the history because that's just gonna cause you problems am I wrong that's right yeah yeah and and and just I think we LDS discussions has done episodes on the book of Mor not being ancient text I like to refer to like um David bavo and and Dan mlen because like they talk about how certain parts of the book of morm are not historical at all any anyway just those are some things to like look at if you if you question Nathan hinley is in the chat I've star his comment he's letting us know how he found out about it oh yeah I'm G to share that in just a second the the only other thing just about this quote is I really believe that as we help people understand what the Book of Mormon is about uh that it just makes people more likely to want to read it what they're really doing is trying to hide more about what the Book of Mormon is about to make people want to read it right yeah because are they putting their font forward saying the Book of Mormon is about two groups of people who skin color was altered so that they would be recognizable from one another and to create hatred between the two groups and they would eventually flipflop flipflop flip-flop until one group dies that's what the book of moment's about so so what that last sentence really should say is I really believe that as we obscure and hide what the Book of Mormon is really about that more people will likely be want to will want to read it a deeply racist worldview explaining the habitation of the American continent okay really quickly Nathan thanks for chiming in Nathan says the missionaries shared it with a friend who texted me about it they said that it was updated about a month ago so missionaries that's a good yeah so missionaries are very aware because they're that's what they're sharing investigators in in business you know the best way to understand the Mormon church is is as a business and what do we know about marketing right you got a funnel you want a funnel people in and so you want the top of the funnel to be as Broad and as easily acceptable as possible and then as you get them hooked you get them connected with missionaries you get them going to church you get them uh indoctrinated and loving the community then you give them more information but you want the top of the funnel to be as generic and as God and Jesus friendly as possible and and and not obstructed by Joseph Smith and his polygamy and the weird translation stuff so isn't that am I wrong is or just Joseph Smith at all because he doesn't get a mention in the new introduction at all he's just removed from it entirely the angel gets a mention John Hilton shouldn't be a professor of ancient scripture he should be a professor of marketing Am I Wrong well yeah not really I mean it's really a professor of marketing anyway let's keep going okay yeah so I just made this slide just to make it really clear because people push back on me they're like no no no it's not in so so it is reflecting well no it's not anymore but it was reflected in the book of app not in gospel not in the gospel library and not in the the printed text of what you find in the book of yeah so I just wanted to make that very clear you could literally just like have a have this like vertical and have it be a right like this is what the world sees this is what investigator see top of the funnel let's not mention josea Smith let's you know let's leave out lots of details all the details get tripped up they'll just get up right okay all right sorry yeah so again we're just reading a dead horse like the the app is used spefic specifically for missionaries for investigators okay all right yeah all right so we got a little bit of History here right because is it okay if I talk about this yes of course okay so we have to give a little bit more context for those of you who missed about 10 years ago um or 20 or 30 so once upon a time there was a man named Daniel Peterson it was so funny I was asking Julia today like Julia is Julie's like one of the leaders in the in 2024 in like help educate Mormons about the history the churches hid from them and I asked Julia do you know who Daniel Peterson is and Julia what was your answer I don't know like I I understood a little of bit as you talked more you're like wait who like isn't it amazing that in like literally just 10 years right Church's arop can recede into almost complete obscurity one of the leaders in challenging the Mormon Church's truth claims in Julia doesn't even quite know who the dude is isn't that amazing oh yeah isn't that's amazing all right before we talk about uh we we'll thank Ain heims for the Super Chat she writes grateful for Nathan hinley Rebecca bibla and all of you for keeping nuanced members informed of important information that she won't get from church leaders sounds like Aaron is a is an active member of the church and she's Thanking us for teaching the stuff the church doesn't the church is hiding from her basically all right so just a quick history once upon a time there was this uh hack of a of a scholar named Daniel Peterson who professed to be a scholar of of I don't know ancient studies or whatever he started with Farms the foundation for ancient research in Mormonism which then got converted to the Maxwell Institute and his role as Chief apologist for the church was to make up pseudo scholarship to try and make the church look credible when it wasn't and when it had no standing as as as a credible you know as the Book of Mormon had no credibility as an ancient document and the best example of Daniel Peterson's schi scholarship is what Nemo the Mormon tap that's sorry you got a point you got a point got a point what what is that Nemo that is a horse or a tapier depends and what's the context well is in horses did not exist in the time of uh The Book of Mormon events they'd already G extinct in North America by that time and they wouldn't be brought back again until Columbus turned up uh so they aren't there but the book on woman text mentions horses so what could they possibly be that OD toate behind me tapers the size of a small pony and you've there's a video that I've done videos on like reacting to and And discussing where Dan Peterson gets all high and mighty and uh people that just don't understand anthropology don't realize it's actually a Tapia and he's he's so SMY about it but he's just presenting this idea that these things pull chariots these small pony likee creatures so I went and did a video recently where I went to a zoo I got in the enclosure with a tapier and was like this nonsense has to end we just have to stop this this stupid idea uh and I spoke to the keeper and I was like could you get one to pull a chariot could you ride one would it go to war for you and he was like no they're scared by the wind John the tapier that I was with the wind blew through the branches and it ran off they are so unbelievably skittish and just not domesticable particularly in any way one of the favorite things I've ever seen on the on the Mormon internet I think Jeremy R oh my gosh Jeremy RNs put this together back in the day but it's sort of it's an animated diff where Native Americans are like going to battle uh being pulled on chariots by taper right I'm pretty sure Jeremy Reynolds helped helped create have y'all seen this I have not seen before that is so funny isn't that amazing really put that in the show notes I should totally put that in the show not anyway th that this is just giving people an example just one example of the absolutely lame apologetics that Daniel Peterson um shephered for for several decades right and then and then one of my proudest moment moment on Mormon stories is when I worked with others including some in the Maxwell Institute to get Daniel Peterson removed in 2012 from uh from the Maxwell Institute and that that's one of the proudest achievements of my 20 years at Mormon stories podcast and that's a story for another time but long story short is Daniel Peterson and Lewis Midgley and Bill Hamlin and all these hack pseudo scholar John Sorenson all these fake scholar lame apologists finally were demoted by the Mormon Church they mostly relied on ad homm and on excommunicating people like Brett mcaf and Simon zton and Thomas Murphy um and what happened was the church got a new leader for the Maxwell Institute after Daniel Peterson was dethroned and the new leader of the Maxwell Institute eventually was was a really nice bloke as Nemo would say his name was Spencer fluman um and so Spencer fluman was this young and up and coming Mormon historian who was was a good historian but he was also faithful but he was also not into pseudo science not into lame ass explanation and he was not in ad homonym like we all celebrated the uh promotion of Spencer Lumen to replace the hack lame uncredible unethical atomist uh you know relying Daniel Peterson and and by the way as a side note Daniel Peter uh Spencer fluman was viewed as sort of like the spiritual son of Jeffrey R Holland so it was Jeffrey R Holland who helped put Spencer fluman as the head of of the Maxwell Institute and it's known for those who know Spencer that that Jeffrey Holland considered Spencer fluman to be like the spiritual son um of of Jeffrey R Holland so that's a bunch of History to then take us to 2018 where uh this really nice thoughtful courageous couple named Brooke bonam Miller and Josh Miller came to me when I was at my old Studios um my old Mormon story Studios back in 2018 and they wanted to tell me a story and basically the story they told me was that Josh lost his faith Brooke was freaking out about it and for some reason they had a contact with uh Spencer fluman so they go to the Maxwell Institute in 2018 and they they they talked to Spencer fluman about all their questions and doubts about the church and specifically about Book of Mormon uh historicity and about book of Abraham historicity Etc and they record the conversation with Spencer fluman and then they share that recording with me and so I'm like whoa what types of explanations are is Spencer fluman giving to people behind the scenes if it's not lame ass pseudo science hack um non-scholarly apologetics and so what I what I thought I do is I would pull just a couple minute clip from this interview because it's a foreshadowing of what the church is actually doing now kind of six years later should we roll that clip is that okay yes all right here we go on the one hand we're excommunicating gr Palmer for trying to come up with a theory of how Joseph was using his eclecticism to create the Book of Mormon and yet Spencer flumen is now telling us all that Joseph is heavily influenced by whatever sources around him and he's hitting the maximal LI atude so like which is it are you excommunicated for that or are are you now honored and supported and paid for saying things like that it it sends a real mixed message that the church has to account for either stop excommunicating fwn Brody and Grant Palmer and Michael Quinn and me John and Jeremy ronals right don't excommunicate us all but then have a leader of the Maxwell Institute it's basically saying all the exact same things but just in private right yeah but right and I think they're the same issues same questions same explanations you know I think he found he's found a place that makes him comfortable with all of this and there's lots of things that he gets on into like how we'll get there okay okay we can hold on that what were we gonna talk about which which thing oh I was just gonna say how he after studying all the all of the contents from Brigham Young Journal discour we'll get there we're going to go more I like how he says inspired El Electic ISM inspired eclecticism yes thank you I like how he says that but because that kind of just defines it all really I mean pulls from here pulls from here pulls from here and voila we got a finished product and I was really struck he calls the Book of Mormon Joseph's grandest Revelation and to call it a revelation is it's what we're doing with the book of Abraham right it's not a we have all been told Joseph himself said I'm a translator I translate I use the artifacts to translate there's an old language and We're translating to a new language he's calling it a translation we're all taught it's a translation we all believe it's a translation now we're changing the narrative to call it a revelation so have the Book of Mormon is not a translation it's a revelation and okay so that's that was the narrative for me that that that may be old news to you guys for me that was big big news at the time I mean I think what we what we need to be spending more time on really is is one how great John's um jumper and shirt game were in that video it was just excellent and also a moment to applaud the increase in production quality that Mor stories has undergone over the years um you guys don't don't know you were even born so really quickly just to kind of like whatever happened to Spencer fluman like kind of a tragic story I asked chat G PT to tell me what happened to Spencer fluman and this is what Chad GPT said based on the formal line Spencer fluman stepped down as the executive director of BYU's Neil Maxwell Institute for religious scholarship in May of 2023 after serving from 2016 his decision was voluntary contributed to personal and professional factors including his desire to continue contributing to the university in other capacities fluman expressed gratitude for his tenure which included efforts to expand the institute's scholarly influence blah blah blah unfortunately that's you know chat gbt sometimes you know conveys the opposite of truth because my understanding is Dan Peterson and his hacks and his cronies never stopped nipping at the heels of Spencer fluman to the point where they just continually undermined him challenged him uh and um worked against him to the point where Jeffrey H himself ended up throwing his own spiritual son under the bus uh you know basically pushed out Spencer fluman and um that Golden Era of what was called pastoral Mormon apologetics or Neo apologetics was completely mothballed and Spencer fluman was was was basically unceremoniously uh thrown under the bus by his spiritual father Jeffrey R Holland and Nemo ironically you you know you uh so here so he came running into my arms John here's again here's a photo of we should have a big red X or or a picture of Jeffrey Holland throwing his spiritual son under the bus but um but here's a picture of Nemo and Spencer fluman what the fetch are you doing with Spencer fluman well Spencer came to Oxford which is you know where I go to church um we get all sorts of academics rocking through the ward and a lot of Americans but Spencer fluma I turned up one week he'd arrived in the port and he was teaching Sunday school so I thought well this is going to be fun so uh and a great time was had by all with Pence fluma as my Sunday school teacher on that day um that was that was a bit of a wild ride but yeah know we we got along we would chat I'd go to the sort of open theology sessions he'd do at Pembrook College along with the Anglican Minister who's a b basically part of our Ward at this point um yeah yeah Spencer's a good guy I like Spencer as a person really like him he's a good guy oh he's great he's so loved he's he's honest he's smart he's kind and honestly he was too honest because once word got out about what he was telling people then all the the classic apologists were like you got to get rid of this guy the church is going to be doomed if we're actually honest right if we're actually honest with people and and tell the truth um and try and then come up with new justifications for how the Book of Mormon can still be inspired but not actually be an ancient record well that won't be good and so you know the honest people get get thrown out in this church and so it's actually a tragic sad story um and and it's just so Mormon just like when EAP Benson was becoming inconvenient with his John burer sort of teachings in the 60s what happens he gets exiled to Europe right he's literally sent to Europe by the quum or by the first presidency because he's an embarrassment in the United States and I wouldn't say Spencer Filman was an embarrassment but it's like if he's if he's sticking around people are gonna ask questions why were you removed why why were you booted booted out by Jeffrey Holland and so it's like get him to Europe right let's get him out of the mix and I know he had to had some health issues that were also involved but it's so Mormon to sort of get rid of the inconvenient person and and put him somewhere else for a number of years so that people don't ask questions yeah set him hang out with me instead all right so we're laughing but this is serious sad stuff so anyway shout out to Spencer fluman you did good work you deserve to be treated better you didn't deserve to be thrown under the bus by Jeffrey R Holland yep big rant over so now we're back to Julia's Julia's video right yep yeah December 5th okay go ahead we're take up the story from here yeah I just wanted to like so I say it I say this list in the video I'll just go over it again okay yeah so let's slow yeah so what is so there's a lot of things that are not mentioned in the new introduction like we've been talking about so like moroni's name it does mention the angel but it doesn't mention him by name it doesn't mention Joseph Smith it doesn't mention the three or eight Witnesses it doesn't even mention gold plates it doesn't mention Nephites lamanites jaredites or Native Americans of any kind it doesn't mention Jerusalem or the Tower of Babel it doesn't mention the yman thumb or the sear stones in a hat which they the new the all one didn't anyway it doesn't even mention the Bible it doesn't say that the Book of Mormon is the most correct of any book on Earth like it's it's so the person so um Hilton or the third yeah like he's saying oh this is like way clearer like no it's not you're taking out all the history historical context all of it so this is and by the way Julia did you did you make this list Julia I made this list yeah okay so yes or no LDS discussions panelists have we done episodes on LDS discussions about the problems with morona yes or no yeah how about the problems of Joseph Smith yep yes how about are do we have episodes on the three and the eight Witnesses discussions have we done episodes on the Golden Plates yes specifically have we done episodes on Nephites and Layman nightes and have we done have we done episodes on the jaredites and the problems with the jaredites have have we done episodes on the mountain Builder myth in the Native Americans yes and we literally did episodes on the Tower of Babel yeah how about did we talk about the translation in the searstone and the UR yeah we talked about problems with the Holy Bible as they appear in the Book of Mormon yes like is this like a 100% batting average with what LDS discussions has been sharing with the world very successfully for the past couple years like I mean I'm not saying that they're doing this in in response to LDS discussions and there's many many scholars that that that Mike built upon including think including Jeremy rynolds including Brett meaf and Simon sutherton and d and David bavo and there's you know Sunstone and dialogue and Mormon history Association like we all stand on the shoulder the Tanners oh yeah Sandra Tanner like Utah Lighthouse Ministry but like this is this beautiful culmination of all of these people's efforts into the church this is like we've caught them in the act of responding to uh the the obvious problems with Mormon with with with Book of Mormon historicity that the internet has successfully brought shine a light upon and that we've caught them in the act of retreating and obscuring the narrative in response to the evidence am I wrong no I mean are are we being are we being narcissistic well by making a connection we've caught them we've caught them in the act of doing this for now but then it'll all change again in a few slides John yes okay all right so anyway thanks for making that list Julia that's a really good list yeah what so I just wanted to point out that um so the very so this used to be the case and I took screenshots of it so if you go to the very like if on the contents page if you go to the very bottom it says appendix and then it then it shows you the testimony of Joseph Smith the witnesses the overview of the Book of Mormon which it talks about the Nephites and lonit and so they put it all the back they put it all at the very back like just like it's still there but it's at the very back so so I don't know where where investigators are going to ever like I I guess when they're finish reading the book of Mormon they'll get to that point um but yeah it's just at the very back so those things were there but they're at the very back yeah it's basically hiding the football right yeah they buried the lead yeah they the lead right yes so that you'll get sucked in by other things but not distracted by the the distracted by Joseph Smith or the gold plates or th Native Americans or the Tower of bab or yeah all these things that have been proven false okay right all right so what's this this is the actual new introduction this is the actual new introduction I do think we should read it can we read it slowly yes and sarcastically you should read it John you do it then John okay this is the new introduction everyone are you ready let's do it God God is your heavenly father he loves you and there's so much he wants to teach you he wants you to understand the purpose of your life he wants to guide you back to his presence part of his plan for doing all this was to make this book available to you since the beginning of time God has spoken to his children all over the world often they have recorded their experiences and God's messages to inspire future generations to choose good instead of evil and come to know their father in Heaven some of these records are lost to time others may be found one such record was buried at a hillside in around ad 400 on the North American continent its location was revealed by an Angel in 1823 it was translated into modern language by the gift and power of God that record is the Book of Mormon it's called The Book of Mormon because an ancient Prophet named Mormon compiled centuries of writings from other prophets into one book it is subtitled another Testament of Jesus Christ because it Bears powerful witness that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who came to Earth to suffer and die for the sins of the world including yours he wants to heal you um of your sins make you whole again and prepare your ET for eternal life with your heavenly father we words about this no no no we can't go to the next slide just yet oh not yet we need to discuss what's just happened okay I think we've all been transported to a uh a delin home like family home evening Circ of 2003 uh yeah that was interesting John were you ever a primary teacher yes did you ever speak like that to primary children I'm sure I did I'm sure I did okay sorry okay it's not done yet though yeah oh we're not done okay no we're not done so one more slide okay uh second slide in this book you will learn of faithful courageous people who received light and knowledge from Heaven they believed in God they had faith in Jesus Christ even centuries before he was born they made great sacrifices for their faith they also made mistakes but they obtained Redemption from their sins and they risked their lives to share the true doctrine of Jesus Christ with others and then Pres OB erve his teachings for future Generations including you read the book of Mormon with an open heart and mind sorry open mind and heart as you pray to your father in Heaven and diligently seek him within the pages of the Book of Mormon he will reveal the truth to you in his time and in his way he directed the creation and preservation of this record to fulfill fill his holy purpose and you are an important part of that purpose may you find God in these pages and discover his messages to you are we are we seeing the comments where people are saying you sound like Thomas S Monson John can you wiggle your ears can we can we see that I'll try there you go how you did all right y'all y'all so so honestly my my my diction aside what do y'all think of this new uh introduction what are your just cold reactions to it there's nothing there like there's no there's nothing there go back to what's missing also also the hill camore is kind of missing they don't say it by name right so yeah a hillside in around ad400 somewhere on the North American continent we don't anymore New York don't know just somewhere just somewhere a hillside around North American continent we don't even know where it is did we cover discussions we so I should have added that to the list the hore is not even talked about where yeah I've said re to some stuff that's been said earlier that this is them leaving a door open right for so much apologetics it was buried in a hillside not necessarily the one that Joseph got it from because the angel revealed its location not where the hillside was was but where the plates were oh that's a good point do you know what I mean there there's so much space there in one place and then God took them and put them in another place and Joseph was shown where to go to get those not necessarily the same Hill are they catering to the the um sorry this is off topic are they catering to the like the the meso America yeah and the um oh my gosh Rod Meldrum har thank you it's whatever you want it to be they're making it so Bland it's like a chose an adventure thing where he's just like well you you work it out yourself whatever you want it's it's no longer about Joseph did this this is a book about these people it's like nah this is just a book about it doesn't even say who the book's about anymore other than like just these people made mistakes they followed God you know they repented just these random generic people I I said I said in my video on Sunday that like it talks about how they had faith in Jesus Christ even centuries before he was born like that's really thing weird thing to front up with this like there sort of Methodist Christians that existed hundreds of years before Christ was born that's always been a weird thing about the Book of Mormon and they're now fronting that and they're going you go right yeah they very anachronistic Tod yeah not that they look forward to the coming of a messiah because that was a common theme amongst Jews and people that existed before Christ they were looking for a messiah to come wasn't that is that they had faith in Jesus Christ specifically someone who wasn't recognizing as the Messiah contemporarily in his own time by the people that he turned up with in Jerusalem they're going no no these people had faith in Jesus Christ centuries before he was born how how were there Christians pre Christ right that's God reveal uh the name of Jesus to either Nephi or Lehi or something like that yeah and he also revealed when he was going to turn up but then they forgot when he was going to turn up later in the book to do with Joseph writing the beginning after at the end yeah wait I also if you go back to the to the very end of the introduction one thing that I noticed so as a missionary um we really emphasize the beginning or excuse me the very end of the introduction to our investigators where it's like they their promises are really strong like if you read the book ni promise right yeah if you read the book of Maron you will find out that it's true and that means that the Jesus is the Christ this church is true and the Joseph Smith was the prophet of God so those were really strong promises that we were giving to our investigators whereas here now these promises are really watered down he was like read the book of Mor with an open mind and like um that God's going to give you the answer in his own time and way like whatever that means and also may you find God on these Pages like what does that mean that's not that's like a really totally different like they're they're getting rid of all the promises and from from my reading of it yeah yeah yeah absolutely and and it like it had moroni's promise in the old introduction and that's just gone there's none of that here where it's like read with a sincere heart with real intent having faith in Christ and you will know the truth of these things it remind God might turn up in these pages right it reminds me of some of the changes made I can't quote them exactly but I've made videos on the changes made for the preach by gospel um where they have changed that and they've taken those out we're like oh we don't know when you'll find out the if the book of morid is true like we don't know so like they're take away they're lowering the promises that that used to be a thing you had to know before you would then get baptized and join the church right right and is it a case that people aren't having that spiritual experience anymore they're not able to manufacture or engender or encourage that spiritual experience in people that they know the book of Mor is true then they get baptized so they're saying right well you'll know at some point so just join the church while you're finding out yeah and like may you find God like not will you like you will find God I don't know yeah yeah it's crazy to me herard what's your cold reaction to to this whole introduction uh yeah I think that was one of the parts that um was the most interesting to me the removing moroni's promise from the introduction and just making it more broad as like the answer is going to come in you know it could come in any way you know if your grandma got sick that was at a hospital at the time the missionaries came and gave you the Book of Mormon oh that's the answer that uh the book of marmel was true or like you don't even like uh I think Nemo just said just said like you don't even need to have an answer or distinguish the answer for you to get baptized because you know it come in in his own way so as soon as you you think you're finding God in the pages of the book of because he mentions the name of Jesus x amount of times then that should be enough for you to be baptized that right that's really um it really interesting and I think it really tackles with a problem that I had as a missionary and I knew missionaries on my mission had which which was uh it is not it was not very common for people to actually receive clear answers when they were praying to see if the book of was true you know but my faith Christ has started when moroni's promise didn't come true for me right exactly I wanted it I was faithful I was righteous at what age I was 16 I was 16 I read the book cover to cover I was Seminary president I was all in and I'm like I'm going to do this and I'm going to get my witness and I knelt down and I prayed and didn't get a witness and so then I got back in bed and then I was sad and then I got knelled down again and prayed and I didn't get a witness and I never got a witness and and I just I just kept acting as if it were true yeah but God literally never gave me the witness that i' had been taught to believe I would receive yeah and that's what they're that's the new narrative now where it's like oh God's gonna answer you eventually John like it this doesn't have to be now any I also I this is not a problem that they've been t trying to tackle for a while you know Elder Christopherson I think gave a talk uh in general conference a few years back where he talked about his experience going and praying about the Book of Mormon and then didn't get he didn't get an answer but then later a thought came on his mind of like oh you've always known it's true so that was your answer because you've always known it's true because that's what you've always been taught and um you know really watering down what it could be or what the answer should be and um that's what it seems that they're doing here as well yeah and people are making jokes in the comment uh like Trevon is saying C John True Believer and I mean yeah maybe but like I again I I didn't masturbate before I was married I didn't have sex I didn't I still haven't tried alcohol I'm 55 like I was Seminary president I read the book cover to cover like what what else could I have done like going to the temple like like and I'm not alone I mean Mormon stories were now 2,000 episodes in and so many people had similar experiences where they never really got the witness that that that Moroni promised that they were led to believe that there would be a burning in the bosom that that they would have a a witness that it was true and so instead they they reshift their context to well I always knew it was true or or you know a testimony is is gained by bearing it so they're manipulated into just lying and telling the world they believe and then you get positive affirmation from everybody that you bore such a strong witness such that you start believing your own lies in effect right right like psychology manipulation 101 yeah you could have done John is you could have tried to find God in the pages of the book and you could have waited for 's own time and his own way to reveal the truth to you the problem the problem was maron's promise I'm still waiting here let me be theatrical heavenly father I am still ready for the witness please let me know the book is true because if it's true I've got some repenting to do right yes you do yes you do not so many maybe just coffee John just coffee not not very remember one cup of coffee coffee can keep enough to keep you out of the Cal Kingdom John oh and bad words yeah bad words another thing that I think worth mentioning that's going on here with Russell M Nelson's Ascent into the the you know the the presidency of the church one of his first actions was to condemn the use of the word Mormon to condemn the identity as Mormons and to call uh a self-identification as Mormons to be a victory for Satan but also to grow the logo of you know a rebranding of Mormonism where Jesus is made larger in the logo and we've shifted away from our Our Roots as a Joseph Smith based church and we've shifted to a more mainstream vanilla Evangelical Protestant CHR Christian Church where we're deemphasizing our peculiarities and our history and if you listen to missionaries now it's like I love my Lord and Savior Jesus and Jesus has you know they talk like my Baptist friends did in 1986 yeah they're five minutes away from saying by Grace I've already been saved yeah I love my Lord and Savior that was never the way Mormons missionaries talk 30 or 40 years ago am I wrong no even the temple is like that like there like Jesus is almost a character you could take out but now they're like putting his picture up everywhere in the slides and like they're just making it very Jesus centered but ironically this new introduction to the Book of Mormon as it was at this point in the story um that the only non deity that is named in that entire introduction is Mormon he still gets a shout out by name he's the only non- deity mentioned he's the only person that is Jesus they can't avoid him because names on the book yeah you know I mean yeah they have to say his name they have to say his name yeah who was made fun of in the book of musical right they got rid of his name too right yeah yeah that's true wait wait as that should be on the list because he's in that should be on the list Moroni yeah and and so the old introduction TS M Moroni as a a glorified resurrected being yeah right that's what they talk about him as in the old introduction now he's just an angel yeah an angel yeah and anything else anything else we want to say about about this uh well so just segue into my next into the next slides to me the removal of all these historical things or seemingly historical like the Nephites the lame knites the Native Americans hisorical thing seeming seemingly historical so this this makes me think of maybe they're trying to pull away from the bookor and being historical at all and so that's why I gather these next quotes is to show that I think that that's what's happening is that they're trying to re to Rebrand or to remove themselves from that and to say that it's just a revelation rather than historical in any sense yeah that's that's where those next slides are and the just so people know the church is never going to come out and say the Book of Mormon is not historical what they're going to do is what they've been doing the past five to 10 years which is the point of the book is it's not a history book it's not a history textbook the purpose of the book is to bring you closer to Christ but not to get muddled down in the history right yeah I me that's what bedar said at last conference I been saying it for a little while now okay so okay so should we play uh okay so go ahead Julia yeah so in Russell M Nelson in 2016 he said and this is an address to New Mission president so these are the mission these are the men who are teaching these missionaries who teach these investigators he said there are some things the Book of Mormon is not president Nelson said it is not a textbook of History although some history is found within its Pages it is not a definitive work of on Ancient American agriculture or politics it is not a record of all former inhabitants of the Western Hemisphere but only of particular groups of people that is like one of the most stunning things I've ever read as somebody who's 55 years old it's also such a lie why why Nemo because the book and woman lists out its coinage politics it lists out the animals it lists out political feuds exactly it lists out who Kings were judges verus Kings government right yes yeah all it literally does all that in fact I believe like it's certain plates certain plates were for matters of spiritual importance other plates were for matters of cultural importance of the lifestyles of these people it absolutely has made the claim since his Inception to be a definitive work on Ancient American agricultureal politics well this is this is Nelson like he's he's inoculating yeah inoculating uh the new Mission presidents he's lowering the bar he's basically saying don't expect too much Book of Mormon it's not a it's not a textbook uh it's it's just to get you closer to Christ well who said who said that it was a textbook I don't think anyone ever any critic or member of the church has claim that the Book of Mormon is his a textbook of History it's like a straw man right it's like straw man that he's putting up there to then knock down right can I just vocalize his comment on screen real quick yeah he says and in the 50 and first year that makes my argument for me right there right and also the sentence where it says it is not a record of all former inhabitants that it it was that way in 1981 but then they changed it in 2006 because it's like oh it's not it's not all of them because Jeffrey Holland I don't have the quote but Jeffrey Holland has come out and essentially said that the land of North America was kept separate and away from any other nation that when they got there they were the first people to get there they were alone they were the only people there I can find that quote for you the text the book of Mor text reflects that idea exactly yeah and and I think we should really just put a fine point on this why is Russell M Nelson making this point in 2016 and not in 2006 and not in 1996 and not in you know 19 881 or or 75 right why is he saying this in 2016 what happened happened in the 10 to 12 years leading up to 2016 again we stand on the shoulder of giants but we've got F we've got BH you know we've covered this on Mormon stories right we've got BH Roberts in the in the secret Mor me Mormon meetings of 19 what 22 telling the all the general authorities that the Book of Mormon might not be historical go ahead Nemo I found the quote from Jeffrey Holland if you want it uh okay you're you're interrupting my rant though no you carry him with your rant I'm just letting you know I've got it when you're ready okay you jump in when you think it's necessary but we've got BH Roberts putting all church leaders on on notice as early as 1922 that the book of Mormon's not historical and then he gets released and hidden and then and then we've got F Brody in 1945 telling everyone through no man knows my history that it's not historical and then we've got the Tanners emerging in the 60s right and then we've got Sunstone emerging in the 70s and dialogue and the Journal Mormon history and then we've got the September 6 and Brett medcafe in in the 80s and 90s but none of that has the internet so it's known in these really small groups of people but not known churchwide it's not until 2004 2005 when the blogs come out well signature books does its amazing books in the late 90s and early 2000s Grant Palmer Simon sutherton Thomas Murphy DNA evidence and then all of a sudden the internet picks up on all the work of all those giants with with blogs and then podcasts and starts pulverizing Mormon Consciousness with facts about Book of Mormon historicity which culminates in the 2013 2014 the Swedish rescue Mormon stories my excommunication then Jeremy Reynolds the CES letter his excommunication again Mormon think and all the other people that contributed that all happens in 2013 and 2014 and 2015 the gospel topics essays we forced them to come out with them by 2013 2014 can anybody deny that these are the reasons why Nelson's giving this quote in 2016 and not in 2006 or 1996 or or or 19 1981 right yeah that's why and and this is still 12 years after Simon suton publishes his book that makes it very clear that we we they they are not the inhabitants you know they're not the predominant ancestors the primary uh descendants or or however it's phrased um I think this is a good time to bring it in actually because you talked about the gospel topics essays yeah um The Gospel topics essays on DNA and the Book of Mormon says the Book of Mormon itself however does not claim that the people's it describes were either the predominant or the exclusive inhabitants of the lands they occupied in fact cultural and demographic clues in its text hint at the presence of other groups right we won't get into that for a moment but you know who was claiming that they were the only inhabitants that they were the predominant or exclusive habitants of the land they occupied Jeffrey R Holland in 1976 he said in the IGN here's his quote Holy Scripture records that after the waters had receded from off the face of this land it became a choice land above all other lands a chosen land of the Lord wherefore the Lord would have that all men should serve him who dwell upon the face thereof that's ether 13:2 such a special place needed now to be kept apart from other regions free from the indiscriminate traveler as well as the Soldier of Fortune to guarantee such sanctity the very surface of the Earth was rent in response to God's decree the great continent separated and the ocean pushed into to surround them the promised place was set apart without habitation it waited for the Fulfillment of God's special purpose so Holland clearly thinks that they were the only people to go there and therefore they are the only people that inhabited that land that then could have produced the lamanites etc etc and so on and so on so who do we believe now because Holland was saying that in the 70s but now the church in response to DNA has had to change it it which means that you've then got the prophet of the church now but he wasn't the prophet of the church then saying to Mission presidents oh yeah no guys don't believe it it they weren't the only ones there that's what we were teaching DNA and the internet I think the internet is a crucial Dynamic yeah for sure yeah yeah sorry that was a little Sidetrack there no it's super important it this is really important to show you know what's what's going on and to match it up with the timeline and if that were enough we've got another quote from Nelson in 2021 so go ahead Julie I can just read it because it's it's a I have to explain a little bit so so as shown on the church News website during a devotional given on October 17th of 2021 president Nelson said that the Book of Mormon is not a textbook president Nelson said that the Book of Mormon is not a textbook any formal history textbook would would give equivalent attention to all its component Generations The Book of Mormon does not do that instead it further clarifies many Bible teachings while revealing new Concepts and refuting many falsehoods including the notion that Revelation ended with the with the Bible and that one can be saved by grace alone but if you skip to the next slide um according to several sources including X an xor Reddit post a postal is freedom forum and a post on New Order Mormon the church News website may have been edited I don't know this for sure but this is my hunch um I I think I I I actually saw because I was involved in um I was uh watching this when this happened okay and I do remember it uh having changed Oh that's oh that's I'm glad we have a first confirmed right okay so the according to the above sources and then herard who was who had heard it that it originally said president Nelson clarified that the Book of Mormon is not a history textbook so rather than textbook it's history textbook instead it further defines many Bible teachings while revealing New Concepts and then that finishes the quote so I just thought it was really interesting that they're they took out that part they took out the History part and like it just really it just looks like he was admitting that it's not it's not really historical and then they're they removed that part I don't know I just thought it was really interesting either way to John's point it's a straw man because no one's coming out and going b as a history textbook no one's saying that right so he's almost he's almost you know fighting an argument that isn't there because it's a it's a weak argument to fight it's the textbook case of when you would use a straw man argument you're like okay I need to push back on a criticism of the Book of Mormon but I need to find a weak one that I can easily push back on that then seems bolster up the history to the book of woman right not a textbook it was never a textbook yeah why would you expect to be a textbook it's not a textbook like no one said it was you know what was a textbook The Late War of 1812 but you know talk about that yeah this is great okay so if Nelson if we did if Nelson weren't enough future Morman Prophet David a bedar right yeah so David a bedar so in a devotional given just five days after president Nelson's address to the new Mission presidents Elder berar made this statement The Book of Mormon is not a book of History The Book of Mormon is a book about the future it describes episodes in the lives of people thousands of years ago but the writers of the record and especially the compilers of the record were inspired by the Lord to include these things that we need that we would need for the world in which we live today so I feel like that one was more specific where he's like it is not a book of history but but it it it it itself says it is a book of History like like in the fifth year whatever whatever was quoted like all these things they're very very specifically a book of History that's the whole reason and he's we're moving away from that like this one was this one's more clearer than the two Nelson quotes but and then he says it again in 2024 we get into that one oh I don't know that I included that one he said in October General Conference he said essentially the same thing that he said there I put it in my video but yeah in the most recent general conference is that what you're saying most recent General Conference he got up there and said the Book of Mormon is not primarily a history book rather looks to the Future oh my gosh I should have added that one so he says it again and it's just so textbook like in a way people like Spencer fluman are treated like Simon sutherton because I'm sure Spencer fluman spent a lot of time laying the groundwork talking to uh you know employees of Church Headquarters and even lower level general authorities like Hey listen this internet thing is a problem Book of Mormon historicity is on the ropes I have an idea we can start calling it a revelation and we can start saying it was never a textbook like I'm sure that Spencer flumen helped lay the groundwork such that Nelson and and and Bednar and others would eventually adopt this marketing spin right but what do they have to do to him for for for helping them correct their course what is the what is the church leaders pattern for anyone that actually corrects them and helps them get things more accurate you have to punish them first so they've got to kick Spencer flumin out of the Maxwell Institute make him irrelevant so that then they can adopt steal ideations and start um misleading people through deceptive language am I wrong no that's exactly what they do they did it the best example is they did it to um Bishop Bishop um right they they uh no that's not the right name what's the right name protect children oh Sam Sam young Sam young sorry I'm thinking of someone else Sam Sam helps awaken theming to the Abus of children excommunicate him and then adopt his recommendations right yes that's the one k k Kelly and ordained women help Elevate the concern about the women being inferior in the church they they punish ordained women and K Kelly and then adopt some of the recommendations right yeah yeah it's kind of gross yeah that they keep doing that um indeed all right so what's next Julia oh I think I already talked about this yeah this is just comparing the promises in the old and new introduction it just wild to me so this is lowering what lowering the lowering the promises lowering the expectations he will reveal the truth eventually and may you find God in these pages it's not like will you will whereas the previous one is you will learn all of these things we promise um so it's just taking away moroni's promise which is like the biggest part of the Book of Mormon because if you don't have that you can't find out the book is true and so like so again you kind of said to me this is saying this is indistinguishable from fraud like you don't know you won't know the EV the answer may come eventually you may find God it's just removing that like this could just be all fake and you that sounds like Affinity fraud right trust me right your results will you results May Vary we talk about the book talks a lot about Jesus so you got to trust it right I wonder I wonder if there are modern examples you know how like people do uh word study analysis of general conference talks over time I wonder if the if the referencing The Book of Mormon as the Keystone of the religion I wonder if the frequency of that phrase being used in general conference has declined in recent years probably because it's a catchphrase just like Covenant path and higher and Holier ways and all these sorts things right those are the ones that are in Vogue at the moment um yeah book of Mor the Keystone of our religion is probably like an 80s one maybe or 90s one and then I wonder Nemo you probably tracked this is Joseph Smith's name being mentioned less and less in more recent General conferences he's certainly being quoted less and less yeah yes okay and Jesus is is probably having a comeback in Mormonism or uh yeah well they talk they say his name a lot but they don't quote him they quote Russell M Nelson more okay genuinely quote Russell M melson more or show his face Joseph's got a red down arrow oh yeah uh Russell and Nelson has a a green up Arrow yeah and Jesus is kind of like a lateral he's stable yeah stable okay all right okay so have we kind of made the point of what happened up until um December 7th yeah I think so and it all went crazy so up until two days ago up until two days ago the the the book the app The Book of Mormon app had this new introduction it had been up for a couple months uh recently LDS living had talked about it and uh it was it was the new change is that correct yeah yeah and then I get a text from Nemo what happen what no actually then yeah then then at I I'll just show the slides the slides up yeah like I see Julia's I see Julia's Tik Tok that's got 50,000 views and what do I say Julia you're like let's make an episode about this I was like okay yeah yeah I was like this seems like a really big deal right right so I'm like hero make a thumbnail herard so we're like getting all the slides at that point I'm already slaving away to get my video out like John's like we're doing a video's like it's the weekend I I'm busy I can't just make a thumbnail in the middle of a Saturday right Saturday morning so it takes a little bit of time but what happens herard and Julia yeah it all changes yeah so we that the original yeah that was the original one and we had scheduled it we scheduled this episode that you're watching now we just scheduled it December 7th at it was went live or went scheduled at 10:43 Saturday morning Saturday morning 3 am bardo's finally finally able to get a thumbnail up he sches the episode um I'm the worst boss ever and uh we title it Church rewrites scriptures introduction thinking that thinking that will come in Monday morning and be able to point everybody to the app and point everybody to the L website and like and like we'll be able to have a discussion about ches right like end the episode here right this is where the episode would have ended should have ended but no what happen Julia and Nemo and do you want me to run through it Julia yeah sure okay right so next slide please John okay okay then I find this out right so I break this bit of news that LDS living's article because I was editing away on a Sunday right um because I'd turned around my production timetable and i' binned off the video that I was going to be doing uh John sends the message in SL I'm like oh well great I'm already working on a video of this so I'll be able to come in Monday knowing what's going on I'll have all my talking points and then I'm going to get a few more screenshots so I go to the ls living article and it's gone right so it's disappeared at some point Hall down at some point between Mormon stories announcing that they're gonna be doing an episode about this and Julia Julia and you know that 24 hours and also Rebecca Rebecca bibl is posting the all over Facebook right discussion I'm sure there's moles in the Mormon stories podcast Facebook community that are seeing the discussions about this right right yeah you know we don't know I called Julia I was like check this out make sure it's not just me and no it's not just me this page is no longer available same URL we've checked' got the same URL it's just gone which we'd already got the screenshots that's no drama and you know the you jul thank goodness for screenshot and it is on internet archive so the it's still there has it right um next slide please John what were you gonna say something Julia I'll just put those in the show notes so that you can see that okay okay all right so next SL so that's my video that then goes out later that day so 1 pm mountain time um on the sun few hours after it's gone and yeah so you know I'm asking the question is the church still looking at this is historical book more is it still true in that sense Nemo Nemo Mormon stories is coming after him Nemo's coming after him right yeah yeah so I put this video out um and then your your video did come out video goes out yeah okay so y'all can check that out too because Nemo always does great work it's out and then December the 8th 2024 at some point in the afternoon about 20 minutes after my video goes out you can no longer find the introduction in the Book of Mormon app in the introduction section of the T it's not there the old introductions back so it can't just be an LDS living glitch no removing it from the actual app is that right yes because now it's gone from the app this seems to imply there's software developers who are working on a Sunday oh that's really funny someone's breaking um but then next slide please John okay next slide yeah so here it is it disappeared so now you click on the Book of Mormon app you go to introduction and the introduction is just the old one it's the 2006 version of the 1981 one penned by makon group so there had to have been some like oh the Forman YouTube is coming unglued we're gonna get screwed here we gotta get down LDS living and and take this off the app but isn't that like I mean it's possible that it's also okay let's just be honest it's also possible that all of these changes had nothing to do with any of us right in theory Sure in theory how the thing has been up for a couple months already and then you're right and then like all this I don't believe it I think it was I think it was I think they're influenced it's possible though it's possible sure probable not here's one example that maybe LDS article caused other people in the church to notice the problem and that independent of any of our activity they kick the ball off sure going to be a problem but then how did the student newspaper of the Lord's own University have it up for two months and no one from the church did anything about it I mean that maybe maybe less people inside the church read the daily Universe than LDS living I don't know surely the church is monitoring what comes out of the student student newspaper of its own University that it heavily controls to the point you can't wear shorts on campus right if swearing in the locker room of a football game goes against the honor code of that University surely they're monitoring what's being said in the newspaper no I just don't want to be narcissistic or like no you know what I mean like overemphasize our importance but it's fun to at least insert that possibility and on a serious note the church will not give us The Narrative of actually what happened here so we get to say what we think happened they're not gonna come out and explain any of this yeah if they if they won't shape the narrative factually then we'll just present some facts and let people draw their own conclusion yeah we will teach some correct principles and let them govern themselves um right so yeah can we have the next slide please John so it's and I haven't confirmed this so it's literally gone from the app well well no next slide okay what is so what is this again so this is it's disappeared from the introduction section of the app of the app yeah wa but hang on but hang on next slide please but they had to have updated the app right they updated the app well yes but not through like a you had to update it through the App Store just the next time you opened it it was changed oh okay so it wasn't fully removed it wasn't fully removed because okay it now exists in the what is the Book of Mormon section okay that's that right that's the old introduction right there that you can see in those two slides um right that's that's what that is now the reason we've got this last slide is because the what is the Book of Mormon section like I said earlier on in this show remember that it exist that is a screenshot that you're seeing here from the October the 11th article from the daily Universe which means the what is the Book of Mormon section existed in that app while the introduction was replaced which means the question is what was in the what is the Book of Mormon section that's now been turfed out to be replaced with the new introduction that was put there when the old introduction was put back I mean there's a chance that could have both been the same they could have but then how was that unnoticed for two months true and they did call it they announced it in October as the new introduction yes exactly I don't yeah so it doesn't I don't know so if anyone knows what was in that yeah so something else was removed and it's it's that it's what was in the what is the book of Mor section knows what that was let us know yeah this is just a we don't need to talk about this one because Nemo already did that yeah so I mean so I mean what this what this comes back to and I'm just gonna ask for a poll right now of our viewers and listeners I I want you guys to put in the comments maybe we'll do a YouTube poll we should do that we should create in our YouTube Community a poll and let people select which which ones they think are true or none so is so Nemo Nemo Julia and herard I'll let you all aine I'll be I'll be I'll play post and you guys the question what's the question John first question is the Mormon church trying again to rewrite history regarding the book of Origins that's question one Nemo what's your answer there uh I don't think so I think they're trying to leave the door open for a less historical reading of the book in future but I don't think at the moment they're trying to rewrite history necessarily okay Julia I think I'd agree with that because I don't know that they're they won't they won't never admit that it's not that it's they're trying to do that but I think they're like you said the funnel they're trying to make it more um palatable for people who aren't Mormon members of the church hide hide let's not bring up Joseph Smith right away let's not bring up the yman Thum we'll bring those up later but they still believe them okay herard first question um I mean I think it depends on what what you mean by history but uh um if if we're trying to change the narrative as far as like what the Book of Mormon is and isn't you know it seems clear based on the quotes that we showed from Nelson bner and others the book of the the they're trying to deemphasize the historicity of the Book of Mormon so and and that's what also the new introduction seems to be doing so in that sense I think I I would I would agree with the question okay yeah and viewers and listeners you guys can all vote if you just have a on line comment like no there's a poll already on the on the comments 87% of people oh really yes I don't see the poll why can't I see how do you see the poll I think you have to go to YouTube directly is there a way to share that on the screen streamyard won't show it oh okay so 80 wait so go say the stats again herard 82% so far have said yes 83 that they are they are rewriting history yeah okay who put the pull up who put the pull it up I put it up wait now I got to go look at it 111 Vats 8080 oh I see it I see it y so if I show this screen right now is that is that gonna mess up the the is that gonna put us in a there you go a [Music] wormhole like the like this the mirrors in the temple just pause I don't know so there it is 84% it's stream SE down up put1 VES yeah there we go okay so we're at 84 it's at 84 versus 16 okay yeah that's that's the viewers and the listeners opining let's go to the next let's go a and go to the next question is the Mormon church trying to deceive members Andor investigators by hiding inconvenient information about Book of Mormon Origins Nemo Julie you go first J I absolutely think they're trying to hide in deceive like I they're not being honest this is the whole focus of the Book of Mormon it's for the Native Americans that's the whole point it was written it was it was about it's Joseph Smith the whole translation process all of that's been removed I think that they are trying to De see if they're trying to make it more like you said the top of the funnel so they can get in get people to read it get people to commit yeah I absolutely agree with that uh herard do you want to go next or you busy do you want email to go next um I can go next I I I would say um they're trying to be misleading yes misleading about what the Book of Mormon really is how it started they don't want people to be looking at that or paying attention to that you know it's all about Jesus let's just concentrate about how many times Jesus mentioned Book of Mormon that's what's important because no one really can fight against Jesus and if that's the foundation of your testimony of the Book of Mormon then you know who cares about whether it's factually true if he teaches some good things about Jesus that's that's fine all right Nemo you get the last word on this question yeah I I I think they are but I think it's also nothing new you know I mean this is this is the church the way the church has operated since its beginning is keeping information from people some things are secret some things are too sacred to share people you know what I mean this like really heavy though because this is this is the first introduction that investigators have right yeah but I think it's given the way that it's I'm not 100% convinced that the church is bat pedaling here I'm still holding space for the idea that that this is all gone wrong somehow for them and and they've made a mistake because you said they got $250 billion dollar Julia before we came on the show yes but but wealth is no indicator of competence and the church is a massive example of that just more broadly right they've got all the money in world but it doesn't mean they're particularly competent when it comes to certain things because I think that's an interesting talking point is this all just a mistake did someone just put it in the wrong place yeah possibly I don't think so I don't think they did and especially if they introduced it as the introdu this is the new introduction and this is the new introduction and I'm like oh oh sorry so I I held that position Julia like wholesale until I saw the daily Universe article and and then I was like hm so it went unnoticed for two months because if it had been that l living put an article out about this new introduction to the book of Mor Ser start talking um sorry I'll just finish that thought off real quick so essentially yeah if it just been LDS living puts an article out about what was going on with this new introduction and then the church goes oh hang on that was put in the wrong place by the developers let's move it it was meant to be the what is the Book of Mormon section uh LDS living please take that article down because that's not actually What's Happening Here There is no new introduction then that is plausible and you know sort of fine but there's the fact that the daily Universe article had it being called the new introduction for two months well you're saying you're saying what was your final conclusion on that that was my final conclusion on that and now the daily Universe article has thrown that into some sort of uh yeah greyness for so you're okay so you're leaving room for you're leaving room for this is a mistake y okay I still don't I still don't agree because like the church owns both of those things and they are very particular on what goes in and out or what goes out of it church can be historically incompetent administratively and bureaucratically I don't know they excommunicate me for a start so there some top tier incompetence right there okay really quickly looks like it's 95 to5 percent people are saying that the church is trying to deceive uh I I I really want the 5 per to text right now either in YouTube or or Facebook why you don't think this is deception so I want to hear from the 5% I also don't you'all love this recursive Mormon temple effect mirror in the visual that's funny like I almost feel like I'm GNA collapse down a wormhole the closest any of uses are getting to Eternity anymore so I think we should embrace it you know wa I will say though so in the in the in the in the section where the this new introduction is now where it's like um what is the Book of Mormon about or something like this still isn't honest like even if it was just published there I still feel like that's not honest and so yeah I would like to know those 5% like what are your thoughts on this like why do you disagree because like even if it was just that one section that published this it's not it's not being transparent what if somebody were to say look it's just marketing it's a business everyone does it uh you know every every five or t years McDonald's changes its jingle Burger King emphasizes chicken sandwiches instead of McNuggets like businesses change marketing approaches get new things that they emphasize they emphasize new things they deemphasize others the there's there's nothing here these are not the droids you're looking for you're just making like with the swearing thing in the BYU athletes you it must be a slow news day although I will say we have 1400 people joining the live stream right now please subscribe and like this episode please donate to Mormon stories uh mormonstories.org please share and like this with everyone you can by the way um but what about the argument that this is a slow news day and we're nitpicking something silly and unimportant I have I have thoughts I want to hear um the church does not want no one that wants to support the church wants to be inviting comparisons between McDonald's and the church because mcon is famously a real estate Enterprise masquerading as a burger chain and similarly the church is a real estate exercise masquerading as a church so they don't want to invite that upon themselves would be my first point the second point is that McDonald's does not claim to be a restoration of the one Lord's one true hamburger um and similarly mcdonal like the church makes claims that means that it shouldn't be constantly updating in fact the fact that Jeffrey or Holland ever sat down and said this the world goes here and then we go here and then the FL goes here we go here right no that's not right that's not how the church should be working um from the Viewpoint of its claims of being a restoration of the truth right from a PR Matic position of an institution that's trying to remain relevant within a changing world then absolutely yes they should be doing that and they should be doing it quicker and better and to avoid doing harm to its members and all sorts of other things but ultimately based on the claims of a church that claims to be a restoration of the True Church of Christ then they shouldn't be updating their branding in this way constantly because this isn't just branding this is about the public facing claims they are making about the origin of their Sacred Book of scripture this is this is not oh we've got R Moroni and now we've got to vson Christus that's a change in branding even though Nelson said it's not rebranding which is a really weird thing for him to get high and mighty about like yes it is just rebranding you've changed your logo just accept it but this is more than branding this is what the church is choosing to at least it was until it moved it was what the church was choosing to put forward to its uh investigators um and that's the mask they chose to wear to the public and that's dishonest final final Final point there is uh is it a slow news day yeah but is it still really entertaining to talk about yes I I actually think this is really important to talk about I do too go ahead jul well I was just gonna say like I served as a missionary I served in Salt Lake and like this is we talked about the book the introduction all the time like we we read it to our investigators it was really really important and so for them to to do that to change that so these missionaries are reading these to these investigators they're like everything's being watered down everything's you're not being H you're not being transparent I feel like it's a big deal because people who are just now hearing about the church for the first time they're not getting the the the right or the straight answer about what the church is so I I feel like it's a big deal I like I don't know what else to say now herard you're the only actual Layman night Among Us what do you think yeah I think it's important um it's important to talk about for sure I agree with Julia and Imo well what if what if it's just well they're goingon to find out about Moroni and Joseph Smith and the dumbum as they read on and get more discussions and as they read Saints or whatever like it's not like they're changing history they're just you know they're just keeping it you more Universal at the beginning what's wrong with that I mean isn't that kind of how scientologists do it yeah yeah exactly yeah exactly you start out with like self-improvement stuff and then you find out about the thetans and the you know zenu zenu once you pay more money get more invested and that's you know a book that I'll never stop recommending is recovering agency by Luna Lindsay uh you know oh yeah um lifting the veil of Mormon mind control a classic cult technique is to have levels of information and you only learn the deepest most complicated aspects of the church or Doctrine or theology or history once you're already so far in they've got their hooks into you and you and you can't get out yeah so you know I'm answering my own question there do you all agree with that I agree yeah I think I think the introduction reflects it does reflect a change to Attitudes so when in the 80s when you were writing an introduction you were able to make bold religious claims because you were working in still what was a fairly religious environment you know people would more easily accept bold claims about Jesus Christ about discovering the truthfulness of him and this it speaks in bold religious language this new introduction or now whatever you want to call it this new body of text is far softer because I think it reflects a more secular world that it's trying to say oh you know well if you are looking for meaning if you're looking for purpose in your life this is all about you you you because it actually reflects a culture that's become more self-centered over the years you know um the the new introduction is all about what Christ can do for you whereas the old one was all about what Christ expected of you in order for you to get salvation that he was the gatekeeper of right it's like our church is the gatekeeper of Salvation here's what you've got to do to get that and join us whereas it's now it's like well here's what we can offer you um to fill whatever void there may be in your life I think it just speaks to the culture that it's that it's kind of written for yeah all right let's let's do a poll on the final question is well we got 278 responses on the other 95% yes still 95 okay and please everybody like this episode And subscribe to the YouTube channel our YouTube subscriber growth has dramatically slowed in the past year and I don't know why that is but but if you guys will subscribe on YouTube or on Spotify or on Facebook it just helps with our growth so please subscribe like and donate um all right last question herard is going to put this up for those of you following us on YouTube uh I'll ask you first on this one Nemo is Mormon ask first okay goes first I'll do it slow because he may be typing is Mormon Church decision making can we have the old voice back please John is Mormon church decisionmaking heavily influenced by X Mormon podcasters this is the most self-serving narcissistic question of all of course if you have evidence I don't know if it's narcissistic I say yes what you think that we are the reason like Nemo Julia Nathan hinley Rebecca bibla Mormon stories you think we're the reason why the church has took down the LDS living article and changed the app yes like if we had if if Julia hadn't have done the Tik Tok video again if if if if Nathan hadn't have mentioned this on Mormon stories podcast Community if Rebecca hadn't have posted all over Facebook the comparison side by side if Julie hadn't have made her Tik Tok video with 50,000 views if we hadn't have scheduled uh that we were about to bitchslap them with this episode if Nemo hadn't have done his video you literally think we it would have been like four days ago five days ago Berto yeah I think the the introduction would have remain and the app is the same and the lest living article is still up yeah really yeah Julia I agree and and I I'm really glad that Nemo posted the is a daily Universe from October and then all the then then a month later or whatever December 5th it was all posted December 3rd it was all posted again and then all this stuff happened Nathan Hanley Rebecca bibla me Mormon stories and then they just changed it the timing just just fits so well with that the church is influenced by xor podcasters and and that's where I think it does hold sta space still for the idea that it was a mistake in that they realized their mistake because they were monitoring the X woman community and saw us all pick up on it but the answer is still yes yeah the answer is still yes exactly my point is the answer is yes regardless of whether it was a mistake or whether they were like ah crap these guys are absolutely taking us to town over this maybe we need to like abort um regardless it's because I think they saw the reaction just broadly online they saw it get internet chatter they saw it and and the in chatter wasn't positive it wasn't like oh look this is a great lovely new article whatever because I didn't see any faithful members coming out and talking about it positively particularly and normally that is what you see when there's a thing like this that's post an LDS living or something like that you see the positive members coming out like with Heaven's helpline when that came out when Murray's uh reporting from New Zealand came out that podcast all the members rushed to the comments to defend it the church put things out to try and push back on it and whatever um whenever these things kind of come out the members are normally on board but there was just no active members talking about this which meant that this group controlled the narrative and the church were like well that's not good so I guess we better pull it that's my thinking so so just uh just for Devil's advocated for fun I'll bring back up the survey and what the survey the survey is not giving us the survey is basically calling us narcissist because the survey is saying 78% of our viewers think that that the church is heavily influenced by us and 22% almost a full quarter are saying that we're a narcissistic self-important piles of dung I know that's what they're saying exactly they're just saying no no I like I like John's characterization I think that's that's accurate that's how I feel about myself most days no but let's let's think about this so like what we're potentially inferring is that there's like some you know that there's basically people constantly monitoring the ex Morman Community know that that's true I think we know that's true but then like they're they're texting each other on a Friday night or Saturday morning it's like Nathan said something and now Rebecca oh Julia did the Tik Tok oh no Mormon stories is now about to cover it oh neemo we've got to fix this problem let's call the LDS living people LDS living people take that down we're about to get just totally slapped oh no you know hey gospel top you know missionary app people book of Morman app people get that down before like uh Monday in the Mormon stories thing and Nemo's about to drop his video like does that that doesn't sound really then but then don't take it down move it to another part of the app so that we can try and convince people like Nemo who's just too lovely and trusting that oh this is all just a big mistake you know I mean if it was nefarious it'd be a clever play for them to just move it elsewhere in the app because then they're not acting like they're ashamed of it or they've had to delete it or that they don't stand by it it can just be played off as well this is in the wrong place but they won't play off at all they just won't talk about it this will never be spoken about by the CH but it's kind of a Keystone Cops reaction because like don't they know we screenshot stuff and and didn't they didn't they think about this two months ago before they ever published the stuff to begin with like can we don't we know they don't think of stuff when they but if they're watching us they've been watching us for years which we we're assuming that they do eventually they're going to know how we think and how we're going to react to would change right isn't this kind of predictable wasn't this whole thing avoidable and pretty predictable well look at all the other changes that the church has made too I mean like um um second class L with Matt Harris like he talks about how like ex Mormons or people all Scholars they influenced the changes in the church and like they could have predicted some of those things like but they didn't I don't know I just I don't know well I think I they they are always playing a game of sort of calculating what impact or how we will react or how we will respond right we we I know that personally that that is a calculation that's made when they do certain things but the question is then if they did this having thought it through why when they got Thea the reaction that I assumed they would have expected did they go oh yeah they may have got a point we should take this down why did they REM because because it's not like the church to bow in this kind of way to pressure normally they would like come up with a different way of doing it or they would leave it for a while or whatever because like they don't want to be seen as they don't they don't want us to be able to even make the claim that that third question suggests which is that we are in some way in control of what they do at all yeah like it's very possible they put it all back up and act like yeah they didn't respond to us right they've done that before too right well we have the evidence that they did that there is a response or that they did take them down but they could just say oh there was an there was a caching problem on their web servers bring sanity to all this herard and you tell us what you think actually happened take us through your timeline of what you think happened yeah um I think you you work in it you manage websites you do graphic design right yeah um yeah I don't I don't think it would be super hard to get um you know the person at um like if this is something they were kind of doing as a pilot which I think doing it just on the Muka Mormon app suggests it was just a pilot and trying to see what the reaction was and then maybe I think you're right maybe they got they got must have gotten some interesting um uh feedback from Members when the LDS uh living article came out and then add to that the uh you know that we announced we were going to do the episode I think um it was um it just takes a call you know to the whoever is the head of the Book of Mormon app uh to just make make the change and it was literally just a text change you know remove what was there and copy back the other um um the the old introduction wouldn't take very long and and then calling the LDS living people um telling them to remove take that down but it it is true Nemo that the the sorry the daily universe is that article still up on the daily Universe okay so that one has not interesting that'd be interesting if they take that down yeah well you heard it here first sometimes a little bit more independent than yeah it's still the student like newspaper of the church's own University that's like properly micromanaged by the Brethren yeah he holds the per Nelson holds the purse strings yeah right as quoted by Holland all right so really quickly a couple comments I'll share you if you guys find any comments you want to share go ahead JMT writes don't get spooked John but I love the cing so there for more John delinting um Alyssa gallian says hit the like bu button folks I love that JC says John stop using the word narcissist regarding podcasters Julie is most accurate here what what does they mean Julia that you're I don't know specifically like whenever you when you did ask the question though you're like they're all telling us that we're narcissists in piles of dong I don't think that's what they were saying they were just saying that they disagreed with us okay okay wingman says I can tell John would be hilarious and entertaining to hang out with off stream I've hung out with him off stream can confirm that's not the case not true right I'm as boring as as a wet sock right right nope unless we're karaoke uh vocal lip says well I'd suggest not screaming a future topic but dropping it all in one day no teasers so do we screw up by like like herard we always have this battle of do we pre-veraison was like I should never have told John and hero and Julia that that living article was taken back maybe Nemo just won't share with us what he learns anymore Beck writes thanks herard Julia this is a Super Chat thanks Beck she writes thanks herard John Julia Nemo and and the Mormon Star podcast team keep up the good work I think this is a great episode I like this I'm proud of it I've had fun um oh here's one and I don't know if one of you guys banned David Cook but David Cook was in the chats writing things like I know the church is on track I know that the church answers all my questions never been hard to find out answers to anything wow he must be 18 years old all you have to do is ask David are you in my ward because that sounds like my ward um but my Ward's very rare like well I say my ward I don't have a ward anymore this is my first uh one since being excommunicated guys that's why I've been so spicy um it's been nice to see David in the chat though I mean for me like seeing an active member coming in holding their own and standing up and saying no I believe this I believe that because even if we think he's wrong about saying all you have to do is ask Etc I think the broader point of this episode is the church is no longer standing up and saying no we believe this if you ask you will get this answer this is what the Book of Mormon is it was you know 600 BC it was the jaredites it was all these things this is the church going oh let's make it more milk toast and make it more palatable for people and I think David's actually showing example of what the church was like and and what it's now failing to be is actually standing up and know know we believe these things this is actually what we believe and a fair play to him maybe the most important comment at all to respond to she became visible writes John you're bringing back the depression beard I love you facial hair this is not my depression beard this is my victory beard there's a difference the difference John the last beard Victory the difference is Victory the last beard was my depression beard this is my victory beard I'm not g to say anything else about thato to not say anything else about that you approve that decision herard yeah all right okay all right all right closing comments let's go Around the Horn uh herard you go first any closing comments you have to today's episode um closing comments uh just that this has been really fun and interesting to explore I think the uh seeing how the church is going to keep uh either changing or um you know rewriting the way they see um and uh interact with the Book of Mormon is going to be really interesting um I think uh we're right on point as far as like the Book of Mormon is sorry the the church is going to try to part ways from all the strange weird history stuff and the emphasize it and emphasize Jesus that seems to be the the pattern and yeah will be really interesting what happens in the future also uh something I was thinking this morning is the rapid growth of the church in Africa I was reading an article from uh the Des um I can't remember if it was the deser news or the church news but basically what they're saying is that the church was considered you know like this weird cult in Africa and it's been in recent years when they started being more embraced by Africa's population and I think he has a lot to do with this the emphasizing of the history and lonit and Nephites and Book of Mormon and and um and Joseph Smith and then just talking about Jesus and putting Jesus's picture in the logo and then just passing off as any other Christian nomination which has you know contributed to the church's growth and in in Africa I think a couple years ago there was an article in um the church's news talking about how the the top 10 um uh countries where the church is growing right now they're all African countries so um we we know that some of these countries are very heavily Christian um a lot of Christian um denominations have had lots of success in those countries so I it's not um it it it's not surprising that that's kind of what the church is trying to mimic all right Nemo thank you herard Nemo uh what do you think yeah I mean off the back of what herard just said I think it's interesting we're seeing the church shifting and becoming more like Hill songy and Evangelical I mean you've seen some of these concerts now that like the church is putting on for people and you see like senior missionary couples waving their arms in the air dancing and it's it's trippy like that's that's a a position that was actively rejected by the church when I was growing up um but they're changing I think to become more palatable to the places where they're seeing growth you know place they're not seeing growth Scotland the 2023 figures are in um at at the moment because the church has to report its official numbers to the UK government so Scotland shrunk by 7% membership and that's total membership that's not actually who's active who's not you know there's there's Ward closures incoming in Scotland very soon there have been some already like the church is shrinking in Europe it's shrinking uh in Britain particularly so I think herard is right that they they're trying to be more palatable to the place where they are still growing dude the church is shrinking in Salt Lake City right verardo yeah yeah verardo you were you were pulling you found out recently what about Karns which is a Salt Lake City suburb what' you find out hero yeah yesterday three uh three Stakes were closed in in um KS this is like Oz shutting you know what I mean like explain it to me like I'm British John what's Kars it's a it's a suburb of Salt Lake City okay like the the church is shrinking in Salt Lake City right right yeah three uh three state five Stakes were Consolidated into five in past weeks into two sorry five into two five into two yes and uh in past last week's members were getting text messages from their SEC uh word clerks telling them uh effective immediate you know the text would read something like effective immediately you all released from your callings oh word is longer no more and next Sunday you need to show up to this new oh my God this new word at this time and dang and nobody you know like they there was sometimes there wouldn't even be word conference or anything to reorganize a word they were just being told okay this is people from Kars uh okay this is the new word you need to show up at and then uh this last Sunday was when you know all the members from the Stak five Stakes show up to this special state conference and they're told well now there's no more five stakes in turns there's only going to be two and this is actually interesting because it was just um the Taylorville um Temple which is the temple that would all the stakes would uh be assigned to which is probably arguably one of the most beautiful temples that have been built in the Salt Lake County um and you know it was must have cost so much money it's right of I15 um just the details of that Temple are incredible the all the stakes are assigned to that Temple so dang holy cow Stakes are being close are one of the most recent uh temples that has been um uh dedicated in in the area well similarly Scotland's shrunk by s% they've just had a temple temp exactly I was just about to say that they closed the limmerick district in Ireland and they turned it all into one stake Dublin stake and now they're getting a Temple Birmingham got a temple and then they Clos litfield Stak which is right next to Birmingham Stak to make Birmingham steak bigger to try and make the temple serviceable like everywhere a State closes that's where a Temple's going to end up it seems this and it's ironic if you if you watch the documentary going clear on Scientology it ends basically saying the SC the Church of Scientology is shrinking in membership it's dying in membership but it's wealthier than ever and it's just become a real estate holding company with a lot of empty buildings and that's almost foreshadowing for what's happening to the Mormon Church in 2024 if you want to learn about other people's experiences in the Salt Lake area you can go to the Facebook um morm Ser Facebook there was a post made yesterday Yer about it and then there's a bunch of people commenting about their Stakes or their family stakes in the Salt Lake area that have either Clos or wors that have been merged in the last year or so Julie can Julie can put a link to that in the comments there's also um there's a a a subreddit on X Mormon Reddit called Mormon shrivel and people are always posting there the latest uh you know closed Ward or stake or Mission um in the church um we're talking about the church shrinking with giddiness and Glee I don't I actually if you talk to me when I'm not on a caffeinated Rampage I I don't get Glee from the church dying but I do think it's important context for this whole discussion why is the you know we really didn't put a fine point on this why is the church changing its introduction to its public facing Book of Mormon because its truth claims are under in increase scrutiny things that are googleable that cause serious problems challenging The Book of Mormons veracity including Tower of Babel Moroni uh uraman Thum Joseph Smith pal Myra Etc kamora and so the church is desperately trying to stop the hemorrhaging of people leaving the church or not being any having any interest in joining the church so they're playing with the Book of Mormon introduction to see if they can slow the hemorrhaging and or the death of its missionary efforts in the developed World Am I Wrong you're correct you are I'd say pretty much correct I don't like to say 100% correct John because I don't want to inflate your ego and I don't want to later regret the endorsement I love it um okay Julia did we give you a chance to give your final thoughts uh no I don't know that I have a whole lot more to add I will just say like I this question has been in my head and I don't know if it's valid but like um if if this was if this was on purpose and it wasn't they weren't it wasn't removed for for the a podcasters it wasn't our it wasn't us that helped them remove it but if it was on purpose because of the the daily universe and the living or LDS living um this was all this they meant to do all of this why did they remove it like this was like like you guys said they like in Africa they weren't growing and now they are growing because they're trying to be more Christian seeming or like more mainstream Christian that's what the that's what this new introduction is it's very like it's it's well formatted to be to be mainstream Christian it's it's easier to take in like it's easier to understand it like gets rid of all the history that's kind of messy on the stuff that's googleable like why did they take it out if it wasn't for us like why why remove it like these like it is it is a $250 billion dollar or plus organization they own these two things they own the Book of Mormon app like all these things why remove it and it make sense to me except that they they were embarrassed I guess that they they didn't like how they it was being shined on um they didn't like how I don't know I just I just wonder like why if not this if not us or if not the ex Mormon Community why did they remove that and will the LDS living article go back up as a response to this episode will the BYU daily Universe article be taken down will these changes be completely mothballed will the people that were behind them get in trouble and lose their jobs you know like uh to be to be seen or will we find out that we had nothing to do with any of this and like I said before we're just ambitious narcissists basically taking credit for things that we have nothing to do with as of this moment the LDS living article is down but the BYU article is still up still up all right well that's fun I glad I'm glad that we get these moments snapshotted for history right um really quickly a couple more comments colch cultural Hall is in the chats colch you do great work I just donated to cultural Hall recently because he does such good work so shout out to colch in the cultural Hall um Jeff says dan mclellen hasn't been excommunicated there must be some type of growing acceptance of non- literalism so that's no that's not he doesn't really talk about Mormonism though yeah um it's probably worth mentioning that Julie diavo Hanks recently post Instagram that um she's experiencing increased pressure and and uh harassment from her bishop and State president those are my words not hers um uh and that she's having to defend her membership and so that's another sign of of the Brethren losing their minds that they're trying to find a scapegoat for the hemorrhaging that they're experiencing can I just go on the record and say to exity unicate Julie Hanks it seems like that would be far more devastating than excommunicating me or Jeremy runnels or Natasha heler or Sam young do you guys think that that would be possibly way more devastating or Nemo that that that would be even way more devastating than previous excommunications what do you guys think I think so I think a lot of I think even a lot of active members know her name like I think they know who she is what were we gonna say her yeah most of our followings are members of the yeah yeah yeah I mean you know I I'm I had some popularity within believing members of the church you know uh but then there's there is a comment here um that I'll throw on screen real quick from some Millennium saying Nemo please get a job your extended family would love for you to actually work uh so you know there's there is some discontent in my extended family about what I currently do for a living and not everyone's happy about it but I think Julie Hanks is well loved and liked by a lot of active members um because her message is is the message that the church really should be giving to its you know to its members particularly its female members um and they're not so they're getting it from Judy Hanks instead the only reason the church have any reason to be jealous or angry or frustrated that people like her or are listening to her is because they're not providing that she wouldn't need to exist and do what she does if the church would just treat people better as an institution yeah well if she's getting excommunicated it's because she she's actually in the comments true oh if she's getting excommunicated it's because she's saying true things that the church will soon adopt but they have to excommunicate her before uh before they adopt her recommendations right just like you know so many other people isn't that the way it works yeah um wait is she in the comments yeah she's here what' she say she says hi I'm all ears my ears are ringing we love you Julie uh we hope the church leaves you alone yeah uh Nemo I don't know if you can agree but excommunication is not fun it sucks and it's easy to um under appreciate how hard it's gonna be is that yeah I had a lot of bravado going in and I I think I thought I was prepared but it doesn't stop it hurting it doesn't stop it being really difficult doesn't stop it being traumatic um so I wouldn't wish it on anyone and I you know I I was never gunning for it I never wanted it to happen but I thought I was ready for the fact that it probably would and it still hurt and sucked so you know don't do that to her please I was talking to people over the weekend that are like I want I want them to excommunicate Julie because it'll hurt the church and I just I don't know I do think it will hurt the church yeah but don't put Julie through that don't put yeah don't put Julie through that it hurts Julie um but but but it's it's the church self-inflicting a wound right like why would the church want to hurt itself like just stop excommunicating your truth tellers leave them alone and then you won't accelerate your demise I mean there there's there's a there's a conversation to be had about what the church views as helping itself and what the church views as a positive escalation of its goals versus what we would see it as so for example what we see is lots of people leaving and resigning and being upset the church sees people leaving and resigning all the time over so many different issues they don't necessarily perhaps connect the dots that excommunicating Julie will remove it or they view it as more important to retain their control than to keep the members that would leave if they excommunicated Julie for example right so it's it's about them balancing that cost so for them they they don't see themselves as kicking themselves in the nuts or however you want to view it they're not inflicting harm on themselves because ultimately they're upholding the Integrity of their institution by keeping their control by getting rid of the people at Julie who threaten that well I'm just I'm in a large screen myself and and say it yes Mormon church uh you will Ru the day you excommunicated Julie Hanks you will deeply regret it I warn you now back off Julie Hanks leave her alone uh because you will regret that day you will lose people likely in in far more numbers than you ever saw with Sam young Natasha Nemo Jeremy rynolds or myself you heard it here first on Mormon stories yeah but most importantly just stop punishing your truth tellers and your healers right just stop it you're only hurting yourself and and the the the people that are courageously doing what's right and I think the Mormon which I think is Nathan hinley he said it was says if they kick Julie out I'm leaving and I think that's Essen shared by tens or hundreds of thousands of people we'll we'll leave the church over that and and by the way it it every time someone it's like when when you know a gay person right and you're Mormon and then you become sympathetic to LGBT people then there's this ripple effect of all the people that know the LGBT person and loves them who leave well guess what Mormon church it's the same with people who apostatize the more people who apostas the more people who apostatize it is a domino effect it's a ripple effect so when you when you cause T thou tens of thousands of people to leave by kicking out Julie you're GNA cause even more people to leave and at that point The Book of Mormon is going to become a pamphlet right you'll have to take out so much of the Book of Mormon it won't even be a book anymore because you know that's what you're going to be doing to yourself yeah yeah there we are much love Julie stick to him we love you Julie thanks so much for the support uh I hope they leave you alone okay um uh just really quickly just a couple comments thanks to Susie uh Katherine she sent us a Super Chat thanks um thanks for the Super Chat also Joshua Alexander says so which Christian Church is the true one now berardo what's the answer which Christian church is true um I don't know I I haven't find it out yet Neo which Christian Church is true give him an answer well I know the Mormon Church isn't claiming to be it anymore maybe it's Community of Christ okay shout out CHR you guys Julia what's the true church I don't know I don't like when people ask that question because I'm just focused on the The Church of Jesus Christ that I to Saints I don't I don't that's I don't like that question R the guy says if I've learned anything about the Church of my years being in it they are never shy about moving the goalposts and acting like they never did that's wise thank you Ry the guy uh for that um let's see a couple other comments sandrew says the new introduction doesn't mention the church is trying to pretend he wasn't the founder at least when people first joined the church um I like that comment thank you for the Super Chat apostate Joe Smith says I give I give cines to feed your TAP book Book of Mormon currency yeah um I love that Ray Allen says when do you think the church WIll for the book of Abraham from the hand of Abraham they can't they're stuck Joseph Smith that Joseph Smith made that one so I don't well but doesn't that one say by the hand of Abraham isn't that one literally on written by the hand of Abraham a pal Papyrus yeah I don't think Joseph well I mean whatever yeah they can't change we've discussed uh you know I think a you know what's interesting it kind of mimics the title page from The Book of Mormon and the Book of Mormon's title page is supposed to be a translation of the of an actual PL I believe I mean I think I I think we've covered before that Arch apologist Terell given has recommended to the church that they take the book of AD Abraham out of its scriptures the whole thing it's the whole thing because it's dang yeah wow I mean I I don't disagree but that's really interesting Alyssa wants to know Alyssa wants to know if this is my victory Of Satan beard victory for Satan beard that would make it my Mormon beard and no it's not my Mormon beard it's definitely not a Mormon beard all right thanks for joining today Julia herard Nemo you all worked over the weekend to make this episode happen can we all give Nemo and Julia and herard a round of applause for charge me overtime I'll pay you guys overtime hours y'all are awesome Nemo thanks for joining us everybody please donate to Nemo the Mormon And subscribe to his YouTube channel uh subscribe to analyzing Mormonism donate to her as well or we'll just try to pay her well uh as she works for us otherwise I might have to do what my family want and get a real job Fardo how do people donate to you um donate to more myor stor space me for my time all right also just a reminder to everyone that the s discussion series we're 50 not n episodes in now at LDS discussions it starts from the very beginning of the church it goes in order analyzing its truth claims as honestly as dispassionately and as objectively as evidence-based as we can it will change your life if you um if you watch it as of yesterday last night somebody with tears in their eyes thanked me and and you know essentially thanked all of you and my in obena for what LDS discussions has done to their lives it's one of the things I'm most proud about in my 20 years doing Mormon stories check it out you can find it on LDS um on Spotify as its own Standalone podcast LDS discussions on uh apple apple podcast you can also find a a YouTube playlist for LDS discussions and it's also integrated into the Mormon stories um uh YouTube stream also huge thanks to Mike who's retired you can check out Aus discussions. for the text based version of his gift to us we won't tell you what he's doing now but he's doing cool work now um anything else before we end Nemo no just uh watch this space I haven't received um I haven't yet received a response for my appeal to my excommunication so I appealed it to the first presidency so we'll see what they come back and say um but watch this space for that we'll find out and get your tickets to thrive St George everyone because I'm going to be coming to America that's exciting Nemo's coming to St George Thrive I'll be there and me and John talked about that that's the end of Julio we should bring you to St George Thrive yeah when is that let's get ahead of that it's like early March like the first week March sure last weekend February early March and me and John floated the idea of doing like an evening with John dein and Nemo so let us know in the comments if that's something you would like to come and see we can get venardo why the fets do you never come to thrive what do you have against Thrive whyard I don't have anything against Thrive we'll come we'll come to the next one so we'll promise y'all if y'all support if y'all donate to Nemo the Mormon analyzing Mormonism Mormon stories and and sign up for Thrive we'll karaoke Julia herard Nemo and John will karaoke with with you at Thrive St George is that a fair promise have you ever Julia no and I don't think anyone wants to hear that that's not true that's not true anyway go to thrive Beyond religion.com we get no monetary compensation for Thrive it's an independent nonprofit that is not a profit thing but sign up for Thrive Julia you can Julie those in the not oration yeah um anyway thanks for joining us today herard any final words no no all Julia no we're good no okay everyone thanks for joining us I'm gonna go ahead and just really quickly put a link to thrive St George right now in the comments so y'all can register it sells out really quickly so I'm sure it'll be sold out um rela if it's not already that's saying we should do a separate event afterwards John we should we should we should try something yeah and of course we're gonna Nemo here to Salt Lake City yeah and we're gonna schedule some sort of meet Nemo Q&A with Nemo hug Nemo give Nemo money like support Nemo you don't want hugs Nemo is that we'll have a discussion about personal space later John all right Nemo coming to to to Salt Lake you know in a we week near you all right yeah thanks everybody take care be good to each other be kind to each other check out LDS discussions and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon stories podcast thanks guys take care